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Hi new author to SOL would love for you to cum Read and review

sorrowdays127

For anyone who is interested in a challenge I just posted my first story to SOL I challenge you ask to read and review my story Before I cut it into chapters it's apparently 17! Pages in SOL reading format so who do ever what's to take the challenge leave a comment saying you accept and then after your done leave another consent and then review good luck and have fun in looking forward to the reviews and what you think of Shadow and Light: Book 1: Antar. http://storiesonline.net/s/17870/shadow-and-light-book-1-antar

Dominions Son
Updated:

I think you need to reconsider how you have the story tagged.

Is what you have posted the full story or will there be more?

A really long story can support more content tags, but shorter stories with lots of tags that actually try to deliver on all those tags tend to end up muddled messes.

Are all those tags really appropriate? In my opinion, that's too many tags if what you have posted is the complete story, particularly when you consider how many sex tags you are using on top of a story that is also tagged slow.

It's not just forgetting to tag something that squicks a reader that can cost you readers and get you a low score. Tagging for things that never show up on stage can have the same result.

While genre cross overs can work, not all genres are equally compatible, and making a story work with incompatible genre is a lot harder. You have the story tagged with both Science fiction (Aliens, space) and Paranormal tags (Vampires, Were animal). Personally, this is a combination that makes me hesitate.

M/M and Female dom/male sub aren't squicks for me exactly, but they don't do anything for me either. I might read a story that includes them if it's not and extensive part of the story, but in this case, there are too many other things I consider red flags just in the tag list.

Replies:   sorrowdays127
sorrowdays127

@Dominions Son

I appreciate your comment and I understand about the tags I think that I did over do it a bit but the vamp were and aliens stuff actually fit it's kinda hard to explain without giving away the story line if you could read it and let me know what exactly tags you think I should use of me greatly appreciative :)

Replies:   Dominions Son
Dominions Son

@sorrowdays127

vamp were and aliens stuff actually fit


Personally, I wouldn't consider alien shape shifters to be any sort of were-creature.

A were-creature to me is:

1. Inherently supernatural.
2. Limited to two or three forms, human (or possibly in this case alien humanoid), animal and/or a hybrid form.

Were creatures don't count a furries. A furry is a non-shape shifting anthropomorphic animal. This can be science fiction (genetic engineering/uplift) or supernatural in nature.

I can accept a non-supernatural vampire, however, an alien parasite that drinks blood, but doesn't have any of the strengths or weaknesses traditionally associated with supernatural vampires isn't a vampire.

Replies:   sorrowdays127
sorrowdays127

@Dominions Son

Fair enough so how far have you gotten I am assuming you've read a bit but I can't tell if you will be reading the rest of it

Replies:   Dominions Son
Dominions Son

@sorrowdays127

Fair enough so how far have you gotten I am assuming you've read a bit but I can't tell if you will be reading the rest of it


I'm still not convinced it's worth reading any of it.

Replies:   sorrowdays127
sorrowdays127

@Dominions Son

Well that's sad to hear I did take your suggestion and delete some tags

Replies:   Dominions Son
Dominions Son
Updated:

@sorrowdays127


Well that's sad to hear I did take your suggestion and delete some tags


I did decide to give the story a try.

Here's some early feed back.

The story description needs a lot of work.

It starts out on a world called antar which is the midst of an all out war between full Antarians and Other more "Star Born" Anatarians what happens you ask?


To me, this implies a civil war with a single alien species that has achieved interstellar travel, humans or aliens vs humans.

Yet, after just a few paragraphs, the action has moved to an apparently present day Earth (no interstellar travel, no practical, for civilians, inter=planetary travel) and human characters (possibly modified with alien DNA).

It's one thing to not give away a major plot twist at the end of the story. It's something entirely different when the story drastically deviates from what the description indicates with in just a few paragraphs.

I would go so far as to call the latter dishonest. It fundamentally deceives potential readers about the nature of the story.

On tags so far, There is sexual activity within the first third of a page. The slow tag is not appropriate.

Read the tag FAQ, learn what the tags mean, use them appropriately. http://storiesonline.net/docs/code_faq.php

Slow There is a story and plot development before any sex occurs. Not a stroke story.


Slow implies considerable plot and character development before sexual situations are introduced.

A flash scene of an alien civil war on an alien planet before jumping to present day Earth. Then on Earth we are barely introduced to 5 characters and only given a tiny glimpse of what is happening on earth before the story gets to sex just isn't enough to qualify.

Replies:   Dominions Son
Dominions Son

@Dominions Son

Okay, I've gotten a little further.

I've reached the part where Liz's parents are explaining things to her.

1. I wouldn't consider a were-bat to be a vampire even if it does drink blood.

2. It says they were wiped out. If a vampire isn't going to pop up later and this is the extent of it, no vampires ever on stage in the story, I would recommend dropping the vampire tag. You don't need to and in fact generally shouldn't tag for things that are mentioned but don't happen on-stage.

sorrowdays127

@Dominions Son

Spoiler there will be true vamps later on

sorrowdays127

@Dominions Son

And I've been thinking about the beginning my stuff I would like to keep the civil war part but idk how to change it up a bit

Replies:   Dominions Son
Dominions Son

@sorrowdays127

And I've been thinking about the beginning my stuff I would like to keep the civil war part but idk how to change it up a bit


Actually, I don't really think that scene is necessarily a problem, as long as the story description clearly indicates that most of the story takes place on Earth with human(ish) characters. Something that early in the story is not something to hold back as a potential spoiler.

Dominions Son

I just thought of something. The prophecy regarding Liz might be a good starting point for rewriting the description.

sorrowdays127

@Dominions Son

Hmmm that's intriguing how far down on what page? Is it?

Replies:   Dominions Son
sorrowdays127

@Dominions Son

Tell me what you think of the description now

Replies:   Dominions Son
Dominions Son

@sorrowdays127

Hmmm that's intriguing how far down on what page? Is it?


Middle of page 2.

Dominions Son

@sorrowdays127

Tell me what you think of the description now


I think that will work well. A hint at the overall plot for the action set on earth without giving away the ending.

Replies:   sorrowdays127
sorrowdays127

@Dominions Son

True enough have you gotten further in the story yet?

Dominions Son

@sorrowdays127

I'm up to the end of the kids first run in the woods, almost to the bottom of page 2.

sorrowdays127

Good I hope your enjoying it ;)

Dominions Son

@sorrowdays127

True enough have you gotten further in the story yet?


I just got to page 4. I'm enjoying the story so far.

sorrowdays127

XD I'm glad

robberhands

You correctly used the 'Fan Fiction' code. I never watched the TV-series 'Roswell' and also didn't read your story, so I can't assess how closely your storyline reflects the series. However, you are using the same names and apparently at least roughly the same story-line. I think it would be prudent to mention it somewhere and give credits to the creators of the TV-show.

REP

FYI to all - Lazeez removed the story due to plagiarism by sorrowdays127.

Crumbly Writer

Lazeez removed the story due to plagiarism by sorrowdays127.

No real author bursts onto the scene demanding that everyone here drop everything to help promote their works without learning how the site operates first. His claims sounded fishy from the very beginning. I'm surprised he even knew the story details himself.

Replies:   Bondi Beach
Bondi Beach

@Crumbly Writer

No real author bursts onto the scene demanding that everyone here drop everything to help promote their works without learning how the site operates first. His claims sounded fishy from the very beginning. I'm surprised he even knew the story details himself.


Take it from Selena Kitt: no real author uses "cum" as a verb, either.

bb

Replies:   Safe_Bet
Tharos

Hello all, I am the original author to Shadow and Light. Published the complete story on a few Roswell Fanfic sites over ten years ago...actually thinking about it - it's been over thirteen years. From the looks of it, the story was copied from a site where the owner stopped doing updates on his site for personal reasons.

The completed work was 30 chapters, 290k words and back then...well proofing wasn't exactly something I did. I wrote then I posted. I know, it's bad of me.

Anyway, I never published anywhere else. Thankyou to Robberhand for pointing out Literotica. I've reported it and gone hunting for other sites. I don't mind people reposting, but outright plagerism...hell no.

Dominions Son

@Tharos

nal author to Shadow and Light. Published the complete story on a few Roswell Fanfic sites over ten years ago...actually thinking about it - it's been over thirteen years. From the looks of it, the story was copied from a site where the owner stopped doing updates on his site for personal reasons.

The completed work was 30 chapters, 290k words and back then...well proofing wasn't exactly something I did. I wrote then I posted. I know, it's bad of me.

Anyway, I never published anywhere else. Thankyou to Robberhand for pointing out Literotica. I've reported it and gone hunting for other sites. I don't mind people reposting, but outright plagerism...hell no.


Would you consider posting the whole thing here yourself? What I managed to read before it was taken down was a fairly enjoyable read.

Tharos

I have been considering it, but it will be as I edit it. Once upon a time I left it as is...that doesn't sit right with me anymore.

Switch Blayde
Updated:

@Tharos


Once upon a time I left it as is...that doesn't sit right with me anymore.


A breath of fresh air. Thank you.

(Not being a participant here, you probably don't know what I'm talking about. But good for you. Take pride in what you write.)

Vlad_Inhaler

@Tharos

There are ways of searching for editors on this site, the most obvious one being the Authors/Editors button right at the very top.
I don't know if 290k words will be a help or a hindrance on that front.

Replies:   Crumbly Writer
AmigaClone

Granted, the fact that it's complete might be a help

Hopeless Writer

@Tharos

An interesting detail (at least to me): How did you prove you are the author, not the person who had posted it here? No, I don't want you to give away any secrets so the next pretender knows how to impersonate you better, just some tips what I could do to prove they're mine if anyone would "steal" my stories (fat chance).

Other people here might have tips too?

robberhands

@Hopeless Writer

If there is one advantage to posting a story from the get-go, that's it. That aside, any kind of evidence is permissible to prove your copyright - witnesses, documents, or even photographs.

REP

@Hopeless Writer

How did you prove you are the author


I can think of two proofs that a plagiarist cannot use:

1. One way would be for him to contact the webmaster of the site where he posted the story, explain the situation, and have the webmaster contact Lazeez.

2. He and Lazeez could exchange messages via his account on sexstories.com where he posted the story.

There are probably several additional methods that would prove he is the author.

Ernest, Switch, and others - what sort of proof have you been asked to provide to prove you are the author of your plagiarized stories, if not confidential

Switch Blayde

@REP

Switch, and others - what sort of proof have you been asked to provide to prove you are the author of your plagiarized stories,


I sent the webmaster the link to where my story was. The date posted was the proof.

Replies:   sunkuwan
sunkuwan
Updated:

@Switch Blayde


I sent the webmaster the link to where my story was. The date posted was the proof.


That's... all?

Let's say You post on a different website years later and some troll just contacts the webmaster of the different website and tells him he is the original author etc. etc.

Even more horrible, just imagine you posted your story on a site that isn't operable anymore, the webmaster is not responding and you can't log into your account anymore, or if you can, you can't send anything from it or post anything.

Replies:   Switch Blayde
Switch Blayde

@sunkuwan

That's... all?


When it happened, I had my own story site. People were stealing my stories and posting them on Literotica. I didn't even know it until fans contacted me. So all I did was contact the Literotica webmaster and provided the link to my site where the story was posted.

For all I know I have other stories floating out there, maybe even on Literotica.

Replies:   awnlee jawking
awnlee jawking

@Switch Blayde

That worked?

It didn't work for me. One of my SOL stories has been stolen and posted on Literotica and the webmaster didn't respond to my e-mail.

AJ

Replies:   Switch Blayde
Switch Blayde

@awnlee jawking

That worked?


This was many years ago.

Ernest Bywater
Updated:

@REP


Ernest, Switch, and others - what sort of proof have you been asked to provide to prove you are the author of your plagiarized stories, if not confidential


Links to earlier postings showing a prior prior date works for most. With Amazon they insisted I start an account, so I had my son send from his account a DRM takedown notice with authority from me plus the links, then they acted.

Replies:   REP
REP

@Ernest Bywater

Glad it worked for you.

If I were Amazon and someone filed a DRM takedown notice, I would have wanted that someone to prove 2 things:

1. Ernest Bywater's copy of the story predated the plagiarist's.

2. You are Ernest Bywater.

Replies:   Ernest Bywater
sejintenej

Ernest; I reckon REPs first suggestion is probably the b e s t (get a link between the other webmaster and Lazeez) Does Amazon do a plagarism check?

That said Sorrowdays127' earlier web entry just could be plagarism though we would hope/doubt otherwise.

Sorrowdays127; I missed it before it was taken down but respectable authors here reckoned it was at least OK so please try to get the origin sorted out and post here, edited or otherwise.

Dominions Son

@sejintenej

That said Sorrowdays127' earlier web entry just could be plagarism though we would hope/doubt otherwise.


The original author who complained to Lazeez has come forward publicly on this forum.

According to that person:

The original was posted only to a Roswell fan fiction site 10 years ago predating even the posting to Literotica.

The original is much larger than what Sorrowdays127 posted at 290K words.

Sorrowdays127 is no longer showing in the author list, so he has nothing else posted here and since he originally tried to deny the accusation in the forum, but since he has not been heard from since the 13th on any of the threads, I suspect that Lazeez killed his entire account.

Replies:   Crumbly Writer
Crumbly Writer

@Vlad_Inhaler

I don't know if 290k words will be a help or a hindrance on that front.


@AmigaClone

Granted, the fact that it's complete might be a help

Personally, from my own experience, I'd take the time, since it's completed, to revise it and remove all the subplots and affairs which don't directly contribute to the plot, either as character development or plot advancement.

That will reduce the overall size, otherwise the 290K size might intimidate editors.

My other suggestion, from self-publishing 16 books with more on the way, I'd repackage the story into a series. That will allow you to edit and release in a measured pace, while giving yourself time to work on the rest while building you fan base.

If you want some guidance into how to break a prolonged story into separate books, we can talk, but there's a specific process that I use which I've found successful.

Crumbly Writer

@Hopeless Writer

Other people here might have tips too?

@robberhands

If there is one advantage to posting a story from the get-go, that's it. That aside, any kind of evidence is permissible to prove your copyright - witnesses, documents, or even photographs.

The best bet is a history of revisions to show how the story evolved over time, although few keep that types of records, only keeping the latest versions.

Publishing (which posting online is considered as far as copyright goes) is the best proof, especially since the site's owner/publisher can vouch for your ownership of the work. However, once I know that my story is likely to finish, I create an ISBN entry on Bowker (since I ultimately intend to publish). That's considered proof of content ownership, especially since you have the option of posting the actual content for verification purposes. Other than that, filing a copyright claim is another option, though that'll cost you $57 a pop.

However, there's a big difference between being able to PROVE copyright ownership, and being able to DO anything about it. In most cases, the guilty parties aren't typically law-abiding citizen, often residing (or posting) in Eastern-block countries who don't listen to copyright claims from most countries. I had an issue from someone who stole my cover, 'published' copies of my story with nothing but links to other pages (each link clicked fed him page shares, otherwise known as click-bait). He lived right here in the U.S., but without hiring a high-priced copyright attorney to send him a polite cease-and-desist letter, there wasn't much I could do about him.

Crumbly Writer

@REP

Ernest, Switch, and others - what sort of proof have you been asked to provide to prove you are the author of your plagiarized stories, if not confidential

Since I publish under two different names (my real name for my published works and Crumbly Writer for my free postings), I get asked this periodically (ex: "We noticed that this story is available online under a different name. We need to verify that you're the actual author of this work, etc.).

It's generally not difficult to straighten it out, since the thieves rarely put in the work to document any claim to their non-work. Thieves are lazy, they're only interested in either quick bucks or rapid attention, and aren't interested in doing any actual work. Most of the time they've copied my stories, they either stole my cover, complete with my name, or they created a two-bit cover, again using the same title, so it's easy to validate I was the original publisher.

Crumbly Writer

@Dominions Son

Sorrowdays127 is no longer showing in the author list, so he has nothing else posted here and since he originally tried to deny the accusation in the forum, but since he has not been heard from since the 13th on any of the threads, I suspect that Lazeez killed his entire account.

Good riddance! The default response of the scoundrel is denial, as it's easy and people prefer to believe in conspiracies, but when push comes to shove, they invariable jump ship and run. Cheaters thrive in the dark, they run at the first sign of light.

Replies:   Dominions Son
Dominions Son

@Crumbly Writer

Good riddance!


Agreed.

The default response of the scoundrel is denial, as it's easy


True, though in many cases I think the accused should be given an opportunity to present their own side, that should be handled privately with Lazeez, if they can back their claims with real evidence.

and people prefer to believe in conspiracies,


I've never understood that.

Ernest Bywater

@REP

Glad it worked for you.


The link to SoL proved good enough for them since it had a prior date stamp. However, I suspect it was a link to free story site did more for them acting than anything else.

I provided a statement for my son to use on his account, and they accepted that.

Ernest Bywater

@sejintenej

Does Amazon do a plagarism check?


No, and I don't think Patreon do, either.

Replies:   Crumbly Writer
Crumbly Writer

@Ernest Bywater

No, and I don't think Patreon do, either.

None of the self-publishing sites do, just like most of the web, it's all 'honor based'. They won't take action until someone complains, though they're mostly good about responding to legitimate evidence you're innocent. In fact, they're a bit too ready to accept evidence that you're the original owner even without proof, so it's better to have if it becomes a fight between two competing claims. Again, they mostly count on the thieves giving up and going home rather than sticking around and putting up a fight.

Replies:   Ernest Bywater
Ernest Bywater

@Crumbly Writer

They won't take action until someone complains, though they're mostly good about responding to legitimate evidence you're innocent.


I've no problem with that, but there's no way i can check what's being pushed on Patreon. To check what an author is putting out I have to sign up for them then look at what they're putting out, then do this author by author. In short, it's not possible for me to check what's there to see if I should be complaining about. Thus the thieves get a clear run.

Replies:   Centaur
Centaur

@Ernest Bywater

and you have to donate/pay for each chapter

Replies:   Crumbly Writer
Crumbly Writer

@Centaur

and you have to donate/pay for each chapter

It's unlikely that someone would only copyright a single chapter, rather they'd copyright the entire book because they're too damn lazy to bother writing something original (or learn how to write).

However, Ernest's point was essentially that Pateon's setup is almost designed to cancel out the many plagorism identifying software tools, so much so it seems like they purposely laid out a welcome mat for any and all plagiarists who want to come and request money.

We don't mind authors or other artists requesting funding support, but the inability to report or even question content is especially troublesome.

Replies:   Michael Loucks
Michael Loucks

@Crumbly Writer

However, Ernest's point was essentially that Pateon's setup is almost designed to cancel out the many plagorism identifying software tools, so much so it seems like they purposely laid out a welcome mat for any and all plagiarists who want to come and request money.


Wouldn't that be true of any site which offers text for sale and doesn't offer free samples (I do, but as you way, many do not)?

Replies:   Crumbly Writer
Crumbly Writer

@Michael Loucks

Wouldn't that be true of any site which offers text for sale and doesn't offer free samples (I do, but as you way, many do not)?

Not at all, because you can communicate with the Admins about what is on the site, file a complaint about copyrighted material and have them take actions. However, the admins at Patreon (from what Ernest said earlier) don't seem to have any way of appealing to them to take any necessary actions.

There's user privacy, and then there's non-accountability. Users can hide behind one, but the second fosters criminal actions.

Replies:   Michael Loucks
Michael Loucks

@Crumbly Writer

Not at all, because you can communicate with the Admins about what is on the site, file a complaint about copyrighted material and have them take actions. However, the admins at Patreon (from what Ernest said earlier) don't seem to have any way of appealing to them to take any necessary actions.

There's user privacy, and then there's non-accountability. Users can hide behind one, but the second fosters criminal actions.


What I'm asking is how you find out it's copyrighted material without having to make a purchase if the site doesn't let you read story excerpts for free?

Replies:   REP
REP

@Michael Loucks

1. A reader notifying the original author that they found a plagiarized copy of the story.

2. Software that allows an author to search the internet for plagiarized stories.

Probably others that I'm not aware of.

Replies:   sunkuwan
sunkuwan

@REP

1. is doable. Just contact Patreon after you are aware of it.

2. 95% of the internet is not searchable. It is not even the darknet that bolsters this number, just the immense number of pages behind paywalls, password protected sites,
company sites where you need a login, or just a normal "norobots.txt" which disallows search engines to index the page.

And I have to repeat myself: You don't pay an author for stories on Patreon, you pay for the writing. It is immensely difficult for a plagiarist to:
- fake an active writing schedule with plagiarized stories
- you need a starting fanbase! No-one will pay you on patreon without having read some of your works. So you have to impersonate a real author first and you need to mention "you" are now on Patreon on a site where the fans of said Author are. WITHOUT any fan mentioning it to the real author or asking the real author it is really his Patreon.
- you need a fucking huge fanbase to get a baseline of some steady money, and the more fans, the more risk for getting found out.
- Planning and maintaining an active Patreon with a posting schedule is FUCKING WORK! It is way easier to just dump it on Amazon or whatever.

I don't know any examples of a financial successful plagiarized Patreon. it just doesn't make sense.

Replies:   REP  Ernest Bywater
REP
Updated:

@sunkuwan

I was not talking about Patreon.

The software I referred to may not have access to the entire internet, but it is used on accessible portions of the Internet. Most book sellers want the general public to access their sites and make information about the books they sell public.

ETA: there is no logon required on many book sellers sites (e.g., Amazon and Ebay) unless you want to make a purchase.

Ernest Bywater

@sunkuwan

Just contact Patreon after you are aware of it.


Good advice, but the way Patreon is set up it's impossible to become aware of it without paying the copyright thief money to begin with. For a case to be raised it needs the very rare situation of a person already paying to also already be familiar with the original work - a likelihood so low I doubt anyone scamming people on Patreon would ever get caught.

The problem is the Patreon system doesn't provide for a way to check for copyright theft at all, and they don't care.

Replies:   sunkuwan
sunkuwan

@Ernest Bywater

*deep breath*

The thief needs a fanbase, no-one is paying a person on Patreon without seeing his prior work.

THIS IS NOT A BOOKSTORE where you just randomly buy a book after reading its cover.
The Plagiarist needs a big portfolio to even start getting money from fans, or an active novel that is currently written. All things that make getting discovered astronomically high.

And first of all, most files are not even stored by Patreon, how should the people behind Patreon search them or give other people access to a search?

Do you even have an example of this happening or are you just yelling at clouds?

It is a million times easier to just make accounts on amazon or other digital stores and dump the book there and hope from some double digit sales, than trying to set up a Patreon with enough fans that pay you monthly and not get found out.

Replies:   Ernest Bywater
Ernest Bywater

@sunkuwan

The thief needs a fanbase, no-one is paying a person on Patreon without seeing his prior work.


Right, if they have prior work that's good, they can sell it at a bookstore type situation.

Finish a product and sell is the most honest way to do it.

However, you keep missing the point:

A typical novel runs to between 40,000 to 60,000 words. A typical chapter on SoL and most websites runs to around the 4,000 to 6,000 words. Thus a typical novel will have around 10 chapters (I'm not typical in I try for 6,000 to 10,000 words per post). So, if someone stole one of my longer stories and started posting it on Patreon in 5,000 word chunks they could get 54 posts out of Power Tool (268,000 words), 55 posts out of Finding Home (277,000 words), 54 posts out of Shiloh (269,000 words) all of which are stories that have already suffered from copyright theft. At 5,000 words a week they could get many years out of some of the longer stories here at SoL, several of which aren't posted anywhere else.

They can easily get away with it because there is absolutely no mechanism in place to allow people to check what is being posted by the people using Patreon without first paying out money. The whole issue would vanish if Patreon made it a requirement that the first 15,000 words (or equivalent for non-text items) of a story or item had to be made freely available to the public for checking purposes. This would also have the advantage of allowing people to see what they person's work is like to begin with.

Replies:   IliaVolyova
IliaVolyova

@Ernest Bywater

You assume Patreon is a website like Storiesonline where people are searching for content and finding it there.

But I guarantee to you, that if you open a Patreon account right now and post all your work there but don't announce this action to your current fans, you will not get anything more than 50$ worth of donations. To make money of Patreon you need to direct fans to the website off somewhere else.

Replies:   Ernest Bywater
Ernest Bywater

@IliaVolyova

You assume Patreon is a website like Storiesonline where people are searching for content and finding it there.


I'm not assuming anything about Patreon, just pointing out when I went to check if anyone was plagiarising my stories I was unable to check material. The issue cam up because a Plagiarist asked on here about being able to advertise their Patreon account here which made me want to check if someone was plagiarist my stories there. I found there is no way to do that and the Patreon management don't check for plagiarism either. It's as simple as that.

Replies:   sunkuwan
sunkuwan

@Ernest Bywater

You need a fucking fanbase to get money monthly, don't you understand that?
The Plagiarist has to impersonate your whole online presence, your current fans, and your CURRENT work. Without you ever finding out about it.

because no-one will pay this idiot monthly for old work if he can find it for free.

PATREON IS NOT A BOOK-STORE
PATREON IS NOT A STORY SITE.

It is tip jar where you pay a creator for work that he is currently doing. The fans who would pay an author monthly will know if he is the correct person, because the Author would fucking announce it where he normally posts his work.

sunkuwan

Also:

you can't search for stories, to look if there are plagiarized stories somewhere on Patreon, and so can't a potential reader. How would the reader even find the plagiarist? There is now browsing of creators. There is no browsing of stories, the reader must be made aware of a Patreon site OUTSIDE of Patreon.

Ross at Play

@sunkuwan

Seriously, sunkuwan, I urge you to protect your sanity and just stop responding to EB's nonsense.

You cannot win this one. You are too rational and honest to win against an ego which only sees what it wants to see. EB has detected an apparent "weakness" in the Patreon system. You've explained, over and over already, why that is irrelevant for all practical purposes. I can assure you from bitter experiences, there is no possibility he'll ever get the points you have made.

I suggest you take the view that you've already proven your case, so you may drop it now unless somebody else still has doubts and raise questions.

Replies:   sunkuwan
sunkuwan

@Ross at Play

Thank you Ross, I will take it to heart.

Safe_Bet

@Bondi Beach

Take it from Selena Kitt: no real author uses "cum" as a verb, either.


LOL I remember hanging out and arguing everything under the sun (including the use of "cum") with Selena, TxRad, Angeline, Scouries, Sweetwitch, etc. on the Literotica forum, back in the day. Those pre-SOL days were a real hoot! Thanks for the good memory evocation.

Ernest Bywater

@sunkuwan

The Plagiarist has to impersonate your whole online presence,


The plagiarist need only steal a story and post enough via the Patreon system to get people paying monthly donations, which is beyond your ability to understand. However, the issue is the system as set up does nothing to stop copyright theft while it provides no way for people to check on copyright theft by people using the system to get money.

I can think of a number of authors whose only on-line presence is here on SoL so I could easily steal their stories and start posting them a little at a time while harvesting money via Patreon by claiming them as mine, and there's no way to check that. The only way it will come to light is if someone who signs up with me for that story and recognises it; which is exceedingly low, especially if I give them different names.

You keep saying the stories are stored elsewhere, but access to them is through the Patreon gateway so they can't be checked out by anyone without going through that gateway.

Replies:   JohnBobMead
Ernest Bywater

@sunkuwan

It is tip jar


A tip jar is where you pay someone for a service provided, not monthly bribes to keep providing it.

As i said few times, I never said it was a book store, which is something you seem focused on.

Patreon encourages people to pay money for incomplete works while not allowing anyone who doesn't pay to check if the work is stolen or not, and the management don't check for stolen works. That's what I've said, and all I've said, and you've never provided anything to refute that. You keep spouting it's not a book store, so what. When it has a system to easily detect copyright theft, left me know.

REP
Updated:

@sunkuwan

EB's point is about the morality of a system that supports a plagiarist receiving money for posting stolen stories.


It is tip jar where you pay a creator for work that he is currently doing.


Paying the creator of a story for the work he is doing is appropriate.

Paying a plagiarist for posting chunks of a story they stole is inappropriate.

A system that does not police its site and sets policies that make it difficult for others to police the site is irresponsible.

Replies:   Michael Loucks
Michael Loucks

@sunkuwan

You need a f-cking fanbase to get money monthly, don't you understand that?
The Plagiarist has to impersonate your whole online presence, your current fans, and your CURRENT work. Without you ever finding out about it.


If I had set up a Patreon account and simply posted AWLL there, nobody would know about it, and the chances of someone stumbling on it would be rare. I have yet, with 275 monthly patrons, had someone find me 'by accident' or by searching. Every single one of them has come from my SOL fanbase, direct referrals, or cross-referrals (Big Ed, Nick Scipio, ProfessorC).

The day someone randomly finds me on Patreon, I'll be shocked.

Michael Loucks

@REP

Paying the creator of a story for the work he is doing is appropriate.

Paying a plagiarist for posting chunks of a story they stole is inappropriate.

A system that does not police its site and sets policies that make it difficult for others to police the site is irresponsible.


So, pray tell, how does the creator get paid for his work (Patreon is more than a 'tip jar' for me - there is work available there which I do not give away) if I allow EB (or someone else) to read/download it without paying to 'check' for copyright violations?

I reiterate - if a book is published on Amazon with a different title and author, and 'look inside' isn't enabled, the only way to find out if the story is plagiarized is to buy a copy. In other words, same as Patreon.

Replies:   REP
REP
Updated:

@Michael Loucks

1. Patreon has the mechanics for payment.

2. You won't find all the plagiarized stories.

I wouldn't buy a book based on its Title and Cover, maybe on the author's name. Most books offered for sale have a description. Most plagiarists use the original authors description. A unique phrase in the original author's description is what you search for.

ETA: My post addressed the ethics of paying someone for what they create versus what someone steals.

Replies:   Michael Loucks
Michael Loucks

@REP

2. You won't find all the plagiarized stories.

I wouldn't buy a book based on its Title and Cover, maybe on the author's name. Most books offered for sale have a description. Most plagiarists use the original authors description. A unique phrase in the original author's description is what you search for.


If I were going to do it (and I'm not) I'd come up with a new title and my own blurb. But I guess copyright thieves aren't quite that smart. Yet.

Replies:   Dominions Son  REP
Dominions Son

@Michael Loucks

But I guess copyright thieves aren't quite that smart. Yet.


It's more laziness than lack of intelligence.

REP

@Michael Loucks

probably a lack of creativity and lazy

JohnBobMead

@Ernest Bywater

The plagiarist need only steal a story and post enough via the Patreon system to get people paying monthly donations,


Contrary to what has been stated previously, it is possible to search Patreon.

There is a search box at the upper right of the screen, just to the left of the patreon Home button and the Patron account icon.

The search terms you enter are matched against Creators names, profiles, and public posts and description fields, but not against the content that is received in return for your support.

Thus, while they can describe the benefits that they give to different levels of support, you only know what those descriptions actually represent if you have come across their work elsewhere. Which is why they tend to provide links to their work elsewhere on their profile page.

Which is why, as sunkuwan points out, if you don't already have an established fan base, pretty much no one is going to give you any support.

I won't say absolutely no one, because I have backed Kickstarters where I hadn't actually listened to a musician's previous product, but their description was such that I thought it was worthy of support.

But the feedback I've received from the various projects I supported like that has been that I was a very unusual person for doing that. It is not the norm.

It is even less normative in regard to ongoing support. You have to be able to produce a corpus of work for people to examine prior to their being willing to commit to monthly contributions.

Which means that if they are seeking support from anyone other than those who are already fans of their work, at a minimum representative samples have to be stored outside of a pay wall.

If it's outside of a pay wall, then it can be checked for plagiarism. In order for it to be a sufficient sample for someone to decide they want to support the Patreon, it has to be a large enough sample that a carefully conducted plagiarism search should detect it (provided, of course that it is on a site that the web indexers actually index; but that has been pointed out previously in regard to detecting plagiarism in the first place.)

This makes it highly unlikely that anyone would be successful using specific plagiarised materials as the inducement for support.

Yes, once they have a support base, they could start rewarding them with plagiarised materials, but they wouldn't be able to identify those materials as what they were going to provide as an inducement for support more precisely than the genre and who it was similar to without actually providing information which could be linked to the actual creator of the work.

Replies:   Michael Loucks
Michael Loucks

@JohnBobMead

Which means that if they are seeking support from anyone other than those who are already fans of their work, at a minimum representative samples have to be stored outside of a pay wall.

If it's outside of a pay wall, then it can be checked for plagiarism. In order for it to be a sufficient sample for someone to decide they want to support the Patreon, it has to be a large enough sample that a carefully conducted plagiarism search should detect it (provided, of course that it is on a site that the web indexers actually index; but that has been pointed out previously in regard to detecting plagiarism in the first place.)

This makes it highly unlikely that anyone would be successful using specific plagiarised materials as the inducement for support.


Actually, I just tested this. I have public posts with free samples which are text-based attachments. I searched for two unique phrases used in those attachments. They do NOT show up in search. So they are publicly available, but not searchable.

Ernest Bywater

@Michael Loucks

They do NOT show up in search. So they are publicly available, but not searchable.


Part of the issue with search engines is they can only search websites and web pages where the site owners have enable the site and pages able to be searched and available to be searched. There are ways to stop the search engine bots from searching the site or specific pages on the site.

If the bots can't check the page, or the page hasn't been up long enough to be scanned by a bot you won't a response on a search engine.

Replies:   Michael Loucks
Michael Loucks

@Ernest Bywater


Part of the issue with search engines is they can only search websites and web pages where the site owners have enable the site and pages able to be searched and available to be searched. There are ways to stop the search engine bots from searching the site or specific pages on the site.

If the bots can't check the page, or the page hasn't been up long enough to be scanned by a bot you won't a response on a search engine.


I did this search on Patreon. It's not indexed locally, which was what I was responding to.

I know all about how Internet search works. I started on Usenet in 1983 and have never been offline (except when the modem was shut off) since. Ran Usenet sites, hosted web pages when NCSA Mosaic was the browser of choice and there was no such thing at https...Just sayin.

JohnBobMead

@Michael Loucks

They do NOT show up in search. So they are publicly available, but not searchable.


Hmm.

Well, that completes moving it from "busted" to "plausible".

And, given the other thread started by the OP, that means it is a valid concern.

We do tend to think of Ernest as being just a tad paranoid about some things, but, just because you are paranoid doesn't mean they aren't out to get you.

Score one for actually researching to see if it was a valid concern.

The combination of my initial check on the ability to search, and Michael's follow up using information of specific text to search which would verify/disprove my conclusion, is an excellent example of the scientific method at work in an open access environment.

Replies:   Ernest Bywater
JohnBobMead

It's been suggested that if we continue with the topic this thread has drifted to, that we do it from a new thread with an appropriate title.

Given the title of this thread, I can understand why those not actively participating on it might like to see it drop off the screen.

Replies:   awnlee jawking
awnlee jawking

@JohnBobMead

I hereby irrelevantly mention Nazis in order to invoke Godwin's Law. Discussion closed!

AJ

Replies:   Dominions Son
Ernest Bywater

@JohnBobMead

We do tend to think of Ernest as being just a tad paranoid


tad paranoid isn't a strong enough statement about how I feel on copyright theft and protecting my copyright.

Dominions Son

@awnlee jawking

I hereby irrelevantly mention Nazis in order to invoke Godwin's Law. Discussion closed!


I suggest you look up and read Godwin's law, it doesn't say what you think it says.

Replies:   awnlee jawking
awnlee jawking

@Dominions Son

Godwin's original version was that as an internet discussion grows longer, so the probability of a participant being compared to Hitler tends to 1.

From that a number of variants have been spawned, also calling themselves Godwin's Law. As well as the variant I used, there's also a variant in which the first person to mention Hitler/Nazis is considered to have lost the argument.

AJ

Replies:   Dominions Son
Dominions Son

@awnlee jawking

From that a number of variants have been spawned, also calling themselves Godwin's Law.


Sorry, but since none of those variants came from Godwin, none of them are Godwin's law.

Replies:   awnlee jawking
awnlee jawking

@Dominions Son

There are plenty of laws around that aren't exactly as the person they're named after intended. Killing a discussion when Hitler/Nazis are mentioned is far more useful in the real world than an a probability tending to 1.

And you're definitely not sorry!

AJ

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