Forum: Story Discussion and Feedback

When he responded, I learned that he had 3 editors go through it in addition to himself. That many errors after being reviewed by 4 people says something is not right.

His mother, his drunkard uncle, and the 5th grade kid next door?

His mother, his drunkard uncle, and the 5th grade kid next door?

Hey, don't pick on the kid.

Hey, don't pick on the kid.

The 5th grade kid next door undoubtedly knows more about grammar than the others. At least they've studied it sometime in the last twenty years.

the 5th grade kid next door?

Most 5th graders would have no problems spotting the majority of these errors (i.e. missing words, words left in that may don't fit the sentence, words in order inverted :), etc.)

Yeah, it got my point across without having to post a sentence from the story. :)

Doctor heal thyself. :)

There's a major difference between recognizing you have a problem, and work to correct it, than those who have no clue what they're doing wrong, and blithely blunder on.

There's a major difference between recognizing you have a problem, and work to correct it, than those who have no clue what they're doing wrong, and blithely blunder on.

Or do not give a rat's ass..(cough,cough*cropo*cough, cough...)

Or do not give a rat's ass..(cough,cough*cropo*cough, cough...)

That was the implied double-meaning, that it's wanting to improve that helps authors, not the authors who say 'Screw you, it's MY story!'

Some authors don't know what they don't know, and then there are those who simply don't care what they don't know!

Let he who is without sin cast the first stone.

Yes, those things are very different. That said, if you want to go on public rants about other peoples grammar problems without looking like an idiot, you had best make sure that there are no obvious problems with your own grammar.

You're missing the entire point of the post (which was written in response from a similar post from you!). Rather than castigate someone for not doing everything perfectly, it helps if you encourage them to improve, rather than throwing them off a cliff at the git-go.

People who aren't perfect can improve—or in my case rely on my editors—but those insist in perfect forum posts merely get boring discussions, and even worse stories.

Authors need to focus on telling their stories, as you can't edit a blank page!

Sure, that helps, no disagreement here, but that is not what is happening on this thread.

Here there are multiple posters bitching about grammar errors in unnamed stories by unnamed authors. That helps no one.

Have you read ANY of my posts in this thread? I've been arguing the counter point, that you want to encourage authors, encouraging them to get better by pointing out errors, but if they're uninterested in growing as artists, then casting them aside.

Everyone has some errors—many but not all of which are caught during editing.

itself contained an obvious wrong word

True.

I felt that deliberately making the types of errors I observed in the story was far better than posting one of the Author's sentences. I couldn't figure out how to do the first error type I noted in the story in the same sentence as the other errors.

Very true, but the OP on this thread and well over half the replies to it are rants about errors in unnamed stories by unnamed authors, this helps no one.

Again, exposing and humiliating someone doesn't "help them". Writing and suggesting corrections or things they haven't noticed, does, which is why it's better focusing on an author's strengths (and helping them improve their writing).

I was simply suggesting that authors 'turn the other cheek' rather than seeking to destroy their competition. Your seems to be 'if you never let beginners write, there will eventually be fewer bad authors.

No, mine is stop airing this shit on a semi-public forum. Doing this helps no one, it will scare away beginner authors and there will be fewer authors period.

Well, then we agree, to a certain degree, at least. Instead of trying to shut down the conversation, I was instead trying to get everyone to see it from the side of the struggling author. But ... there are also certain authors that certain readers just won't be able to abide. I want people to be reasonable, not unrealistic. If an author shows no pride in their work and isn't interested in correcting their errors, then it's acceptable to say 'this is too much for me."

but the OP on this thread and well over half the replies to it are rants about errors in unnamed stories by unnamed authors, this helps no one.

The OP was not ranting about the author. It was the high score of a story that he didn't think deserved it because of its unreadability. The author wasn't named to protect the author.

Except he spent more words on how awful the quality of the story was then on how the scoring system works.

He was speaking out of frustration, thus I'll ignore most of his rant. He'll probably be more reasonable tomorrow—especially after having watched everyone else pile on!

It sounds like the author in question was in a rush to publish—that it was never clear why. Without that little detail, it's hard to understand his decision to post an inferior work with several editors working on it. That reflects poorly on him, and it's his right to keep his private life to himself, but he's hurt his professional brand in the process.

If he's in the process of writing something else, I'd suggest he put it aside and clean up this story instead, lest fewer people read his next. He should also reconsider finishing and editing his stories before publishing them.

However, it should come as no surprise to new authors that readers don't appreciate types and simple mistakes in stories, though sometimes it helps reminding them that there is help available.

Except he spent more words on how awful the quality of the story was then on how the scoring system works.

Read the first post again. It's all about the quality of the story (or lack of it), not the author. The point was that a story written so poorly still got a score in the high 8's and that's why the name of the thread is "Don't Trust Scores."

I don't think it was a rant about the author. Not even the story as much as the score the story got.

That said, if you want to go on public rants about other peoples grammar problems without looking like an idiot, you had best make sure that there are no obvious problems with your own grammar.

Just the other day someone on wattpad threw out the "Never use adverbs." Someone wrote back that they checked out her story and the 1st paragraph contained 4 adverbs.

The vast majority of readers wouldn't have then necessary knowledge or skill to properly score a story in such a system.

What happened, previously, is the vast majority of readers would use the TPA system to vote 7:7:7, meaning it's essentially the same as it is now. Only a tiny handful would rate each independently. But I agree, I'd prefer at least some acknowledgement of errors.

I would rather have all stories scored 10's then lose the chance to enjoy someones imaginative writings for FREE!!!

We Authors like being appreciated. Personally, I would rather that one of my readers give me less than a 10 if they have a problem with my story and send me feedback so I know what I may be doing wrong. If I am not aware of a problem, I can't fix it.

If I am not aware of a problem, I can't fix it.

You can put in my agreement with that comment.

I only have the one story on here (so far), and I've kept every e-mail I've received from feedback going back the full year since I've started posting it. The only 'complaints' I've received were two when I used the automatic updating feature on here and it showed that it had posted, but didn't. Which enabled me to contact Lazeez and get it fixed quickly.

I only have the one story on here (so far), and I've kept every e-mail I've received from feedback going back the full year since I've started posting it. The only 'complaints' I've received were two when I used the automatic updating feature on here and it showed that it had posted, but didn't. Which enabled me to contact Lazeez and get it fixed quickly.

Part of that is encouraging (training) readers that you want feedback. That's often done—not by stating "corrections encouraged"—but by reporting on your blog how and which errors you've fixed in the story, thanking the readers for pointing them out to you.

Management probably would be happy to give you reviewer status, then you could do your reviews to include plot, technical and appeal with scores from one to ten. Include suggestions you think might improve the story. Probably its best not to review stories you didn't like, the review is supposed to be written to encourage people to read stories, not warn them away from one. But if you explain the appeal would be much higher if the technical were not so low, very likely Lazeez would let you get away with an occasional 5 for appeal.

I tried to appeal for reviewers to rate stories strictly on appeal, but then to provide a final qualifier about 'issues with the story', where they list what hampers the story (which you don't get now).

That way, you could be as truthful as you want, without being penalized. Unfortunately, I was derided for the suggestion on the editors forum—not because editors wanted to report these things—but because the editors wanted to rate stories poorly based merely on pet-peeves (i.e. using serial commas or not using contractions).

I'd rather see reviews which clearly state: Wonderful story, but the author doesn't know what the frig he's doing, than one that says, This jerk doesn't use the Style Guide I prefer, and I don't care how good the story is!

@doctor_wing_nut
The plot was very interesting, the story moved along at a reasonable pace, and the characters were somewhat engaging.

And that's all most people vote on, or are expected to score on.

Second this, except add a reasonable amount of nicely done sex.

bb

reasonable amount of nicely done sex.

About 10-20% sex and the rest plot sounds like a nice ratio to me. When it get up to 60-90% sex there isn't enough plot to hold the sex scenes together. :(

Second this, except add a reasonable amount of nicely done sex.

To me, it matters if the sex is part of the plot or character development, gratuitous sex in a story just to have sex in a story wastes the writer's and the reader's time. I've written stories with no sex through to much sex, but I try to keep the sex down to what's relevant for developing the story.

I've read lots of stories on SoL where sex scenes are dumped in simply because the writer thinks he has to have sex scenes, but the story would be better without the sex scenes.

Take my story Finding Home there are sex scenes at the start to show the main character's attitude to life and people, and the sex scenes change has his attitudes change; they're there to show his changing attitudes and behaviours. After they serve their purpose the sex scenes aren't included again, despite there being later places where they could be added, they wouldn't advance the story, plot, or characters, so I don't have them.

edit due to half the post being cut the first time around.

After they serve their purpose the sex scenes aren't included again, despite there being later places where they could be added, they wouldn't advance the story, plot, or characters, so I don't have them.

I'm finding that myself in my Skyrim story. Early on, it was a major part of the development of the main character for her to have a decent amount of sex with, well, lots of people. Now, not so much. She'll still have sex, just only in her committed relationship. As you said, the MC has had an attitude change.

Oh, and I hope you don't mind, I made a blog post on Memorial Day that referenced two of your stories. They're quite appropriate.

Oh, and I hope you don't mind, I made a blog post on Memorial Day that referenced two of your stories. They're quite appropriate.

Perfectly OK. If any of my stories suit a blog entry, then feel free to mention them. There are some stories I've written I'd gladly give newspapers and magazine approval to reproduce them free, if they wish to. They only need to ask, as has happened with some others in the past.

To me, it matters if the sex is part of the plot or character development, gratuitous sex in a story just to have sex in a story wastes the writer's and the reader's time. I've written stories with no sex through to much sex, but I try to keep the sex down to what's relevant for developing the story.

Even when the sex is part of the plot, many authors approach it as something to tack onto an existing plot. The story will go along, until the sex start, and then you could literally lift the entire sex scene without losing anything in the story. It's the literary equivalent of 'Wham, bam, thank you, Ma'am!"

On the other hand, I've largely quit include sex in my stories, because I prefer continuing the story through the sex scenes—having the characters discuss their histories, or what's bothering them (story related), but had to quit when many readers would bypass entire chapters if they encountered a single sex scene, and then bitch the story 'made no sense' afterwards.

"Why would I write and publish anything some readers find distasteful or repulsive?"

You can't please everyone. You have to please yourself.

"Why would I write and publish anything some readers find distasteful or repulsive?"

You can't please everyone. You have to please yourself.

Exactly. The question isn't "why don't authors write the kinds of stories I like, instead it's what motivates the authors to write stories in the first place. If a particular author doesn't pick the stories that I like, I'd avoid reading many stories by him, rather than punishing him for having different interests than mine.

There are many people (primarily gays) who like stories involving gay sex. So why do straight males get so incensed by them that they'd attempt to ban ALL gay stories? Why not just abandon them and leave the 3 - 5% of the population alone with their tiny percentage of reading material.

Again, the answer lies in their having a political agenda. They don't approve of gays, and 1-bombing a story or attacking an author is the modern equivalent of beating up gays in the street. It's meant as a warning to everyone else to 'stay out of my neighborhood if you know what's good for you!'. (Not coincidentally, you'll also notice there are virtually NO stories written by blacks or Muslims here. You do the math on that one.)

writing stories that readers have good reasons to be interested in for reasons other than sex scenes and presenting the stories in ways that make trying to skip over explicit sex extraordinarily and unnecessarily problematical.

I don't understand that comment.

When I write erotica, the sex scenes are paramount to the story. Just like the romance scenes when the genre is Romance. Or the scary or gory scenes when the genre is Horror. Or the fighting scenes in a ninja story or, for that matter, a boxing story. I guess in the Rocky movies you can fast forward to the end of each fight to see who wins, but you'll lose a lot of the movie (including plot and characters).

The idea that "sex scenes are paramount to the story" is valid with pure erotica, but other kinds of stories that include explicit sex scenes are more complex. Some stories intermix subplots that include explicit sex scenes with other kinds of subplots involving things such as science fiction, mystery, or non-sexual aspects of growing up.

I believe that's a very biased statement.

My novel "Sexual Awakening" has a very complex plot. In fact, it has two complex subplots that merge at the end, adding to the complexity. It's a murder mystery and a romance. But it's also erotica. The fact that it's erotica does not take away from the other aspects of the plot.

Further, if subplots revolving around sexual relationships have any significant literary depth, most of the literary depth is normally found in places other than explicit descriptions of sex acts. In such cases, people can find stories interesting for other reasons in spite of preferring to skip over explicit descriptions of sex acts.

Again, that's a biased statement. There are two main themes to my novel "Sexual Awakening." Revenge and how misguided religious zealots can screw up their child's life. For the second one, the sex scenes are critical to the plot — the sexual awakening of the character. You cannot skim over the sex scenes and "get" the story. And the sex scenes aren't thrown in. They are part of the plot and character's development and transformation. To say there's no literary merit to the sex scenes is offending.

If you don't like sex scenes you won't like erotica, just like if you don't like gore you won't like a slasher story. But don't say the sex scenes are thrown in and will weaken the story. If done right, they will strengthen the story.

Sorry, you were the proverbial straw on the camel's back.

There's been so much said here that no sex stories are better than sex stories and the more the sex the worse the story. I take issue with that. Sure, the following is crap:

"You're so fucking big! Pound my cervix! I'm cummiiinnnngg!!!!!! Ah, ah, yaaa, yeeeehhhh. Cummmmiiiiinnnnnngggggg!!!!!!!!!!!!

But that's because it's poor writing, not because it's a sex scene.

I was reading a story that had an interesting plot, not that it was well written. I trudged through the "tell, tell, tell" until I got to a chapter that was the protagonist going from class to class taking his final exams. It had nothing to do with the plot or character. It was simply a day in his life, and a boring one at that. So it wasn't a sex scene, but it should be skipped over (actually, never should have been written).

There's been so much said here that no sex stories are better than sex stories and the more the sex the worse the story.

Switch, at it's basic core your statement is correct. However, the main point of contention in a lot of previous discussions have been about the inclusion of superfluous sex scenes that add nothing to the story, and like any superfluous scene it can be cut without doing any damage to the story. In the past my main gripe has been about new authors adding in sex scenes that are gratuitous and superfluous simply because they thought they were needed to post the story on SoL.

As one of the most prevalent writers of no sex stories I should also point out I've written stories with sex scenes where I think the scene adds to either plot or character development of the story.

I believe that's a very biased statement.

My novel "Sexual Awakening" has a very complex plot. In fact, it has two complex subplots that merge at the end, adding to the complexity. It's a murder mystery and a romance. But it's also erotica. The fact that it's erotica does not take away from the other aspects of the plot.

Don't waste your time, Switch. It's clear that kov170's problem is with me and my 'single statement' given that he has no clue the types of stories that I write.

He's got a stick up his but, and until he stops to breath again, he's unlikely to see anyone's point. I've been catching up, a post at a time, but it's clear I'm going to be writing post after post after post all addressing the same point, and NONE of those points affect anyone else besides my one, single comment.

People who dislike sex scenes are unlikely to like stories that are essentially pure erotica,

That was my slasher analogy. If you don't like gore (like me), you won't like slasher stories. If you don't like scary (like my wife), you won't like Stephen King stories/movies. And if you don't like sex scenes, you won't like erotica.

That doesn't sound like a story where sex scenes are paramount.

The sex scenes are paramount to my novel "Sexual Awakening." You can't skip them and understand or enjoy the story.

One protagonist is out to get revenge on a pastor. He decides to humiliate the pastor's wife in the first step of his revenge. He blackmails her to have sex. The reader believes him to be the villain. But he's really a good guy who was hurt when younger so he battles with the conflict of making the wife do things against her will. It's an internal conflict (conflict between the need for revenge and hurting the woman who he falls in love with). So the sex scenes are paramount to both the plot and character. And the wife is the one who was taught by her parents that sex is a sin and not to be enjoyed, reinforced by her husband, so the sex scenes bring out a change in her — her sexual awakening.

In fact, there's a sex scene toward the end of the novel where the two sub-plots merge. It's impossible to skip it.

And the other protagonist is a cop murdering people for revenge (remember, revenge is the main theme of the story). The sex scenes are paramount to understand the relationship between him and his girlfriend. There's also a lot of foreshadowing that goes on during their sex.

One of the 5-star reviews is (take note of the "the sex is integral to the plot" at the end):

Very well done. Interesting characters. Seems a bit predictable but turns out with an unexpected but logical ending. Graphic and sexy but not prurient as the sex is integral to the plot.

Now here's a 3-star review from a person who must not have been looking for erotica (take note of the "Way too much sexual content though, a little too vulgar for my taste" at the end), but still gave it a decent review:

A little too much story lines, but all tied together nicely in the end. Way too much sexual content though, a little too vulgar for my taste.

Now in this 5-star review, he ends it with, "I would recommend this to anyone that likes erotic stories that include love, sex, life and death. You will all enjoy it."

This story by S. W. Blade kept me in suspense from the very beginning. It included 3 different stores and you never new what was going on until the very end. I hope this writer does other works in this way. I would recommend this to anyone that likes erotic stories that include love, sex, life and death. You will all enjoy it.

So it's clear that 1) the sex scenes are paramount and 2) if you don't like erotica you won't like the sex scenes.

My other novel, "Last Kiss," is not erotica. In fact, the original version was squeaky clean. Throwing in sex scenes would have been wrong. The protagonist is god-fearing. It's all about being good so when he dies he'll go to heaven and be with his true love for eternity.

But since it's Young Adult, I asked teenagers. They said swearing, sex, and drugs are prevalent in their schools and lives. And it wouldn't be realistic if it wasn't there. So I added a little "temptation" (no real sex) and swearing, but no drugs.

And I'm sure you're wrong because ... I keep seeing it on here!

Just because you find some sex scenes easy to skip over doen't mean the author wrote the passages so they would be easy to skip.

Not sure how it happened. I blocked the text in Harold's post. Perhaps I clicked the symbol in your post.

ETA: Yep, I just tried it. I guess I will have to be a bit more careful.

Some people like to read things that would bother/offend 90+% of the rest of the population. Why shouldn't some authors write stories for them?

(raises hand) Exactly. If all the appropriate content is checked in the tags and description, then people who don't like it can avoid it. Those who read it anyway, then get upset at the content and complain to the author should go fuck themselves. To write to an author to try to get him to remove the offending content is ignorant.

... people who post stories publicly do so because they feel good about writing things other people enjoy reading. All else being approximately equal, it seems logical that writers would prefer to have larger audiences that enjoy their stories.

The majority of SOL's readers LIKE to read graphic sex scenes with lots of detail. That is what they want. Authors who want a large following of readers will give those readers a lot of sex scenes.

Why would someone want to have sex with a graph?

Those who are mathematically inclined.

it is natural for sex scenes to be written in ways that do not cause significant problems if readers skim or skip over explicit descriptions of sex acts.

Where did you get that stupid idea from?

It is NOT natural. Some authors use sex scenes to titillate the reader, but other authors put sex scenes into stories for reasons.

Sex scenes are an integral part of an erotic story. They are not written to be skipped. In a well written sex scene, the author can show the reader some of the characters' personality traits that are not apparent during the characters other activities. Sex lowers a person's defensive shield and they often tell their partners things about themselves that they otherwise would not tell a person in a non-intimate environment.

Have you ever read John Ringo's "Paladin of Shadows" books?

I have. You're right, he's wrong.

As Mike keeps saying, he's NOT a nice person. He has kinks. He just ends up being the hero.

Also if you've not read it, I recommend 'The Last Centurion'. Again, screw political correctness. Bandit Six got the job done.

You're misrepresenting my words when you cut off the words, "In general," at the beginning of my sentence and then respond to how the sentence appears without those words.

There is no "In general,". Your comment belongs on the other end of the scale (i.e., In a few cases).

You are still denying that we understand what you are saying and WE DO NOT AGREE.

... comments seemed to imply that it would be a good thing for writers to deliberately mix important information into sex scenes so the sex scenes have more of a purpose beyond appealing to prurient interests. I view that idea as far more harmful than useful because inserting important information into scenes readers want to skim or skip creates an additional problem without solving the problem of stories containing material some readers find offensive and want to skim or skip.

Kov170,

You have made it very clear that you don't like to read scenes containing graphic sex. You have also made it clear that you want authors to write sex scenes that you can skip without missing important story information.

Authors and most readers see things very different than you do. You are in the minority on this issue and it is a very small group. I believe the majority of the authors in this forum disagree with what you say and they aren't going to change their writing style to suit what you want. We will continue to include important story information in sex scenes and if your skipping over that information causes you problems later in the story, then you lose. Perhaps you should try reading 'No Sex' stories only.

You have expressed the same basic opinion in multiple ways in this thread and we understand where you are coming from. We don't agree with you, so why don't you just drop the issue.

And he's completely oblivious to that being a very self-centered attitude.

And he isn't listening when we tell him that.

He wants what he wants and refuses to accept his wants are not realistic from others POV.

No, I'm done.

Robberhands,

Kov170 is a fanatic. He has a set of beliefs that are very different from the rest of us and he doesn't want to acknowledge we disagree with him as a fact. He repeatedly insists that we don't understand him because we aren't stating our case using the words he wants to hear. But does he understand what we are telling him? Yes, I think he does, but to acknowledge our views, opinions, and beliefs as having any validity, he would have to change his opinions. Fanatics believe they are right and anyone who disagrees with them is wrong; they don't modify their beliefs.

We see no significant difference between writing a scene so it can be skipped and just deleting the scene from the story. The effect is the same thing for those who just skip the scene. But Kov170 does not see our viewpoint and focuses on the fact that he never asked us to delete the scene. That is true. He never said delete the scene, all he said is write it in a way such that it could be skipped (i.e. deleted) without affecting the rest of the story.

Helmut meukel asked Kov170 if he is a TROLL. Personally, I think the answer is YES. By now Kov170 undoubtedly knows that no one in this thread agrees with his perverted idea that authors write or should write sex scenes so they can be skipped. Yet he fanatically persists in trying to shove his opinion down our throats and make us do what he wants us to do.

Regardless of whether he is a troll or a weird fanatic, I think all of us should just NOT RESPOND to his posts. If we are lucky, maybe he will go away and stop harassing us with his weird unrealistic opinions.

You are a self-centered, overly entitled brat if you think anyone is obligated to accommodate you.

Just an observation DS. Trolls push issues like Kov170 is pushing this one because they get attention and some weird form of satisfaction out of the exchange.

In a case like this, I personally believe everyone should refuse to respond to any of Kov170's posts. That's sometimes a difficult thing to do, but in this case he isn't going to change and he will just keep pushing regardless of how many times and ways we tell him he isn't going to get what he wants because what he wants is stupid.

accommodating readers who prefer to skip material they find offensive is a good thing

In my case the problem isn't that I find the sex scenes offensive but boring and repetitious.

I strongly disagree with the name-calling. I think you have a defensible point of view. Whether it's correct or not, everyone must make their own minds up.

AJ

Stephen King admitted to putting gratuitous gory scenes in his romances because that's what his audience expected.

AJ

Do you think he wants them to skip the scenes after he made an extra effort accommodating his readers?

I think he expected many of them to do so, since the scenes were counter-genre, and made it easy for them to do so. Romance readers relatively happy, horror readers also relatively happy. More book sales.

I don't know how he felt about writing them, but he admitted they felt unnatural in context.

AJ

I would tell this person "Go home and cook your own hamburger".

In other words, this ain't Burger King. You don't get it your way! :P

Here is your own solution:

Precisely. Kov170's problem would be easy for him to resolve if he visited his local public library instead of this site.

I strongly disagree with the name-calling. I think you have a defensible point of view.

Awnlee, you write the scenes in your stories to reflect what you want them to reflect. You don't write them to cater to a reader's sensibilities, although I doubt you would go out of your way to hurt someone intentionally.

Now along comes Kov170. He starts telling us that some Authors write sex scenes so they can be easily skipped. We tell him that Authors don't write sex scenes so they can be skipped. Add in his remarks labeling Authors and their ideas egotistical. He ignores what everyone tells him and persists in his delusional thinking. Then he starts adding in that we Authors should present critical story information before or after the sex scene, so he and others who want to skip the scene can do so without missing critical information. What Kov170 is doing is trying to control what we write and how our scenes are presented. I consider that to be a form of Censorship.

Kov170 had gone beyond reasonable in expressing his opinions. Despite everything people have told him, he continues to insist that Authors should write scenes the way he wants them written. I don't like name calling any more than you do, but I have reached the point of putting a label on this guy. Maybe it will wake people up to the fact of what he is.

I labeled him a Fanatic because there is no reasoning with the man. He out to push his views down our throats and he refuses to allow the facts others present to influence his beliefs.

As to labeling him a Troll, it seems to me that he getting something out of this conflict. Trolls create conflict on a website like SOL because they enjoy the attention it brings them. I believe Kov170 likes the attention he is receiving. He enjoys arguing with people he has labeled egotistical. He likes to present himself as the wronged party. Now why does he like doing these and other things; simple, it creates contention and that brings him attention. I don't know about you Awnlee, but to me, that sounds like the description of a Troll. My solution to handling a Troll is to not engage them by responding to their remarks.

Considering all of the above and the way he has presented himself, I strongly disagree your comment about him having a defensible position.

The problem is, every scene in a story, which can easily be skipped, shouldn't be written at all. It's a bad scene because it's superfluous.

An author will sometimes write a scene for a particular reason. You the reader may not know why the scene is there, so at that point it is not superfluous. Granted you have the option of deciding the scene does not support what you assume will happen in the story. In skipping over the scene, you may fail to acquire information that is important later in the story.

Of course, the scene may also be there to create a degree of concern that certain thing might happen; but won't. Such scenes could be skipped, but you the reader will not understand the scope of the MC's concerns and the MC actions may be based on what they believe might happen in their future.

At the end of the story, you could go back and edit out all those misleading superfluous scenes, but they would no longer be there to lead the next reader down the author's twisted path through the story's plot.

but I'm not sure what point you're trying to make.

The fact that readers can and do skip over scenes do not make the scenes superfluous. Just because you do not see and understand the reason behind a scene does not mean there is no valid reason.

In your discussion, you were establishing a flawed premise for use in supporting your point of view. So I pointed out the flaw.

The problem is, every scene in a story, which can easily be skipped, shouldn't be written at all. It's a bad scene because it's superfluous.

A scene written with the intention to be easily skipped

I have never met an author who writes scenes intending a reader to just skip reading the scene. They create scenes for they believe they are important to the story line.

Your original comment was:

The problem is, every scene in a story, which can easily be skipped, shouldn't be written at all. It's a bad scene because it's superfluous.

Your premise in that statement is that some scenes are written in a way that allows the reader to skip reading the scene. It also means that these scenes are superfluous and thus not needed for the story line.

I disagree with both of those premises.

You would have to identify the post then. I have been addressing the same post all along.

You're essentially asking an author to write a bad story, so that people, who feel bothered by certain contents, can enjoy it, too. Makes no sense, right?

Sorry, but that's simply a stupid argument. Writers like Steven King will always be enormously popular, but that doesn't mean that writers like Maya Angelou or Langston Hughes don't deserve an opportunity to have a voice. You aren't required to read them, if you prefer living in your own shell, but you'll probably be richer if you did read at least a single of their stories, without denouncing their experiences as being 'invalid'.

1-bombing a story you've never glanced at, simply because you disagree with a single point of view, doesn't help anyone! Voting that you don't like how that story was executed makes abundant sense.

What the hell is that? There isn't the slightest correlation to anything I wrote in the post you quoted so delusively.

Again, I came in several weeks late and tried to catch up on the fly. The entire later discussion circulated around my ONE counter-argument. My repeated argument was that the entire discussion didn't make much sense unless you knew the context of that one comment (that some stories, or at least one in particular) doesn't fit the broad-brush categorization.

But yeah, we were both arguing the same point.

When I started this thread—after ignoring it for a long time—I didn't realize just how many posts there were for me to catch up with.

Still, if I'd skipped to the end, I'd never have understood kov170's initial post, and we'd never have established that my isolated comment didn't address sex scenes in general.

There are different levels of aversion to explicit sex scenes. People who can't stand them at all may need to stay away from stories tagged as having sexual content. But for people whose aversions are less strong, skipping to the end of explicit sex scenes can be a good way to enjoy stories the people would otherwise find considerably less enjoyable.

Again, I don't object to readers skipping over boring passages, for whatever reason. My objection was always when they bitched about chapters they skipped 'not making any sense'. If you skip something, and become confused, then back the fuck up and see WHAT you missed, before badmouthing the story. You don't have to read the entire sex scene, but if you notice you missed a HUGE amount of dialogue, then maybe it's worth investing some time in at least reviewing it!

But again, that's my own little pet peeve, as I doubt many authors write the type of sex scenes that I do. Most, write sex scenes that are almost extraneous to the plot, in that you can easily drop ALL the sex without missing a single beat of the story. In those cases, I'd NEVER bother wasting time on them.

That sounds like the statement of a pompous, self righteous, angry little man. I hope you're not such a man.

Nope. It's just a simple point of fact. I write very unusual sex scenes (with more dialogue than actual sex), which is based on the types of stories I tell, rather than the genre or sex coding. As such, I don't think you can judge sex scenes in general based on my isolated comment. (You'll notice I keep urging him to take into context (once I explained it to him) before continuing to rant about the topic, since the comment was targeted to responses to my story, rather than sex scenes in general.

The scene he kept responding to was a 'counter example' (i.e. a scene that ran counter to most 'normal' (normally written) sex scenes.

That was partly why I cut back on my sex scenes, because I decided that too many readers simply didn't know how to handle my 'sex scenes', since they don't fit the standard patterns, not because they weren't well-written.

Unless I missed something, there are no codes that warn readers of such problems. And even if there were, warning people of potential problems is not an adequate substitute for trying to avoid or minimize the problems insofar as is practical.

That's clearly a style score, which they are free to downgrade. But my objection was, rather than rating a story lower, they'd instead write me a personal note, complaining how the story made no sense (expecting me to personally explain it to them), rather than simply going back and reviewing the section they'd just skipped. Obviously, if you skip an entire chapter, and the next doesn't make any sense, you've skipped over something.

Who do you blame in that instance, the person who wrote the confusing story, or the person who couldn't be bothered to see whether they missed something?

Yet, as they say, the squeaky wheel gets the grease. While my earlier stories got the higher scores, the few people who bitched about content left me unwilling to invest the necessary time to build the story properly. That effectively invalidates all your claims about scores reflecting reader values.

But it does not make sense in regard to decisions to design stories in ways that make it unnecessarily difficult to skip over explicit sexual content. Unless I missed something, there are no codes that warn readers of such problems.

You seem to have a very warped view of writing.

The concept of writing a story includes constructing scenes that interrelate and support each other. That is part of creating a well crafted story. That also means the reader cannot easily determine the start and end of scenes they may not want to read. There are no codes to Warn a Reader that they are reading a story that is well written because that is the goal that a good author attempts to achieve.

If a reader is bothered by sex scenes then they should not read stories that are coded as containing sexual content. If they choose to read such stories, then they shouldn't complain when they encounter sexual content. If they choose to skip over a well crafted sex scene, they may miss information important to the rest of the story and they may have problems understanding portions of subsequent scenes.

You were quoting me and adressing me. This was the first of your comments directed at kov170.

We were all doing the same thing (attacking each other for something kov170 said). What kov170 said wasn't that unreasonable, but he didn't grasp the original post which upset him, so we were all throwing punches left and right, and missing our original target.

Most sex scenes can be skipped without losing a lot, but there are some stories where readers won't be interested in the sex (despite the tags), but which still contain items which can't be skipped. The end point which started the entire back and forth was that you can't categorize ALL sex scenes with the same blanket statement.

Some scenes are more ... unusual than others. And sometimes, when you jump to conclusions, you miss the boat, falling over the far side.

My stories are unusual, and it's a compliment that readers uncomfortable with incest scenes would still want to read the story. However, you can't expect to skip entire chapters without possible missing something. My objection was never the reader's right to skip a specific scene, but that I was tired of readers complaining that the story no longer made sense after they skipped an important scene.

Including significant discussion of plot-related information during sex scenes does not make explicit descriptions of sexual acts significantly less gratuitous.

I, of course, disagree with you here. While I agree with it being a 'no-win' situation for those who don't like the sex scenes, I've learned that there are many character revelations which simply never occur (at least with me) unless I put the characters in bed together. Thus, if I want them to open up about their lives and their concerns, I'll let them concern their innermost demons when they're at their most vulnerable.

But really, who the hell reads an incest or harem story and then skips any descriptions of the advertised sexual situations? Instead, I continue to see it as a mood-disorder. If you're not in the mood at the moment you read the chapter (i.e. your hubby won't leave you alone, or you just had sex), then you simply don't bother to care about that aspect at those particular moment.

Besides, the stories with those long-discussion sex scenes are my highest rated stories (probably because my characters are more fully explored, rather than those in my 'no-sex' stories.

Essentially, my confession was a 'see what you're missing when you bitch about the creative process! If you don't like the result, the don't criticize the process!

As do I, but if the errors are so significant or numerous that it significantly impacts on the readability of the story, then it impacts on my enjoyment of it. And I score it accordingly.

Promising readers can always learn how to write better. If more people read those promising stories, the authors are more likely to get offers from qualified editors. However, if you rate any story with typos or grammar errors poorly, the promising author has NO incentive to continue, learning what they don't know at that moment in time.

We also have to factor in the fact that some writers aren't fluent in English or it is a second or third language for them.

I know at least one author like that. For instance, while his English is fine, he refuses to use contractions—which make his writing appear stilted. Often, foreign language speakers can read English fine, but will get subject/objects reversed, or who can't figure out the subtler aspects of English construction or the beauty of nuanced writing.

he refuses to use contractions—which make his writing appear stilted.

In the past, contractions were not used in the narrative. They're not used in formal writing and the narrative part of a novel was formal (of course dialogue was how the character spoke).

When I started writing fiction, I followed that "rule." Then I realized modern fiction (at least genre fiction) uses contractions so I switched.

It's funny you used the word "stilted." A while back my wife decided to re-read an old classic (remember, she was an English Literature major). I think it was "Madam Bovery." She put it down saying the writing was stilted.

In the past, contractions were not used in the narrative. They're not used in formal writing and the narrative part of a novel was formal (of course dialogue was how the character spoke).

The change (in writing styles) occurred because fiction authors used to believe in 3rd-person omni stories as being 'told from the voice of God, who knows all things'.

That approach has fallen out of favor, and now many view formal writing to be a reflection of an upper-class education and background (i.e. wealthy whites only, others need not apply). Instead they started writing with different narrators (other than God), and they gave each narrator a more informal speaking style.

While good grammar helps tell the story, we do need to be careful not to become too hung up on it.

That's why those of use who barely understand English grammar hire grammar Nazis to rip our story to shreds before we painstakingly put it back together again.

I agree, authors shouldn't focus on grammar and typing, instead concentrating on story development and plot issues. However, they then need to work overtime during the editing stage to make up for it.

When I read and write I expect proper grammar in the narrative,

Good, but please remember there are different versions and forms of proper grammar. There are some subtle differences between what is seen as proper grammar in Formal US English and Formal UK English, there is also a difference between Formal English and Vernacular English. Most of the time I write using proper Vernacular UK English because the Formal or Technically Correct English is too stilted for good story telling, thus I reserve it for text books, other academic works, and official reports.

Try reading each chapter aloud for your final edit.

When I have problems with a story's grammar, that is usually one of the things I suggest to the Author.

When you read a story from start to finish, you tend to develop momentum and that momentum can lead you to overlooking errors; especially if you subvocalize what you are reading.

My suggestion to Authors is to read the story out loud, without subvocalizing it, and to read the story one paragraph at a time from End to Start. That prevents momentum from being developed.

For my stories, I have a regular editor, two proofreaders (sequentially), and about 300 early readers (about 1/3 of those via Patreon). I STILL end up with some glaring errors when I post them to SOL!

Same here. I always beg people to report errors in a blog post when I post a new story. I doubt I have a single chapter that isn't at least version 1.02 even with three of four editors.

No mistake is harder to catch than one you make yourself.

I STILL end up with some glaring errors when I post them to SOL! And that's after I've read them all through AGAIN after editing.

For me, it's those 'last-minute corrections' which get me into trouble. While I can spot a LOT of issues reviewing chapters long after I've written/edited them, but I inject almost as many errors as I correct.

When I posted a story with NO last-minute corrections at all (i.e. no last-minute reviews), I only got a single correction send in by a reader, along with a note that the story was 'much cleaner than the majority I read'.

When I think about all the writers here that actually try to produce quality work, and put in the effort to get things right, it chaps my ass to see their work get much lower scores than this slipshod mish-mash. It just ain't right.

The flip side to all my previous posts about 'giving new authors a chance' is based on the desires of the author in question (which readers can't really know). If an author wants to improve, they can. If they have no desire to improve, then they won't. However, if an author 'doesn't know what they don't know', then they'll never understand that they need to improve.

That's why it's important to call people on specific errors. Point out that an author confuses "your" and "you're" and see whether they improve. If they don't, you have my blessing in writing them out of your writing cannon.

Likewise, criticizing someone with 'let he is without sin' on a forum post is overly critical (as they likely aren't editing their posts), while pointing out their mistakes i considered fair game.

It's considered 'gentleman jousting' when you make fun of another's typos, but insisting that no one is ALLOWED to make typos is typically beyond their control!

That's why it's important to call people on specific errors.

I was enjoying a story that kept switching tenses which drove me crazy (Ernest, is that "drived me crazy"? being factitious so no need to reply).

So I sent the SOL author feedback and got a very nice thank you the next day. There are plenty of authors wanting to improve.

being factitious so no need to reply

Does this mean "full of facts"?

bb

being factitious so no need to reply

Does this mean "full of facts"?

Nope: It means "face full of tits"! 'D

If they don't [improve], you have my blessing in writing them out of your writing cannon.

I'd be more likely to fire them out of my writing cannon. Probably using adverbs in place of gunpowder.

bb

One can only imagine the hilarity that would have ensued.

That's why Hillary never had sex with Bill, and why he then got in trouble for whoring around with interns!

Sex has a definite place in fiction, and those who poo-poo sex are doing themselves a disfavor, just as those who criticize others for their personal failings do. It's not your initial limitations which define you, it's you're inability to progress beyond them that do!

That's why Hillary never had sex with Bill

Chelsea?

My brother was married to a woman who ended up leaving him for another woman after four kids. He complained that the only time they ever had sex was when she was drunk.

When it comes to appreciating a story, which is after all a SUBJECTIVE opinion, the scoring is as wildly inaccurate as anywhere else.

Amazon has had no end of trouble with their scoring systems too, though they tend to bury the discussions quickly. You more often hear about author scoring manipulations than 'reader confusion' over scoring.

Whilst taking authors to task, justified or not, isn't as likely to impact sales.

I often question the validity of a commercial venture's rating system when the system focus's on the products the venture is selling to the public. So, no I don't think you are being cynical; probably more in-line with realistic.

I'm unaware of Amazon scoring, what does seem logical is it would make little commercial sense to take readers to task as they buy the product. Whilst taking authors to task, justified or not, isn't as likely to impact sales. Or am I just being cynical?

You want to keep readers happy, otherwise you won't have a site for long. As for authors, they're an incidental concern, as they don't bring in money, yet their stories are what draw the readers to the site (i.e. you only deal with their concern after the fact). Generally, we're happy we can post at all, and are especially happy that Lazeez is so responsive to our needs. We bitch like crazy, but we're not about to leave town (especially now that alternatives, like ASS#!, is no longer active)!

By the way, anyone notice that the-site-which-shall-not-be-named is slowly posting a few new stories every day. I'm not sure what their current status is, but it's ... encouraging?

In either case, there are a boatload of Unibombers out there holding down authors of stories they don't fancy.

The situation Harold is we have 1-bombers who give every story a rating of 1 without even reading them; they have one or more loose screws in their belfry. The rest of us have rationales for how we vote, both good and bad rationales but they do have the right to express their feelings about the stories.

We have readers who handout 10's because they like the Author or the genre. They don't care about the quality of the story. We have readers who refuse to vote regardless of what they think of the story. We have readers who won't finish a story that sucks and will only vote on stories they finish. We have all sorts of readers practicing different voting schemes.

The bottom line is the story ratings don't mean a hill of beans. They are meaningless numbers because they are extremely subjective. Part of that is there are no standards defining what the various ratings mean; but if we had standards, most of our readers would ignore them.

There is no way that a rating should be "holding down authors". If an Author wants to write they will. Anyone who becomes an Author should be aware that they will get criticism. An Author needs a degree of self confidence to put their work out for the world to read. An Author survives by saying "to hell with what you think, I like it and you don't have to read my stories, so don't". If an Author quits because of a rating, I personally believe the Author was looking for phrase and gave up when they failed to receive it.

The situation Harold is we have 1-bombers who give every story a rating of 1 without even reading them;

I initially tried to switch off voting on my latest story but the wizard was too smart for me. As a result, the prologue got 1-bombed - possibly on the basis of the title alone.

AJ

I would humbly suggest he simply remove their 'right to vote', since they clearly do not deserve it.

Even if he knew someone was a 1-bomber, I doubt he would disenfranchise them.

Just a reminder. The rating system is intended to allow the reader to provide an indication to the Author regarding their opinion of the story, and feedback messages allow the reader to explain why they liked or disliked the story.

Sorry, but you're wrong here. Story scoring wasn't instituted to help authors, but to aid readers. Author's bitch about it, because they view it from a different perspective and lens than readers do. There's really no way to merge the separate functions in a way which pleases everyone—which is why Lazeez got tired to listening to us bitch about it!

Sorry, but you're wrong here. Story scoring wasn't instituted to help authors, but to aid readers. Author's bitch about it, because they view it from a different perspective and lens than readers do. There's really no way to merge the separate functions in a way which pleases everyone—which is why Lazeez got tired to listening to us bitch about it!

Sorry, I keep forgetting who's interests trumps who's around here. But yeah, the readers interests are more important than any other group, since they're the one's supposedly paying the bills.

readers to find quality stories and feedback is hints to authors what to improve or what was great about a story.

Ratings help readers find good stories and let the Author know your level of satisfaction with the story. Think of it this way, if you went to a movie that had a poor plot and poor acting but you found it entertaining would you give it a 10, when a 10 means the movie is entertaining, has a good plot, and good acting.

You would be doing a disservice to other movie goers who see your 10 rating and say he rated it a 10, so it must be an outstanding movie.

Every reader is free to use whatever criteria they choose when awarding a score.

Precisely the point I was making to Seanski1969. Sean said he gave everything a 10 and looked for 10 rated stories to find something good to read.

I created an example and defined a rating scale to demonstrate why giving everything you read a 10 may not be the best idea, and that he couldn't trust a 10 rating to mean the stories he selected to read would be what he thought they would be.

I'll usually qualify those as "10/10 for mindless entertainment

I rarely go to a movie theater. I consider "Hollywood" jumping on the bandwagon of cursing, poor/inappropriate plots, do-overs of previously released movies, and other things to yield a product that I have no desire to view in a movie theater at an exorbitant price. I have far better uses for my time and money.

You are right about "anything". I apologize for misstating your earlier comment. Although it seems I did get it right in the example.

we are all free to vote anyway WE(as in me, myself and I) wish too!!!

Since that echoes my sentiments, I have to agree with you.

I drive a pickup, and I am free to control it in any manner I feel is appropriate. I can do 15 mph in a residential zone or 85 mph. Just because I can do 85 doesn't mean it is a good thing to do.

All readers have their own means of rating stories. I have been trying to point out to you that a 10 for a story you like may not be helping the Author. But, if that is what you want to do, you have the right to do it.

And lets be honest here that the majority of authors do look at their scores and care about them. They also know when a story works or doesn't.

Unfortunately, knowing what does and doesn't work isn't true of the majority of Authors. It is true of many, but not the majority. You said "The ones with the bad grammar, spelling,etc. either don't know English or are just lazy or too dumb". That applies to many of SOL's authors. I've given feedback to many authors. Some respond positively to my comments about their problems, many ignore my comments and continue to post stories with similar problems. I have lost track of the number of times that I have suggested that the Author get an Editor to help improve the story.

As you should have realized, the example was sarcasm meant to demonstrate we all have the right to do things, and we don't always do appropriate things when we exercise those rights.

I thought I might have been sent to the Big House

Nah, I sincerely doubt that. Possibly the outhouse. :)

But seriously, we all have a scoring system that we like. You have yours and it works for you.

No offense intended to you personally, but earlier in the thread, you said:

The ones with the bad grammar, spelling,etc. either don't know English or are just lazy or too dumb

I've heard that type of comment before about Authors and it irritates me. Think about the "just lazy or too dumb" part of your statement. In other threads there have been comments from Authors about readers who just give a story a 10 because they like the story or the Author. I don't want to go there, but the comments were made about a different subject that concerned how unwarranted 10s skew the average rating of a story thereby affecting the validity of a story's average rating. On Lazeez's scale a 10 rating means - Most Amazing Story. If you just like a story does it really deserve a 10? Or is it that you can't be bothered to determine where your opinion of the story actually fits on Lazeez's scale?

Personally, if I just like a story it gets a 7 which equates to Good. You can do what you want.

Personally, if I just like a story it gets a 7 which equates to Good.

If everyone did that, the final score of the story would be less than 7 (not 7.00). Several people on this forum stated they don't bother reading a story that has a score of less than 7.

That's one of the problems. In this example, everyone liked the story, but because the final score was lower than 7 (Good), many people would never read it.

So getting back to trusting the scoring system...

I believe people who reject a story based on that criteria are doing themselves an injustice.

If everyone did that,

7 is the rating for a story I just like. If I think it is great or outstanding, it gets a higher score. If I don't like the story I give a lower rating, but if I don't finish it, no rating, but possible feedback.

Ratings are based on personal likes and dislikes, how they interpret the rating system, and other possible factors.

Peoples' rationale for how to choose what they read is their decision. Some people may rely solely on ratings, or factor them in, but I would never use that in deciding if I should or should not read a story.

7 is the rating for a story I just like.

The point I was making is that you liked the story. Therefore it was a good story. Now if 100% of the people who voted on that story felt the same way, the raw score would be 7.0. However, the listed score will be 6-something.

There are people here who won't read a story with a score below 7.0. That means they'll be missing out on a story everyone who voted liked.

Now if 100% of the people who voted on that story felt the same way, the raw score would be 7.0.

As a hypothetical possibility, that is true.

But reality says, not all readers are likely to enjoy the story to the same degree and they all have their own opinion on how to rate a story when the degree of enjoyment is the same. Thus, an average raw score of 7.0 is very unlikely.

There are people here who won't read a story with a score below 7.0

That is true and their decision will result in them missing out on many very good stories.

As a hypothetical possibility, that is true.

But reality says,

Of course. But I was making a point about the OP (trusting the scoring system).

Let's say a bunch of readers gave varying scores that averaged to a raw score of 7.0. In SOL terms, that's a good story. And maybe that's why some here say they won't read a story that scored under a 7.0. After all, that's the bottom grade for a "good" story.

But the reader doesn't see the 7.0 so they could be missing out on a story the average reader thought was "good."

My only point was that a reader should be careful ruling out stories by some number. Don't necessarily trust the scoring system to reject a story. There are so many factors that come into play.

As to scoring stories you like high and not scoring those you don't like (probably didn't finish) is one of the causes of the problem with the scoring system. I'm guilty of it too. Because of that, the scores across the board were too high so Lazeez had to manipulate the system to accommodate it. If every reader scored every story they started, and gave an honest score, that would alleviate that problem.

But is it fair to score a story you didn't finish? What if it ended up great.

The bottom line is, "it is what it is."

Sounds to me like a Very Good way to make a selection as to what to read.

There may not be many Readers that judge stories by scores, but they do exist. But if they miss out on reading a good story because they put the rating before the rest, that is their problem, not ours.

If every reader scored every story they started, and gave an honest score, that would alleviate that problem.

I think we are pretty much in agreement, although I would probably disagree with you on the above.

When I feel a story is so bad that I bail on it due to content rather than grammar, I feel that rating a story would be inappropriate. So if I were to rate the story at that point, I might give it something like a 3 or 4 on the basis that if it were so bad I couldn't complete it, the story deserved a very low score. Now if all readers were to do that, it might offset all those undeserved 10s.

Lazeez's rating scale does not have numbers beside the descriptive terms, so for the longest time I thought of Good as a 5. To me, Good equates to Average, and I think of Average as a 5. I know it isn't so, but every time someone says they won't read anything that has less than a 7 rating, I interpolate between 5 and 10 and ask myself why they won't read something less than a Very Good story.

As you say It is what it is.

When I feel a story is so bad that I bail on it due to content rather than grammar, I feel that rating a story would be inappropriate. So if I were to rate the story at that point, I might give it something like a 3 or 4 on the basis that if it were so bad I couldn't complete it, the story deserved a very low score.

I've used this real life example before, but it relates perfectly to what you said and how the scoring system is intended (based on Lazeez's answer to the question - see below).

I got feedback once about a story I wrote. The reader said it was so well written he couldn't finish it. It hurt him to read it. He worked with abused children and I guess my child character was so real he had to stop reading.

He told me he was torn between giving it a 1 (because he hated it to the point he had to stop reading) or a 10 because it was so well written. He chose a 10 because that's how he determined the scoring system should be.

But I was curious so I asked Lazeez. After blowing up about only 2 choices (1 or 10) since he gives readers 10 choices, he said, with only 2 choices the reader should have given it a 1. It isn't the quality of the story, but how it appeals to the reader that determines the score.

Folks, that's the key! Appeal! Nothing to do with quality, grammar, punctuation, etc.

---------------

btw, the story wasn't about child abuse. It was about how drug addiction could take over your life, to the point of a drug addict mother giving her little girl to her drug dealer. If the reader would have read it to the end, the little girl saves the mother.

Folks, that's the key! Appeal!

True, but I think quality, grammar, punctuation, etc. influence the Appeal to the reader.

Perhaps, but the degree to which it does is going to vary from reader to reader.

Very true. One of my favourite authors never uses contractions, and that makes most of the dialogue seem extremely stilted an unrealistic. That detracts a little from my enjoyment of the story, but I still enjoy the story a lot.

I agree if the Author's descriptions and/or codes indicated the type of story being posted. I that case I would just exit the story without rating it.

If you have read a bit of the story before the objectionable content is discovered and there was no code indicating it was included, then it would be understandable to feel the Author mislead you. In that situation, I can see down-rating the story.

If you have read a bit of the story before the objectionable content is discovered and there was no code indicating it was included, then it would be understandable to feel the Author mislead you. In that situation, I can see down-rating the story.

And, thus, we come to one of the aspects by some authors I don't like.

Before you start to read a story you look at the codes and the story blurb / synopsis / summary to make a decision about reading it or not reading it. Once you start the story you either bookmark it or leave it up in the browser so you can continue reading from where you left off. While reading the story you don't go back to see if they changed the blurb or the codes.

Yet there are some authors who will add codes as the story progresses. Thus you get no warnings before you start, this is especially annoying if what they add partway through is something that would've stopped you starting it to begin with.

I had that with one story where the author argued putting in all the codes would give away a key part of the plot - then he bitched because so many people who got caught by the uncoded segment quit partway through and gave his story a low score because of the unexpected squick stuff.

The adding of codes as they write is another reason why I no longer read stories until after they're finished being posted, with a few exceptions for authors I trust to put all the codes in at the start, the same way as I do.

A detailed explanation of why I feel down-rating a story is justifiable if the code isn't there when I decide to read the story. Authors who withhold codes they know apply have to accept any consequences.

Not a problem.

As the Author we know what will unfold to the reader as we post successive chapters, and we know the codes that apply.

We can withhold a code to keep from giving away a surprise. But at the start of the story, the reader does not know how that code will apply to the story's content. It may apply to the main characters or to just a subplot in which the main characters do not participate.

Besides, most readers who look at the codes do so to determine if they want to read the story. They forget how the story is coded by the end of the first chapter. So personally, I don't believe that providing the code upfront destroys the surprises in the story. By providing all codes upfront, a reader can tell if certain aspects of the story's content will be objectionable to them. Suddenly encountering uncoded, objectionable content will be a surprise - an unpleasant surprise.

readers who act all unpleasantly surprised by coded for content

As Authors, we can only do so much.

If we code the content properly, and they fail to read the codes and look up any codes they don't understand, then the onus is on them. I refuse to accept any responsibility for their failures to look for and understand the coding presented to them.

As Authors, we can only do so much.

If we code the content properly, and they fail to read the codes and look up any codes they don't understand, then the onus is on them. I refuse to accept any responsibility for their failures to look for and understand the coding presented to them.

Very true, and as long as you've coded all of what is in the story it's their problem and not yours.

Suddenly encountering uncoded, objectionable content will be a surprise - an unpleasant surprise.

I had that happen in chapter 20 of a story, and not only did I give it the only '1' I've every issued, I stopped reading, and have that author marked as to never read any of his stories again. That may sound severe, but when they have extreme torture and BDSM suddenly thrown and an no codes to indicate any extreme violence, well, they get what they asked for by doing it.

However, no matter how appealing the subject matter, if the story is filled with misspellings and grammatical errors, I won't read it. If the author cared so little about his story that he didn't submit it to a competent editor, why should I bother reading it?

Read the OP again. That was his point. The story referred to scored in the high-8s yet it was nearly impossible to read. doctor_wing_nut's point was a story written that poorly should never receive that high a score, hence don't trust the scoring system.

In some cases they are in dire need of a dictionary, let alone an editor, but, if the story is that appealing, it deserves a 10

Totally disagree. It can't justify an "Amazing Story."

Folks, that's the key! Appeal! Nothing to do with quality, grammar, punctuation, etc.

Totally disagree. It can't justify an "Amazing Story."

It's the way the scoring system is set up and how many SOL readers use it. However, I totally disagree with any scoring that would give a poorly constructed story a rating of "amazing."

If the story is barely readable due to all the errors then the appeal is going to be very low.

Read the OP. My comments were directed to that.

I don't give too many scores lower than 4.

Likewise. I've been on the site for over 7 years and I can only recall rating 2 stories less than 4.

The point I make with my 10's are too raise the scores of stories which I find other readers would enjoy

Others can make what they want of your statement.

To me, that comment means you are taking the position that your opinion of a story that you like should guide the decisions that other readers make when they consider ratings in choosing what to read. So, since you want others to read what you like, you intentionally skew the story's average score by giving it a 10.

I would rather have readers rate my stories honestly, rather than get 10s for an okay story that is not great. A false 10 would result in a higher average rating, which could mislead a potential reader.

In both cases the readers will rate the story on how much they liked it, not on how well it was written technically.

There's not really much else that can be said on that aspect that's of any use to anyone else.

The only exception I would take to that EB is that for some readers the technical aspects of a story is part of their rationale for liking the story. They factor technical into the rating they assign the story, so how well it was written technically does mean something to them. Other readers don't care about technical and don't factor it into their rating, which is okay also.

many write as they go

and if introducing something uncoded at the start seems a good idea because they didn't plan the story, well, they get to live with the consequences when the readers score it.

but the acts are not depicted.

which means the code isn't needed. The codes for sexual activities are for listing what is graphically described, while some of the other codes are for the type of story - eg Western, Science Fiction etc.

There's also some situations with characters of not quite age, but the ages are never explicitly stated and the action appears off camera, only referred to in past tense general descriptions, one character to another.

The rule says In other words, all characters that engage in any sexual activity must be 14 or older. And Lazeez has often stated he refers to graphic descriptions of the activity in rule 7 on the age. Thus a statement of, "She was raped when she was ten years old," is legal while a detailed description of the rape would be against the laws and the rules. The same applies to all the other sexual activity and nudity rules. I suspect it comes back to the legal definitions of salacious.

I didn't use rape/murder tags. I of course recognize that these are shocking and sensitive, but the acts are not depicted. The main character is distraught and tells the general story of what had happened to his cousin two years before. What's told in the story is basically what appeared in the newspaper account.

Nope! Those tags are exclusively for stories which detail rape and/or murder expressly for the kink thrill that some readers get from it. If the act is not depicted, then you'd never code for it.

If I read the first two pages of a long story, then drop it for whatever reason and never come back to it, again, for whatever reason, I can't tell you what it 'deserves', and I will not vote on it.

And thus we have stories like the one in the original post getting a high vote simply because the only people who voted are those who don't know how bad it was. At least by voting low on it you're showing there are issues with it.

... a 25kb story with a hundred-thousand downloads but only 53 votes

Back on the old news group board we had a lengthy thread on the ratio of votes to downloads, and found, on average, only about 1 in about 250 or more downloads result in a vote due to many factors - such as re-reading a story still only gets one vote. I get many emails about people saying they just read a story of mine for the fifth or sixth time, I know I read some stories many times, especially older stories I like.

I know my own stats are not typical of SoL, but my lowest scoring story is a short story of 42 kb with a score of 5.88 - 2,973 downloads, and 34 votes (a vote for every 87.441 downloads). While my highest scoring story is a short story of 34 kb a score of 9.23 - 30,281 downloads and 3,062 votes (a vote for every 9.889 downloads). For comparison I have 105 stories with a total of 2,698,502 downloads and 80,365 votes or a vote per 33.578 downloads. The story with the highest number of votes is 1,437 kb - a score of 8.55 - 258,654 downloads and 2,225 votes (a vote for every 116.248 votes). An intriguing stats is the number of Libraries the story is in, and a story of 1,406 kb has a score of 8.16 - 242,210 downloads and 2,445 votes (a vote for every 99.063 downloads) which is saved to 1, 025 libraries. These are all good an interesting stats, but what do they tell you about the story?

My latest story is 274 kb has a score of 7.84 - 51,300 downloads and 1,634 votes (a vote for every 31.395 downloads). The story it's a sequel to is 273 kb has a score of 7.84 - 70,447 downloads and 2,508 votes (a vote for every 28.088 downloads).

The only things I'm sure are:

1. the longer a story is on the site the more downloads it gets,

2. and the more votes it gets, and

3. The better written and more interesting it is the better it scores.

edit to add: It's only when replying to posts I look at the stats like this, and it amazes me some of the things I see when I take the time to analyse the stats for such discussions.

Back on the old news group board we had a lengthy thread on the ratio of votes to downloads, and found, on average, only about 1 in about 250 or more downloads result in a vote due to many factors - such as re-reading a story still only gets one vote. I get many emails about people saying they just read a story of mine for the fifth or sixth time, I know I read some stories many times, especially older stories I like.

Not quite. There's a very high correlation between the percentage of reader votes, those who support the site and those who purchase the published books. Each are around 3%, which indicates that 97% simply won't do anything, regardless of how good or bad the story is.

Back when I was playing around with foreign languages, I'd post something to ASS*# where the file wasn't coded correctly, and I'd only learn the chapter was completely unreadable weeks later. Obviously, not a single reader in those cases cared enough about the story to give a damn about whether it continued or not. That was primarily why I stopped posting there.

However, the 3% is a general figure, as many of those who respond to stories do so precisely because they can't support the author, or don't feel qualified to evaluate the writing. Thus they'll do one instead of the others, but still, the general 3% figure seems to apply to the majority of situations.

However, the real core of the problem is very few people who drop a story because they can't finish it will score it, and thus only those who do like the story, warts and all, will vote on it. As a reader, to be fair to other readers, you need to vote appropriately on any story you read beyond the first page, or all of it if it's a short story. If it deserves a 2 or 1 , vote accordingly, also if it deserves an 8 or a 9 vote so.

Except then, you've converted the story score into a pure download count (i.e. if you READ the chapter, you've already voted so why bother finishing it?).

Most here, but especially the authors, prefer readers making informed opinions. If a story is in a subject which doesn't interest them, or it doesn't get around to the subject that does interest them soon enough, then why should they vote on it after only a single page? Many stories develop slowly overtime, as the characters learn more about the situations they face. My stories all have relatively weak beginnings, as they're all about figuring out the problem, rather than defeating the bad guys. In short, they're about the journey, rather than the destination (though everyone likes scoring on the final destination, which is fine by me as long as they don't score on a story they never cared about in the first place!)

Because of the descriptions attached to scores, I picture scores as following a distribution vaguely resembling a bell curve with the highest part of the curve somewhere around seven ("good").

A bell curve implies symmetry, but a story's actual score distribution curve tends to be asymmetrical. Looking at my stories with a score round about the median value (about 6.5), the actual peak is around 8. There are also usually 'false peaks' at 1 and 10 due to reader biases (1-bombers and fanbois).

AJ

Oops, my mistake :(

AJ

There are other readers who, when they come across the first grammar error give the story a 1-bomb.

I've NEVER encountered those. Usually, the 1-bombers have a clear agenda. Either they disapprove of gays, perverts, or they have a particular political persuasion and refuse to allow anything they don't personally approve of to pass unpunished. Those 1-bombs rarely have anything to do with quality of writing or the strength of the story. As least, given my experience with 1-bombers, that's how it plays out.

There needs to be a zero score to give to alleged stories that aren't.

If it isn't a story you can report it to the Webmaster and he can pull it if he agrees. In the past he has done so to other such posts. However, Lazeez is good about allowing some non-story posts that relate to stories, especially those providing background information to a series as well as poetry.

"you call this a story?"

Means "this ain't no story."

alleged stories that aren't.

An unusual double negative. It sounds like you could be saying the 'alleged stories' aren't alleged which would mean they are actual stories. :)

There needs to be a zero score to give to alleged stories that aren't. Not to pick on anyone, but instructions on how to start a fire, or recipes, or texts that don't include characters, or a plot, or go anywhere (no ending, just stopping) shouldn't be posted as stories. I know "1" is for "you call this a story" but that score leaves the impression it is being evaluated as a story. I am not normally a one-bomber but I would be willing to be a zero bomber for "stories" that aren't.

Actually, that's not a bad vote. You should suggest it to Lazeez. Not a Zero vote, but a 'no value' vote, meaning the author doesn't think the story worthy of a vote, because the story wasn't worth reading in the first place.

That way, the author would be warned they have a specific issue without weighing in on the value of a story you never even bothered to read.

I'd support that as an option. As an author, I'd like access to that kind of information.

Using that formula I today found a story that had a grade of 7.69 and began reading. The story had all the attributes you mentioned. Missing words, wrong words (chauffer for chauffeur when speaking of a driver), change of person from 3rd to 1st and then back, sentences that had been corrected and both versions left in and others. This story had an editor that was given accolades in the synopsis for "for editing the main story, to make it a better read." God only knows what it was like before.

Just because an authors has an editor (or more) doesn't mean he accepts their advice. Frequently, it's a matter of style, but often, they'll keep their favorite passages whether they work or not, simply because they don't want to restart from scratch. You really can't judge an editor by a single finished product. Then too, you also can't judge an editors worth based solely on an author's opinion, as authors very often are poor judges of what are valid 'fixes' to a story. It takes a lot of experience to know the intricacies of grammar, styles and techniques.

You judge editors by the balance of their work, not by the single misstep of their clients. That's akin to rating teachers by the misdeeds of a single problematic child. Chances are, the kid was a poor student who never listened to the teacher in the first place. :(

Just because an authors has an editor (or more) doesn't mean he accepts their advice. Frequently, it's a matter of style, but often, they'll keep their favorite passages whether they work or not, simply because they don't want to restart from scratch. You really can't judge an editor by a single finished product.

That is true to an extent and we can never know which of the above applied but some of the mistakes would have been hard for a competent editor to miss, such as missing words, wrong words, etc. I always was blessed with good editors, and there are some really fine editors that volunteer here, and always used a proofreader as well and in the end acknowledged that the final product was mine and I was responsible for the overall work. After all of that I still spent time correcting copy with errors that readers would find and I don't believe I have posted a story that doesn't have at least one redo of each chapter. The thing that made me quit reading was not being able to respond to the writer. His or her choice of course and many writers have valid reasons for not wanting feedback. If the piece had not had so many errors and a seeming lack of concern on the part of the author then I may have continued to read it.

Al Steiner made a comment in his blog about not wanting feedback on grammar etc. but mentioned that he is willing to discuss plot, character development, etc. The difference is that he is established and explained the limitations in advance and his track record is such that I doubt I will find more than an occasional error.

Al Steiner made a comment in his blog about not wanting feedback on grammar etc. but mentioned that he is willing to discuss plot, character development, etc. The difference is that he is established and explained the limitations in advance and his track record is such that I doubt I will find more than an occasional error.

In terms of spelling, grammar and punctuation, I found the start of his latest story to be very good. But they're only the first level of criteria a competent editor should be concerned about.

I personally don't like prologues, but in this case I think there's a good case for AS putting all the tedious brain-dump exposition into a prologue so that Chapter 1 actually starts the story. As creative writing course-junkies have drilled into them, if you're going to start your story with a brain dump, put it in a prologue that readers can ignore or skim through it as they wish.

AJ

what's normal grammer for one of us is not normal for all of us.

very true, I come across that all the time in the stories I read. Even in the USA there appears to be differences in grammar between different region, y'all can be sure on that.

Even in the USA there appears to be differences in grammar between different region, y'all can be sure on that.

Even though we all live in the U.S.A., doesn't mean we all agree on the serial comma, or even the same Style Guide. Differences in Styles are unique to each author, are have nothing at all to do (well, maybe a little) with where they live.

I'm not a fan of the under age Sex in some of the stories,, that some of you write ..but the rest of the Plot might be great.. and the bunnies are still living on the mountain...

Ha-ha! Not on mine. All the bunnies died on David's mountain hideaway, along with all the main characters!