Forum: Author Hangout

Precisely, they have lower expectations concerning the more serious things, once the 'pressure' they've been under has been temporarily relieved.

But again, any readers lost with one story, can easily be won back with another, which may appeal to them in there, more direct ways.

porn, but they stay for the stories.

They probably stay due to the fact that erotic literature is what they actually want to read.

Sigh! Yes, they will still read the straight-up porn, yet those who come for a quick-and-dirty porn story typically don't stay for long. It's what they do after they've slated their monetary lust.

That's when they start investigating the plot-based stories. Though again, not everyone is that literate to begin with, which is the whole point, on SOL, there's basically something for everyone, whatever they're interested in. We're not just a porn site.

But again, why would I ever expect you to agree with anything I say, as we've long had this same tit-for-tat antagonistic relationship. So, I see little reason to encourage your retaliations.

The bigger issue, is that while reader may stay for the more detailed stories, the largely male readership does still prefer the erotica. Since most did first come here, and to ASSTR beforehand, they still focus on the erotica appeal, which will likely continue to affect your story ratings, more than anything else.

So, if anything, I'd modify your story descriptions, making it plain that your story are not erotica, warning away any potential 1-bombers, and then letting the chips fall where they may. That way, you'll likely get a more honest rating by reeding out those most likely to not appreciate your stories.

Again, SOL readers are more erudite than most, so they'll appreciate a wider array of interests, as you'll also notice SOL does not have much minority representation of any kind. Which is sad, yet it's hardly unexpected on a mostly older well-educated male site.

Thus, you'll likely have to put in the extra effort required to develop the reader base here which would attract similar readers (which again, was partly why I did post my one and only homoerotic story here). If not me, then who else was likely to get the ball rolling?

If you want to criticize the story, criticize the story. Plot, pacing, prose, characterization, structure. All fair game. "AI slop" is not a critique worthy of any serious reader.

"AI slop" is not a critique worthy of any serious reader.

I haven't read any of your stories so this isn't a personal criticism, but I think 'AI slop' is a useful summary to warn readers that a story is likely to be full of AI idiosyncrasies (superficial plot and characterisations, continuity errors between scenes, em-dashes galore, not X but Y constructs, triples, and words that AI considers 'positive' used inappropriately in similes).

AJ

Careful editing helps. So does knowing the difference between polished prose and lifeless prose.

Cool examples. While it's probably unfair to "judge" the paragraphs when sitting on their own, I don't find the first boring. It's my favorite. I feel comfortable with it. And I think it tells us something about the narrator. By contrast the others, while stylish, feel a bit pretentious.

It reads like 'soldering porn'! Do we need a story tag for that? :-)

AJ

I laid out my tools: a miniature soldering iron, flux pen, desoldering wick, magnifying lamp.

That's four items, not a triple. That reduces the probability of AI :-)

The methodical sequence calmed me.

That's personal and mentions your emotional state. Very unlikely to be AI.

Each step had its own weight, its own logic.

Weight is an AI-favoured word. But that's countered by the double, rather than a triple.

A small universe contained within this tiny circuit board.

AI likes to summarise what it's just told you. This is somewhat likely to be AI.

And my opinion is worth exactly what you paid for it. Other opinions will certainly differ.

AJ

AJ,

Weight is also a design spec and analysis term. I'd imagine most hobby writers have some bleed-through from their day jobs, trades, habits, and primary endeavors. Another tuple, though not a triple!

"Universe" was probably too flowery. I'll likely strike or revise that phrase before it goes anywhere near publication.

Feedback can be a wonderful thing, even when it humbles us.

All that aside, scoring work as AI or not is, to me, silly. It is a guess at best, and the scoring system in place here is flimsy.

Let readers and reviewers adjudicate the literature and decide for themselves.

em-dashes galore

I have to repeat, this is a terrible way to decide if something is AI. There are nearly 33,000 em dashes in my work, 75% of which was written before LLMs came on the scene. The remaining 25% was not AI-generated.

Em-dashes are not a guarantee of AI but a warning flag. Just as a complete absence of em-dashes is not a guarantee of non-AI but a hopeful symptom.

AJ

I've got around 10,000 em dashes in my published work to date, too. Zero are from AI. It may be a 'warning flag' in short works, but it may also be outdated (some current AIs don't generate them).

The point is, they're a lousy warning flag by themselves when looking at work coming from people who understand what they are, and that's a pretty broad set of people.

It may be a 'warning flag' in short works

The two longest works on SOL with the AI-generated tag are over 300,000 words and both contain em-dashes.

The point is, they're a lousy warning flag by themselves when looking at work coming from people who understand what they are, and that's a pretty broad set of people.

It's also quite a small set. Obviously SOL is not representational because of the shared interest in writing and, anecdotally, because a large proportion are older and more likely to have been taught how to use em-dashes.

AI itself uses em-dashes as an indicator of AI-generated work.

AJ

The two longest works on SOL with the AI-generated tag are over 300,000 words and both contain em-dashes.

And some of the longest works on SOL without the AI-generated tag (and not AI-generated) contain even more words as well as em dashes. That points out why it's a really iffy 'warning flag'.

[EDIT NOTE: The original posting of this had a screw-up above that reversed the meaning. Now fixed. Sorry for the confusion!]

Compare: The two longest works on SOL with the AI-generated tag are over 300,000 words and both contain English words.

Therefore, the presence of English words is clearly a 'warning flag', right?

AI itself uses em-dashes as an indicator of AI-generated work.

No, AI uses em-dashes because it was trained on enormous volumes of professionally published text, the great majority of which uses em dashes. Word processors adopted '--' as a shortcut to generate em dashes back in the 1990s. They did that because a fair number of people both used them and needed to generate them. Even before then, they were the standard in professional typesetting, but their use picked up considerably in non-professional writing when commonly used tools supported them.

And, now, we have the case where writers who know how to use em dashes are considering avoiding them because of fears someone will treat their presence as a 'warning flag.' See: https://medium.com/@brentcsutoras/the-em-dash-dilemma-how-a-punctuation-mark-became-ais-stubborn-signature-684fbcc9f559

So we have the curious case where the AI is generating em dashes because they're the right thing to generate, based on many decades of publishing, and writers are stewing over whether to write the wrong thing to avoid looking like a program. Imagine if we did that with calculators, and people gave incorrect math answers to avoid looking too much like machines! Or with spelling, inserting intentional spelling errors to avoid looking like a spell checker was used.

At least in my case, I'm not about to change. Nor am I going to use AIs to write for me. My em dashes will come from where they've always originated -- my fingers typing '--' as I write. (Yes, the -- was left in intentionally there -- that's what my fingers do when inserting a dash, and I often wind up deleting the second - when writing a forum post).

And some of the longest works on SOL without the AI-generated tag (and not AI-generated) contain even more words and do not contain em dashes. That points out why it's a really iffy 'warning flag'.

A correlation between the presence of the AI tag with lots of em-dashes plus a correlation between the absence of an AI tag and an absence of em-dashes points out why em-dashes are a really iffy warning flag? I'm missing something there.

AI itself uses em-dashes as an indicator of AI-generated work.

No, AI uses em-dashes because it was trained on enormous volumes of professionally published text, the great majority of which uses em dashes.

Are you really going to insist I put in the word detector? Okay then:

AI detectors (including AIs themselves) use em-dashes as an indicator of AI-generated work.

So we have the curious case where the AI is generating em dashes because they're the right thing to generate, based on many decades of publishing,

AIs are mostly trained on historic works and language has moved on. Em-dashes have declined in usage to such an extent that many (most?) keyboards don't even have a key for them.

AJ

Em-dashes have declined in usage to such an extent that many (most?) keyboards don't even have a key for them.

That's one reason people use "--" as an em-dash. They're still using an em-dash, but not the font one.

My keyboard doesn't have a "…". Does that mean the ellipsis is not used much anymore? Like with the "--", a keyboard alternative is "..." (3 periods).

The keyboard doesn't have the en-dash either. And the en-dash isn't declining in use for things like ranges (1–5). Unlike the "--" option for the em-dash, the only one for the en-dash is the hyphen which misuses the hyphen.

So I wouldn't associate the correct use of something by a keyboard's shortcomings.

That's one reason people use "--" as an em-dash. They're still using an em-dash, but not the font one.

My keyboard doesn't have a "…". Does that mean the ellipsis is not used much anymore? Like with the "--", a keyboard alternative is "..." (3 periods).

The keyboard doesn't have the en-dash either. And the en-dash isn't declining in use for things like ranges (1–5). Unlike the "--" option for the em-dash, the only one for the en-dash is the hyphen which misuses the hyphen.

Most punctuation is becoming endangered. Parentheses, colons, semicolons, dashes, quotation marks - and those even have keyboard keys. If the em-dash, ellipsis and en-dash were so popular, keyboard manufacturers would be forced to assign keys for them.

Links about obsolete punctuation:
Eight Uncommon Typography and Punctuation Marks
Five forgotten punctuation marks
13 Uncommon Punctuation Marks and How to Use Them

I didn't realise the interrobang was old. I've just started using it on social media.

AJ

If the em-dash, ellipsis and en-dash were so popular, keyboard manufacturers would be forced to assign keys for them.

They have a limited number of keys. They handle it with a combination of keys (or a workaround, like the -- for the em-dash).

I like the binary keyboard. Everything is a combination.



(image of a three key keyboard. 0, 1 and Enter)

Or a hexadecimal keypad.

I had one in the early 80s on the terminal I was using to code video games for the ColecoVision in Z80 assembly language. Made entering hex addresses/codes so much easier!

If you played Time Pilot, Galaxian, Slither, Gorf, or Front Line, you were playing with some code I wrote.

Ditto if you had a Spartus Alarm Clock in the early to mid-80s. That one was 100% me, though it used the TMS1000 chip from TI.

I agree - dot-dot-dot automatically turns into the elipsis glyph '…' (… if you want to put one in SoL forums) in the programs I use.

Testing it, MS Word does indeed replace '-' with '—' (&emdash;) automatically. So, most MS Word authored text (which is, quite possibly, most text) will have em dashes. Adobe Illustrator also automatically generates em dashes. In both cases, you can turn it off, but that's the default.

Scrivener, which I use, fixes ellipsis but not em dash. Em dash requires typing '--'. But my fingers do that automatically, since I've been doing it for nearly forty years.

Markdown, apparently, uses '--' for en dash and '---' for em dash. Annoying, to me, because '--' for em dash is a decades-old convention, but I do see the issue of wanting an easy way to generate en dashes. I don't use en dashes (probably should, though), so I don't miss it. Not sure how I'd get one. Probably make a correction shortcut, if I was doing it very often.

I ascribe the lack of quotation marks in self-published fiction to lack of writing skills, and that's not new. It happened back in alt.sex.stories in the 1980s. I do suspect schools may be doing a poorer job of teaching creative writing skills. But that may be a combination of being a couple of generations removed from school and having gone to comparatively good schools. Even 'back in the day', I had friends who also went to 'comparatively good schools' and couldn't write a coherent paper (or story).

Not sure how I'd get one (en-dash)

On a Mac — opt + hyphen
On Windows — alt + 0150

I've found this discussion a bit puzzling as my software automatically creates these. For instance ... then space, the word processor adjusts the formatting to give '. . .' although the spacing here is not correct. Oh, and I use Libre Office.

I try to write my stories so they can be downloaded as plain text, so I've switched off automatic -- and ... conversion. Unfortunately SOL converts speech marks to smart quotes.

AJ

I try to write my stories so they can be downloaded as plain text, so I've switched off automatic -- and ... conversion. Unfortunately SOL converts speech marks to smart quotes.

You can use any UTF-8 character in your posts. I use —, -, …, etc, all the time, with no trouble.

If you don't want typographers ('smart' or 'curly') quotes, put {psc} before the start of your chapter text before you upload to SOL. That disables typographer's quotes.

If you don't want typographers ('smart' or 'curly') quotes, put {psc} before the start of your chapter text before you upload to SOL. That disables typographer's quotes.

Is that relatively new? I've mentioned this before but nobody provided the {psc} opt-out.

AJ

Is that relatively new? I've mentioned this before but nobody provided the {psc} opt-out.

I've been using it for quite some time (several years). I asked Lazeez about it, and he provided the tag.

There is also {ptt} if you want a line in a monospaced ('typewriter') font. You just need it at the start of the line. E.g.

{ptt} PFM: Counselor…

rather than using a {tt}…{/tt}.

A correlation between the presence of the AI tag with lots of em-dashes plus a correlation between the absence of an AI tag and an absence of em-dashes points out why em-dashes are a really iffy warning flag? I'm missing something there.

No. I said 'correlation between the presence of the AI tag with lots of em-dashes plus a correlation between the absence of an AI tag and lots of em-dashes points out why em-dashes are a really iffy warning flag.'

Many of the longest NON-AI stories have LOTS of em dashes. That's why it's a lousy flag.

AI detectors (including AIs themselves) use em-dashes as an indicator of AI-generated work.

Most AI detectors are awful at detecting AI, and most AIs are even worse. The most recent serious academic work I've seen on the subject suggests a hit rate no better than 90%, and often much lower, for the vast majority of them. Part of the problem is that, yes, there are very good AI detectors for two-year-old AI models. But they're usually lousy at detecting current models.

Also note that this is an enormous problem both for universities, which are increasingly hitting cases where they're flagging work for 'AI use' and being clobbered in court by students who can prove AI was not used, and for students, who are having to maintain an edit history, notes, etc to prove (to the level required in legal proceedings) that AI was not used.

AIs are mostly trained on historic works

True, if one believes history starts in the past few months. One of the problems with state-of-the-art LLMs is that they're training on 'current data', more and more of which is, itself, AI generated. And, since AI detectors are miserably bad, weeding AI generated data out of the training data is hard.

GPT-4o (May 2024 release) is trained on books through late 2023. GPT-5 (Aug 2025 release) is trained on books through Aug 2024. But GPT-5.2 (Dec 2025 release) is trained on books through Aug 2025. However, it looks like GPT-5.3 and 5.4 haven't moved their dates forward. GPT-5.5 moves out to Dec 2025.

In all cases, that's 'historic,' as long as your definition is fairly broad.

The vast majority of professionally printed material, whether 'historic' from the 15th century or the 21st century, uses em dashes. Thus, the vast majority of professionally printed material used to train LLMs will contain em dashs, regardless of training cutoff.

The collected Harry Potter books contain 10,000 em dashes. Clearly, Ms. Rowling was a huge user of ChatGPT, no? Of course, that's sarcastic - those books were professionally published, so they contain em dashes. Are the Harry Potter books 'historic?' I would argue that they are - they're certainly part of history - but they're definitely modern history. But there is ample evidence that LLMs are trained on Harry Potter.

Em-dashes have declined in usage to such an extent that many (most?) keyboards don't even have a key for them.

Did you miss my comment about '--', which has been used by typesetters for generations to note a place to set an em dash, and by pretty much every major word processor since the 1980s to actually generate an em dash? Em dash use by non-professional writers has gone sharply up since the 1980s, mostly because TYPEWRITERS didn't have a way to easily generate them. Ever since word processing became a thing, it's been easier for authors to use them, and use went up sharply between 2010 and 2024.

EDIT: See my later comment above in response to @rustyken. MS Word, and likely others, automatically converts '-' (ASCII dash, on pretty much every keyboard) to '&emdash;' (an em dash) in cases where em dash is appropriate (in its judgment, of course) unless you turn it off. So, most MS Word authored text likely includes em dashes. You don't need a key for it if software is doing it for you.

In any case, em dashes were the standard for professional work a century ago and they're the standard for professional work today.

There is indeed evidence that some writers are trying to avoid em dashes now, for fear of being seen as AI. In my opinion, that's awful, and we should be pushing back against it.

I wouldn't be at all surprised if authors who did NOT want their AI-generated work to be seen as 'AI Generated' aren't mass-replacing em dash with plain ASCII dash. If that takes hold, use of ASCII dash may become a much stronger 'red flag' for AI-authored writing than em dashes are.

I'm not switching, either way. Not six books into my series and not in other work (if and when).

No. I said 'correlation between the presence of the AI tag with lots of em-dashes plus a correlation between the absence of an AI tag and lots of em-dashes points out why em-dashes are a really iffy warning flag.'

Your words:

And some of the longest works on SOL without the AI-generated tag (and not AI-generated) contain even more words and do not contain em dashes.

Perhaps you'd like to amend your original post.

GPT-4o (May 2024 release) is trained on books through late 2023. GPT-5 (Aug 2025 release) is trained on books through Aug 2024. But GPT-5.2 (Dec 2025 release) is trained on books through Aug 2025. However, it looks like GPT-5.3 and 5.4 haven't moved their dates forward. GPT-5.5 moves out to Dec 2025.

That needs clarification because I'm not sure what 'through' means. Does in mean just the time periods you mention (late 2023) or does it mean from the dawn of time until late 2023?

AI trainers complain strongly about the shortage of material they have to train their models, and that includes from the dawn of time until the present day (if they ignore copyright law). So I find it implausible to believe they could construct a viable LLM AI with just a few months worth.

The collected Harry Potter books contain 10,000 em dashes.

Ms Rowling had a 'proper' education, which predates the current trend where everyone thinks they have a book in them, even if illiterate. As such she's an anecdote rather than a representative sample.

Did you miss my comment about '--', which has been used by typesetters for generations to note a place to set an em dash

And yet modern keyboards now have a key for the Euro (not mine though) yet still no em-dash. I think that shows the relative demand.

I'm not switching, either way.

And you shouldn't have to. However you need to be aware that some AI-detectors might flag your stories on that alone. While it would arouse my suspicions, I would require significant corroboration from other tells.

AJ

And yet modern keyboards now have a key for the Euro (not mine though) yet still no em-dash. I think that shows the relative demand.

That's an awful example. Modern keyboards do not have a key for the Euro. EU keyboards have a key for the Euro just like American keyboards have a key for the dollar sign.

And, yes, the $ is used more frequently than the em-dash. That's because computers and their keyboards are multi-functional. Now if my keyboard was designed simply for fiction writing and nothing else, it probably would have the em-dash rather than the dollar sign.

EU keyboards have a key for the Euro just like American keyboards have a key for the dollar sign.

AFAIK European keyboards still have a dollar sign.

Now if my keyboard was designed simply for fiction writing and nothing else, it probably would have the em-dash rather than the dollar sign.

I doubt it. I can't prove it but I would expect the average American to use the dollar sign more than the em-dash even when writing fiction.

AJ

I can't prove it but I would expect the average American to use the dollar sign more than the em-dash even when writing fiction.

I may or may not be an average American, but in the thousands of stories I've posted to SoL I've used the word toothpick just once.

I may or may not be an average American, but in the thousands of stories I've posted to SoL I've used the word toothpick just once.

But how many times have you used the word eurotoothpick? :-)

AJ

I doubt it. I can't prove it but I would expect the average American to use the dollar sign more than the em-dash even when writing fiction.

Definitely not in my case (Variation on a Theme):
Book 1: 898 em dashes, 0 $
Book 2: 1354 em dashes, 11 $
Book 3: 1994 em dashes / 4 $
Book 4: 2406 em dashes / 87 $
Book 5: 1578 em dashes / 55 $
Book 6: 2293 em dashes / 91 $

Important note: Counts are from drafts of an unpublished update for books 1-4; actual counts online will vary, but not even vaguely enough to make '$' comparable to '&emdash;'.

I would expect others similar to yourself to report the same (not naming Michael Loucks). That's why I said average American.

AJ

I can't prove it but I would expect the average American to use the dollar sign more than the em-dash even when writing fiction.

Ngram disagrees with you. I asked it to compare the — with the $.

The $ was hardly used, going back to 1800.

The — was used much more, peaking in the early 1900s, and then its use dropped until it is hardly used anymore.

And I believe Ngram's source is both fiction and non-fiction. I would guess the use of the $ would be mostly in non-fiction.

I don't know whether it makes any difference but I meant the average American who is writing today.
Do authors write 'dollars' rather than use the '$' symbol?

The — was used much more, peaking in the early 1900s, and then its use dropped until it is hardly used anymore.

That was my perception too but Grey Wolf claims otherwise.

AJ

The — was used much more, peaking in the early 1900s, and then its use dropped until it is hardly used anymore.

That was my perception too but Grey Wolf claims otherwise.

I was referring to the movement in the Ngram chart. I believe em-dashes are used a lot in fiction (and news articles).

If you switch ngram to English Fiction, you can see a rise in em dash use from 1990 onward.

There are other pre-AI sources documenting the rise in em dash use. See, for instance, https://www.insidehighered.com/opinion/views/2025/09/30/em-dash-debate-we-should-be-having-opinion

In 2011, Philip Corbett of The New York Times noted an increasing use of the em dash in newspaper articles.

There are other contemporaneous (2011-ish) sources pushing for people to limit their use of the em dash. It feels reasonable that, if it wasn't being heavily used, no one would have been worried about overuse.

Yes, you can do without them, absolutely, as that article also mentions. Other punctuation can often do the same job, as can rewriting. But it depends on what you want the reader to experience.

I do find all of the articles (many more than that one) referring to em dashes as 'exotic' humorous, though. As mentioned, the published Harry Potter books use it roughly 10,000 times. Those are among the most read English-language titles in recent history, and not ones most readers had to struggle through.

I believe em-dashes are used a lot in fiction (and news articles).

I just took a proper look at my paper today. It's littered with a certain symbol. The symbol is delimited by spaces, it's wider than an 'n' but narrower than an 'm'. I have to admit I'm not certain what it is. My first guess would have been a dash - I was taught that, in Britain, a dash was a general purpose symbol, very like the em-dash as used by AI. But how would a newspaper not use em-dashes if all current word processors convert dashes to em-dashes?

AJ

if all current word processors convert dashes to em-dashes?

I use MS Word and it does not convert hyphens to em-dashes. There's a table in Word for auto corrections/conversions and it comes with converting "--" to an em-dash. I removed that years ago from the table.

So Word doesn't convert hyphens to em-dashes. The use of hyphens is different than the use of em-dashes. You wouldn't want "pre-owned" to look like "pre—owned." Also, the hyphen is also the minus sign.

If I open a new install of Word, with no configuration at all, and type: 'This - that' (ASCII dash, one of them), what Word gives you is 'This — that' (an em dash in place of the ASCII dash). The change in dash size is visible on the screen.

It will also convert two ASCII dashes to an em dash. But a single one is sufficient.

The spaces matter. 'This-that' remains an ASCII dash / hyphen. But, with spaces, you get an em dash.

As another example, these were typed in Word, copied, then pasted here. The only difference in typing was the two spaces:
5-3=8
5 — 3 = 8

If you want a space in your math, but still a minus, it's a fairly laborious process unless you dig into Word and turn the feature off. You need to type it, let it convert to em dash, delete the em dash, put the regular minus back. If you dare edit either number, the em dash will return.

5-3=8
5 — 3 = 8

I typed it in my Word and copied it here:

5-3=8
5 - 3 = 8

This - That

My Word is on a Mac, but I've used Word on Windows before that and never had the hyphen converted to an em-dash.

This Microsoft site explains what's happening to you (although it's an en-dash, not an em-dash).

https://support.microsoft.com/en-us/topic/autoformat-converts-some-hyphens-to-long-dashes-in-word-a4862880-7f90-ea70-c65a-71d45adb18c1

It also provides an easier way to undo it.

Why it doesn't happen on my Mac Word I don't know.

Interesting - it looked like an em, but if it's an en, it's an en. That would remove the Word vector, unless something somewhere is converting en to em.

The en dash usually emphasizes the materials that follow it. Dashes also emphasize parenthetical thoughts and convey sudden interruptions in thought.

Isn't that bollocks? Surely that's a description of an em-dash, not an en-dash.

What is the actual length of the symbol of the Microsoft replacement - is it the length of an 'n' or an 'm'?

AJ

Isn't that bollocks? Surely that's a description of an em-dash, not an en-dash.

I just provided the link to Microsoft. I didn't sanction what they said.

I just provided the link to Microsoft. I didn't sanction what they said.

I was asking you because you know more about em-dashes than I do. I apologise for the hostility in the tone of the question.

AJ

I was asking you because you know more about em-dashes than I do.

Yes, based on the style guide I use, those dashes would be em-dashes. The primary use of the en-dash is for ranges (1–10, Jan–Jun).

I was asking you because you know more about em-dashes than I do. I apologise for the hostility in the tone of the question.

Here are my custom punctuation rules (from my self-created grammar checker):

1. Punctuation, diacritical marks, and spacing
a. Always use the Oxford comma.
b. Only one space following periods and between words.
c. The dieresis is accepted for words with double vowels that are not diphthongs (e.g., coöperate).
d. Hyphenation of words beginning with 're' is accepted (e.g., re-fire, re-enter)
e. Prefer diacritical marks for English loanwords and foreign words (e.g., naïve, née, fiancée, résumé, répertoire, Hawaiʻi, etc.).
f. Ensure all diacritical marks are accurate
g. Use of the semicolon, comma, ellipses, and em dash to denote pauses in speech
h. Use of the en dash for ranges
i. Use of the interrobang (?!)
j. Do not use parentheses; parenthetical expressions are set off with commas or em dashes.
k. Internal quotes are set off with single quotes (')
l. Commas always go outside the internal quotations (single quotes only)
m. No typographer's quotes (i.e., 'curly' quotes); only plain/straight ones.
n. Internal thoughts do not require single quotes except when necessary for clarity.
o. Foreign language text is set off by guillemets (""). English articles, etc, before guillemets are acceptable.
p. An em dash will have a space on either side
q. An en dash will not have spaces on either side.
r. Multi-paragraph same-speaker sections follow the standard open double quote for each paragraph, closing quote only for the final paragraph

g. I wouldn't use the semicolon for a pause in speech

p. My em-dashes don't have spaces on either side. But that's because I follow what they do it print books. I'm still wondering if ebooks should have the space like webpages do.

g. I wouldn't use the semicolon for a pause in speech

That seems to me like the tail wagging the dog. Yes, you'd probably pause at a semi-colon, but the that's a secondary consequence: the semi-colon should be there for some primary purpose.

AJ

My em-dashes don't have spaces on either side. But that's because I follow what they do it print books. I'm still wondering if ebooks should have the space like webpages do.

Yes, they should. Deadtree should not control eBooks or web pages.

As for deadtree itself, I think it's wrong there, too, but that's not up to me. I object to many of the space-saving things they do (newspapers, especially).

My books are too long to deadtree publish anyway.

My books are too long to deadtree publish anyway.

Only two of your books are longer than War and Peace ;-)

AJ

Only two of your books are longer than War and Peace ;-)

Let me rephrase — 'publish economically'. The cheap, print-on-demand services have page limits lower than all but my shortest stories.

I have checked. 😎

l. Commas always go outside the internal quotations (single quotes only)

In American English commas always go inside internal quotations. That's how I learned it, and anything else looks horrible to me.

In American English commas always go inside internal quotations. That's how I learned it, and anything else looks horrible to me.

You do you. It looks wrong to me to put them inside, because I'm setting off the entire quote, including the quotation mark.

I don't follow any specific convention. Other rules (not shown) allow for all manner of things considered 'wrong' by some style guide or other.

With an international audience, there are enough differences between UK and US English (not to mention Subcontinent and Asian English) it's nearly impossible to satisfy everyone. Heck, even US English style guides don't agree on many things.

even US English style guides don't agree on many things.

The major reason for using a style guide is consistency throughout your story.

The major reason for using a style guide is consistency throughout your story.

I AM using a style guide. It's applied consistently throughout all my works. I even posted part of mine here.

Not sure what your point is. That I don't follow one YOU specify? Easy to do, given there are scads of them.

Not sure what your point is. That I don't follow one YOU specify?

Where did that come from?

My point was the reason for using a style guide is to be consistent. Not my style guide. A style guide.

My preference is 2 spaces between sentences just like the old days.

That was the standard with monospaced fonts because it made the division obvious. With variable-width fonts, that specific rationale didn't apply.

HTML (for websites) mostly compresses whitespace unless you put markers into preserve spaces, carriage returns, and so on (hence 'br' tags, among others.

I hate to say it, but you're fighting a losing battle.

Btw, I do have autoformatting turned on in my Word.

So if I type (C) it automatically converts it to ©. But if I immediately hit the delete button, it goes back to (c).

That's the easiest way I know of undoing an unwanted autoformatting.

That needs clarification because I'm not sure what 'through' means. Does in mean just the time periods you mention (late 2023) or does it mean from the dawn of time until late 2023?

p

Dawn of time up until 2023/2024/2025/etc. They're constantly adding material. I doubt they're removing much, if any.

Ms Rowling had a 'proper' education, which predates the current trend where everyone thinks they have a book in them, even if illiterate.

Ms. Rowling had a typesetter. She herself might have written em dashes (she writes longhand before typing), or not. I don't know.

And yet modern keyboards now have a key for the Euro (not mine though) yet still no em-dash. I think that shows the relative demand.

I have a lot of modern keyboards. None of them has a Euro key. There must be no demand for them. /s

More seriously: there's a perfectly well-known way to type an em dash. Many writers know it. And MS Word (and quite possibly others) will replace ASCII - with em dash for you, no special key required.

However you need to be aware that some AI-detectors might flag your stories on that alone

Those are lousy, stupid AI detectors.

And, as noted, it could easily be the case that, a year from now, LLMs will have stopped producing em dashes (or be autoconverting them to ASCII dashes), and so will have writers. What then?

in the UK they have a £ (Pound) key.

At Weight Watchers, they also have a pound key.

Yes, also known as "bang": #

On my (US) keyboard, that is shift-3.

Yes, also known as "bang": #

Never. '!' is 'bang'.

'#' is: hash, pound sign, number sign, or octothorp.

In shell scripts '#!' is 'shebang' (or 'hashbang').

Where the heck does octothorp come from?

There are eight points on the symbol (octo) and it was a mapmaker's symbol for a small city ('thorpe' or 'torp' or 'thorp'), hence 'octothorp'.

Yes, you're right. I have no excuse but that I was tired and misremembered.

Still, # is shift-3 for me and ! is shift-1.

Dawn of time up until 2023/2024/2025/etc. They're constantly adding material. I doubt they're removing much, if any.

OMG, how could I have been so stupid! 2023 was about the time AI-written books started to get published. Of course the use of em-dashes has increased - it's a feedback loop!

AJ

OMG, how could I have been so stupid! 2023 was about the time AI-written books started to get published. Of course the use of em-dashes has increased - it's a feedback loop!

LLMs didn't learn em dashes from AI output. LLMs learned em dashes because the vast, vast majority of NON-AI OUTPUT out there in the world is absolutely chock full of em dashes. Em dash use spiked enormously between 2010 and 2024 in non-professionally published writing. Very, very little of that was LLM related. Most of it was vastly improved writing tools making it easy to generate em dashes.

Again, look at the example of Harry Potter. Now consider how many millions (literal millions) of professionally published fiction works were used to train LLMs. Virtually all of those contained a plethora of em dashes. That's where AI learned them.

Use is dropping now, partly because AIs are being ordered to generate fewer em dashes and partly because many writers would rather use the wrong dash than have people think they're 'AI' based on a silly 'red flag'.

Em dash use spiked enormously between 2010 and 2024 in non-professionally published writing.

That seems unlikely. Other sources say that LLMs learned em-dashes principally from professionally published works, because non-professionally published works use them far less often, if at all.

AJ

Again: MS Word will insert an em dash if you use a regular dash unless you explicitly turn it off. And MS Word is one of the most used tools for authoring, especially outside of professional publishing.

Why wouldn't you expect use to have spiked once tools commonly used inserted them automatically?

[EDIT: It looks like I'm wrong here and Word is inserting en dashes, not em dashes. There's still evidence of rising use, but it's in professional publishing. Anecdotal evidence is all over the place for other material.]

And some of the longest works on SOL without the AI-generated tag (and not AI-generated) contain even more words and do not contain em dashes.

Yeah, there was a mistake made in there. I was referring to the already mentioned long works with em dashes. I will edit, but note the edit.

On the subject of em-dashes, I found this completely useless article using Google.

AJ