Forum: Author Hangout

Why should we bother answering any questions from this OP...

Sorry, didn't realize it was the same person. I was just answering a question.

Sorry, didn't realize it was the same person.

That isn't hard to do since the plagiarists penname starts with sorrowful. Do you think that this idiot is so lacking in creativity that he had to steal and modify the real author's penname also?

sorrowfulvirgin27 as the penname of the real author

That is the penname he used on the other site where he posted the story.

That isn't hard to do since the plagiarists penname starts with sorrowful.

I actually didn't pay attention to WHO the OP was. I just read the question and answered. After checking, I found I also answered another post by this penname about a story idea.

Usually the only time I look at who is posting is if they start ranting.

Sorry, didn't realize it was the same person. I was just answering a question.

I did the same thing, but once I realized it was the same person, I immediately deleted my 'friendly' response. I agree with the others about not encouraging him in any way. Doing that is like inviting a drug addict into your house and then pointing out where you keep all your money and valuables, before telling him when you'll be out of the house. It's a recipe for disaster.

Then don't reply and don't keep going to other thread trying to start crap maybe?

The thread doesn't matter to me. You started the crap by posting another author's story and claiming it to be yours. You have been proven to be a plagiarist and the real authors in this Forum don't like plagiarists. Go find some other site to hang out at and stay away from us.

-- or just 1-bombed by the readers who are also getting tired of this and of plagiarism

Two things:

You can't 1-bomb a story that has been removed from the site because of plagiarism.

Most of the site's readers don't participate in the Forum. They don't know sorrowdays127 is a plagiarist. They will score the story on its contents, not on the illegal activities of the person who posted it.

Personally, I hate thieves and have no desire to associate with one. If the rest of you wish to respond to this thief in a positive manner, then I feel you will be supporting his illegal activities. One of his goals was attention in the form of us acknowledging him for writing a good story. Communicating with him - gives him what he is looking for. I say tell him to get lost and then stop responding.

Shunned - tarred and feathered - hung up by his intestines. Difficult choices.

Why make a choice? All of the above sounds reasonable to me. If you need something more severe, how about using a scalpel to skin his hands, feet, and/or cock and balls?

I wanted to do that but felt a link was necessary. If you read the linked content, it specifically defines the penalties and financial breakpoint between different levels of sentencing.

I've encountered people who don't know plagiarism is a crime or realize the severity of the crime. Copyright violation is the polite term for stealing intellectual property. This guy may not have realized the severity of his actions, but they weren't a minor mistake. I doubt that he will just go away and I doubt anything we say to him will make him go away.

Perhaps no one responding to any of his posts would work, but most of us find that hard to do. We want to be reasonable to a person who is not reasonable.

but now I suggest you throw away all electronic devices and forget stories

I suggest you switch to the more honest grand larceny (at least you aren't trying to pretend to be someone honorable). That way, hopefully someone will shoot you in the face and we'll be done with your lies!

Is that worded strongly enough for you, sejintenej?

I've never written fanfic, where most of the characters belong to someone else's work, and is a clear copyright violation which is allowed by the original authors as long as they don't steal whole stories outright (or change the direction of the story universe).

For other works, it really doesn't matter what 'inspires' a story if you don't borrow story elements (characters, text, descriptions, etc.). However, I always credit anyone who provided background information in my stories, and I now provide complete source information for each of my epigraphs.

In short, it doesn't matter where you get inspiration from, as long as the story (the actual words and characters) are yours.

However, nothing sorrowful has said so far indicates his has the slightest guilt for what he did, nor that he actually plans to write stories himself. Instead, he's merely looking for 'how much he can steal before he'll get in trouble'. That's akin to someone found guilty of grand larceny promising he'll only steal 'small cars' instead of SUV's from now on.

Would that mean, according to your definition, that J. K. Rowling is not guilty of the allegations some make about her writing?

Most of J. K. Rowling's criticisms, once you filter out the initial 'first response' rants, boil down to the fact that she's not very adept as using many typical writing techniques. I've never seen any serious accusations of 'borrowing' story ideas beyond vague generalities between different stories.

What I find more offensive than Rowling's similar treatments, is when a name brand franchise resorts to outright character repositioning, such as the racially tinged Jar Jar Binks in the Star Wars trilogy. Not only was the character offensive, but it was an attempt to get an easy laugh based upon racial stereotypes rather than creating a genuine character.

Would that mean, according to your definition, that J. K. Rowling is not guilty of the allegations some make about her writing?

Plenty of authors have written stories about boy wizards, so I think JK Rowling is okay on this one.

I think Dan Brown's Da Vinci Code definitely fails - he even used the same character names - but incredibly the legal system decided he was innocent of plagiarism.

AJ

What is the proper term for someone who takes the 'raw mess' of a story as presented by an individual and turns it into something that is an actual story?

Say an individual has an idea for a story and writes a rough draft that has a good premise and plot, but is practically unreadable. This person sends it to someone to 'clean up' who ends up doing a lot of work to make it readable, basically re-writing the story without changing the premise or plot. All of the characters remain unchanged unless it is almost impossible for them to be as originally written (9 year old with 8 year old sibling but mother is only 18? Not likely!). Their activities follow he same plot, Same interactions, etc.

Also, how should the story initiator credit said individual if they post the story?

That aside, I agree with you, there's nothing the editor can do if the author refuses to give him credit as a co-author.

There is one thing the editor could do. Quit working for the SOB.

This person sends it to someone to 'clean up' who ends up doing a lot of work to make it readable, basically re-writing the story without changing the premise or plot.

You obviously missed this part of my post. The 'original writer' (OW) asked for the help, knowing their version wasn't very good.

I am thinking this is may have not been clear enough.

Also, how should the story initiator credit said individual if they post the story?

The editor sends the OW the 'revised' story. How, if at all, should the OW credit the editor if they (the OW) posts the story?

I reckon the editor deserves co-author acknowledgement (and its credit towards earned premier member status). Whether there is any legal right probably depends on how much original content was supplied by the editor.

AJ

Thank you and all the others who replied to my question. It does seem to me that the 'editor' should get co-author billing. I will suggest it and see what kind of response I get.

Thank you and all the others who replied to my question. It does seem to me that the 'editor' should get co-author billing. I will suggest it and see what kind of response I get.

Author provide creative input, editors provide cleaning up. Editors should get some billing in a foreword or the end note here at SoL, FS, SciFi but they shouldn't be listed as a coauthor unless they provided some of the creative input.

For example, I did a lot to assist with the editing and clean up of The Scot's stories prior to posting them for him, Winds of Change is one where I did A lot of work, but I'm not listed as a co-author because I didn't provide any creative input. While with Shiloh I did a lot of editing on the first half then wrote the second half of the story, so I'm a co-author due to adding creative input.

With Cazna's works I assisted in the story and plot development then wrote the action scenes for, but I initially fought being listed as a co-author because I wanted to keep our works separate at that time. Heck most of his stories are based on plot ideas I had and he ran with, while the rest I helped developed the actual story.

Author provide creative input, editors provide cleaning up. Editors should get some billing in a foreword or the end note here at SoL, FS, SciFi but they shouldn't be listed as a coauthor unless they provided some of the creative input.

For published works, the key is to include editors in the "Acknowledgment" section. The one thing you don't do is to add them as "editors" when you list the 'basic book information', as then they'll receive equal credit for the story, making it difficult for anyone to find your book, since it lists five or six different authors! That input field is mainly for translators, who get equal credit with the original author, rather than those who helped 'clean up' the finished product, as per Ernest's excellent summary of creative content.

The editor sends the OW the 'revised' story. How, if at all, should the OW credit the editor if they (the OW) posts the story?

For ghostwriters who aren't required to sign confidentiality statements, they're simply credited as 'co-authors'. However, under no account should they be listed as an 'editor', since they're writing the majority of the story aside from a few generic 'ideas' for plot. Once again, 'copyright' is mostly about the actual words on the page, irrespective of who's original 'idea' they were. However, with most ghostwriters, they assume they'll receive second billing, since it's the celebrity name which is selling their books for them.

To make a distinction between editor, co-author, and ghostwriter without any of us have seen the actual work is nothing but a wild guess.

Maybe, but those are all acknowledged terms in the publishing industry, as most people in the field know precisely what they entail.

Basically, ghostwriters are excellent writers, but generally couldn't write a best-seller if their lives depended on it. The most successful ghost writers, however, command top dollar to do ALL the writing, simply so the various celebrity no-nothings can claim all the credit. Again, in many of these cases, especially with various movie stars writing 'children's books', the celebrities have little to do with the actual finished product besides signing their names.

However, if we're talking about 'non-native authors' needing someone to 'clean-up' their writing to make it sound authentic, then we're talking about a traditional author/editor relationship, which is a separate matter entirely. But that's not what was originally presented.

I would call it plagiarism if the person who rewrote the story does not have the consent of the creator of the raw mess to post their version. There are no exceptions, no matter how unreadable the version created by the copyright holder may be.

Ghostwriters often 'sign away' their accreditation rights, although they're often free to claim credit for writing it, even if their names aren't on the books (as happened to Trump's many books).

What is the proper term for someone who takes the 'raw mess' of a story as presented by an individual and turns it into something that is an actual story?

Also, how should the story initiator credit said individual if they post the story?

The term for that is 'ghost writer', as they're essentially writing the ENTIRE story for you, since the original 'source' is largely unusable in most instances. Also, in most instances where someone uses a ghost writer (i.e. celebrities who have no clue how to write), you pay extra for them to remain silent, as few celebs want anyone to know their books aren't their own creation.

He has an 'author's page' on SOL under his pen name sorrowfullvirgin27. So far, he posted a poem and a fanfic story in progress. That's more than just an indication of his plans ... at least if his postings aren't plagiarisms again.

If that's the direction he's moving in, then I commend him for making an honest effort, but based on his comments here on the forum, he hasn't seem remorseful for what he did at all. Maybe that's because he still doesn't grasp why copyright theft is wrong, but it won't generate him the sympathy he's seeking.

Whenever someone faces scandal, the best strategy to to face up to it, admit you screwed up, weather the storm with you head held high, and get back to doing what you should be doing. What always sinks people, is when they continually deny that they ever did anything wrong, that their critics are just 'vengeful opportunists', and they never admit any culpability and they never make the slightest attempt to make amends (to their behavior, not financial compensation).

Has anyone here specifically acknowledged the contributions by others in a story they have posted here?

There are quite a few stories on here with the attribute of 'inspired by cmsix'

There are quite a few stories on here with the attribute of 'inspired by cmsix'

Again, if you lift the whole basic plot, with few changes, then even if you use your own words, you're dancing very close to legal jeopardy. However, if you write a story that's similar, dealing with the same themes in a similar situations, then you're generally in the clear.

It's akin to when someone reads a do-over story and thinks 'Damn, I could write something better than that!' No one can copyright concepts. They didn't 'invent' the do-over concept, they simply borrowed from others before them. However, what distinguishes authors is what they can do with a given subject. Copying text, characters or plot points is just plain lazy writing, as you're admitting that you really don't care about coming up with you own story.

But, if you take a similar situation, add unique characters, give them real, engaging personalities and present them with new challenges, you're well on your way to create great (or at least really good) art.

Once again, it's mostly a matter of personal pride. Do you see yourself as a 'creator', or do you merely want to 'get something' with the least effort imaginable.

Thieves are notoriously lazy, which is why you have so little crime when the weather turns, since the criminals all stay indoors because it's too damn hard going out. It's also why you have so few 'novel' types of master criminals, because they simply don't put that much thought into anything they do. They just grab whatever they can reach whenever the opportunity presents itself.

The few times someone does add an 'inspired by', it's largely where they 'borrow' the basic plot up to a particular point, and then branch out from there. In that case, it's like fan fiction, it's OK, but only as long as the original author doesn't object and report your for stealing their work.

In short, writing is damn hard work. There really aren't any shortcuts. In porn, in whichever variety, you can squeeze by with stereotypical or cardboard characters and no one will really care, but if you write more than a couple of chapters, people are going to want more depth, even if it's merely a stroke story. They want to know what attracts the one person to the other, what they're getting out of the relationship, how long it'll last, whether the characters are being honest with each other.

Those looking for easy ways to write had better consider working in an third-world telemarketing firm.

It is legitimate for an author to take a central idea from one source and use that to create a new story with new characters and setting. Our ideas do not come out of a vacuum, whether or not we are aware of the source of our inspiration. But what should an author do if they are aware of the source of their inspiration?

There are 2 aspects here I'll address.

1. A story inspired by another author.

Yes, you can do this, and you should mention the source of the inspiration. However, make sure you have that right and you're not just writing within the same genre as another author.

Revenge for the School is inspired by, and extension of a story by another author. That is recognised in the story description and the original author stated.

Times of Old is in the same genre as a few other authors, but it wasn't inspired by any of them so no mention is made there, despite what some people thinks about it.

2. Doing a story on the same theme as another story.

Yes, it is possible to take the same theme as another story and write a completely different story on that theme. The two stories Teacher's Pets and Teacher's Education were both inspired by an email with a basic concept mentioned at the start of the story, and they both start with the same story start. However, after the start outlining the story set up they are two very different stories displaying two very different ways the same basic set up can go. There are several other ways the same set up can be used to write other stories as well.

Thus it is possible to take a basic concept from another story and write a completely different story from it.

1. A story inspired by another author.

These would be the type I referred to as 'inspired by cmsix' (Which unfortunately tend to end up with his other 'inspiration' of being incomplete). Time Travel with help from an alien where you create a shopping list, etc, etc.

2. Doing a story on the same theme as another story.
...
Thus it is possible to take a basic concept from another story and write a completely different story from it.

I agree, although not necessarily from another story.

Oyster50 presented a first chapter for 'Overboard' which he opened up for others to uses as a basis for their own stories. Two writers took him up on the offer and wrote, in my opinion, excellent stories.

Someone who edits a diary can be an author, even though the thoughts he selects are not his own.

As Anne Frank's father learned the hard way, you are only an editor (of a biography) as long a you don't add any original content (i.e. invent completely fictional things to promote your own viewpoints). If you do, then you're officially a 'co-author', at best. At worst, you're a manipulator of facts hoping to gain on the suffering of others! (Otto Frank, spit, spit) The man should have been drawn and quartered!

Original content makes you an author, cleaning up the language makes you an author.

What you're probably thinking of are biographers (as opposed to autobiographers. An autobiography is a biography written by the person involved. A biography is a history written by a researcher, and they always claim author credit, despite who the story is about.

An author can edit, but when they do, they're listed as 'editors', not the works original author. Once again, copyright mostly protests the words themselves, not the ideas portrayed, as ideas are not copyrightable.

Your example of historians is also off-base, as historians are traditionally considered authors of non-fiction, rather than fictional authors! 'D

It wasnt even about the premier thing when i posted that story i actully wanted to continue it and i hve been able to find the autor or the orig story for several years so i was going to clean it up cut it into chapters

That story is as bogus as your writing skills in that convoluted sentence. If that were true, you'd clearly post 'Story originally written by', or at least ask the site Admins whether it was permissible to post someone else's work under your own name (the clear answer, on ANY site, is a clear "NO!".

Even now, you've never once offered any desire to write something of your own, instead you keep asking how you can 'politely' steal even more works of others.

Frankly, you can go to hell. And trust me, with your lack of skill, basic competence and desire for the easy way out, we'll spot you wherever you may try to hide!