Forum: Author Hangout

Pornography- X-rated text,

I hadn't focused on this. What text is "x-rated," do you suppose?

Note: I'm not asking for a personal opinion on what constitutes x-rated text, i.e., pornography. I'm asking a serious question about what Lulu and their partners consider x-rated: is cocksucking OK? Fucking? Sodomy? Snuff? Bestiality? Just kissing, no more? Hand on the outside of blouse?

Anyone have any knowledge of or experience with this clause?

EDIT TO ADD: I can second what others have said about how closely retailers enforce their rules about, for example, incest. They don't review everything, that's for sure.

bb

What text is "x-rated," do you suppose?

A good question I can't give a specific answer to. However, as regards to what Lulu accepts, I can only say all the finished stories I've written or am involved with are available as epubs and print books on my Lulu site. That includes all the stories written by me and Cazna, and Shiloh I worked on with The Scot. That includes the story Debt Collection which includes BDSM, sodomy, bestiality, incest, and a whole lot more:

https://storiesonline.net/s/52470/debt-collection

The only issues I've had with Lulu have been technical and one content complaint which they took no action on, other than telling me about it. The content complaint was about some of my comments on church doctrine in The Same Sex marriage Debacle and the technical issues resolve around the Creation Date in the e-pubs because I'm in Australia and their verification software sometimes has an issue if I lodge an e-pub with a date in their future.

Some years ago Amazon did pich up a lot of stories off the Lulu site and they included Cazna's Power Tool which Amazon have no issue with still advertising on their site, despite my many past request they pull it.

https://storiesonline.net/s/52276/power-tool

A good question I can't give a specific answer to. However, as regards to what Lulu accepts, I can only say all the finished stories I've written or am involved with are available as epubs and print books on my Lulu site. That includes all the stories written by me and Cazna, and Shiloh I worked on with The Scot. That includes the story Debt Collection which includes BDSM, sodomy, bestiality, incest, and a whole lot more:

I've harped on this before, but the 'pornography' clause is more likely to be invoked when someone unexpectantly encounters gay porn than it does with straight porn. I know several gay authors who've had works yanked, but have heard of only a few writers of incest who've had their works yanked. Again, that's the problem with purely subjective evaluations. They only get invoked by people when they trigger their specific button issues.

I know several gay authors who've had works yanked, but have heard of only a few writers of incest who've had their works yanked.

Well, some of the stories in what I've posted include homosexual or gay themes, and some involve incest - but they've not been pulled or objected to. Maybe it's something to do with how well they're written. I don't know, but the following are posted at Lulu, but not on the market partners:

Debt Collection - Tags: Ma/Fa, mt/ft, Ma/ft, mt/Fa, Fa/Fa, ft/ft, Fa/ft, Ma/mt, mt/mt, Mult, Consensual, NonConsensual, Reluctant, Coercion, Slavery, BiSexual, Heterosexual, Fiction, Slut Wife, Revenge, Incest, Mother, Son, Brother, Sister, Daughter, Cousins, Niece, Aunt, Nephew, InLaws, BDSM, DomSub, MaleDom, Spanking, Rough, Humiliation, Swinging, Gang Bang, Group Sex, Orgy, Harem, First, Oral Sex, Anal Sex, Masturbation, Fisting, Sex Toys, Bestiality, Pregnancy, Cream Pie, Exhibitionism, Size

Revenge for the School - Tags: Ma/Ma, Mult, NonConsensual, Rape, Gay, TransGender, Shemale, Fiction, Vignettes, Revenge, Rough, Sadistic, Torture, Oral Sex, Anal Sex, Violent

Naughty Jo - Tags: Ma/Ma, NonConsensual, Rape, Gay, TransGender, Shemale, Fiction, Vignettes, Light Bond, Humiliation, Oral Sex, Anal Sex

...............

Mind you, anything you let Lulu share with the Market Partners like Amazon and B&N can be pulled from all sites if a complaint is made via Amazon, B&N, Apple, Kobo etc. But anything not shared has different rules applied.

CW, with the ones you know were pulled, were they shared with the Market Partners?

CW, with the ones you know were pulled, were they shared with the Market Partners?

I only have limited experience with Lulu, but a long history with Amazon. Aside from the couple people I personally know who've had stories pulled, most of what I know is from people discussing the issue online.

The main point, in my humble opinion, is that it's a matter of perception. If you market gay stories primarily to gays, you'll probably be OK. It's when you present kiddyporn, or gay sexuality, to little old ladies unprepared for it, they'll complain. However, fans of the medium generally won't complain no matter how extreme the violation.

By the way, got enough tags? Your description might be easier to read if you just settle for "Incest", rather than listing each and every version of it. :)

Unfortunately reciprocity isn't a complete solution because there exceptions. Men get women pregnant despite women being unable to return the favour.

AJ

Another example: a jihadi would be quite happy for you to cut his head off because it would mean martyrdom and a large number of virgins. Unfortunately he expects the same right, to be able to cut your head off.

Perhaps everyone should grow multiple heads. Then I'd have multiple mouths out of which to spout bollocks :)

AJ

Please, please, please. They ran out of fresh virgins a long time ago.

The ex-vigins probably get pregnant generating a fresh supply of virgins. :)

it took the "fresh supply" 14 years to be ready for use

That's just a logistics issue. Today's supply of virgins were started 14-18 years ago.

True, but we are both responsible for the baby.

And then we have "men" who refuse to accept responsibility for impregnating a woman. They usually say that it is the woman's job to avoid pregnancy, not theirs. Then they just walk away.

There are even known cases of women faking pregnancies.

That's the main reason why prophylactics (rubbers) have such a low effectiveness rating, because most of their failures are the results of women not taking them, but claiming they did. (Both my daughters did that because their husbands weren't interested in having kids at the time.)

I've harped on this before, but the 'pornography' clause is more likely to be invoked when someone unexpectantly encounters gay porn than it does with straight porn.

FWIW the UK government has decided that literature isn't pornographic. They've forced ISPs to introduce pornography opt in/out for video and image websites but text websites aren't considered porn.

AJ

FWIW the UK government has decided that literature isn't pornographic. They've forced ISPs to introduce pornography opt in/out for video and image websites but text websites aren't considered porn.

While the Canadian and Australian laws of a few years ago specifically target literature, and in the Australian version, go even farther, targeting the authors rather than the publishers who are better equipped to defend themselves.

What text is "x-rated," do you suppose?

It's a vague statement that gives them the ability to delete anything they want to.

I hadn't focused on this. What text is "x-rated," do you suppose?

Note: I'm not asking for a personal opinion on what constitutes x-rated text, i.e., pornography. I'm asking a serious question about what Lulu and their partners consider x-rated: is cocksucking OK? Fucking? Sodomy? Snuff? Bestiality? Just kissing, no more? Hand on the outside of blouse?

It's a fuzzy line, as virtually anything by a mainstream publisher is OK, while things by small-time freelancers are immediately suspect, but the delineation tends to fall under the nebulous 'I'll know it when I see it' clause. If it's seen as 'literary', it's acceptable, whereas if it appears pornographic (no redeemable social value), it's not.

Essentially, the rule banning pornography allows these companies to do whatever the hell they want. If it's a big seller, they can simply say, "It's clearly not pornographic, while if it only sell a few hundred copies, they can likewise claim "It's obviously pornographic". It's a term that's impossible to enforce objectively, allowing the companies to make subjective judgments based on their own business interests.

The definition of incest varies around the world.

While that's true in general, it doesn't apply to publishing via large sites like Amazon, lulu or smashwords, which largely operate outside out local government intervention. In order to do that, they institute the 'least offensive' rules, meaning NO sex involving minors in any form, and No incest, though descriptions of someone torturing and dismembering someone is perfectly fine.

Since they don't monitor everything submitted, people flout these rules all the time, but as Ernest said, they can and will yank your book, pocketing any unpaid monies earned, if they receive as little as a single complaint, and there is NO review process allowed, whether you were justified or not!

However, I'm unsure whether TechnicalDragon was actually planning to publish, or merely to post on SOL.

In either case, incest is roughly defined as family members having sex together--regardless of age. It doesn't matter whether they're blood related or not, as extended families have been around for quite a long time now.

I published a couple of incest stories which never encountered any trouble. The first, "The Catalyst" series, established an interest in the brother and sister which was only acted upon mid-way into the second book, so anyone weirded out by the subject wouldn't have stuck around for the second book (a nice save route to take). The next, "The Cuckoo's Progeny", is touted as a 'Pseudo-Incest' story, as the characters aren't, strictly speaking, human, or related in any way to their parents.

So far, I haven't been called on either story.

In short, you don't want to flaunt such a story. By taking common sense cautions, you can mitigate your risks. However, you'll notice several authors who offer dozens of clear violations, but they're special cases. Essentially, they upload short (around 10,000 words, whereas novelletes are 30,000 words and novels are typically 60,000+ words) every month, and if they're books get pulled and they get banned, they simply create a new user ID and publish all new stories--so they aren't hung up on the cautions the rest of us aren't. :(

Don't know if that helps, but that's how the Amazon cookie crumbles (pun partially intended).

Technically, neither not being human or not being biologically related to their human parents leads inevitably to the conclusion that they aren't true siblings.

Hence my use of the term "Pseudo-Incest", which I include on the cover of the book.

If per your story, they aren't true siblings, that would be pseudo incest, but the specific facts you cited don't make that distinction.

You'll have to read the story to find out. ;)

Seriously, though, since the story is a discovery adventure, stating the true nature of their relationship would be a spoiler (he says, already having given too much away).

I am reading it. :)

Good. In that case, you can tell me how it turns out in the end.

In which context, psychological, medical, legal, or all of the above?

And what the sites objects to is different again.

It was not too unusual (even in my lifetime) for a parent to legally adopt their own blood child (and I emphasise that the adopter would be the physical father / mother of the adoptee).

Sorry, but it was never common for parents to adopt their own children. What popularized the 'adult adoption' market was gays adopting one another in order to enjoy a few of the benefits normally afforded (but unavailable to them for decades) through marriage. This was especially common when an older man with money (think Liberace) adopts a young man just out of school.

@D.S.

No, no, no. It was all a misunderstanding. It was really 72 Virginians.

They're promised 72 virgins, but no one said they were either female, or attractive. A just God would give them 72 young Texan rednecks, ready to break a few heads, along with all the beer they need to do the job (which the jihadists couldn't drink).

Or even human. Perhaps the virgins are pigs.

Definitely no oral sex then.

Even better; the Muslims are complaining about our currency notes saying that they are not allowed to touch them. Apparently they don't approve of the manufacturing process.

They're perfectly free not to spent (or receive) our money if it's that objectionable. However, requesting we change something to intricate to our culture to suit their personal choices seems a bit ... onerous, especially since it offers us no concessions or benefits. After all, they're offering nothing in exchange.

I'm all for inclusion, but this sounds like an extreme example of pushing an agenda. But then again, having not heard the initial reports, I'm not sure this is a mainstream view in the Islamic American community.

I'm all for inclusion, but this sounds like an extreme example of pushing an agenda

Not so extreme, CW. While I was still living in Cupertino, CA, we had a huge influx of Asians. My wife worked for the school district, and a large segment of the people wanted us to change the way the district functioned to suit their cultural perspective.

I recall one issue in particular. The district was close to halfway complete in upgrading its school buildings. One gentleman took issue with the way the two flat sides of the building met. He insisted that the construction specifications be changed to require bullnose corners (i.e. rounded corners) because that was the way things were done were he had lived.