Forum: Author Hangout

I had several early chapters where there were natural break points, but the chapters came in at just about 2,000 words. That was probably the point when the feedback from readers got the worst.

One advantage to finishing the story before posting is I break for chapters where it's appropriate for the story; mind you, I also do sub-chapters. Then when I post the story I post about 8,000 word chunks where it matches with a chapter or sub-chapter break. That way the readers get a good dose and I maintain my rules on chapter breaks.

unlike Ernest, I don't repackage my stories to post online.

CW,

Maybe I wasn't making myself clear enough. I don't repackage my chapters at all. I write in chapters and sub-chapters and sections, each with their own headings. At the start of the story I post a Chapter Contents List which has each Posting Part in green (this equates to a SOL chapter number) and then the story table of contents broken up into the parts with a notation at the bottom of Headings: chapter in red, sub-chapter in blue, section in bold. Thus the chapter, sub-chapter, and section formatting is retained. When I post I go through the story and find a segment that ends at a chapter or sub-chapter end that is the correct word range I want and cut there to make it a posting part. Thus the SOL chapters do not correspond exactly to my story chapters, and the colours come across as I want. Some times SOL puts the Contents list with the prelude or cast list, sometimes at the start of the first SOL Chapter Part.

Maybe I wasn't making myself clear enough. I don't repackage my chapters at all.

Sorry, I must have gotten confused about who said what. Someone (Switch?) commented about repackaging book chapters to create longer chapters on SOL. I was just saying that maintaining separate stories can get confusing.

stop the chapter at the end of the closest scene change.

sadly, many don't cut at the scene change, which is the problem with some. The other issue is when it's a story that just rambles on because they feel they have to hit a word count every so many days and stuff in filler.

Basically, if you know inherently where the chapter breaks should be, go with it. If you can't tell, just pick an arbitrary length that feels goods and stop the chapter at the end of the closest scene change.

First of all, scriptwriting and fiction writing are VERY different creatures. However, many authors on SOL feel like you do (myself included, until recently), in that they try to fit in a certain 'minimal' amount of words. Readers appreciate this, but that shouldn't dictate where you break a story.

The story should always determine where you divide chapters. There are various way you can divide it. You always close at the end of a scene, but you can include multiple scene. For instance, you can include an entire day's activity, rather than a single scene, or if the scenes jump between characters in the same time frame, you could include each of them.

What you don't do is to have a dramatic fight scene, ending in a dramatic cliff-hanger, and then tack on an extra thousand words because you're under your self-imposed minimum.

What's more, you don't end a chapter just because you've reached an arbitrary limit in the middle of a scene. That's just poor craftmanship, and readers will feel cheated.

What's more, you don't end a chapter just because you've reached an arbitrary limit in the middle of a scene. That's just poor craftmanship, and readers will feel cheated.

More likely readers will feel abused and stop reading the story and make a decision to not read anything else you write.

First of all, scriptwriting and fiction writing are VERY different creatures. However, many authors on SOL feel like you do (myself included, until recently), in that they try to fit in a certain 'minimal' amount of words. Readers appreciate this, but that shouldn't dictate where you break a story.

The story should always determine where you divide chapters. There are various way you can divide it. You always close at the end of a scene, but you can include multiple scene. For instance, you can include an entire day's activity, rather than a single scene, or if the scenes jump between characters in the same time frame, you could include each of them.

What you don't do is to have a dramatic fight scene, ending in a dramatic cliff-hanger, and then tack on an extra thousand words because you're under your self-imposed minimum.

What's more, you don't end a chapter just because you've reached an arbitrary limit in the middle of a scene. That's just poor craftmanship, and readers will feel cheated.

You seem to have missed my point, or variously interpreted my words in the direct opposite of the intention.

Script writing certainly is fiction. I guess you meant it's different from prose? I don't disagree, I was just using analogy.

If there's no obvious natural break points in the flow of action, pick an arbitrary length and go with that. I don't mean write until you get to that length, I refer only to decision making in breaking up an existing much longer text into smaller sections. Of course you don't break in the middle of a scene, I distinctly did not say that.

In television shows where episodes are distinct stories yet also fit together in a larger plot sequence, the writers cram each story into the required amount of time. In prose the length is of course more fluid, but if the story pacing follows a similar pattern then the chapter breaks become obvious, like the breaks between TV episodes.

Let's say you have five scenes that distinctly relate to each other, but relate less so to the scenes before and after. That's your chapter right there. If you have twenty scenes that seem to all relate to each other equally but taken together are way too long, you may decide to break them up into an arbitrary number of chapters, probably three to five.

Chapters will hopefully all be about the same length as each other, but if the story structure has it end up that a couple of chapters are distinctly longer or shorter than the rest, that's fine too.

Chapters will hopefully all be about the same length as each other

Why?

I hear that a lot and don't understand it.

Why?

I hear that a lot and don't understand it.

Convenience, mostly. Probably a bit tradition as well. Note I have never called this a hard and fast rule, just a general trend.

You don't really see novels where there are ten 5-page chapters and one 100-page chapter. But it wouldn't be shocking for a novel to have two or three chapters that are twice as long as the other chapters. Sometimes you see a chapter as short as a page, though usually for some specific dramatic impact.

Let's put it this way. Back in the days of printed encyclopedias, the volumes were usually divided by letters. You have the L volume, the M volume, the N volume. But the S volume would be far too long, so it got split up, while the W, X, Y, and Z volumes would be too short, so they got joined together. Nobody worried that the L volume might be 50 pages shorter or longer than the M volume, but nobody wanted a volume that was more than double or less than half the size of the others. In prose fiction you have more leeway than that if you want to use it, but unless you are working with a story that has clear thematic or timeline breaks between chapters, generally length is what's used.

Aubie, we've discussed cliffhangers, and you can't avoid them all. The key is to resolve the main conflict in any given chapter, but you can leave any side conflicts for later. For instance, if you have a big fight, as long as you resolve the fight, it's fine. However, the reader may not know what provoked the fight, or find out whether the main characters were hurt or not. But the central conflict of the chapter was 'resolved'.

As I said, I used to pack various story segments on top of each other, to reach a 6,000 word average. I stopped doing that, and the size of my chapters dropped, but not substantially (the upper level chapters dropped). My latest book, though, the chapters have dropped into the 2,000 to 3,000 word length, though I usually start with 6,000 word chapters to set up the story.

Again, for what it is worth, I originally went for 3,000-word chapters because that was what I found by going through my wife's collection of Romance novels from Harlequin. I figured that they had to know what they were doing because of the volume of books that they were selling. It took only a very few chapters, something like 3 or 4 before that became the comfortable length for me. Mostly, I have stuck to that since then.

Aubie, romance was generally recognized as having very short books (ie. quick reads), much like mysteries. I believe that's changed over time, but you may want to consider that. Historical fiction tends to be like Sci-fi, in that the genre supports much longer books (mostly because you have to define your worlds and the times).

Richard, the Bobsey Twins and Hairdy Boys series were written at a time when cliffhangers were common. Most movies, books and magazines featured them, but times changed. Now many of those works are actively mocked, so I'm not sure I'd pattern your writing on those particular children's books. Readers are much more discerning nowadays, and the cost of media has changed how it's consumed.

DS, the mini-cliffhangers fit into my categorization of cliffhangers. As long as the current conflict (ie. the detective being grabbed from behind), it's OK to prologue the other, continuing conflicts. Those are OK, and readers don't have to wait long, just fast-forward past the annoying commercials. However, doing it constantly, never resolving the essential conflicts, taking between a week or months until the immediate resolutions, can be fatal to your stories..again, it's a useful tool in a writer's toolbox, but you don't want to rely on it.. Instead, it's best to pick and choose which scenes would benefit the most from using a cliffhanger..

Richard, concerning TV shows, I'm more interested in checking the 'hot shows' on cable to see what types of storytelling is currently trending, and how the media is representing various trends (like gays and transsexuals). Otherwise I mostly watch the mindless comedies as a way of turning off my mind so I can recharge for a few hours. (I also use it as background noise to counter the sound of other TVs and radios in my house.)

Can anyone suggest programs you can't live without on TV?

Of course I can live without it, but "Modern Family" is a show to watch. And of course sports and the news.

I just bought a new house and got a great new-house-deal from my cable company. Land line with unlimited long distance calls, 100mb Internet, the movie package which includes things like Encore, and every premium movie channel (HBO, Showtime, Cinemax, The Movie Channel, STARZ, etc.) for $139/month. I had to sign a 2-year contract with a $30/mth increase the second year, but it's still a great deal.

Can anyone suggest programs you can't live without on TV?

Definitely not. I've not watched a live television program for several years. Have watched a couple of documentaries someone recorded and suggest I'd enjoy, but that's it. I've not been inside a picture theatre for over fifteen years, either. Not seen anything advertised that's worth the cost of the ticket.

Definitely not. I've not watched a live television program for several years. Have watched a couple of documentaries someone recorded and suggest I'd enjoy, but that's it. I've not been inside a picture theatre for over fifteen years, either. Not seen anything advertised that's worth the cost of the ticket.

I'm looking forward to the upcoming "Martian" and "Stonewall", opening later. However, I've heard that "The Martian" is a 'disappointment for those who've read the book' (isn't that always the case!). I'm also prepared to be disappointed by Stonewall, finding the true histories so compelling, I'm afraid to watch a fictional presentation..

I was also surprised at how enjoyable "The Intern" was.

Update: I stopped by Barnes & Nobles today, and I was correct. Romance books are Much longer than they used to be, so my comments on that topic are probably outdated.

I like for the chapters in a story I am reading to be about the same length. That tells me how much time I have to budget to read a chapter without having to look it up. I appreciate the convenience.

That's how I used to approach it, aiming to give my SOL readers the most 'bang for their buck' for each chapter. But I've since migrated to differing sized chapters. If the action is fast and furious, I'll write short chapters, since a lot happens in fewer words (say only 2,000 words). If I'm describing details (like how a particular technology works), I'll write a longer chapter (as much as 10,000 words). My initial chapters tend to be longer, as I introduce characters, situations and conflicts (though shorter, faster chapters would probably sell the story better). Once those details are covered, the chapter lengths slide back to normal.

When I run into trouble is when I try to describe everything that happens in a given day, or at a give time. Then there's an artificial time frame imposed by the story, and it's difficult pacing it out.

Perv, I didn't mean to put any words in your mouth, but that's what I'd thought you were saying. However, I agree with Switch in that I don't think book chapters should all be the same length. Different types of chapters should fit into distinct categories. Likewise, when I read (a print book), I'll often look at the page length of the chapter before committing to reading it before I go to bed. That's a longstanding reading habit of mine.

Chris, as I mentioned in the other thread, that was my understanding about the Romance genre (that they prefer fast reads that get them to the romantic ending quicker), but I researched it later and discovered my info. was dated. Most Romance books found in book stores are now fairly sizeable, which means Indie books will tend to be even larger, since they're unconstrained by paper costs.

By the way, I agree with Switch. I now write book chapters, and will post multiple chapters to reach my magic SOL posting size of 5,000 to 6,000 words. (If you go over 8,000 or 10,000, I forget which, it breaks into multiple SOL pages!)

If you go over 8,000 or 10,000, I forget which, it breaks into multiple SOL pages!

Neither actually. The limit where they automatically paginate is 58,000 characters. This will be ~12,000 words, but the actual word count for the cut off will vary.

https://storiesonline.net/author/posting_guidelines.php

but the actual word count for the cut off will vary.

correct, because the spaces and grammatical marks count as characters as well.

I write my chapters to be as long as they need to be, and when posting to SOL I try to locate a chapter break around the 50,000 to 55,000 print character mark so I give the readers a decent read for the part posted.

edit to fix typo picked up by richardshagrin. I typically write stories to the 50,000 to 55,000 word mark so it's automatic to use the word word.

Not even War and Peace has 50,000 character names. It just seems that way.

I've never gone that far, but my six book "Catalyst" series had over 100 different named characters! (It's a good time to provide a character list.)

IMHO chapters should be as long, or as short, as they need to be to convey the sub-story of the chapter. That could be one word (Vonnegut's done that) or 10,000.

Thank you. I agree 100%. I think people are caught up in the "rules" of traditionally published genre novels. That is:

Length = # of words for that genre / by the number of chapters in a typical novel = number of words per chapter.

I hear that all the time from the published authors on wattpad (which turns out to be 2500-3000 word chapters). Not for me. No artificial breaks to keep a consistent chapter length. No padding to keep them consistent.

I may combine some small scenes within a chapter, but that's as far as I go.

Number 7 wrote relatively short chapters but posted daily so there was always new material available.

I need to clarify something. My stories don't take into account online posting, even when I post them to SOL. I write the whole story before posting any of it. When I finally post it, if I have short chapters I post more than one at a time.

So the chapter length is not a factor when I write. It is when I post.

Even in a war or an active battle situation, most of the characters are just background (unnamed). The only ones that have to be considered are the characters in use for the story, main character and the appropriate interactive characters. All the rest are like geography, there in the background for atmosphere or whatever term is correct.

I'd discussed this before (on the old forum) for one of my stories, where I asked 'at what point do you name characters'. I found that, as a chapter developed, my background characters started taking up more and more space. After about the third comment, aided by physical descriptions, I found I had to give them a name. However, I don't add them to a 'Cast of Characters' (i.e. Cast List), unless they're in more than a single chapter.

"Catalyst", with over 100 characters, was an exception to the rules. Although I typically have large casts, that was about one man starting a world-side movement, and so it was about his personally connecting to thousands of people. In that case, mentioning one hundred doesn't seem as unreasonable. Each of those were 'named' because they had a significant contribution, even if they didn't remain in the story for long (none of the cast lists list anywhere near 100 characters, as I only included those in each book).

By the way, the proper phrase for 'background characters' is "nonessential".

My reference of background characters means like the other customers in a restaurant or bar or grocery story. They are there but since there probably isn't any direct interaction between them and the story's characters all they are doing is making the scene realistic.

Interactive characters are different however since in some form those actually interact with the characters.

I guess I break it into: Unnamed characters, who don't do enough to justify naming them; Named characters, those important enough to be named but who aren't a consistent part of the story (i.e. cannon fodder), secondary characters, who are central to the story but don't lead it), and a couple lead characters. See, even my lists of character classes are longer than most authors!