I am never sure which tags to use when. Example: if a character pees during sex, but not in a watersport way, do you select that tag.
Thought 1: yes, some people hate pee stuff and would not want to read the story if it has it at all
Thought 2: no, because people who have that kink would get upset that the story basically has none of that kink
How do you suggest handling this?
Note: I apologize if this is answered elsewhere, I can not seem to find the search function for the forum.
Again, it's best to think of the dual nature of the tags, as story descriptions and as 'squick' alerts, so readers will know what not to read.
So, in your case, normal peeing fits neither, and thus doesn't need to be referenced at all (i.e. it would be ONLY if it was a stereotypical 'kink', just as you don't list 'black' simply because there's black character in a story, ONLY if it's a stereotypical racial character, half animal and only barely human, looking to screw any white women he can, merely to humiliate them.
It generally takes a while to get used to these sorts of tags, especially their conflicting dual natures. Yet if a usage is not explicitly sexual, then you don't list it.
If I understand, use tags for people to find your stories, and use descriptions to warn about possible triggers.
Thank-you,
If I understand, use tags for people to find your stories, and use descriptions to warn about possible triggers.
No. I believe tags came about to warn people about squicks. So that's the primary purpose for them. People even exclude certain tags so they never see those stories.
But when to use a tag? There is no right answer.
No. I believe tags came about to warn people about squicks.
Wasn't it the exact opposite? So readers could find the stories they wanted to read, ie, MF, mF, FF, etc etc are hardly squicks for the majority. People just used the tags to avoid objectionable (to them) content.
Wasn't it the exact opposite? So readers could find the stories they wanted to read,
It's too many years ago for me to remember, but I think tags were first used as warnings. I'm talking way before SOL.
Looking up the origin of the word "squick," I found "Originated in the Usenet newsgroup alt.sex.bondage; popularized primarily in the newsgroup alt.tasteless."
Years later, there was a user whose name began with a "U" on ASST who came up with a standard list of tags to be used and both the list and use of the tags has grown since then.
But I'll leave it to someone with a better memory than me.
I was thinking way back to the 90's and the likes of the Kristen Archives which used tags (Albeit in simplified form - there were only a few, rather than the extensive list we have these days) to tag a story's main sexual proclivities. The site and those similar and long gone, used them as a means to sort stories into rough genres.
I always took the tags as 'advertisement' rather than warnings and would look for the tags before the story.
But maybe you are right, and they were for squick avoidance and I just took their meaning the other way.
Yeah, I've been around in the pre-SOL and even the pre-Internet (USENET) days. But even then, story tags came first, and squick tags came later, when problems with the existing tags began running rampant.
However, I can't recall many of the older ASST authors, as most of us remember only the stories we prefer, rather than the various authors. Authors come and go, yet it's the stories that most prevail over time.
Now you're just making me feel old. ;-)
Tags stared in the Usenet era in the late 1980's as a way of letting people reading the various sex stories groups know whether they should finish downloading it or skip to the next one. So they started with things like MF and MM so you'd know if it was likely to be something you'd like. Then codes that upset people would get added because people looking for a romance got ticked off with things like rape.
Precisely. And SOL is unlike any other story site, as the gold rule in SOL is that you can write about virtually anything, so naturally, there are always certain stories we have NO WISH to even see, much less read (again, scat and snuff stories are only the tip of the iceberg).
So, it makes sense to specifically tag those with the most objectionable content, so those readers won't PUNISH you with the dreaded 1-ratings, by not properly rating the contents appropirately.
@Pixy
by not properly rating the contents appropirately.
No matter how many tags you add, there will always be a reader with a squick that you never thought of as something that would bother a reader. There are also readers who don't check codes and blame you for them not checking the codes.
IIRC a couple of years ago, there was one reader who claimed to become physically ill when he came across group sex scenes in a story.
FYI, the story had group sex labels, but the reader didn't check the codes before starting the story. He evidently wanted that warning to be in the description.
There are also readers who don't check codes and blame you for them not checking the codes.
I even had a reader who said he read the tags but assumed the tagged content would be off-stage.
Actually, I get that. As I can see someone opening a story with a tag, expecting to see it immediately, and when the story takes time to develop, they bail. That's when you add the tag SLOW, for "slow-building" (i.e. you'll include it eventually, but it's not the only story element).
But what if an author uses the tag in every book in a multi-book story, but it never happens until the 4th book?
When the first book came out, I saw the tag and it was one reason I started reading it. After 700kb still no use of the tag. Next book same tag, after another long tale still no still no use of the tag. 3rd book same thing. 4th book ends with a little bit of the tag.
But what if an author uses the tag in every book in a multi-book story, but it never happens until the 4th book?
Report it to the admins and they will remove the tag from the offending books. I know Laz has added missing tags to stories in the past.
Once more, 'squick' codes are similar to normal codes, so if the usage/reference is non-sexual, or it doesn't fit a specific sexual category (say, a non-racial stereotype about a BBM and a submission white woman) then you DON'T list it, just as you wouldn't add if single or even a group of characters are black or Asian amongst their white friends.
It HAS to fit the specific category!
So, compare your comment to the complaints concerning stories that list every tag they can think of. That's a red-flag for an inexperienced author if I've ever seen one. So, you list every single potential squick, whether it's sexual for fits the category, just because you're paranoid and you end up with a category list of, what 20 or 30 separate tags?
Yet, we've never gotten along, so I suspect this is yet another case of you objecting to me, whatever I say. So once again, we'll never get a long anyway, so, why even waste time venting?
You fail to understand, CW. You post many things that I find objectionable. I don't respond by attacking you unless you are posting things about me that I find inaccurate and objectionable, such as your post.
You assume that you know what I do and think. Most of the time you are wrong. Go to my Author page and check my tag count. The vast majority of my stories have a tag count of about 10-17 tags, 1 story has a tag count in the 20s, and one has only 1 tag. Your facts are wrong, but you chose to make what I consider negative comments about me, so I reply.
My assignment of codes is a perfect example. I don't add codes due to content that may be a squick to a reader. I add codes to identify the content of my story. I also only add codes that identify the predominant content of the story. I do not try to add a code for every sexual activity that takes place. Especially when the act is perhaps a hundred words out a 100,000-word story.
My personal opinion is, if I identify the predominant content of my story and a reader choses to read the story, then they have no valid reason to object. Add to that, SOL readers are supposedly adults. If they have a problem (i.e. squick) with some facit of sex and chose to read stories that have sexual content, then they need to expect to encounter scenes that mention their particular squick. That is especially true when the reader has a problem with an activity that is apparently unique to them.
Since you do not know what I do, what I think, and what I believe, stop making assumptions about me and then pontificating about your assumptions that are typically wrong. If you do that, then I won't feel the need to write posts like this one.
So, compare your comment to the complaints concerning stories that list every tag they can think of
I may be wrong (It happens often) but isn't there now a limit to how many tags you can, errr, tag to a story? Is it not fifteen in total or something?
Elvis Presly's "Return to Sender" did a pretty good job with postal service stamped messages—"no such number," "address unknown," etc.
Now I am more confused :) - so good idea to put tags for squicks (triggers)....I will keep doing that.
For tags related to sex, the circumstance determines if the tag should be used. For your example of pee, if the characters are engaged in water sports add the tag. If you mention a character has a full bladder and dribbles before getting to the bathroom as an embarrassment factor, not sexual, addition of the tag doesn't seem appropriate.
So, in your case, normal peeing fits neither, and thus doesn't need to be referenced at all (i.e. it would be ONLY if it was a stereotypical 'kink', just as you don't list 'black' simply because there's black character in a story, ONLY if it's a stereotypical racial character, half animal and only barely human, looking to screw any white women he can, merely to humiliate them.
I'm not sure I understand your comment. The "black" tag exists in the "interracial" category when the character's race is important for whatever reason, not because the character is an animal rapist. A quick category search revealed 348 stories with "consensual," "black male" and excluding "rape." The first few listings scored over 8.00.
~ JBB
That's your interpretation, not the standard interpretation.
There are many stories where there's an interracial tag, even one where they're actively having sex, that are NOT labeled as "Asian", "black", or any other racial tag. For most, we look for a specific type of story when we see a 'racial' tag (i.e. not a 'normal' relationship, yet a heavily stereotypical one.
I could list example after example, yet if you've already convinced yourself that you're correct, who am I to disperse such notions. Yet, if you tag EVERY instance of a 'interracial' relationship, I'd avoid your stories entirely, as I'd expect them all to be hateful, racist rants.
Search 1: Rape AND Black Male AND White Female with score of 7.50 or above: 15 stories
Search 2: Rape AND White Male AND Black Female with score of 7.50 or above: 16 stories
Search 3: Black Male AND White Female excluding Rape wit score of 7.50 or above: 89 stories
Search 4: Black Male AND White Female AND Romantic with score of 7.50 or above: 35
I don't know what the readers are thinking but it appears stories with black males and white females where there is no rape are more common than those with rape.
Yes, black male on white female is a thing—any of the video porn sites can help you out on that—but it appears that there's plenty more, at least on SOL, of stories where the race is important, but not limited to stereotypes of black men raping white women.
Tagged race does not appear to correlate with rape, but it's likely to be indicated when it's important to the story: an interracial couple overcoming prejudice is one example.
Do you have examples that show otherwise?
Search 5: Cuckold [AND] Black Male [AND] White Female, [Removing] Rape with score of 7.50 or above: 19 stories
Cuckold is consensual between the lovers, but can also be consensual, i.e., with the consent of the cuckolded partner, right?
Cuckold is consensual between the lovers, but can also be consensual, i.e., with the consent of the cuckolded partner, right?
I guess. I don't read cuckold stories.
But I would think the first would involve humiliation of the husband while the second would involve the husband getting off on wife watching.
I read a series of stories recently where the son got it on with his mother and she was most excited when the father was nearby. So was the son cuckolding his father if his father didn't know?
Yes to all of the above. I don't read stories coded cuckold, but there are good stories where dad doesn't know, and good ones where he does.
Update: the site definition of cuckold is:
When man is being forced to accept his wife's cheating against his will.
I don't know what the readers are thinking but it appears stories with black males and white females where there is no rape are more common than those with rape.
Isn't this a flawed example? You have added a minimum quality rating, so all it tells us, is that search three has better writers.
Does your conclusion still have merit if the score is removed from the equation?
You're right, it's not a survey of every story. I figured a cutoff would give us better writers, and I figured that's more interesting than lower-scoring stuff.
I figured a cutoff would give us better writers,
I didn't think of it, but the 7.50 probably skewed the results because "rape" is a squick to many and stories with rape probably score lower. Nothing to do with the quality of the writer.
Another rabbit hole, sigh. Stories voted down because the reader doesn't like it. And once more we turn to the question of why someone would read a story coded with something he's not gonna like and then voted down because he didn't like it.
I still think the numbers support the argument that, whatever the black code might've signifed back in the day, today it just means a character who is black for an important plot reason but doesn't indicate by itself a predilection for predatory behavior
nd once more we turn to the question of why someone would read a story coded with something he's not gonna like and then voted down because he didn't like it
Or maybe they didn't read it. Perhaps they went straight to the end and down voted it based on the tags alone. Perhaps skimming it just enough to verify that it was accurately tagged.
Or perhaps, like the reader I mentioned up thread, they assumed it would be mentioned, but not actually described in an on-stage way.
The "black" tag exists in the "interracial" category
Black/white pairings used to be potential squicks, but nowadays I think readers from most cultures likely to read SOL stories would just say 'So what?' because they're so commonplace in real life. Apartheid and segregation are mostly history in the developed world.
One of my higher-rated stories has a black/white pairing that I didn't bother to tag and nobody has complained.
AJ
Black/white pairings used to be potential squicks
I believe just the opposite. I believe the interracial tag was intended for people looking for stories with black men and white women. There was (is?) a fetish for that. Just like if you search for cuckold videos, they're typically a white wife with black lover while the wimp white husband watches.
Now, being more inclusive, the meaning of "interracial" is watered down.
I believe just the opposite.
Black/white pairings used to have a sense of taboo about them because of apartheid and hostility towards miscegenation. So some readers considered the pairing a squick and others deliberately sought them out because of the forbidden nature.
So we're probably both right.
AJ
I'm not fond of having to tag my stories. As a reader, I tend not to pay much attention to them. I would love to see the admin make use of an AI which could supply tags in a manner the admin deemed appropriate. Same goes for story categorization and for indicating the degree of sex.
Something I find challenging :-(
It's more than challenging. It's impossible to get right because there's no clear definition.
The winning story of this year's April Fools contest was listed as "minimal sex." In my opinion, it has no sex. In my stories, what I call "some sex" many people would call "much sex."
I liked the old definitions better where "stroke" was no plot, no character development. Pure stroke. Therefore, if an author classified his story as "much sex," it would be understood to be a real story. But today, many readers see "much sex" and don't bother reading the story because they think it's stroke.
many readers see "much sex" and don't bother reading the story because they think it's stroke.
To me "much sex" is when more than half the story is about people having sex. It still can have a good story though. It can make you feel like a little girl with how much skipping you do. Some authors cheat and use "Some sex" but turns out a whole lot of sex goes on.
Reluctant_Sir in his description for his story of "Darkest Days" "WARNING: This starts in a dark place but don't be put off by the tags, they don't tell the story. Take a chance, you won't regret it!" I did take the chance and glad I did.
Some authors cheat and use "Some sex" but turns out a whole lot of sex goes on.
Not cheating. Like I said, subjective.
A lot of my "some sex" stories have a lot of sex, but there's a lot of story as well.
Some authors cheat and use "Some sex" but turns out a whole lot of sex goes on.
To me it's about the overall content. If there is more story than sex by a wide margin, then it's 'some sex' even if there is a lot of sex.
To me it's about the overall content. If there is more story than sex by a wide margin, then it's 'some sex' even if there is a lot of sex.
Yeah, that's how I think of it. But the "wide margin" part is subjective.
To me "much sex" is when more than half the story is about people having sex.
I have a problem with the "amount of sex" terms. They are all relative regarding how much sex there is in a story. I don't have a better method, so I live with what we have.
I've been taken in by a "Some Sex" classification in the past. When I start reading there is some plot development. Then the sex scenes start. From that point on, it seems like there are 10 pages of sex scenes to less than a page of plot development. Of course, I would have difficulty supporting that ratio for I stop reading and delete the story from my library because the story appears to be what I would classify as a "Stroke" story.
there is some plot development. Then the sex scenes start. From that point on, it seems like there are 10 pages of sex scenes to less than a page of plot development.
Aha, but a sex scene could be part of the plot development. And more importantly, the character development and character relationships.
True of some stories. I don't have a problem with sex scenes integrated with a plot. My problem is with stories that have no comprehensible plot being used to support unending sex scenes.
One story in particular that I remember, Chapter 1 started with introducing the MC and mention of what seemed to be the story's plot. Then there were about ten pages of insert tab A into slots A, B, and C with lots of gasping, moaning, and no personal interaction between the participants. Half a page of trying to revive the plot which immediately leads to another ten pages of insert tab A into slots A, B, and C with lots of gasping, moaning, and no personal interaction. Then repeat for remainder of chapter.
I typically skim through that type of sex scene and try to understand the half page of plot. I started the second chapter hoping the pattern would change. It didn't. So I deleted the story from my library.
Early in posting Book 1 of Variation on a Theme, I had readers (sometimes on the same day!) write me to say:
"Some Sex? There's no sex at all!"
and
"Some Sex? It's all sex! There's nothing but sex!"
Both were, in one sense, somewhat true. There was no actual sex at all at that point. The closest was making out, masturbating while someone watched, and touching (still through clothes, I think). But much of (not all of!) the story was focused on dating, relationships, and so forth.
I just wrote polite replies and kept going. There's no real way to 'fix' that, because it relies on what people think 'sex' is, and we've had that become a fixation of national politics before.
@Mat Twassel
indicating the degree of sex.
That is the most subjective one for the author.
Yes. From my point of view a story could be wholly about sex (which isn't hard when my stories are often only a couple of hundred words with a few illustrations), but there might not be any explicit sexual thing in the story. Or only one sentence. I'd probably mark it as lots of sex, but someone who wants to read explicit sex might be annoyed. Well, how annoyed could one be having to labor through two hundred words and not finding enough explicit sex to ... whatever.
I would love to see the admin make use of an AI which could supply tags in a manner the admin deemed appropriate. Same goes for story categorization and for indicating the degree of sex.
This is one of the most frightening suggestions I have ever read.
"AI" aka a LLM "Limited Language Model(s)" are, at least for now, and the foreseeable future, prone to "Holucinating" in other words "making up" words or concepts Not in whatever the AI has "reviewed"...
Not only would it be a waste of time for Laz to modify an AI to generate Tags for stories on SoL; it would likely be worse than the foibles of too many who post stories on SoL 😉
It might be better to trust a "Monkey banging on a typewriter, than to trust a LLM, to generate Tags."
Paladin_HGWT 🚫5/22/2025, 3:45:16 AM
@Mat Twassel
I would love to see the admin make use of an AI which could supply tags in a manner the admin deemed appropriate. Same goes for story categorization and for indicating the degree of sex.
This is one of the most frightening suggestions I have ever read.
I think it's not just doable but that it could work quite well. SoL had tens of thousands of tagged stories. So AI just has to learn those stories and how they are tagged. Then it has to have some definition of the tags. It can now figure out how the tags fit the stories. From there it applies that "knowledge" to the submitted story. Piece of cake.
I did a quick test with CoPilot.
Is it possible for you to ascertain the degree of certain qualities in a piece of writing? For instance, to what degree does the story contain violence? None. Some. Much. Does the story contain information about fruit? None. Some. Much.
Absolutely! I can analyze a piece of writing and determine the presence and degree of specific qualities, such as violence or references to fruit. I'd look for explicit descriptions, themes, and frequency of relevant words or phrases.
If you have a text you'd like me to evaluate, feel free to share it, and I can provide a breakdown of its content. Would you like me to assess a story for you?
Can you report on those two aspects for James Joyce's short story "The Dead"?
Certainly! The Dead by James Joyce is a nuanced and introspective story that explores themes of memory, identity, and emotional revelation. Here's an assessment of the two aspects you asked about:
• Violence: The story contains none in the traditional sense. There are no physical altercations or explicit violent events. However, there are moments of emotional intensity, particularly in Gabriel's realization about his wife's past love, which could be considered a form of psychological or emotional turmoil.
• Fruit: The story contains some references to food, including fruit. There are mentions of meals and hospitality, as the setting revolves around a festive gathering. While fruit is not a central theme, it appears in descriptions of the dinner and the atmosphere of the event.
Here is CoPilot's evaluation of a poem on SoL with respect to violence and fruit:
Here's my assessment of the poem based on the two aspects you requested:
- Violence: This poem contains much violent imagery, both directly and indirectly. It references riots, looting, destruction, and societal upheaval, using strong language that conveys aggression and conflict. While the violence described is not physical in the sense of literal actions taking place, the poem critiques events and behaviors that involve violence and destruction.
- Fruit: This poem contains none in terms of actual references to fruit. The word "fruit" does appear, but in a metaphorical sense rather than referring to literal produce. The phrase "cloak your deceptive fruit" uses "fruit" figuratively to imply outcomes or consequences rather than tangible fruit.
On your last comment: I am nearly certain the monkey would do a far worse job than an AI. AIs do sometimes hallucinate, but the monkey will hallucinate the tag 50% of the time (that, or generate invalid tags 99%+ of the time, depending on whether the typewriter has letters or tags).
The question here is whether the AI would do a poorer job than the author, and I think that's an extremely gray area that would be interesting to test. My suspicion is that it would do an iffy job because many of the tags are poorly defined in practice and because it would massively overtag most stories.
It also has to get things into the context buffer, which is hard. I have an encounter that would justify the (actually untagged) tag 'Indian Female' (sex between a caucasian guy and an Indian-heritage girl). But her heritage is discussed quite a long distance from the encounter. Will the AI 'remember' that she's Indian? Who knows?
I also have a black guy / white girl couple, but they never have sex on page. Would the AI decide they 'counted?' Who the heck knows?
For shorter stories, I suspect overall accuracy would be pretty high, but there would occasionally be some bonehead mistagging. For longer works, I have no idea what might happen.
My impression from reading the thread so far is that tags are used both ways. (In fact, I have used them in both directions, myself.)
Readers might use a tag to avoid stories with their worst squick or trigger. Those readers may be upset if that squick appears even briefly in your story, and you failed to tag it.
Other readers might use the same tag to find stories with their favorite kink. These readers might then be disappointed if you use the tag, but that kink doesn't appear prominently in your story.
This leaves a lot of ambiguous cases, where the author has to decide. In this case, you have to weigh the concerns of both sides.
In the case of an obvious trigger, like rape, I would lean to the side of tagging when there is any explicit scene, even though that might disappoint a lot of fans who want lots of it. At the other extreme, I cannot imagine a tag like "Steampunk" being a squick, so I would only use the tag if I thought the story would appeal to steampunk fans.
In the case in your original question, it doesn't sound like it would appeal to watersport enthusiasts. It also doesn't sound like the sort of scene that would make anyone squick (of course, I may be completely wrong about that). I would leave that tag off.
Those readers may be upset if that squick appears even briefly in your story, and you failed to tag it.
What readers need to realize is that Authors are allowed 50 tags maximum. If there is a potential for more than 50 tags, "which tags don't get listed?" That is a judgement call that will not satisfy everyone.
There is also the fact that after working on a story for a year or more, Authors don't recall every scene in the story. Thus some tags don't get added.
I would lean to the side of tagging when there is any explicit scene, even though that might disappoint a lot of fans who want lots of it.
Why would an Author adding a tag related to an activity a reader likes disappoint the reader? Tags don't stop readers from reading a story.
I don't even try to add every possible tag that might apply to my stories and that is especially true due to the 50-tag limit. I add the tags that address the primary activities in the story and its storyline. My personal attitude is readers need to take responsibility for choosing to read stories that include adult sexual content. If they encounter content in one of my stories that is a squick to them, they can always stop reading my story and add me to their list of blocked readers.
Why would an Author adding a tag related to an activity a reader likes disappoint the reader?
I don't want to speak for @Diamond Porter, but I think what he meant was that when the reader sees the tag they like, they might expect a lot of that in the story and be disappointed if they don't get lots of it.
I add the tags that address the primary activities in the story and its storyline.
That's my philosophy as well. And it has nothing to do with the 50 tag limit, although I don't like having a lot of tags because so many people here say that's an indication of a poor story. But just because someone gets a blowjob in the story doesn't mean I will have the "oral sex" tag.
I think what he meant was that when the reader sees the tag they like, they might expect a lot of that in the story and be disappointed if they don't get lots of it.
I can understand being disappointed for that reason. That is one of the outcomes of adding tags for an activity in a story that does not have a lot of that type of activity. Use of tags in that type of situation to attract readers can have a negative effect.
Tags don't stop readers from reading a story.
They do me. I like G. Younger but a few of his latest stories I didn't get past the tags.
They do me.
It is not the tag that stops you from reading the story. What stops you is learning that a particular type of activity is in the story.
You always have the option of reading the story, even if you see tags of activity that you would prefer to not be exposed to.
You always have the option of reading the story, even if you see tags of activity that you would prefer to not be exposed to.
Don't people have the ability to exclude stories with certain tags? They will never see those stories (except for the random story on the home page).
They will never see those stories (except for the random story on the home page).
I might be wrong but I got the impression from somewhere that every reader gets the same home page feed. I believe that even if an author is excluded, the reader can still see their stories on their home page.
AJ
I might be wrong but I got the impression from somewhere that every reader gets the same home page feed. I believe that even if an author is excluded, the reader can still see their stories on their home page.
That matches my recollection, but some of use never or rarely use the home page.
I might be wrong but I got the impression from somewhere that every reader gets the same home page feed. I believe that even if an author is excluded, the reader can still see their stories on their home page.
The point was that readers can exclude tags and, when they do, stories with those tags are not seen.
It was in response to "You always have the option of reading the story, even if you see tags of activity that you would prefer to not be exposed to."
I fail to see the correlation between the two statements.
If the tag was selected to exclude the story and the story included the tag, then my point would not occur. If my point occurs, the tag was not selected as a reason to not display the story.
What is the problem?
The point was that readers can exclude tags and, when they do, stories with those tags are not seen.
Except on the Home Page.
AJ
I don't use the exclude feature, I just pass over stories that have certain tags. Easy one is the snuff tag.