Forum: Author Hangout

I've never had a problem even with dead tree books if I have to take a break in the middle of a chapter, or for that matter even the middle of a page.

Maybe it's because I'm compulsive. I'm a perfectionist who likes things in order and neat.

Only if it's in my little part of the world. But it's more likely yo be the long space bar with a key on each side due to the way I have my keyboard set up on the desk and the few keys with anything have them painted on - most are now bare due to me wearing the paint off with usage.

the keyboard industry has refused to modernize. It's the online equivalent of Americans refusal to EVER adopt the metric system.

It's not the keyboard industry. They tried. It's the consumer.

That's a failure of marketing over efficiency.

It is really more a factor of what people use.

It must be remembered, typing classes were taught so people could get a job in the real world. And 99% of the typewriters used in businesses were QWERTY from day 1. When it was put on the first commercial modern typewriter in 1870.

Dvorak did not come around until 1936. 66 years later, it was like the 8mm video format, coming out almost a decade after Beta and VHS. It was way late to ever get more than a marginal audience.

It would have required the majority of businesses to have replaced their typewriters, and missions of typists to relearn. That was never going to happen. It caught on with authors more than anybody else, as they typed for their own use only, and bought their own machines. And as many had not even taken typing as they never intended to be typists, their learning it was not a problem.

The QWERTY layout had already been standard for over 90 years by the time the Selectric came out. IBM and others even released modifications for the Selectric to allow it to be used. Some mechanical and required making adjustments inside, others as simple as moving the type on the ball and changing the keycaps.

IBM in the early 1960's even released the ball, but soon discontinued it for lack of sales. Which is why most that really want it resort to doing it the hard way by modifying the guys inside.

It might have actually had a chance, if it was not so damned late to the party. No matter how good it was, it would never replace the millions of keyboards already out.

ALL use the basic QWERTY style

The QWERTY style was created to slow the typist. It was when the thing with the letter on it came up when you pressed the key and hit the paper to print the letter. If you were too fast, the things would get stuck. (Sorry, I don't remember what the "things" were called. Maybe hammers.)

When computers came out and there were no "things" to get jammed, people came up with other letter combinations on keyboards to speed up the typist. But they never caught on because everyone knew how to type on the QWERTY keyboard.

ETA:. Just checked. The "things" were called "type bars"

The QWERTY style was created to slow the typist.

Exactly. The original, mechanical typewriters simply couldn't keep up with how fast people could type. What makes it slightly amusing is that even with a QWERTY keyboard, fast typists could still manage to get things stuck. For those who've never seen a manual typewriter, the bars were laid out with similar to the strings on a piano, but were all angled, so when you hit the key, they'd swing up to strike the paper at one single spot.

I don't know how many times I managed to get things tangled up because the return was a little slow, or a finger from one hand was resting on the same key, because it was getting ready to be used again.

When computers came out and there were no "things" to get jammed, people came up with other letter combinations on keyboards to speed up the typist. But they never caught on because everyone knew how to type on the QWERTY keyboard.

Well, that is because all the manual typewriters used them. And by then it was just the standard. But by 1961 with the IBM Selectric, that was largely eliminated. Individual keys were soon replaced with either a ball or wheel with the individual characters on it, and "typeahead buffers" were built in, so a fast typist could type at least a certain number of characters.

By the 1970's, only the cheapest of typewriters still used individual fixed typebars. Most had already moved to the ball or wheel, which allowed typing fonts to be easily changed.

Though, I'll grant that it's been a long, long time since I specifically searched for a DVORAK keyboard.

There's one for $22 on Amazon.

Though, I'll grant that it's been a long, long time since I specifically searched for a DVORAK keyboard.

Look for the Northgate Omnikey. They also used Alps Blue or White switches, and had a dip switch under a front door that allowed a lot of configurations. XT/AT, Amiga, or TTY compatibility. Also Dvorak, moving certain keys to other locations, and more.

But expect to pay a premium. Even 30 year old 101 key models (that was the basic - The Ultra T had around 125 keys) will set you back around $300.

Check Amazon $300 is mid range pricing for some keyboards

hell, here in Australia we can buy decent keyboards and mouse bundles with LED colours from A$59 on up. I'm sure you can do the same in the USA, and maybe cheaper.

The DVORAK layout is also very common (and good once you're used it, especially for English typing).

Author Piers Anthony has written in depth at his love for Dvorak. And for many years, the Northgate Omnikey was a favorite of those who used that layout. It actually had switches that would cause that to be the default, and even included 3 different layouts. Standard, left, and right handed variations. And came with a key cap puller, so the user could then change the key placement to match which version they used.

One of my regrets in life: I never learned to type blind.

I never learned to touch type as typing wasn't taught to males when I was in school. I taught myself to type by watching my fingers on the keyboard and walking the keyboard using the first two fingers of both hands so I could see the letters.

However, I've now been using the same small keyboard without a number pad for about 15 plus years, and during that time I've built some muscle memory, but more important is the visual memory I've built up. Thus, due to seeing where the number are on the keyboard I know what letters are where in relation to the numbers. The numbers still have all of their paint as I rarely use the numbers at all. Thus I know the letter 'e' is below the gap between the numbers 3 & 4.

All this skills doesn't help with certain types of typos as my hands and the fingers on each hand now work at different speeds due to past injuries causing some muscle or neurological damage. Thus when I want to type something where the first letter is by my right hand and the second letter is by my left hand I may end up with the letter is reverse order due to the left hand being faster than the right hand and get it's key stroke command in first. That's why I often sue something when I mean to use it in the sentence.

I know what letters are where in relation to the numbers.

I learned touch typing in high school thinking it would help typing reports in college. I can type without looking because my fingers know which key to strike, but if you were to give me a blank keyboard and tell me to fill in the letters for each key I don't think I could do it. So my fingers know where they are, but not my conscious mind.

I learned touch typing in high school thinking it would help typing reports in college.

You were lucky. When I went to high school typing was not offered at schools for boys and it was an elective at the girls only schools and a girls only elective at the mixed gender school. Even then, most only offered it as an elective for years 10 to 12.

This turns into a minor plot point in my story. My (male) protagonist fought to get into Typing prior to being... replaced?... by his do-over self, who'd been typing for decades. Getting back out of Typing turns out to be more difficult than expected due to an officious counselor who's taking revenge on a boy for daring to take it in the first place.

This turns into a minor plot point in my story. My (male) protagonist fought to get into Typing prior to being... replaced?... by his do-over self, who'd been typing for decades. Getting back out of Typing turns out to be more difficult than expected due to an officious counselor who's taking revenge on a boy for daring to take it in the first place.

I'd have turned it around and not have him trying to get out, but have the counsellor on his back about it being for females only, so he gets back at her by bringing a dress to school which he puts on before entering the classroom to make a point about the stupidity of gender roles, and then have him be top of the class as he can already type well. Both of which will send the counsellor into orbit on their own.

The MC would likely get beaten severely by jocks

I said "... bringing a dress to school which he puts on before entering the classroom ..." which means it's probably a shift style dress he slips over heis head in the hall and takes it off immediately after class. Everyone with an IQ over 1.5 would realise he's doing as a stir ... hmm, jocks you say, yeah they may not have a high enough IQ to work out he's having a go at the establishment.

Of course, he could wear a kilt of a kaftan to school for the whole day.

Yeah, the kilt would likely still be close enough for the jocks to take issue, but if he went fully authentic, the boot knife would come in handy...

could get into trouble for having a knife, even back then. However, he could have a shillelagh and call it a walking stick.

It was very common in my area for students to carry folding knives

I carried a six inch lock blade in a holster on my belt through most of high school. I wasn't the only one. No one cared. We had a kid in junior high bring a shotgun in for shop class ON THE SCHOOL BUS, so he could make a new stock for it. Again, no one cared. (Graduated HS in 1979)

1980, conservative but tolerant school. It'd work, but it also would've sent the story careening in an entirely different direction.

While I have no plans for him to do it, it's within my MC's character to pull something exactly like that for the right reason. Getting out of Typing wouldn't be right.

That's the definition of 'touch typing'. Do you think anyone can remember the term "QWERTY" without looking it up (or at least staring at a keyboard for a few seconds)?

That is something that is simply not done anymore.

Myself, I hate the modern keyboards we are stuck with. To me, they all feel like I am pressing on mushy grapes. I learned typing in school on IBM Selectrics, and then later on early digital systems like keypunch card machines and "dumb terminals". And all had keyboards that copied that look and feel.

Such as the famous "IBM Model M" keyboard. A nice audible "click", to tell the typist they had hit the key hard enough, and if they held it to long and it repeated. Some keyboards (Zenith) even used a small speaker inside the keyboard to replicate that sound.

But those days seem gone now, so I am forever stuck with grapes for keys.

I use laptops almost exclusively. I have the laptop that I have (an Alienware 17R5) because it has a full-sized keyboard with decent travel (no click, but decent travel) and a number pad. My previous laptop was a Precision M4800, also picked largely for the keyboard (though it's a bit less 'full-sized', it's still good).

It's the hardest part about shopping for a new system; I head right for the keyboard section, because a lousy keyboard is an immediate disqualification, no matter how nice the rest of it might be.

And that was true before I started writing fiction; it's even more true now.

I'd much rather have a behemoth of a laptop with a good keyboard than something light and cute with an awful chicklet keyboard.

you can always plug in an external keyboard to use on your laptop.

I use a laptop in my office, but I use external keyboard and mouse even there. I run HDMI out to a 24" external monitor so that when I'm by myself, I have my dual monitor setup like I have at home. When I have a client, I set it to duplicate my laptop screen, spin it around, and they can see what I'm looking at easily, like pictures of a house or when I'm filling out the contract.

I tend to use it either on a small table or literally as a laptop. No external keyboard, no space for a good mousing surface. I've been doing that for so long that I'm used to it.

At work I had a docking station for the work-provided laptop but still did a lot on my personal laptop (without docking). Not that I've been in the office much lately...

How long is a married chapter?

Twice as long, before taxes.

Three times as long before the divorce.

chapter length is determined by the story

I used to believe that, and then I learned that it's not true. It's determined by the genre and author.

There are no rules for starting a new chapter. In thrillers (a genre) I'm reading, the author starts a new chapter right in the middle of a scene. Maybe at a "what's going to happen next" place, but for no real reason that I can think of other than the chapter reached the author's 3-page limit.

And I've read numerous articles that say you write a novel and then decide how many chapters you want that novel to be. You then divide the number of words by the number of chapters which determines chapter size and therefore where your chapter breaks are.

I don't use either of those two methods. I start a new chapter when it feels right.

n thrillers (a genre) I'm reading, the author starts a new chapter right in the middle of a scene.

And that's where he would immediately lose me as a reader and when asked about his works I'd tell how bloody hard it is to read because of how he breaks up the story too much.

because of how he breaks up the story too much.

But he doesn't really because you simply start reading the next chapter.

I don't like it, but it's not like SOL where you have to wait for the next chapter.

But he doesn't really because you simply start reading the next chapter.

The end of the chapter states that's the end of the action right now, just like a cliff hanger does. It also states this is a safe point to put the story down.

However, more importantly, breaks like that are irrelevant breaks and they that means you have no way of knowing if any of the breaks the author has put in have any relevance.

................

Over the years I've read thousands of action stories and never come across that process of breaks in the middle of action just because they wanted to keep the chapter length short, but the most recent action story by a US author I've read is an early Clancy novel, and in that novel he followed the same rules I did.

if any of the breaks the author has put in have any relevance.

That's the point. I've read several articles on when to start a new chapter and many say, unlike sentences, paragraphs, etc., there are no rules for chapter breaks. It's arbitrary, up to the whim of the author. I don't agree with that, but evidently some authors and publishers do. Then again, maybe my whim is different than theirs.

I've recently read novels by Lee Child, David Baldacci, James Patterson, and Vince Flynn. They all had short chapters and broke them in the middle of a scene, places I never would. I'm not saying the chapter ending wasn't relevant, but the scene wasn't over.

I've recently read novels by Lee Child, David Baldacci, James Patterson, and Vince Flynn. They all had short chapters and broke them in the middle of a scene, places I never would. I'm not saying the chapter ending wasn't relevant, but the scene wasn't over.

I'm now very happy I've not read any of their works, and I now doubt I ever will.

I've read several articles on when to start a new chapter and many say, unlike sentences, paragraphs, etc., there are no rules for chapter breaks.

Just about every document I've read on how to write assignments, reports, manuals, instructions, etc go to a great length on stating each chapter had to be a complete account of what the chapter is about.

I strongly suspect what you're now seeing is an effort by certain people to create an arbitrary process for chapter breaks.

From a straight logic point of view if it makes sense to have chapter breaks in arbitrary places, then the same is also true of arbitrary breaks in paragraphs and sentences. Yet they don't support that which makes them inconsistent.

BTW: I just went and checked the several of the extensive collection of action / adventure stories printed by Golden Eagle during the 1960s to 1990s I have. Every one I checked follows the same chapter rules that I do with some chapters being as short as I paperback page and others up to 18 paperback pages due to the amount of action in them. Also, every chapter starts with a totally new scene to the end of the previous chapter, usually a different location, but sometimes a different time frame. These are the Mack Bolan, able Team, and Phoenix Force series if stories. The same is true of the Casca stories.

From a straight logic point of view if it makes sense to have chapter breaks in arbitrary places, then the same is also true of arbitrary breaks in paragraphs and sentences. Yet they don't support that which makes them inconsistent.

What they say is there are grammatical rules governing sentences and paragraphs. Sure, authors break those rules all the time, but the rules exist. But they say there are no grammar rules for chapters. They're arbitrary.

I remember in the non-fiction book "Killing Lincoln" the author started a new chapter right in the middle of a dialogue. No POV was changed. He just decided to start a new chapter. I hated it. But I hated that it was written in present tense too. However, I loved the book.

I once inserted a chapter break in the middle of a paragraph. Sounds monstrous, but it actually worked quite well IMO.

AJ

and ask how those genres compare to yours.

Yes, they are thrillers which is what I've been writing. I read them for both enjoyment and to learn the genre. I keep my chapters short (1,400–3,500 word range with some even less than 1,000 and some over 4,000) but I don't break them the way I say those authors do.

Just to be clear, I'll make up an example. Let's say the hero finds a letter and reads it. The chapter might end with him finding the letter and the new chapter begins with him reading it. The point is, he breaks at a page turner. Remember, this is a thriller.

Remember, this is a thriller.

Thriller as in Don Pendleton or Dick Stivers action - adventure thriller, or thriller as in Agatha Christie or Arthur Upfield mystery thriller. All four are well known and sold millions of books, yet not one of them broke chapters the way you mention or follow what you're saying the genre is now. I'd say someone in a publishing house started making a change for some reason and some people are now in the process of making it the way to go.

I will say that doing the way you mention means you don't have to properly plan out the chapter related plot breaks.

............

BTW: The sort of typical chapter break I see in the books I've read have been things like:

Chapter ends with the silence falling on the battle field as the last person stops shooting as they fall over wounded. Next chapter opens with someone coming upon the battlefield several hours later, or the next chapter opens with a scene at HQ discussing why there's not report from the unit.

In either case you have a finished scene to end the chapter and totally different scene to start the next chapter.

I will say that doing the way you mention means you don't have to properly plan out the chapter related plot breaks.

That is true. The articles I read said chapters were decided after the novel was written simply to break it up into chapters.

Again, I don't agree. I'm more the way you described the battlefield one.

But as it relates to the OP, I still like short chapters. I just don't like the artificial break.

Morever, I've learned that such 'impromptu' breaks are a clear indication they occur when something in the story breaks the readers' concentration (whenever I'm trying to spot potential reader issue, I'll observe my mother as she reads my stories. Anytime she puts the story down, I'll check where she stopped, and I've identified several serious story issues that way. If a story element causes readers to put the story aside, it typically worth addressing before publication!

agreed