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The Richest in the U.S./World

PotomacBob 🚫

Business publications, such as Forbes, provide periodic lists of the wealth of individuals. Rich people move up and down on the lists.
For a story, how do people who don't want their wealth to be known avoid making those lists?

Replies:   John Demille  bk69  Radagast  Remus2  REP
John Demille 🚫

@PotomacBob

In cases where the person's net worth is intertwined with ownership of a known property, like Besos and Amazon, or Gates and Microsoft, it's hard to avoid those lists. And since it's public info, it would be silly to try to hide it.

But, if you're not in such position, you don't declare your net worth to anybody; keep it a secret.

There are a lot of people with private companies who's net worth is unknown. For example Dell. They went private, so what's the owners' net worth now? One can estimate, but can't know.

Think of those who own the federal reserve (it's not the US government). They basically really own the money itself. They can literally give themselves as much as they would need. Do you know who they are? Do you know what they're worth?

Replies:   Uther_Pendragon
Uther_Pendragon 🚫

@John Demille

Think of those who own the federal reserve (it's not the US government). They basically really own the money itself. They can literally give themselves as much as they would need. Do you know who they are? Do you know what they're worth?

While, technically, the Federal Reserve is owned by "member banks," this is hardly a group of "people."
Also, yo conflate "own" with "control."
The Federal Reserve is controlled by the Federal Reserve Board. That is nominated by presidents and confirmed by the Seate.

bk69 🚫

@PotomacBob

Lazlo Zalezac did that story... Reset Manifesto.

People that own a shitload of real estate and artwork and bearer bonds and extreme high end jewelry can be worth billions easily. But if no one property is so prominent (and if enough shell corporations and family trusts and other legal entities are involved to confuse the exact holdings) nobody will know the exact holdings.

Radagast 🚫

@PotomacBob

Those lists deliberately don't include dynastic money. So the Rothschilds, Saudis, the dethroned but still wealthy European aristos are not included.

Radagast 🚫

Also, its not just the known 'names' that excluded. I used to socialize with a Japanese business executive who was looking after his families local business interests. He was a Samurai by birth and training. The company was international in scope with well known brands. He served his family for two years amongst the barbarians before going home to marry. I've never seen the family name mentioned in any business media.

The cult of celebrity was manufactured / ramped up in the 60s & 70s to divert any external attention from the wealth class. Kidnapping for ransom and assassination for political purposes was becoming a problem,the kidnapping of John Paul Getty is an example. So dynastic families removed themselves from the public eye and the society pages became the celebrity pages. The celebrities are nouveau riche who crave attention or need publicity to sell their brands and are willing to risk becoming targets.

Lord Mountbatten was blown up in 1979. These days terrorists blow up Ariana Grande concerts.

Another way the very rich reduce their risk is to pretend to be twerps. If the public doesn't respect them and put them on a pedestal then they aren't as valuable a trophy for an assassin.
Prince Charles did this through the 70s & 80s. He was and is always going to be King of Great Britain, Australia, Canada & New Zealand. Naval commander, jet pilot, successful businessman who took over the bankrupt Cornwall estate and made it profitable enough to pay all of his public costs. By presenting himself as a tofu & mung bean eating, slightly batty greenie he took the target off his back and was able to go around in public when he desired.
Bill Gates did the same, the nerd rocking backwards and forwards with anxiety in the congressional hearings, who was slapped in the face with a cream pie on the street in a totally not prearranged photo-op, who just happened to fall in love and married his secretary in an arranged dynastic marriage to the daughter of the founder of IBM is also the man who ruthlessly destroyed any business opposition and has spent 20 years paying off governments and the UN to implement his population control policies.

Remus2 🚫

@PotomacBob

how do people who don't want their wealth to be known avoid making those lists?

The same way many lottery winners hide their fortune from the public. Private shell corporations. When most folks hear the term, visions of shadows and skullduggery dance in their head. While some morally challenged individuals do use the same methods to hide illicit gains, not all shells are the same.

Replies:   JimWar
JimWar 🚫

@Remus2

Corporations are by definition public and registered in a state or country with the owner listed. A shell corporation is essentially a public corporation that has no or very few assets and conducts little business sometimes owning shares of other corporations or partnerships.

Some states allow lottery winners to remain anonymous and most do not. You can contact a lawyer (required to set up corporations in most states as the registering agent) and a business manager to manage the corporation but unless you turn over ownership to someone else your required annual meeting and registration renewal will reveal ownership to the secretary of state of whatever entity the corporation is registered in and the ownership will usually be available on the states website.

Replies:   Remus2  richardshagrin
Remus2 🚫

@JimWar

That's not entirely true.
https://www.investopedia.com/financial-edge/0712/a-look-behind-shell-corporations.aspx
Where it would be true, is if the entity was used for investments. Where it is not true, is when it is used to control assets or trusts.

richardshagrin 🚫

@JimWar

A shell corporation

They sell gasoline. "Royal Dutch Shell PLC, commonly known as Shell, is an Anglo-Dutch multinational oil and gas company headquartered in The Hague, Netherlands and incorporated in England. It is one of the oil and gas "supermajors" and the third-largest company in the world measured by 2018 revenues. Wikipedia"

REP 🚫
Updated:

@PotomacBob

For a story, how do people who don't want their wealth to be known avoid making those lists?

They hide the details from the public. In my story The Footlocker, Elsa had 2 financial empires and access to Nazi war loot. Her 2 empires were each worth billions, but her involvement with her empires was not promoted publicly.

1. She never revealed her access to the war loot to the public or any government agency.

2. She operated her US financial empire as separate privately-owned companies, each company reported its income to the IRS, and Elsa reported the income she received from each company. She didn't publicly discuss or intentionally promote her ownership of those companies. Toward the end of the story, she created a foreign corporation and turned ownership of her companies over to the corporation; she owned the corporation. She also took actions that would result in her not having to report her business dealings and income to any government.

3. She operated her European empire using a business manager. Most of the income was donated to charitable organizations. The rest was reinvested in new businesses. She reported her ownership of the empire to the IRS, but received no reportable income from this empire. Toward the end of the story, she severed her relationship with this empire.

With this type of business structure, it was very difficult to link her financial holdings and determine her networth.

irvmull 🚫
Updated:

Let's see what this "internet" thingy can tell us:

AT&T is a pretty big business, right? So...

Q: Who owns AT&T?

A: Lots of people, but Vanguard Group is one of the major stockholders, with about $16 billion worth.

Q: Who owns Vanguard Group?

A: Vanguard has ~$6 trillion in assets. The company is unusual in the fund world in that it is owned by its different funds, which are in turn owned by the company's shareholders.

Q: Who are the shareholders?

A: Vanguard is technically a non-profit, so there are no shareholders per se. However, anyone can be a partial owner by buying a Vanguard mutual fund or ETF. Who are biggest owners then? No one knows because the company does not have to share such data.

Vanguard has 10 people on its board of directors. Nine of them own no Vanguard stocks whatsoever.

If you own shares in a mutual fund, the only people who need to know are the IRS (if you have a profit or loss) and they are not supposed to leak that info.

Now, this part is just speculation, but I think it's safe to say that the "owners" of most of that $6 trillion in assets are not individuals, but corporations and trusts, which in turn have shareholders/trustees, whose names are also kept confidential. Rinse and repeat.

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