Forum: Author Hangout

I'll try to follow your your advice, even if it's hard to wait.

My main advice is - don't rush to post the story until you have it the way you want it.

Just to give you an example of how things don't go as you think they will and it is the opposite of being able to add supporting content to earlier chapters that haven't been posted.

I've worked on my current story for about a year. I thought the first 5 chapters were in good shape, so I sent them to be edited. Jim7 told me Chapter 2 was too slow and boring. I knew that was true of the first 2 chapters, so I wasn't surprised. You can usually get away with the first chapter being slow, but after that the reader want the pace to increase.

I fixed the chapter by deleting a lot of the detailed information about the topic he mentioned, however I still need to pass it back through Jim7 to see if it needs further improvement. I think most of what I deleted is important, so I saved it and will now have to integrate it into later chapters. Of course I mentioned some of it later chapters to refresh my readers minds, so I may only have to beef up those scenes.

If Jim7 had said that about a later chapter, I may have had to move the deleted content to earlier chapters to build up to scenes. If I posted as I wrote, I probably wouldn't have been able to do that.

PS - I also use the deferred chapter posting system Ernest described. One thing he didn't mention is you have to upload the first chapter and then wait until Lazeez posts it. Then you can upload your remaining chapters and assign them 'no sooner than' posting dates.

Just to give you an example of how things don't go as you think they will

I'll give another example.

When I wrote "Matilda and the Assassin" I expected to write a series of stories with Matilda as a child assassin. I wrote in a character called Crash simply to provide her a driver for those future stories (she was too young to drive).

However, while writing the story, I got attached to Matilda and wanted her life to be different than that of an assassin. The plot's climax didn't change, but the ending did. So I had to go back and develop the Crash character more to support the new ending.

There are a lot of incomplete stories on the site due to people having issues with where the story is going or real life getting in the way.

Where's the like button for this one?

Before I started writing for on here - and even afterwards - I can't begin to count up the number of stories I've started, only for them to suddenly stop. And then to have the dreaded "Incomplete and Inactive" eventually show up.

What's also scary to me is that, in sitting here thinking about it, I also realized how many years I've actually been coming to this site.

No, but I am a good way ahead on the tale and have a good idea how it will end.

It's always important to 'write to your ending', so each plot development helps move the story along. Subplots are fine, but they need to ultimately feed into the central plot, either providing clues or in terms of character development.

Unfortunately whilst the ending is set in stone, the character development in the story due to sub-plots and the occasional whim (or bright/not so bright ideas) means that the people/race/god involved in the ending have changed. I just had a better idea is all.

Unfortunately whilst the ending is set in stone, the character development in the story due to sub-plots and the occasional whim (or bright/not so bright ideas) means that the people/race/god involved in the ending have changed. I just had a better idea is all.

Understandable. Things happen (in stories, as in RL). That's why revisions are often necessary.

Unfortunately whilst the ending is set in stone, the character development in the story due to sub-plots and the occasional whim (or bright/not so bright ideas) means that the people/race/god involved in the ending have changed. I just had a better idea is all.

While writing A Well-Lived Life, I've been writing towards a very specific end (revealed in prologues) which has hamstrung me from time to time when I get 'better' ideas. It's a fun and interesting challenge to change the ending without changing the ending. :-)

It's one reason my other stories in the same general universe don't have published endings before they've even begun! :-)

I've always had trouble with scene transitions, especially between compressed and decompressed time. So often I'll find that a scene is dragging on pointlessly after accomplishing all it needs to, but I'm having trouble ending it, so I'll just hit the eject button, move on to the next bit, and come back and smooth out the joints later.

That's generally a problem associated with writing 'a day in the life' chapters, where you simply follow the character, and there's no real beginning and ending points. It's a typically starting point for most authors.

You run into this less with 'episodic' chapters, which each chapter is centered around a specific episode, or a series of related episodes, even if they take up more than a single day.

When you take this approach, once you finish with the specific episode, and accomplish the point the episode was intended to highlight, you're done! No need to continue.

Or I'll be cruising along and change my mind on something that affects continuity chapters back, and rather than break my flow with what I'm doing to go back and rewrite the earlier section, I'll just flip back and drop in a "--FIX ME--", and continue with what I was writing, and go through later to clean up the timeline.

That's why I prefer handling continuity issues during a separate revision phase, after the entire first draft is completed and you know what the story covers and where it's heading. That way, you're aware of which scenes really don't add much to the story, or which simply never 'played out'.

So the upshot of all of this is that my works-in-progress generally aren't a story that's complete from the beginning to some point somewhere in the middle, after which it hasn't been written yet. They're disconnected chunks of more-or-less polished text with gaps in between, and even the parts that are written are subject to change later on. I don't have anything that could be posted until it's almost done.

I know this isn't your style, but just as a learning experience, you may want to try revising one of your shorter stories. You don't need to complete the revision if your books are all too long, but merely seeing what effect it has on the overall story, and how many things ultimately become largely irrelevant and a story progresses is important to realize. If nothing else, it'll help guide you as you write 'on the fly'.

I'm one of those poorly disciplined souls who writes and posts, a chapter at a time.

It's not an uncommon approach, especially on SOL, though it has it's pitfalls. Readers, particularly, seem to appreciate this approach, as it generally produces much longer stories, and hey, if you like the story and the character, you want it to continue indefinitely, right?

It particularly important for new authors to get something up and in front of the public quickly, so you can determine which aspects of your writing are successful, which aren't, and you get positive feedback, which generally motivates you to continue.

While that works well with short stories, those who prefer more-involved stories, or long series, they often get caught up in simply 'keeping the story going', rather than moving the story towards a predefined ending.

I can see why completing stories before posting them should produce better quality results. However, I can see a case for an author posting their first long story as it's being written: the immediacy of the feedback they receive from that might help produce a better quality second story.

I'd agree with both points, but I'd urge newbie authors to limit the scope of their first work so they can ease into writing, rather than writing their magnum opus in their very first attempt.

That doesn't mean they need to start out writing short stories, but try to keep it within the twenty-some chapter range, at least. Then, once you've got a better feel for what's involved, transition to a longer piece.

I'd agree with both points, but I'd urge newbie authors to limit the scope of their first work so they can ease into writing, rather than writing their magnum opus in their very first attempt.

I think that really depends on the person. I'd never written any fiction prior to starting A Well-Lived Life. I just started writing and, well, now I'm on book 10 of series 2.

In general, I think you might be right, but if a story 'has to be told' then it has to be told.

I think that really depends on the person. I'd never written any fiction prior to starting A Well-Lived Life. I just started writing and, well, now I'm on book 10 of series 2.

That's true, about a story demanding it's own space, but I'd also remind you, that a series is entirely different (i.e. it fits into my 'limit the size of your first post') than an endless ongoing SOL series, as you've already divided it into manageable pieces.

The idea, though, isn't to limit newbie authors, but to start slow as you get a feel for the place (SOL) and until you get a feel for what works and what doesn't. However, as a longtime reader of long series, my first piece was a 6-book, 1,1 million word story.

Most of us like to imitate what we read most often, so that tends to temper 'keep it short' suggestions.

I am aware of one author here who has one story they "must tell". It's autobiographical. They wrote and posted ten chapters, then realised they now knew how to do much better, so they went back and started it again.

The author made significant progress towards telling the story they wanted to tell, and learned valuable lessons on the way. That wouldn't have happened if they'd started with a short story they weren't motivated to write in the first place.

AJ

The author made significant progress towards telling the story they wanted to tell, and learned valuable lessons on the way. That wouldn't have happened if they'd started with a short story they weren't motivated to write in the first place.

No, (but Since Ross was referring to my comment) I never suggested they start off with short stories, only that they test the waters first. The unnamed author did what I'm suggesting, though they went about it the wrong way. After starting, they realized what they'd done wrong before completing it, and then went back and started again, reposting a revised version. If you check out my new response to Ross, that was my revised suggestion, that rather than penning a complete 100 chapter epic, that they start with a 'sampler' of that epic before committing to the final product.

But again, that's what I'd do now, not what I'd did when I first started.

I imagine you, CW, have revised the first book of your Catalyst series very extensively since you completed your first draft.

That what was what I'd intended, Ross, (that new authors realize they'll learn a lot, and thus should limit their initial postings somewhat until they learn the lay of the land). However as you suggest, I revised my initial series a couple of times before I finally finished it (and I'm still planning yet another rewrite). Yet, when I first posted it, I'd already broken up into separate stories, worked out the story with several editors, gotten and considered their input and had already revised the first story. Even after all of that, I felt it necessary to go back and restructure the whole thing.

Now, many authors are like I was, they're planning to write a single epic tale, much like their favorite stories here on SOL, that go on and on (50+ chapters). I don't mean to limit them, but instead I'd suggest that they try writing only a sample of the total, just to get their feet wet. Then, after posting that version, and learning their many painful lessons, then start their huge epic under a NEW TITLE as a complete work (ex: "1st post: "A New Epic Sampler", followed by their 2nd: "A New Epic").

This isn't intended as a 'teaser' for readers, but instead as a way of easing into being an author before committing to a single approach.

That said, I'm not expecting many to follow in my 'take it slow' approach, as everyone starts with great expectations and want to take the world by storm, but ... after writing as many stories as I have, I'd now prefer that I'd started a little differently.

Keep in mind, when you finish a story before posting it, and post a chapter at a time over some period, readers will inevitably send feedback while you're posting with how they want/think the story should proceed. You have to tell them the story is already finished and can't be changed.

Excellent point, Switch. I'd actually like to see a new story tag/flag for stories that are completed, but still posting. That way, readers will know before they start any given story whether the story is likely to ever finish or not.

I generally find that, stating that a story is 'completed' encourages those who normally don't read anything until it's finished posting, to take a chance with an ongoing story. And the benefit there is, they often provide active feedback on specific chapters in the story, so you can see what works and what doesn't.

That way, readers will know before they start any given story whether the story is likely to ever finish or not.

I usually put a statement to that effect in my blog. Unfortunately, many readers don't read blogs. :(

I usually put a statement to that effect in my blog. Unfortunately, many readers don't read blogs. :(

I put a similar statement in my stories' End Notes. Readers won't see it when they first considering the story, but after the finish the first chapter, they're likely to notice. It's as close as you can get to informing readers, short of including it in the story description.

However, I mainly include it there because I tell them precisely how many chapters the total story contains, so they can prepare themselves for how long it'll take to unfold.

Does the feature for scheduling multiple chapters in advance allow the final chapter to be specified, so the system can change the story status to 'Complete' when it is posted? If so, the 'Complete and Posting Scheduled' status could be reserved for stories when the final chapter has already been submitted but not yet posted.

Yes, it does. You simply select "Completed" when you schedule the final chapter, so it'll flip that switch on the story after the last story posts. However, each chapter is only processed when it's finally posted, so there's no way for the 'system' to determine the final chapter.

That's why I prefer selecting a tag for 'completed story' or alternately 'completely written' so SOL can list it as being finished, even if it's still posting.

P.S. In this day and age, it's more likely an author will succumb to Alzheimer's than they are to being run over by a bus!

In the end, having the story finished means that there won't be any disruption for the readers if life intervenes to cause some kind of delay in writing chapters.

That's assuming you've pre-scheduled each of the 85 chapters before the bus hits you!

That's assuming you've pre-scheduled each of the 85 chapters before the bus hits you!

Or having a backup plan for such an eventuality.

I may split the story into the sub-stories - if it looks reasonable after my outline has solidified - so that I can get feedback earlier.

That's one of my great bugaboos (stories that end up being unfocused because authors randomly choose where to break a story into separate books).

If you don't mind a little more advice, when you reach that point, think of books in terms of their Themes (i.e. what message are you trying to convey to the reader in the story, aside from the plot points). If one section of a story has a different theme (ex: the first part deals with a character's hopelessness as they struggle against the odds, while the second half deals with their increased confidence), then that's a natural breaking point for a story.

What's more, as I'm writing, I'll define each book's theme ahead of time, and keep it nearby, along with the story description, to remind me of the story's focus, so I'd concentrate on the larger themes, rather than just adding scenes in a largely haphazard manner.

Unfortunately (or possibly fortunately for many authors), I seem to be one of the few who make this distinction. But for each of my books, I can tell you the specific purpose and objective of each, often without having to refer to my notes, as it's now ingrained in my psyche.

and need to apply forshadowing

In my opinion, if you deliberately foreshadow events, the writing can come across as forced and unnatural. If the events take a narrator protagonist by surprise, I think that's how you should present the events to the reader too.

AJ

It's changing from pure psychotic thriller to one that includes magic/paranormal. I HATE when a story does that with no warning... Reading through when suddenly, aliens (or whatever) show up really bothers me.

Make sure you change the appropriate story tags then, as well as spelling out the changes in a blog post (so readers can check out why the story changed when they hit the new section). That's help ease the readers into the revised story.

Reading through when suddenly, aliens (or whatever) show up really bothers me.

If the author coded the story properly, you would know there would be aliens or whatever in the story. Of course, readers don't always check the codes before they decide to read the story.

In my opinion, if you deliberately foreshadow events, the writing can come across as forced and unnatural. If the events take a narrator protagonist by surprise, I think that's how you should present the events to the reader too.

Foreshadowing isn't there to spoil a story, instead it's there to prepare the reader for what eventually happens, so that when it does, they'll say 'Damn, that's why he did that!'. If the surprise is that you kill off a primary character, then you're right, there's really no need to foreshadow that (although many authors do).

I was just reading a review of a new book, where a novel about a woman investigating the person who killed her sister starts out with the sister 'playing dead' by falling into an empty grave, only to be killed a few chapters later. That's an example of 'foreshadowing'. It's not intended to spoil the surprise (since every reader would already know from the dust jacket that the sister died, but to establish the parallels which help make sense of what happened to her.

The key, though, is that you don't foreshadow by outlining precisely what's going to happen, only to suggest the character's motivations.

On a serious note, The story I'm working on is getting a rewrite of the published chapters. Ive made a major change to the storyline, and need to apply forshadowing.

Just a note: I'd either post a blog about reissuing those chapters, or add something to the story description or the End Note informing your readers that you've modified those chapters.

Writing blog posts won't reach everyone, but it has the added benefit of reading a whole different category of readers, while anyone curious about the different chapters will likely check your blog for an explanation.

On the plus side, even if everyone doesn't read your blog, every times you chapters take a little time, your readers are likely to back up to remember just what was happening, so hopefully they'll figure out the differences. Still, I'd 'remind' readers in the newer chapters what the character did before in those early revised chapters (if that convoluted sentence made any sense).

My current story will be finished and edited before I begin posting it. I don't have a fixed posting strategy, but it will be at least one chapter per week.

As a general guideline, any schedule works, but you want to post on specific days, if at all possible, so readers know when to check for your latest update. There are various reasons for selecting different days, weekends get the most hits, but there's so much competition, you'll be bounced off the "Most Recent Stories" list in no time. Posting during the week will keep your stories available longer, but if you post later in the week, you'll also catch the heavier Saturday traffic, since the latest stories will stay up for two days. (For me, I usually do Tues. and Thur. for just that reason, while I try to schedule any 'cliffhangers' for a Thurs. release.)

Thank you, your method makes a lot of sense.

BTW, I still think about how easily you rewrote that one scene of mine. I use your version as a guide.

BTW, I still think about how easily you rewrote that one scene of mine. I use your version as a guide.

I'm always happy to help, but as I mentioned previously, I'm an overly harsh editor, which is why I avoid doing it. I tend to scare away more authors than I actually help. However, I also deal with the story content, and how to improve the story rather than cleaning up the language, which makes a significant difference from standard 'editing'.

In the end, I don't expect any author to accept my choices for their story, but just hope they pick up reasons I relate in my choices when they continue writing, so they can avoid those types of situations in the future.

There is an argument to be made for posting as you write and that is when the author does not plan to end the story. RoustWriter's Arlene and Jeff, one chapter a week for almost 10 years, is a prime example.

And those are some of the most popular, and top-scoring stories, everything else being normal, but I'm not criticizing that approach, but I'm just urging caution for newbies jumping headlong into that without testing the waters first.

For most established authors, caution is the key, as it's easy to fall behind on a posting schedule, and difficult to catch up again. And however big a cushion you give yourself, after a couple of years, you're basically posting as fast as you can write 'em.

Not disputing what you say, but does an author, new or old, have an obligation to define a posting schedule or produce new chapters at specific intervals?

I would say NO.

Personally, I write for my enjoyment and share what I write with those who are interested. If I posted as I wrote, which I don't do, I would not want to be forced to create to some time schedule. It would result in me producing a poorer story than I am capable of writing.

To paraphrase a well-known statement: No story before its time.

Not disputing what you say, but does an author, new or old, have an obligation to define a posting schedule or produce new chapters at specific intervals?

I never meant that a regular posting schedule was a requirement, I'm just highlighting it as an significant factor that new authors need to consider before committing to a piece. It's also tied into my previous, 'try something smaller, even it's only a small piece of your bigger work' strategy.

If they start out with a smaller piece to get their feet wet initially, then it's easier to post on a set schedule. That's an easier way to get a feel for how things operate here. If they then decide to go ahead with their massive 50+ chapter story, more power too them, but at least they'll know what they're getting into before they end up 30 chapters in with no clue how to proceed.

But you're right. Each story needs it's own space. I'm just suggesting they dip their toes in the pond before diving in head first.

But just with the 'write the entire story before posting' advice, I don't expect many to follow my advice. The 'I only post completed' story contingent on SOL is definitely in the minority, and that's not about to change anytime soon.

For this, I will post each book as it's finished. I will post each book in its entirety because posting it in individual chapters would make keeping up with the overarching story awkward. At least I think so.

Again, if you already have the entire story completed, then you can schedule each chapter to be posted on a different day, on a regular schedule. The key is that you have to post the first chapter manually, so the system recognizes the story before you can schedule anything. But after that, the postings are all automatic, meaning you don't have to babysit them (though it doesn't hurt to check after they post, because it's fairly common to screw up something, like posting the wrong chapter).

I hear you, I'm like a paranoid mother hen when a story posts because I want it to be the best I can make it. I have sat in front of my computer for two or three hours checking every few minutes to make sure I'm one of the first to see it. Even then those damn nits get through lol.

And some of us nit pickers might let you know where to find the nits. :)

And some of us nit pickers might let you know where to find the nits. :)

As the ol' timers say: "Me Nits be in me nuts, wanna pick em, sonny?"

And I'd remind those ol' timers that 'Picking nits that are in nuts require the nuts to be cracked.'

Now, I generally finish a story before I start posting it. I try to get the story through an editor before I post it, but failed with _Councils of War_, the latest story.

It's often difficult to properly schedule editor's time, as they're often busy with other things and other stories. So it's NOT unusual to compromise on a story or two. I had a few where my regular editors refused to work on a story, plus I keep losing and gaining new editors all the time, which takes a lot of finessing.

So don't worry too much. If nothing else, what doesn't get fully edited now can always be better edited later.

All Blessings upon the authors that finish what they start, and post more than once a week, for they shall inherit The Kingdom Of Font.

Has anyone ever calculated the relative output of various authors (i.e. do the 'post only when done' crowd produce works at a slower process, and is there really a vast difference between the amount of typos and grammar issues between those who post as they go and those who wait for their editors to finish with the stories)?

Also, as a follow-on, do those who read the 50+ chapter sagas factor in an increased amount of proofreading issues (i.e. they specifically don't lower their vote because of increased mistakes)?

I'm not suggesting that one Style is better (at avoiding mistakes than the other), but I'm curious whether readers assume that there will be more in certain types of stories.

I'm more interested in what percentages of stories are completed when you compare the two styles.

For the post when complete crowd, 100% of their posted stories are complete, but you don't know how many stories they started and then abandoned since those don't get posted.

If you see any incomplete stories on their author's page they probably started on in the post as you go crowd and then got smart and switched crowds.

For the post as you go crowd, their incomplete stories seem to remain on the site forever so you can calculate a completed stories percentage.

It was clear. How do you propose finding out how many unfinished stories the 'post when complete' authors have written?

Since their unfinished stories don't get posted, that information is not readily available. You would have to contact each author and ask them to provide you with that information, which may not result in you receiving the information you need.

I know and that was my point when I commented on your remark regarding post when complete versus post as you go:

I'm more interested in what percentages of stories are completed when you compare the two styles.

How do you propose finding out how many unfinished stories the 'post when complete' authors have written?

You can add to that the question 'How many of those unfinished unpublished stories are worth reading anyway?'

A fair number of stories corroborate the adage 'The journey is more important than the destination'. In Orson Scott Card's 'MICE' quotient, 'Event' is only one of the categorisations.

As I've said elsewhere, I think 'The Private' by Random Writings is one of the best stories on SOL, but any conclusion would probably be an anticlimax.

AJ

I enjoy The Private also, and was sad when it got the yellow stripe two years ago. I wanted to find out how an enlisted man sentenced to perpetual duty as a Private in the service was going to get the girl who was an officer.

It was clear. How do you propose finding out how many unfinished stories the 'post when complete' authors have written?

I think (given the context) that he was asking, much as I had with the previous question to his, for authors to self-report on this thread just how many unfinished stories they have.

In answer, there's a big difference between 'unfinished', 'abandoned' and 'haven't yet gotten to'. For myself, I've published 16 books (posted 15), have 7 books that I've 'abandoned' (though 3 of them I may still get back too after I complete my other stories. Two of those never got off the 'conception' phase, and three of those are in one series I abandoned after not-starting for several years.

In short, I've never abandoned a single story I've started (though I've got one I'm questioning abandoning at the moment, though I'll have to see whether I can save it or not).

I think that's the difference between not fully planning the scope of the story, rather than finding you can't resolve particular plot holes. Plot holes you can clean up before readers ever see it if you only post complete stories. Not planning the scope of a story, and simply writing to 'see where the story goes' tends (I suspect) to more 'abandoned' stories that were dropped mid-way through the writing process.

That's an overly detailed answer, all about myself, I know, but I think that's the kind of feedback he was asking for. If not, I apologize for the overly long self-indulgent rant.

Is that even a fair question?
When you post a story and leave it half done, you've wasted one hell of a lot of readers' time. when you abandon a story before posting, you merely have a mine for story aspects you can go to in the future.

I agree. There's zero 'social' costs for an unfinished and unposted story, while an abandoned story is a major disappointing time-such for many individuals who all tend to feel abused by the author—whether it's legitimate or not.

Of course, you are right, if the incomplete story would have never been posted, I wouldn't know what I've missed, but does that mean there is no loss?

Ross's objections notwithstanding, although I've long maintained that several of my all-time favorite stories are/were abandoned, in the end, there's no 'social cost' to what someone has never experienced. They may have loved the story, but if they've never read it, by definition, they'll have no opinion on it. :) (That's for you, Ross, since I know you enjoy them so much!)

What about people like me, who greatly enjoyed unfinished stories, even though knowing they'll probably never get completed?

Oh no, my life is ruined. I'm 'like' robberhands.

(One of my favourite stories on SOL is 'The Private' by Random Writings. It's currently incomplete, updates have become exponentially further apart and, tbh, an ending would probably weaken the story.)

AJ

When you post a story and leave it half done

Then you are a serial killer.

Only if you quite mid-way through the series, and then you're not technically a 'killer', you're merely a serial abandoner, like many dead-beat fathers.

when do you consider a story abandoned

Personally, I consider a story abandoned when the yellow stripe appears. To me, the yellow stripe means the author has made no progress on the story for a year and is not likely to do so.

However, that doesn't mean the author won't complete the story. It just means there is a very low probability that they will finish the story.

I'm more interested in what percentages of stories are completed when you compare the two styles. Does receiving positive responses from people that like something you write keep you motivated and writing, or does a negative response leave you unmotivated and discouraged?

Does the pressure to finish the story you start posting help you keep focused and motivated, or do you stop writing because your hobby feels like a second job without pay?

For me, at least, it's the story that motivates me. As I'm genuinely curious how it'll play out in the end. While I always have a definite ending in mind, I never know precisely how I'll get there.

I've also found that, although I do abandon stories, in general, if I can crank out at least one or two full chapters, I know the story has enough structure for me to finish. The stories I've abandoned never made it past that point, anything else merely gets temporarily shelved until I finish another more pressing project.

Feedback doesn't really determine how a story turns out, but it does give me a feel for whether a story is appreciated, and more importantly, whether it strikes a cord with readers. So feedback is an important part of the process, but it's not what keeps me writing, that's the story demanding to be told come hell or high water. If a story doesn't grab me by the collar and refuse to let go, it'll never get written in the first place.

I've read a saga I liked very much. Each book was completed and professionally edited before it was published. So far there are five books published but now I'm already waiting several years for book six of the series. Does that count as 'completed before posting' or is it 'writing and posting as you go'?

For us, 'only post completed stories' crowd, we treat each book in a series as a separate entity, so we don't write out an entire series before posting the first book. The main point is to complete the entire first draft of a book so you can ensure consistency, removing anything which doesn't advance the plot, and adding the necessary foreshadowing for the things that happen later in the book. The same doesn't hold true for later books.

However, in the case you described, it sounds like the author can't let the one story goes, but never actually had an actual end for the entire series in sight. In my case, before I start on the first book in a series, I know for a fact how many books will be in that series, and I'll work towards that end.

The exception to that are the 'open ended' books, which I plan as one-and-done books. With those, after publishing, at some point I'll suddenly get a new idea on how to continue the story, and then I'll add a new book. (I'm doing that now with a book that many people had wanted a sequel to, but I couldn't figure out how to write a compelling second book. It's taken several years, but I've finally figured out how to approach the sequel.

I suspect the author in your example likes his character, and wants to write more, but has 'run out of steam' and is no longer motivated to write more, as the next stories are so much like the first that the stories aren't compelling enough for him to finish, much less his readers.

On the other hand, for the 'post as you go' crowd, most abandoned stories aren't dropped because of life events, but because they never planned the story out ahead of time, and thus they run into problems with plot holes which prevents them from completing the story. You'll often notice certain authors will keep releasing the same types of stories, but are never able to complete the basic premise. That, for me, is a failure to plan the story properly, and they're merely writing an 'each day in the life' epic that, ultimately, never goes anywhere.

It does? I thought when he sold his copyright and they made a TV series out of his saga, it may have messed with George R.R. Martin's writing schedule. However, if you think he just doesn't know an ending, I'm certain you are right.

I never claimed that's the case in every single instance, I merely suggested that it sounded like the case in the one single reference.

Talk about picking nits, you can always find a single exception to any generality, but that doesn't negate the point, it merely paints you as a little mind, with little room for bigger ideas (not that mine are all that big, but this criticism is pointless in its absurdity.

Not being able to come up with an ending has nothing to do with professionalism.

Yep, I definitely missed the sarcasm.

Whenever GRRM thinks he's getting close to an ending, the producers demand another series (how many times has a new series been described as 'final'!)

My understanding is that the TV series and books have diverged somewhat, so there's no requirement for the two to end identically.

AJ

It's just that GRRM isn't as professional a writer as CW.

The definition of 'professional' is 'one who charges for their profession'. There's no way I'll ever come near the success he's achieved, so let's just table that entire discussion. He's had success I've never enjoy.

My main problem was that I didn't know the relation between the two authors being discussed, thinking the reference was a purely abstract one. My bad!

You may talk about nit-picking as much as you like. It was the story saga I was referring to, and not an exception to any rule you may think to exist.

Sorry (myself), I was thinking you were picking "Game of Thrones" as an exception proving your point, rather than the piece in question potentially violating it's copyright. (I have my own opinions about an author who 'gives up' writing books because he can make so much more money writing TV scripts. At this point, I have little faith that he'll ever finish his Game of Throne series. At best, he'll hire some hack to 'novelize' his TV show episodes for him.

I don't mind some decent TV for a change, but I, for one, would rather have an excellent book than a excellent TV show which has, by definition, has less room for exposition and development. But then, I suspect I'm merely crying in the wilderness by myself on this particular issue.

Yep. The first belong to CW's 'we crowd' and the second are unknown entities with even higher professional standarts, but without a lobby.

Wait, I'm now 'the crowd' who never finishes a single book, but have a powerful 'lobby' behind me, supporting me and pushing my agenda?

You've gotta be kidding. You accuse me of occasionally making giant leaps of logic, this is just patently ridiculous.

Is there any difference in principle between authors who don't finish books and authors who finish books but don't finish series?

As I aluded to earlier (in the post about the author had wrote five books but hadn't completed the next one), often an author will simply put off a planned sequel, rather than abandon it. In those instances, it's often because the last book didn't do very well, so they're questioning the wisdom of investing that much time on a work unlikely to do any better, or they're working on a more 'productive story', or the piece just hasn't 'gelled' yet.

It's not always because they've abandoned the series. Often it's more a matter of priorities, and prioritizing one story over another. Plus, there's also the question of exhaustion, when despite calls for "More, more", and author might just be sick of continually writing the same thing over and over. Luckily, I've never been in that situation myself, but certain books are definitely more of a struggle than others, while certain works simply 'write themselves' they flow so naturally.

Is there any difference in principle between authors who don't finish books and authors who finish books but don't finish series?

What does 'finish' mean in an epic story? There are always unresolved conflicts and untold futures (unless you put the entire cast on a plane and crash it into a mountain).

What does 'finish' mean in an epic story?

To me, it's when the author says, "Okay, I'm done with this one now." When I was writing my first book for here, I had reached a natural spot where I could have ended it. That was where I had PLANNED to end it. Ended up with 15 more chapters, and I did the 'cheat' in the last one. I simply did a quick time jump of a decade where the war was over, resolved some of the major things, and left a lot of other stuff for the reader to finish themselves.

Thing is - writing a story is sort of like playing a role playing game, it's not like playing Monopoly or Chess. There's no definitive 'I won' moment in life. But you CAN crash everyone into a mountain.

Of course, that ALSO makes for an interesting story if you START with that. Say, into the Andes, and there's a few survivors that have to resort to cannibalism to stay alive. Ah, who'd believe such an unlikely story. (Yeah, I know that really DID happen, lot's of people don't.)

Of course, that ALSO makes for an interesting story if you START with that. Say, into the Andes, and there's a few survivors that have to resort to cannibalism to stay alive. Ah, who'd believe such an unlikely story. (Yeah, I know that really DID happen, lot's of people don't.)

When MH370 disappeared, all I could think of was Lost.

When MH370 disappeared, all I could think of was Lost.

I'm glad I wasn't the only one ...

I'm glad I wasn't the only one ...

I recall reading about other incidents where flight crew had mental, alcohol, or drug issues, so my thought was whether I ever wanted to travel by air in the future.

it is vastly safer per mile to travel by airplane,

Yeah, I know. For me it is more a matter of control. Do I want to place my safety in the hands of people I don't know?

Add in the frustration of TSA lines and rules, putting up with fellow passengers who are inconsiderate and idiots, crying babies, and parents allowing bored kids to kick the back of your seat and scream at each other.

ETA: I almost forgot the United flight I was on where they served a buffet lunch. Everyone had to get out of their seats, move to the rear of the airplane using the right aisle, get their food, and return to their seat using the left aisle. I'll never forget the woman who intended to lean on my seat and ended up sitting on my shoulder totally unaware of what she was doing. Heaven help anyone who had to use the toilets that were at the rear of the airplane. They ran out of food before everyone was served.

So instead of placing your safety . . .

Trained professionals who might be drunk, on drugs, suicidal, etc. When I drive those thousands of people can adversely affect my safety, but they don't hold my safety in their hands. Up to a point, my safety is in my hands. I can change my speed, adjust my following distance, change lanes, and do other things to reduce the probability of my being injured.

- Total deaths worldwide during 2017 from passenger plane crashes: 0

Incorrect. Zero is the total number of deaths from commercial passenger jets.

When you factor in other commercial planes plus non-commercial planes and helicopters, I'd be extremely surprised if the total didn't exceed 118. And the total number of person-minutes of air-travel worldwide is considerably less than the number of person-minutes of people in America.

AJ

When I drive those thousands of people can adversely affect my safety, but they don't hold my safety in their hands.

You'd be safer spending your entire life on passenger planes than walking the streets of America.

He wasn't saying that we was safer, only that he felt safer. In other words, being in control gave him a greater feeling of confidence, as opposed to blindly trusting people he had no reason to feel confident about.

That's not an unreasonable assumption. It all boils down to whether you base your safety concerns on dry statistics, often taken out of context, or from what makes you feel safer in the long run.

(Yeah, I know that really DID happen, lot's of people don't.)

It's happened (in real life) more than once. It's not as 'unusual' as we'd prefer to believe. Desperate people do desperate things.

What does 'finish' mean in an epic story? There are always unresolved conflicts and untold futures (unless you put the entire cast on a plane and crash it into a mountain).

I suspect the implied meaning is: what's the difference between someone who doesn't finish a story before posting weekly updates, and one who doesn't finish every single book in an extended series.

To answer my own post, the answer would obviously be quality, as the author has the opportunity to 'clean-up' the text, something that, while not impossible, is incredibly difficult to do when you don't know which elements are necessary and which won't actually lead anywhere.

Still, I understand the point, that it's frustrating to have to wait years for an author to get around to writing a sequel. However, I'd rather wait for a sequel worthy of the series, rather than one was rushed into production, even though the plot didn't get the extra attention it may have needed. (But this is more personal with me, since I've often written sequels I never though I'd write, only because I get a workable idea long after I completed the original.)

Is there any difference in principle between authors who don't finish books and authors who finish books but don't finish series?

usually the first group don't know where they're going with the story while the second group just run out of time and are no longer able to write before they get to where they want to go with the series. As I said, usually, but not always.

And we can't ask for anecdotal evidence from the usual suspects here ... ?

True, because some of us don't track the scores at all. The only times I look at the scores is when I see a need to reference them in a forum thread response.

I post my stories over a period with 5,000 to 10,000 words going up every other day because I learned, from their feedback, that's what a majority of my readers like to see as a new new posting. Sure, not everyone wants it that way, but that's what was wanted by the majority of those who emailed me in the past, so it's what I do.

I was impressed that the score did not fade after posting was completed. That suggests to me that the plot does not have major weaknesses.

Once again, the trend for most (non-controversial) stories is that the score jumps at the completion, as readers post their 'final' scores, then drops significally within a few days as those who weren't interested enough to read it as it was posting vote that it's still not their favorite story. However, over time, the scores tend to increase over time, so you really can't base your success on your initial scores.

My all-time favorite stories on SOL (based exclusively on scores) were often my lowest rated stories, as they were the last in the series, where the readers had to finally say 'goodbye' to the characters, yet in the long run, the final wrap up, even if the main characters ended up dying for their cause, end up as the most memorial.

the story accumulated four times as many downloads and votes in the time following its completion.

Which suggests about 80% read the story after it was fully posted. That's more than I'd have guessed.

Not necessarily, as I just stated above, many readers semi-frequently reread their favorite stories. What's more, those who've been reading a story a chapter at a time will often go back when it completes and reread it as a completed work. So far, no one seems to have a decent feel for how many of those are new readers as opposed to re-readers. :(

When I've read the whole story I've all chapters on a drive and don't need to download it again for re-reading.
So I download only the first few chapter twice. Any observer will probably assume a new reader stopped reading after the first few chapters!

If I really like the story, I use Calibre's edit program to create an ebook and start re-reading the story while still in the edit program, correcting any typos and obvious errors on the fly.

While that's not an uncommon approach, it means you'll likely miss most of the author's updates, as it's extremely rare that I'll even be alerted to any mistakes within the first week. More often, I'll get someone reading the story much later, who'll point out a few issues. I'll encourage him, telling him how I applied his suggestions, so he'll report a few more. Long story short, they end up doing a major edit on most of the story (if I respond quickly enough, less if I don't), not just changing the obvious typos you might notice, but often changing other story issues as well as making the changes suit the characters and account for what happens elsewhere in the story.

Thus, in a way, you're ultimately cheating yourself out of the later updates. A better approach would be to read the entire story, offer sample suggestions to the author, and then, when you're done, download the entire story as an epub (assuming you have Premium access), converting that using Calibre into whichever format you prefer.

For example, I'm preparing to start posting yet another story. Since it's a sequel, I plan to repost each chapter to include the various updates suggested by my editor including the additions I added concerning any issues they discovered.

In the end, I'm not complaining about your approach, but pointing out that you may be missing some of the finer changes hidden in the newer updates.

You apply the term 'serial' purely in regards to the primal posting schedule but you have to keep in mind that the majority of readers will read the story (not a serial) after it's completed.

What's more, most readers will re-read their favorite stories multiple times.

If your assumption would be true, the scores of those former serials would decline over time.

Yes, that would a consequence of my assumption, but stories could still eventually settle at a higher score than they would have if posted all at once.

And we can't ask for anecdotal evidence from the usual suspects here ... ? Them saying they've noticed a fading of scores after posting is completed would amount to an admission their plots are repetitious. :(

Given that scores for these stories tend to rise over time, rather than falling, I suspect the opposite is true. That the stories are so popular, that readers more easily forgive their many faults, as long as they are posted on a regular basis and readers can continue to enjoy the story even long after they first finished reading the completed story years ago.

It keeps the story appearing on the front page and more readers see it than if you post the entire story and walk away. Then, only your dedicated readers see it unless it comes up in a search.

This is only my totally unscientific approach and I obviously don't have a significant sample for a real statistical analysis so it all comes down to.

Your observations are borne out by the (anecdotal) evidence observed by many authors as well.