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Would this count as plagiarism?

sorrowdays127

Not sure if you would know or not but if you get an idea from say a adult manga and write it into a written story but throw your own twist character names places ages and other ideas does it count as plagiarism or do you think I would be good? The only thing I would be using would be one idea from it and twisting it and the story into my own twisted idea?

Replies:   Capt. Zapp
Capt. Zapp

@sorrowdays127

Plagiarism is literary theft and occurs when a writer duplicates another writer's language or ideas and then calls the work his or her own.
http://www.dictionary.com/browse/plagiarism

What you seem to be describing is taking an idea and writing your own story based on that idea, not duplicating the original story.

Its been said that every possible story theme there is has already been written and that any new stories are just variations of those themes.

Ross at Play

Why should we bother answering any questions from this OP after the webmaster made this post on the 'How long until I go premier' thread they also started?

Lazeez Jiddan (Webmaster) 4/14/2018, 12:39:14 AM

@Dominions Son: I don't know if Lazeez would be willing to make the details of the complaint public or provide more detail on why he decided it was plagiarism.

The original author of the actual text came forward and proved his ownership beyond a doubt.

Replies:   Capt. Zapp
sorrowdays127

Then don't reply and don't keep going to other thread trying to start crap maybe? If you wanna answer then do so but If all your interested in is causing strife then go on ps4 and go play COD! Have a nice day

Replies:   REP
sorrowdays127

Sorry lol I've had a rough week and I'm not in the mood for people trying to cause trouble

REP

@sorrowdays127

Then don't reply and don't keep going to other thread trying to start crap maybe?


The thread doesn't matter to me. You started the crap by posting another author's story and claiming it to be yours. You have been proven to be a plagiarist and the real authors in this Forum don't like plagiarists. Go find some other site to hang out at and stay away from us.

Ross at Play

@REP

@sorrowdays127
... You have been proven to be a plagiarist and the real authors in this Forum don't like plagiarists.

Thank you for your support, REP.

I note that the thrust of this OP is how little is needed to avoid plagiarism. I would suggest coming up with an original idea is a better place to start.

robberhands

@REP

You have been proven to be a plagiarist and the real authors in this Forum don't like plagiarists.

Shunned - tarred and feathered - hung up by his intestines. Difficult choices.

Replies:   madnige  REP
madnige

@robberhands

@REP

You have been proven to be a plagiarist and the real authors in this Forum don't like plagiarists.

Shunned - tarred and feathered - hung up by his intestines. Difficult choices.


-- or just 1-bombed by the readers who are also getting tired of this and of plagiarism, especially when it's been lightly concealed by a few name changes. This just adds a bit more of a whiff to the smell from other posts giving me the distinct impression that the OP is looking for a free-and-easy route to premier membership (by text volume * score, which 1-bombs will kill); I'm going to follow the route advised elsewhere when I get round to it.

With the OP being a known plagiarist perhaps concerned readers could use this method on other/further postings by the OP and flag up any more instances to the webmaster.

Replies:   REP
REP

@madnige

-- or just 1-bombed by the readers who are also getting tired of this and of plagiarism


Two things:

You can't 1-bomb a story that has been removed from the site because of plagiarism.

Most of the site's readers don't participate in the Forum. They don't know sorrowdays127 is a plagiarist. They will score the story on its contents, not on the illegal activities of the person who posted it.

Personally, I hate thieves and have no desire to associate with one. If the rest of you wish to respond to this thief in a positive manner, then I feel you will be supporting his illegal activities. One of his goals was attention in the form of us acknowledging him for writing a good story. Communicating with him - gives him what he is looking for. I say tell him to get lost and then stop responding.

Capt. Zapp

@Ross at Play

Why should we bother answering any questions from this OP...

Sorry, didn't realize it was the same person. I was just answering a question.

Replies:   REP  Crumbly Writer
REP

@Capt. Zapp

Sorry, didn't realize it was the same person.


That isn't hard to do since the plagiarists penname starts with sorrowful. Do you think that this idiot is so lacking in creativity that he had to steal and modify the real author's penname also?

Replies:   robberhands  Capt. Zapp
robberhands

@REP

If you're referring to sorrowfulvirgin27 as the penname of the real author, I don't think that's the real author's penname either.

Replies:   REP
Capt. Zapp

@REP

That isn't hard to do since the plagiarists penname starts with sorrowful.


I actually didn't pay attention to WHO the OP was. I just read the question and answered. After checking, I found I also answered another post by this penname about a story idea.

Usually the only time I look at who is posting is if they start ranting.

sorrowdays127

Wow one mistake and your shunned by the entire community reminds me of a lot of things currently happening in the world so I posted 1 story that want mine I should've known better but Sue me for being a fan of that story I wanted to continue it but couldn't find him ooh BTW sorrowfulvirgin27 I'd me if your referring to xnxx also I'm currently making something known I apologize I made a mistake doing what I did and I'm sorry also in trying to rectify it I apologize personally to the author and to be honest it was just genuine curiosity about premier things you want me to leave the site not happening until I get booted by the webmaster and seeing as I'm not currently bring any rules and have plans not to it stands for reason I'm not going anywhere so give me a break and give me a chance who knows if you actually read the first chapter of my story instead of complaining you might find you actually like the idea even though it needs editing

Capt. Zapp

@sorrowdays127

Wow one mistake and your shunned by the entire community reminds me of a lot of things currently happening in the world so I posted 1 story that want mine I should've known better


Trust is something that, once lost, is almost impossible to get back.

Ross at Play

@sorrowdays127

I should've known better but Sue me for being a fan of that story I wanted to continue it but couldn't find him

That explanation is inconsistent with you trying to get premier membership by posting a story written by someone else.

Replies:   sorrowdays127
sorrowdays127

@Ross at Play

It wasnt even about the premier thing when i posted that story i actully wanted to continue it and i hve been able to find the autor or the orig story for several years so i was going to clean it up cut it into chapters edit it and repost them and then continue it but like i said i was wrong in the regard and i do apolagize but now im currently writing my own unique story and i would love for you all to come and read it a/n its very rough i have just finished editing it and reposting it so i dont know how ong it will be until it gets reposted but id like to that the person who helped DavidK I appreciate your help and everone elses as well

REP

@robberhands

sorrowfulvirgin27 as the penname of the real author


That is the penname he used on the other site where he posted the story.

Replies:   sorrowdays127
sorrowdays127

@REP

Like ive said that is my orig username from literotica and xnxx and i can prove it if you have an xnxx account

Replies:   sorrowdays127
sorrowdays127

@sorrowdays127

but it doesn't actually matter anyways so its no harm no foul at least to me its done and over with and im currently writing my own series

paliden

@sorrowdays127

Wow one mistake and your shunned


No, what you did was outright theft.

You should be banned from SOL but that would be ineffective because membership is free.

Ross at Play

@sorrowdays127

I appreciate your help and everone elses as well

I suggest you try to learn the basics of the English language before asking others to help you. You obviously have no idea about things as elementary as using full stops, commas, apostrophes, and capital letters. I doubt anyone will be willing to help you if you cannot be bothered attempting to learn such things for yourself.

REP

@robberhands

Shunned - tarred and feathered - hung up by his intestines. Difficult choices.


Why make a choice? All of the above sounds reasonable to me. If you need something more severe, how about using a scalpel to skin his hands, feet, and/or cock and balls?

REP

It is useless to reason with a person who says copy right violation is a little mistake. The last time I checked, in the US his little mistake has the potential of putting him in prison a maximum of one year and being fined a maximum of $100,000. If the value of the stolen story is more than a specified minimum, the imprisonment and fine can be greater.

https://www.justice.gov/usam/criminal-resource-manual-1852-copyright-infringement-penalties-17-usc-506a-and-18-usc-2319

Replies:   sejintenej
sejintenej
Updated:

@REP


his little mistake has the potential of putting him in prison a maximum of one year and being fined a maximum of $100,000.


REP; not arguing with the facts but in these circumstances I suggest that you could have put the frighteners on him a bit harder.

You could have written that he "could get one year in prison plus $100,000 fine or even far more".

"could" implies that the penalties c a n be less but he wouldn't think of that immediately, with the additional "far more" covering the possibility of the excess value of the story. Politeness usually but this case and the follow up go beyond "normally" so make him shit his pants (apologies to anyone not ready for basic terms)

Replies:   REP
REP

@sejintenej

I wanted to do that but felt a link was necessary. If you read the linked content, it specifically defines the penalties and financial breakpoint between different levels of sentencing.

I've encountered people who don't know plagiarism is a crime or realize the severity of the crime. Copyright violation is the polite term for stealing intellectual property. This guy may not have realized the severity of his actions, but they weren't a minor mistake. I doubt that he will just go away and I doubt anything we say to him will make him go away.

Perhaps no one responding to any of his posts would work, but most of us find that hard to do. We want to be reasonable to a person who is not reasonable.

Dominions Son

@sorrowdays127

I wanted to continue it but couldn't find him


Doing that without written permission from the original author is illegal unless the story is old enough for the copyright to have expired.

Doing it without explicitly acknowledging the original author (even if you had permission) makes you an untrustworthy asshole.

sejintenej

Sorry but I don't want my days to be sorrowdays.

Jack Spratt came up with a ready supply of comments received from others which really apply here. I quote just a few:

Acting like a dick doesn't make yours any longer

Everyone is entitled to be stupid, but you abuse the privilege.

(Note that I have given such attributions as are available to me and have merely used two out of ninety two examples)

If you would have stopped immediately you were informed of the legal ramifications then all could have been well - you could have written your own story and posted it but now I suggest you throw away all electronic devices and forget stories

Replies:   Crumbly Writer
Crumbly Writer

@Capt. Zapp

Sorry, didn't realize it was the same person. I was just answering a question.

I did the same thing, but once I realized it was the same person, I immediately deleted my 'friendly' response. I agree with the others about not encouraging him in any way. Doing that is like inviting a drug addict into your house and then pointing out where you keep all your money and valuables, before telling him when you'll be out of the house. It's a recipe for disaster.

Crumbly Writer

@sorrowdays127

It wasnt even about the premier thing when i posted that story i actully wanted to continue it and i hve been able to find the autor or the orig story for several years so i was going to clean it up cut it into chapters

That story is as bogus as your writing skills in that convoluted sentence. If that were true, you'd clearly post 'Story originally written by', or at least ask the site Admins whether it was permissible to post someone else's work under your own name (the clear answer, on ANY site, is a clear "NO!".

Even now, you've never once offered any desire to write something of your own, instead you keep asking how you can 'politely' steal even more works of others.

Frankly, you can go to hell. And trust me, with your lack of skill, basic competence and desire for the easy way out, we'll spot you wherever you may try to hide!

Replies:   robberhands
Crumbly Writer

@sejintenej

but now I suggest you throw away all electronic devices and forget stories

I suggest you switch to the more honest grand larceny (at least you aren't trying to pretend to be someone honorable). That way, hopefully someone will shoot you in the face and we'll be done with your lies!

Is that worded strongly enough for you, sejintenej?

Replies:   sejintenej
robberhands
Updated:

@Crumbly Writer

Frankly, you can go to hell. And trust me, with your lack of skill, basic competence and desire for the easy way out, we'll spot you wherever you may try to hide!


https://storiesonline.net/a/sorrowfullvirgin27

That's not exactly hiding, is it?

Tharos
Updated:

Speaking as the original author of the story that was plagiarised by yourself Sorrow...after I found out that you posted on Literotica (now removed as well), I spent some time looking for other sites. Literally, twenty seconds on google and the top two or three search listings had the story. The top was the completed text, posted by another user, but more importantly it acknowledged myself as the Author by putting in two simple words - By Tharos.

Granted you certainly gained my attention but if there is nothing you have said in this thread is credible. For starters, you wanted to 'clean it up' and 'cut it into chapters', your post on Literotica was in 2012 what the hell were you waiting for before you posted here?

Oh, also, not one place I ever posted to was in one mass of text. Each and every thread contained an individual chapter posting beginning with the 'Chapter #' and ending with 'To be Continued/concluded'

You liked my story, fine. You weren't the only one, this story had a fan that I got to know well. She invited me over for a visit (first time in the US for me), we went to San Diego Comiccon in 2005 where we saw the pilot episodes of Supernatural, Bones and Threshold (good god that had so much potential but royally sucked).

...okay, losing plot here.

This was one of thirteen stories I wrote as Roswell fanfic, posted on fanfic sites mainly because everyone there knew the show. I didn't need to go into the backstory too often. However, each and every story came with a disclaimer that I did not own the characters...hell you didn't even put that in!

No acknowledgement of me

No information posted that said it was a repost

No info that suggested you were looking for me for any reason.

NO disclaimer for story origins, namely the 1999-2001 show Roswell

And above all, I checked the comments made on the Literotica posting - you were damned well taking credit for the lot.

That is what makes a work plagiarised.

By the way, editing is progressing. I'm up to page 325, should have all 30 chapters ready by some time next month.

Tharos

And to everyone else who has posted on this subject matter. Many, many thanks.

sejintenej

@Crumbly Writer

That way, hopefully someone will shoot you in the face and we'll be done with your lies!

Is that worded strongly enough for you, sejintenej?


Yeah, that'll do.
Did you have a black kerchief on your head as you wrote? ;-(

Ross at Play

I think we've all had our say now on what we think about the past actions of the poster of the OP. Can we now consider what they asked this time? I think the question in the OP is legitimate and warrants a considered answer.

It is legitimate for an author to take a central idea from one source and use that to create a new story with new characters and setting. Our ideas do not come out of a vacuum, whether or not we are aware of the source of our inspiration. But what should an author do if they are aware of the source of their inspiration?

(As appalling bad as his English is) it appears the OP is trying to do the right thing this time. He is trying to write an original story, recognises he's using a central idea that came from a manga magazine, and is asking for confirmation if that is okay.

My answer would be it is okay but he should acknowledge in some way the creator of the idea he has taken from another source. I'd suggest including a brief comment at the top of the first chapter.

Has anyone here specifically acknowledged the contributions by others in a story they have posted here? Could you provide links so others can see how you did that?

Crumbly Writer

@Ross at Play

I've never written fanfic, where most of the characters belong to someone else's work, and is a clear copyright violation which is allowed by the original authors as long as they don't steal whole stories outright (or change the direction of the story universe).

For other works, it really doesn't matter what 'inspires' a story if you don't borrow story elements (characters, text, descriptions, etc.). However, I always credit anyone who provided background information in my stories, and I now provide complete source information for each of my epigraphs.

In short, it doesn't matter where you get inspiration from, as long as the story (the actual words and characters) are yours.

However, nothing sorrowful has said so far indicates his has the slightest guilt for what he did, nor that he actually plans to write stories himself. Instead, he's merely looking for 'how much he can steal before he'll get in trouble'. That's akin to someone found guilty of grand larceny promising he'll only steal 'small cars' instead of SUV's from now on.

Capt. Zapp

@Ross at Play

Has anyone here specifically acknowledged the contributions by others in a story they have posted here?


There are quite a few stories on here with the attribute of 'inspired by cmsix'

Replies:   Crumbly Writer
Crumbly Writer

@Capt. Zapp

There are quite a few stories on here with the attribute of 'inspired by cmsix'

Again, if you lift the whole basic plot, with few changes, then even if you use your own words, you're dancing very close to legal jeopardy. However, if you write a story that's similar, dealing with the same themes in a similar situations, then you're generally in the clear.

It's akin to when someone reads a do-over story and thinks 'Damn, I could write something better than that!' No one can copyright concepts. They didn't 'invent' the do-over concept, they simply borrowed from others before them. However, what distinguishes authors is what they can do with a given subject. Copying text, characters or plot points is just plain lazy writing, as you're admitting that you really don't care about coming up with you own story.

But, if you take a similar situation, add unique characters, give them real, engaging personalities and present them with new challenges, you're well on your way to create great (or at least really good) art.

Once again, it's mostly a matter of personal pride. Do you see yourself as a 'creator', or do you merely want to 'get something' with the least effort imaginable.

Thieves are notoriously lazy, which is why you have so little crime when the weather turns, since the criminals all stay indoors because it's too damn hard going out. It's also why you have so few 'novel' types of master criminals, because they simply don't put that much thought into anything they do. They just grab whatever they can reach whenever the opportunity presents itself.

The few times someone does add an 'inspired by', it's largely where they 'borrow' the basic plot up to a particular point, and then branch out from there. In that case, it's like fan fiction, it's OK, but only as long as the original author doesn't object and report your for stealing their work.

In short, writing is damn hard work. There really aren't any shortcuts. In porn, in whichever variety, you can squeeze by with stereotypical or cardboard characters and no one will really care, but if you write more than a couple of chapters, people are going to want more depth, even if it's merely a stroke story. They want to know what attracts the one person to the other, what they're getting out of the relationship, how long it'll last, whether the characters are being honest with each other.

Those looking for easy ways to write had better consider working in an third-world telemarketing firm.

Ernest Bywater

@Ross at Play

It is legitimate for an author to take a central idea from one source and use that to create a new story with new characters and setting. Our ideas do not come out of a vacuum, whether or not we are aware of the source of our inspiration. But what should an author do if they are aware of the source of their inspiration?


There are 2 aspects here I'll address.

1. A story inspired by another author.

Yes, you can do this, and you should mention the source of the inspiration. However, make sure you have that right and you're not just writing within the same genre as another author.

Revenge for the School is inspired by, and extension of a story by another author. That is recognised in the story description and the original author stated.

Times of Old is in the same genre as a few other authors, but it wasn't inspired by any of them so no mention is made there, despite what some people thinks about it.

2. Doing a story on the same theme as another story.

Yes, it is possible to take the same theme as another story and write a completely different story on that theme. The two stories Teacher's Pets and Teacher's Education were both inspired by an email with a basic concept mentioned at the start of the story, and they both start with the same story start. However, after the start outlining the story set up they are two very different stories displaying two very different ways the same basic set up can go. There are several other ways the same set up can be used to write other stories as well.

Thus it is possible to take a basic concept from another story and write a completely different story from it.

Replies:   Capt. Zapp
Ross at Play

@Crumbly Writer

it really doesn't matter what 'inspires' a story if you don't borrow story elements (characters, text, descriptions, etc.).

I understand the distinction you are making. Thanks.

Would that mean, according to your definition, that J. K. Rowling is not guilty of the allegations some make about her writing?

robberhands

@Ross at Play

Copyright protects the tangible form of the expression of an idea, not the idea that underlies that expression. That's often stated as a distinction between copyright and patent.

robberhands
Updated:

@Crumbly Writer

However, nothing sorrowful has said so far indicates his has the slightest guilt for what he did, nor that he actually plans to write stories himself.

He has an 'author's page' on SOL under his pen name sorrowfullvirgin27. So far, he posted a poem and a fanfic story in progress. That's more than just an indication of his plans ... at least if his postings aren't plagiarisms again.

Replies:   Crumbly Writer
Crumbly Writer

@Ross at Play

Would that mean, according to your definition, that J. K. Rowling is not guilty of the allegations some make about her writing?

Most of J. K. Rowling's criticisms, once you filter out the initial 'first response' rants, boil down to the fact that she's not very adept as using many typical writing techniques. I've never seen any serious accusations of 'borrowing' story ideas beyond vague generalities between different stories.

What I find more offensive than Rowling's similar treatments, is when a name brand franchise resorts to outright character repositioning, such as the racially tinged Jar Jar Binks in the Star Wars trilogy. Not only was the character offensive, but it was an attempt to get an easy laugh based upon racial stereotypes rather than creating a genuine character.

Crumbly Writer

@robberhands

He has an 'author's page' on SOL under his pen name sorrowfullvirgin27. So far, he posted a poem and a fanfic story in progress. That's more than just an indication of his plans ... at least if his postings aren't plagiarisms again.

If that's the direction he's moving in, then I commend him for making an honest effort, but based on his comments here on the forum, he hasn't seem remorseful for what he did at all. Maybe that's because he still doesn't grasp why copyright theft is wrong, but it won't generate him the sympathy he's seeking.

Whenever someone faces scandal, the best strategy to to face up to it, admit you screwed up, weather the storm with you head held high, and get back to doing what you should be doing. What always sinks people, is when they continually deny that they ever did anything wrong, that their critics are just 'vengeful opportunists', and they never admit any culpability and they never make the slightest attempt to make amends (to their behavior, not financial compensation).

Capt. Zapp

@Ernest Bywater

1. A story inspired by another author.


These would be the type I referred to as 'inspired by cmsix' (Which unfortunately tend to end up with his other 'inspiration' of being incomplete). Time Travel with help from an alien where you create a shopping list, etc, etc.

2. Doing a story on the same theme as another story.
...
Thus it is possible to take a basic concept from another story and write a completely different story from it.


I agree, although not necessarily from another story.

Oyster50 presented a first chapter for 'Overboard' which he opened up for others to uses as a basis for their own stories. Two writers took him up on the offer and wrote, in my opinion, excellent stories.

awnlee jawking

@Ross at Play

Would that mean, according to your definition, that J. K. Rowling is not guilty of the allegations some make about her writing?


Plenty of authors have written stories about boy wizards, so I think JK Rowling is okay on this one.

I think Dan Brown's Da Vinci Code definitely fails - he even used the same character names - but incredibly the legal system decided he was innocent of plagiarism.

AJ

Replies:   Capt. Zapp
Capt. Zapp

@awnlee jawking

What is the proper term for someone who takes the 'raw mess' of a story as presented by an individual and turns it into something that is an actual story?

Say an individual has an idea for a story and writes a rough draft that has a good premise and plot, but is practically unreadable. This person sends it to someone to 'clean up' who ends up doing a lot of work to make it readable, basically re-writing the story without changing the premise or plot. All of the characters remain unchanged unless it is almost impossible for them to be as originally written (9 year old with 8 year old sibling but mother is only 18? Not likely!). Their activities follow he same plot, Same interactions, etc.

Also, how should the story initiator credit said individual if they post the story?

robberhands

@Capt. Zapp

Also, how should the story initiator credit said individual if they post the story?

The illiterate slob could name this marvelous editor as coauthor of the story.

Replies:   Ross at Play
Ross at Play

@Capt. Zapp

What is the proper term for someone who takes the 'raw mess' of a story as presented by an individual and turns it into something that is an actual story?

I would call it plagiarism if the person who rewrote the story does not have the consent of the creator of the raw mess to post their version. There are no exceptions, no matter how unreadable the version created by the copyright holder may be.

Ross at Play

@robberhands

The illiterate slob could name this marvelous editor as coauthor of the story.

We appear to have interpreted Capt. Zapp's post differently.

I'd agree with you the creator of the raw mess should do that if they post the story. However, there's nothing the editor can do if they refuse to give credit as co-author of the story.

Replies:   robberhands
robberhands

@Ross at Play

We appear to have interpreted Capt. Zapp's post differently.

I don't think we interpret it differently; we just focused on different aspects of the post.

That aside, I agree with you, there's nothing the editor can do if the author refuses to give him credit as a co-author.

Replies:   Capt. Zapp
Capt. Zapp

@Ross at Play

This person sends it to someone to 'clean up' who ends up doing a lot of work to make it readable, basically re-writing the story without changing the premise or plot.


You obviously missed this part of my post. The 'original writer' (OW) asked for the help, knowing their version wasn't very good.

I am thinking this is may have not been clear enough.

Also, how should the story initiator credit said individual if they post the story?


The editor sends the OW the 'revised' story. How, if at all, should the OW credit the editor if they (the OW) posts the story?

Capt. Zapp

@robberhands

That aside, I agree with you, there's nothing the editor can do if the author refuses to give him credit as a co-author.


There is one thing the editor could do. Quit working for the SOB.

Ross at Play

@Capt. Zapp

The editor sends the OW the 'revised' story. How, if at all, should the OW credit the editor if they (the OW) posts the story?

Okay. That clarifies what happened.

I'd still say that morally the editor deserves credit as a co-author, but legally they have no rights. Perhaps all editors could take this as an example of the importance of making agreements with authors before they start work about what will be expected from both.

sejintenej

@Capt. Zapp

The editor sends the OW the 'revised' story. How, if at all, should the OW credit the editor if they (the OW) posts the story?

" I thank [joe blogg] whose editing and rewriting has made my original ideas readable and, I hope, enjoyable"

awnlee jawking

@Capt. Zapp

I reckon the editor deserves co-author acknowledgement (and its credit towards earned premier member status). Whether there is any legal right probably depends on how much original content was supplied by the editor.

AJ

Replies:   Capt. Zapp
Capt. Zapp

@awnlee jawking

Thank you and all the others who replied to my question. It does seem to me that the 'editor' should get co-author billing. I will suggest it and see what kind of response I get.

Replies:   Ernest Bywater
Ernest Bywater

@Capt. Zapp

Thank you and all the others who replied to my question. It does seem to me that the 'editor' should get co-author billing. I will suggest it and see what kind of response I get.


Author provide creative input, editors provide cleaning up. Editors should get some billing in a foreword or the end note here at SoL, FS, SciFi but they shouldn't be listed as a coauthor unless they provided some of the creative input.

For example, I did a lot to assist with the editing and clean up of The Scot's stories prior to posting them for him, Winds of Change is one where I did A lot of work, but I'm not listed as a co-author because I didn't provide any creative input. While with Shiloh I did a lot of editing on the first half then wrote the second half of the story, so I'm a co-author due to adding creative input.

With Cazna's works I assisted in the story and plot development then wrote the action scenes for, but I initially fought being listed as a co-author because I wanted to keep our works separate at that time. Heck most of his stories are based on plot ideas I had and he ran with, while the rest I helped developed the actual story.

Replies:   Crumbly Writer
Crumbly Writer

@Capt. Zapp

What is the proper term for someone who takes the 'raw mess' of a story as presented by an individual and turns it into something that is an actual story?

Also, how should the story initiator credit said individual if they post the story?

The term for that is 'ghost writer', as they're essentially writing the ENTIRE story for you, since the original 'source' is largely unusable in most instances. Also, in most instances where someone uses a ghost writer (i.e. celebrities who have no clue how to write), you pay extra for them to remain silent, as few celebs want anyone to know their books aren't their own creation.

Crumbly Writer

@Ross at Play

I would call it plagiarism if the person who rewrote the story does not have the consent of the creator of the raw mess to post their version. There are no exceptions, no matter how unreadable the version created by the copyright holder may be.

Ghostwriters often 'sign away' their accreditation rights, although they're often free to claim credit for writing it, even if their names aren't on the books (as happened to Trump's many books).

Crumbly Writer

@Capt. Zapp

The editor sends the OW the 'revised' story. How, if at all, should the OW credit the editor if they (the OW) posts the story?

For ghostwriters who aren't required to sign confidentiality statements, they're simply credited as 'co-authors'. However, under no account should they be listed as an 'editor', since they're writing the majority of the story aside from a few generic 'ideas' for plot. Once again, 'copyright' is mostly about the actual words on the page, irrespective of who's original 'idea' they were. However, with most ghostwriters, they assume they'll receive second billing, since it's the celebrity name which is selling their books for them.

Replies:   robberhands
robberhands

@Crumbly Writer

To make a distinction between editor, co-author, and ghostwriter without any of us have seen the actual work is nothing but a wild guess.

Replies:   Crumbly Writer
Crumbly Writer

@Ernest Bywater

Author provide creative input, editors provide cleaning up. Editors should get some billing in a foreword or the end note here at SoL, FS, SciFi but they shouldn't be listed as a coauthor unless they provided some of the creative input.

For published works, the key is to include editors in the "Acknowledgment" section. The one thing you don't do is to add them as "editors" when you list the 'basic book information', as then they'll receive equal credit for the story, making it difficult for anyone to find your book, since it lists five or six different authors! That input field is mainly for translators, who get equal credit with the original author, rather than those who helped 'clean up' the finished product, as per Ernest's excellent summary of creative content.

Crumbly Writer

@robberhands

To make a distinction between editor, co-author, and ghostwriter without any of us have seen the actual work is nothing but a wild guess.

Maybe, but those are all acknowledged terms in the publishing industry, as most people in the field know precisely what they entail.

Basically, ghostwriters are excellent writers, but generally couldn't write a best-seller if their lives depended on it. The most successful ghost writers, however, command top dollar to do ALL the writing, simply so the various celebrity no-nothings can claim all the credit. Again, in many of these cases, especially with various movie stars writing 'children's books', the celebrities have little to do with the actual finished product besides signing their names.

However, if we're talking about 'non-native authors' needing someone to 'clean-up' their writing to make it sound authentic, then we're talking about a traditional author/editor relationship, which is a separate matter entirely. But that's not what was originally presented.

Replies:   robberhands
robberhands

@Crumbly Writer

Ghostwriters are hired. There is no originating right to be someone's ghostwriter without a contract.

richardshagrin

Ghostwriters are hired.

I can think of a possible exception. Someone who edits a diary can be an author, even though the thoughts he selects are not his own. Biography except autobiography involves an author who recounts thoughts and actions of the book's subject in the author's words, except when quoting the subject. Historians are a special kind of author, they don't get to invent the story they are telling. Well sometimes they make things up. Like Washington chopping down the cherry tree and saying I can not tell a lie.

robberhands

@richardshagrin

Someone who edits a diary can be an author, even though the thoughts he selects are not his own.

I don't understand that line. Editing someone else's diary doesn't make you an author.

Crumbly Writer

@richardshagrin

Someone who edits a diary can be an author, even though the thoughts he selects are not his own.

As Anne Frank's father learned the hard way, you are only an editor (of a biography) as long a you don't add any original content (i.e. invent completely fictional things to promote your own viewpoints). If you do, then you're officially a 'co-author', at best. At worst, you're a manipulator of facts hoping to gain on the suffering of others! (Otto Frank, spit, spit) The man should have been drawn and quartered!

Original content makes you an author, cleaning up the language makes you an author.

What you're probably thinking of are biographers (as opposed to autobiographers. An autobiography is a biography written by the person involved. A biography is a history written by a researcher, and they always claim author credit, despite who the story is about.

An author can edit, but when they do, they're listed as 'editors', not the works original author. Once again, copyright mostly protests the words themselves, not the ideas portrayed, as ideas are not copyrightable.

Your example of historians is also off-base, as historians are traditionally considered authors of non-fiction, rather than fictional authors! 'D

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