I was just reading the blog entry by SciFurz.
I can't abide by the rules here. I need to work at my own pace and choose what I release when.
The only thing I can even guess is that the author is upset about is rule 17:B. If that's so, then I suggest everyone that does Patreon go do some research on how real book company contracts work. If not, then I'm not sure why anyone would complain about the rules here being onerous.
The only thing I can even guess is that the author is upset about is rule 17:B.
Even that doesn't require that he write at a specific pace. The requirement is about how much is posted here vs how much is available to his patrons.
Even that doesn't require that he write at a specific pace. The requirement is about how much is posted here vs how much is available to his patrons.
In other words, the author was taking longer than a full year before publishing subsequent chapters. If that happens on Patrean, then it would likely NEVER be finished, which would sink their Patream rating!
I checked out his twitter. It's definitely about rule 17:B and not at all about writing pace.
storiesonline won't let me link to my blog because I have an Amazon link there, and now they say I violate the rules because I'm not posting close enough to my Patreon according to their demand.
I think I'll leave that site alltogether.
Welcome to the real world, and how it doesn't always work according to you.
Welcome to the real world, and how it doesn't always work according to you.
I actually like and have been following his A Monster Life story, but my response to his little tantrum is the same as my response to the local sports team threatening to move if they don't get a new, government funded, stadium. "Sorry to see to go. Do you need help packing?"
I suspect that he thinks this will get some of his SOL readers to follow to his Patreon site and sign up as patrons to keep getting the stories. I think he will be disappointed.
my response to his little tantrum
This ought to give you a chuckle. I'm disappointed in myself because this is now the third time I find myself completely agreeing with you. What's the fun in that? I normally ENJOY arguing with you about things.
:)
There's a very good reason I like Bookapy and how Laz runs things. We get a MUCH higher percentage from sales than Amazon, and I actually TRUST Laz not to screw us out of what we earn. I've read too many accounts from others how Amazon has just closed things and then kept their earnings. Don't get me wrong, I don't have an issue with people supporting someone on Patreon. There's a webcomic that I support, for $10 a month. To me, it's worth it. But I CHOOSE to do so, not because the writer and artist threatened to pull their comic because they were upset how they didn't agree with the rules.
I'm disappointed in myself because this is now the third time I find myself completely agreeing with you. What's the fun in that?
LOL
There's a webcomic that I support, for $10 a month. To me, it's worth it.
I don't have the disposable income to engage in that kind of patronage without some kind of ROI.
I've looked at a couple of patreon sites and I wouldn't consider it an acceptable value proposition at anything more than $0.05/month.
I don't have the disposable income to engage in that kind of patronage without some kind of ROI.
We quit going out to movies, don't go to expensive restaurants to eat out, and I can't even count my hobby as a hobby any longer (playing no-limit Texas Hold-em) since I make more than I lose at that, so ...
Last quarter's Bookapy money paid off my car, so I don't even have that monthly payment. I drive a 2014 Subaru Impreza and it's got 65,000 miles on it. The wife gets the new car, and when we go to trade it in her current car (it's on a lease), it's got about $6,000 worth of equity due to the used car market right now, so that won't be an issue, either, as far as monthly expenses.
For those of you who are wondering about that - when you lease a car, at the end of the lease, you have four options:
1) Trade it in on a new one.
2) Buy it yourself for the residual value, which is set when the lease starts.
3) Sell it, pay the lease off, and pocket the difference.
4) Pay a lease disposition fee (typically $300), hand them the keys, and walk away.
Where this becomes important is if you're in an accident. The value of the car will be much LESS than the residual amount, so you pay the disposition fee and walk away.
Where number 3 is important is in the market right now. Subaru is one of the few brands that the value at end of lease is always higher than the residual, but it's typically only $1,000 - $2,000 (depending upon the model). Now, with the new car factories STILL shut down, the residual value is STILL fixed - what the bank wants to pay off the car. But the CASH value on the car is stupid - $6,000 more than residual.
We found that when we sold my mother-in-laws car when she went into assisted living. She paid $27,000 for it in 2017. We sold it for $22,000, and it had accidents on the CarFax.
I feel like Patreon (and the like) were initially billed as allowing/encouraging micropayments of that $0.05/month level. However, that's not how it seems to be used now.
I suspect (but could be wrong) that quite a few Patreon creators would do better at $1/month or less, and with a wide base, than $20/month with the scant few who would pay that much. Maybe not, though. We've created a culture where some sorts of content are devalued (in the minds of many people) simply because so much reasonably good content is available for free (and those of us posting to SOL are contributing to that). Nothing wrong with that - I made the decision to post in advance of deciding on monetization, and it's my work, so I make that decision - but it does have impacts down the road.
If everyone kicked in a small amount ($0.10/month), it would probably be better for everyone than a few people kicking in $5/book or whatever. But we don't have that world right now, and the shift required is a cultural shift, not just financial-system support for micropayments.
I feel like Patreon (and the like) were initially billed as allowing/encouraging micropayments of that $0.05/month level. However, that's not how it seems to be used now.
I support a number of people at $1/month on Patreon, so the option exists, the creator just has to exercise the option to make it available.
As to the less than a dollar option. That probably has to do with the credit card companies and how their fee structures are setup. Patreon does try to aggregate the payment to all of the authors you sponsor into a single payment when it comes to the monthly subscriptions. But IIRC there is a minimum service fee charged by the credit company, and then they take a percentage cut after that. (I think there is some provision where the minimum service fee is just that, a minimum so the cut taken won't increase until the % cut exceeds the minimum value) And because Patreon is taking their own cut out of things as well, they take their own cut out of what their creators get.
So with that said, I'd suspect Patreon probably doesn't allow for anything lower than $1. But I could be wrong, haven't asked any of the Patreon creators I know if they can set it any lower. In any case, even if they could, it probably isn't much below $1.
Looking into it a bit further, I'm providing a link which goes into things in a lot more depth. Seems the minimum fee's have gone down from what I remember a number of years back, but they still exist, they just seem to have settled in at around 10 cents(well, as much as 20 cents when you consider the parts involved) plus their percentile cut of the transaction itself. (This is also why some businesses have a posted minimum transaction value before they will accept a credit card transaction, they've determine any sale below that value is likely to put them near neutral revenue, or even into negative income if it went through)
https://www.fool.com/the-ascent/research/average-credit-card-processing-fees-costs-america/
Yes, I know a fair bit about credit card processing fees (a couple of my volunteer-work efforts involve taking payments, and I've had to search through payment processors looking for the best option a few times). One way to handle microtransactions is via taking a pool of money from customers (e.g. 'Patrons') and using it to fund microtransactions, refreshing the pool only when it drops below a threshold. Even at a $10 pool, the credit card fees become manageable, and if you pass fees on to the customer, they can determine their level of overhead (set a larger pool - fewer transactions and less overall overhead).
Yes, billing a card for small amounts is a terrible idea, but microtransactions would be wonderful if available with low overhead.
One way to handle microtransactions is via taking a pool of money from customers (e.g. 'Patrons') and using it to fund microtransactions, refreshing the pool only when it drops below a threshold. Even at a $10 pool,
Your idea works well for our automated toll system here (the DoT bills your card when your balance drops below a defined amount, which you control).
I suggested this to Patreon three years ago. It would solve the problem of declined charges at renewal time and would also allow them to change from 1st of the month billing to anniversary billing.
Patreon has done nothing. Well, not quite true — they had several failed changes which would have been solved had they implemented the 'poo' idea.
I still haven't done anything to monetize my writing (yes, I know, I should ...). But even if I was, I'd prefer the system here. You're giving up a bit of potential value (sales on other sites) in exchange for great exposure to readers. Having to keep your postings current is a reasonable tradeoff (and, perhaps more important, the one Laz chose).
I support a few things on Patreon, including at least one author I found via SOL. I do so because I enjoy their writing. I don't actually read the advance content I have access to because I don't really read serials.
For anyone fair-minded, it seems to be that examining the counter-argument ("What if there was no rule 17.B) is interesting. I would imagine that people would be far more reluctant to read serials on SOL (unless there was a mechanism that amounted to something like 17.B - some notification that the author had put the story 'on escrow' inside SOL or the like, for instance). The value of the site would drop accordingly. Bad for Laz, and bad for authors, too.
I suspect (not having gotten in this position) that I would be more annoyed by an author who posted half a story and then said "pay me $10 to get the rest" compared to an author who posted half a story and then said "sorry, my muse fled, no more story for you".
If you post here, my opinion is that you're implicitly promising that, if/when the story is finished, you'll post the whole thing here under the same terms as when you started. Don't like that? Don't start posting here.
For anyone fair-minded, it seems to be that examining the counter-argument ("What if there was no rule 17.B) is interesting. I would imagine that people would be far more reluctant to read serials on SOL
The effect might actually be the opposite.
What a lot of authors complaining about rule 17.B don't understand is that 17.B is not a new prohibition, it is actually an exception to rule 6 allowing SOL authors to use support sites like Patreon.
Rule 6: Teasers and blackmail are absolutely prohibited. (Teasers are any story parts that require or entice readers to read preceding or following parts on other sites or purchase those parts or sending money for further postings.)
And IIRC, rule 6 goes back almost to the beginning of SOL.
Absent rule 17.B an author who has even a single chapter available on a Patreon account that's not already posted to SOL would be in violation of Rule 6.
I don't see Rule 6 as prohibiting posting on Patreon, etc, as long as one still posts to SOL. If the SOL posting neither mentioned ('enticed') Patreon et al, nor was SOL posting interrupted or significantly behind the other sites, Rule 6 wouldn't be violated, would it?
Rule 14 (SOL being allowed to 'catch up' by posting content from other sites) is likely a bigger issue overall.
The one thing 17.B adds is a two-installment clarification. Without it, it's unclear exactly when Rule 6 triggers, but I don't think it would trigger if postings were kept in sync.
@Dominions Son
This ought to give you a chuckle. I'm disappointed in myself because this is now the third time I find myself completely agreeing with you. What's the fun in that?
The bastard did it to me recently, some kind of despicable plot, to be sure.
Shit..!! Now I'm agreeing with you..!! Maybe it's a virus?
:)
I suspect that he thinks this will get some of his SOL readers to follow to his Patreon site and sign up as patrons to keep getting the stories. I think he will be disappointed.
In that case, he was probably doing what many SOL/Patreon 'authors' do, post a few chapters to get fans interested, then slow to a snail's pace hoping to encourage frustrated readers to 'invest' in a never-ending story on Patreaon!
That's guaranteed to get you banned on SOL.
That's guaranteed to get you banned on SOL.
Yep and he apparently got a warning from Lazeez on it and decided to take his ball and go home rather than waiting for Lazeez to ban him.
If not, then I'm not sure why anyone would complain about the rules here being onerous.
Maybe this site needs to institute a hurt feelings report system.
Rule 17b was in place when he chose to start posting his 'A Monster Life' story, and he was aware of the rule. Apparently, there are unposted chapters complete and available on Patreon. How much time and effort does it take for him to post the completed chapters of the story to SOL - maybe 5 minutes and a minor amount of effort. It seems to me that his failure to comply with 17B is a form of coercion to make the SOL community go to Patreon to read the latest chapters.
I read all the rules carefully before I began posting here. I have enough personal honor to live with them. Some apparently don't. They should consider how their actions are perceived. At a minimum, a manifesto final post should be avoided.
I read all the rules carefully before I began posting here.
The rules have changed since I began posting here (and to Bookapy). Each time I've had a cordial conversation with Lazeez to ensure I'm in compliance. He is reasonable and responsive.
If you want to use support sites such as BuyMeACoffee or Patreon, you are free to do so, so long as you comply with the rules. I've encountered exactly zero problems with any WLPC offerings despite great success with patronage sites.
I'm extremely happy with Bookapy — I make money and Lazeez makes money so he can keep the WLPC sites running.
And, as other posters have pointed out, an "I'm taking my ball and going home" blog post is usually counterproductive.
It's never a cause for rejoicing when a very good author decides to leave
He's a skilled author. I won't call him good when he's leaving because he is pissed off that he's not allowed to blackmail the readers at SOL into paying him through Patreon.
I find the Rules for authors here to be quite reasonable. 17B has influenced my decision to Not to try to get any money for my writing. Because of where I live, and technical issues, I currently must make a 100 mile round-trip to post my stories/chapters.
Perhaps if I was making some money from my writing, I could afford to post from where I live. 8-P
Since at least once a week I drive in to an office where I can post my stories, I am not currently prepared to buy a new computer, and re-purchase some of the software I am using.
I suspect that if I do decide to publish, and my circumstances caused me a delay, Lazeez would likely be more forgiving than Paying Customers would be if my health issues, or other commitments caused a delay.
I suspect that if I do decide to publish, and my circumstances caused me a delay, Lazeez would likely be more forgiving than Paying Customers would be if my health issues, or other commitments caused a delay.
Possibly. This isn't to impugn Lazeez at all - I suspect he'd be quite forgiving about health or transportation issues - but 'Paying Customers' on Patreon, etc, are - in my experience at least (as a fan/follower/observer, not as a creator, since I haven't 'done' Patreon yet) - generally 'fans'. Fans tend to be forgiving when the creators they follow are human and deal with health and other issues.
Where you get in trouble with fans (again, in my observed experience) is when you go in a direction they don't like. After all, they're funding you - perhaps they have a claim to expect more of what they're paying for.
Some (many?) crowdfunded bands have expressed this. The more new material differs from the band's historic output, the more some of the paying customers get restless. But, have a health crisis or the like? Fans feel good about 'helping you out'.
After all, they're funding you - perhaps they have a claim to expect more of what they're paying for.
Actually, the online webcomic I support just sent a question out to his supporters, asking what new incentive we'd like to see from him. Basically think what Mat Twassell puts on here, except done professionally, as far as the actual comics are concerned, using full 3D software with appropriately detailed backgrounds and such. Plus an actual storyline, too.
17B has influenced my decision to Not to try to get any money for my writing.
Bookapy ... it's already on here, and there are no requirements to stay within a couple of chapters. You set the price, and basically get 80% of what it makes per quarter, less PayPal fees.
When Banadin moved the Richard Jackson stories to pay only I bought one and to be honest I felt cheated, story was shorter then the free ones and didn't enjoy it as much. Then the later ones the price went up to $6. He said he would post the stories later on SOL but so far only the "Oxford" one was posted since then.
Then there is Al Steiner coming on to SOL to announce after years of waiting he was going to write the 3rd Intemperance book but only if you pay $1 per chapter on Patreon.
He said he would post the stories later on SOL but so far only the "Oxford" one was posted since then.
https://storiesonline.net/s/25289/the-richard-jackson-saga
has the first 3 books being posted
has the first 3 books being posted
Yes I know that but as I said in my post nothing past Oxford.
He reposted these early stories twice before and I think it was to drum up interest in selling his later stories which I have no problem with. The problem I have is in his blog he talked about posting his later stories on SOL when his sales go down but instead he reposts early stories.
One of the main reasons I didn't buy his books was he broke up the first 4 stories on SOL into 7 books for sale.
I see 2 issues here:
A. The initial story division weren't all that smart in the way they were done, so when he prepared them for sale he adjusted them better. I can't remember all of the original titles and how they broke up, but I do remember a couple of the very early stories did get rolled into one book.
B. Current posting system is the story is written, edited, then posted to Bookapy and Sol for about a month before it gets pulled from both and sold via Amazon. If the book is bought from Bookapy you can always download the latest version there, regardless of if it's been pulled from new sale or not.
For example of this: Books 9, 11, 12, 13, and 14 are in my Bookapy bookshelf available for redownload but not available for sale to new buyers. _ done forgot to buy da others, although I do have copies from when they were on SoL in a combined epub I made from the Sol files.
C. When he said he'd repost the early books he did start to post them as individuals but then changed that to do them as anthologies of a few books together so their titles would be a bit different to the Amazon ones.
edit to fix typo
For example of this: Books 9, 11, 12, 13, and 13 are in my Bookapy bookshelf
That's funny. I have 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, and 14. Somehow I missed 13 you mentioned twice :D
Somehow I missed 13 you mentioned twice :D
Thanks, have fixed typo - now you know why I need editors.
IIRC Banadin's initial Rick Jackson postings were by year/grade - 9th Grade, Summer Vacation, 10th Grade, etc. But when decided to post them to Amazon, he split the grades up into multiple books (as could be seen with his recent repost of "Books 1-3" on SOL, covering RJ's ninth grade).
Additionally, after "Oxford", book 9 I believe, Banadin would blog that each of the later books (10 thru 14) would be available on Bookapy for a short period before having Lazeez take them down, per his contract with AZ, when they were hosted there..
(as could be seen with his recent repost of "Books 1-3" on SOL, covering RJ's ninth grade).
Book one was the first summer story and 2-3 were only 2/3rds of 9th grade with the 4th book the end of 9th grade. "Oxford" was book 8.