Forum: Author Hangout

As a reader I see a lot of stories where the percentage of sex scenes and the descriptiveness gets less and less towards the end of the story, which in most cases makes a better story.

On the other hand, shrinking later sex scenes is not a successful formula for erotica.

AJ

I suspect that's key. We all chase those essential first experiences, and gaining them, continually try to recapture them with additional firsts, till those too wane. A few will continue, seeking those same firsts with more and more individuals, but most romances ebb and flow over time, shifting into and out of one particular form of love and lust after another, each uniquely intimate in its own way. However, those who continually seek the exact same first experiences nary grow at all, never moving beyond that first first experience, and thus never gaining the more mature intimacies over time.

Any story concerning an individual's personal growth should focus on the latter advances, and much if not more than the more inconsequential early daring deeds, lest them be deemed enjoyable but ultimately insignificant.

There may be a lot of authors who are not very good at writing sex scenes, but I remain unconvinced that there is anything different or special about sex scenes that makes them any more prone to becoming "redundant and boring" than any other kind of scene.

That's certainly true, but keeping an extended story on track with the tension dialed up is sometimes a tough cookie to carry for long.

Mid-story blues and bad endings are notorious for beginning or mid-level authors, and if someone is writing a Day-in-the-Life story, when they wrap up one conflict, it's often difficult smoothly transitioning into another. So 'redundant and boring' segments are often the rule, rather than the exception. That doesn't mean they won't pick up again, but longer stories increase the plot difficulties.

"...And then they lived happily ever after."

That's the literary equivalent of a pilot leaping out of the plane with the only viable parachute and shouting "Have a nice flight, suckers!"

Hey, it's better than the author getting sick and tired of spending so much time trapped with their characters and writing "And then a meteor crashed and they all died. The End"

"And then a meteor crashed and they all died. The End"

A long time ago, in a universe far, far away, I belonged to a writing group that used to write round-robin stories (each member present wrote a paragraph in ten minutes then passed it on to the person sitting next to them). One story was turning out to be a humdinger when we ran short of time and decided on one last round before reading out the stories. The unfortunate member tasked with finishing the story concluded with 'then she slipped and fell into the bog and drowned', "she" being an intrepid heroine who had previously overcome all kinds of villainy.

That ending became legendary.

AJ

Hey, it's better than the author getting sick and tired of spending so much time trapped with their characters and writing "And then a meteor crashed and they all died. The End"

Yes, you and Rev_Cotton are correct, there are much worse ways to end a story. That said, endings are notoriously difficult for many authors. Since I typically write towards a specific endpoint, I've never struggled much with that, but for the stream-of-consciousness authors, it's often difficult finding a way to wrap everything up neatly.

It took Neal Stevenson, what, six published novels before he learned how to end one. And a couple more to write a good one.

It took Neal Stevenson, what, six published novels before he learned how to end one. And a couple more to write a good one.

That's the point. Endings are not a simple thing to pull off, and it often takes a LOT of experience to master, either the successful ending or the Middling Middle.

And in my case, although I've never had problems grappling with endings, my openings have always been notoriously weak, so we each have our unique strengths and weaknesses.

In the end, any of those can wreck to story. A weak ending, while disappointing, it better than a book unread, or even worse, one set aside midway through the story and never picked up again.

Saturday and Sunday are the week end.

Not in Iran.

Here's why I think they're more prone to becoming 'redundant and boring.'

Consider an analogy: a coming of age story where the character is learning to drive: checking the mirrors, seat belts, learning where all the controls are, starting the car, switching gears, tentatively venturing forth, slowly gaining confidence.

That's your average early sex scene, especially in coming-of-age stories, but it often feels like that's true in many stories.

The thing is, authors almost never delve into the minutia of driving on subsequent outings. But many feel compelled to get down and dirty every time their characters go to bed together, or at least a significant number of times.

If the sex isn't growing and changing and developing, or the bedroom conversation interesting, it's not adding to the story, it's repeating the story. Unless it's a stroke story, move along, give me the next interesting thing these characters do.

A good sex scene might encourage readers to spank their monkeys.

A good fight scene won't encourage readers to punch themselves in the face ;-)

AJ

I never got that urge reading here on SOL

I hope that's not true of all readers. Older males particularly should flush their prostates regularly to reduce the risk of cancer, so it would be nice if reading erotic SOL stories came with health benefits ;-)

AJ

Not the sort of difference that would support the OPs contention.

Again, if you use the same approach for writing a fight scene, as you would a fishing scene, you're obvious asleep at the wheel. The two are diametrically opposed, and require different techniques.

For the 'old-school' romance novel, the love scenes were similar to fight scenes, lots of shadowing references with few detailed descriptions of the sex act. But now, with everyone watching exclusively porn outlets, sexual descriptions have become the equivalent of IKDEA furniture description (ex: 'Girl A grabs 8" code, pumps it while sucking him, guy gets excited and SLOOOOOOWLY inserts GIGANTIC 8" cock and ...'). So it's easy to see how such scene can quickly get out of hand, as that's certainly NO description of lovemaking.

The better stories will have just enough romance for the ladies, just enough physical descriptions for the visually minded males, but not spend overly long on either one. The time to wax lyrical is afterwards, when the two lovers are cuddled up together, reflecting on their relationship and have the foresight to wonder where it's going.

A good sex scene might encourage readers to spank their monkeys.

A good fight scene won't encourage readers to punch themselves in the face ;-)

But ... a good S&M scene might have them punching themselves in their junk for the grand (not so happy) finale!

A reader who self harms because of a single story they read online

Isn't 'self harming' another euphemism for spanking the monkey? I'd have thought many of the authors here would love to know their stories caused some monkey spanking.

AJ

I have found myself thinking fight scenes are boring for exactly the reasons you state - repetitive and offering little or nothing toward character development or plot advancement.

The whole idea of fight scenes is that they're generally not terribly thought out or choreographed. And typically, they're over before anyone is quite sure what the hell is going on.

That's part of my 'fog of war' strategy for writing fight scenes. Skip descriptions of everyone's facial reactions (i.e. NO showing), keep the sentences incredibly short (think of someone in the middle of a fight stopping to give a long monologue during the action, and that applies to the narrator too), and keep both the reader and characters guessing.

Since there are few fights which unfold like the old-fashioned 1950s westerns, usually one guy surprises the other, and then in the flurry of punches, no one is really sure wtf anyone else is doing. However, another FOW technique is that often there's a quick adrenaline rush, and when that kicks in, generally the mind goes into overdrive, so the character won't see what's actually happening, but will notice all sorts of unimportant details, like the curtains billowing, the reflection in the broken mirror, or during actual war scenes, the shrubbery rather than the actual combatants.

Then, when the fight ends (making for a VERY short chapter), the characters can gather afterword to figure out what the hell happened, as they try to assemble the pieces from their various memory snippets.

That approach has always worked or me, simply because it is the polar opposite of 'long and boring'!

But many feel compelled to get down and dirty every time their characters go to bed together,

You're missing the point of a good sex scene.

It's not just the sex. It's the emotional aspect of it (nervousness, desire, love, lust, etc.) and often the emotion after the sex (regret, more love, etc.). It's the relationship between the characters (learning, advancing, experimenting, jealousy, etc.). It could even be an aspect of the plot (forced sex, prostitution, illegal activity, sacrifice, trickery, humor, etc.).

The problem is you're judging sex scenes by poorly written sex scenes.

If more sex scenes had those aspects I would stop skipping most of them. Unfortunately those are gems among a lot of same-old-same-old.

The key is NOT avoiding sex scenes entirely, but to remember those few authors who have a real flare for writing them. Then, when those authors write a sex scene, but when the others are just tossing in the newest underaged girl into a group scene, head directly for the next chapter.

In my case, I discovered that, if you really want to understand your characters, you throw them into bed together. Have some hot, rough sex (which finishes quickly), and then see what the characters reveal about themselves once they let their guards down and finally begin speaking honestly. Those are typically the most insightful moments, particularly because it's when the authors themselves first grasp what's actually motivating their characters.

However, with most SOL readers, as soon as they see a description of two characters undressing each other, they flip immediately to the next chapter, and then spend the next three chapters complaining that 'nothing makes any sense' after they skipped the whole previous chapter! (P.S. That's mostly why I've curtailed most of my sex scenes, because a very vocal minority always gives me grief over my story 'skipping over' essential details.)

But sometimes it's fun yanking your chain.

On a less serious note, the discussion has been of some use to me in deciding hypothetically (because it has a low probability of being completed and published) whether the story I worked on last week merits a 'rape' tag.

AJ

I don't know your scene

Scenes plural. The male protagonist is 'violated' multiple times. And he has a 'happy ending' each time.

AJ

The SOL rape tag is only for violent rape.

I'd like to swerve the 'rape' tag: a lot of readers pass on anything bearing it. But what does 'violent' mean? What if the rape victim is physically restrained against their will, but there's no punching, slapping, kicking, throttling etc involved?

AJ

causing or threatening physical harm to force the victim to cooperate.

That is not the case. So if you're right, I can use 'NonConsensual' rather than 'Rape'.

AJ

But what does 'violent' mean?

I interpret that as the victim physically fighting back.

I interpret that as the victim physically fighting back.

He tries, but is unable. Two votes against 'Rape'!

AJ

Drunk/Drugged One party at least is Drunk or drugged and participates while under the influence without really knowing

Drinking is a special case, as it's not uncommon to have two intoxicated people going at it with glee. The 'consensual' aspect is the ability to consent, not whether they're drunk or not (i.e. passed out or unable to object is a clear crime).

When the line gets close, it's tough because the tag could run off some readers it shouldn't and the lack of it could squick others whose definition is less tight.

That's when you pull out your 'consensual rape' tag! It won't work anywhere else, but SOL readers will recognize it and either gravitate towards or away from it.

'consensual rape' tag! It won't work anywhere else

Except the "consensual" and "rape" could be in different scenes with different characters. Having the two of them doesn't mean "consensual-rape." It means the story contains both consensual sex and rape. That's why my novel "High School Massacre" has both "consensual" and "non-consensual" tags. It also has the "rape" tag, but those scenes have nothing to do with the consensual sex scenes.

I think VB is proposing a new tag for 'consensual rape'. We are plumbing murky waters indeed.

AJ

But in general, I would not support going there.

Me neither. A note in the story description would be better.

ETA - I just remembered a story for which that tag might be appropriate: 'The Midnight Game' by Tessa Void.

AJ

I think I disagree.

We seem to be discussing SOL's intended meaning of the word 'violent'. Lazeez must be tearing his hair out ;-)

AJ

On US college campuses today, that would be considered rape. :)

Almost anywhere. Sex with somebody unconscious or sleeping is rape.