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How To Write Dialog for a Less Educated Character?

Marius-6 🚫

I try to follow the advice to: "Show, Don't Tell" as much as possible.

I am writing some dialog for a teen girl, who due to the Covid-19 pandemic, her school was closed, and then other circumstances, she never returned to school. However, she is an avid reader, books, public library, and online stories. Albeit there are too many contemporary "dead tree" books, and even more online stories that have poor grammar, and even spelling.

Listening to teens talk while I am walking at the nearby parks, or mall, teens, and adults, rarely use proper grammar in their ordinary conversations.

When I write well educated characters I often have them use few, if any contrations, and display a greater vocabulary.

Currently I don't have an Editor, nor even a proper Proofreader. I do, sometimes, send some stuff to a friend or two, and consider their feedback. However, those friends are rather busy, and I am trying to post a story or three before the end of May.

While reading through, and self editing, I am not completely happy with how I have written this dialog. Rather, it "sounds like I think it should" however, I am concerned people might just think it is me the writer who has made gramatical errors, and not the character.

I am sure that others have similar issues. So, I am looking for some general advice, rather than specific advice.

If someone is interested in reviewing a few of the most problematic, to me, paragraphs, PM me.

Crumbly Writer 🚫

@Marius-6

Keep in mind, avid teen readers rarely speak the same as their smartphone-obsessed peers. Way back when I was a wee lad, I was reading the great ancient Greek and Ex-Pat Russian authors, while my English Lit class was reading the novel "Jaws". The NOVEL, not the film. What's more, I read them at pretty much at the same time, as "Jaws" was hardly much of an intellectual hurdle.

As always, the nerds get the high-tech jobs, while the 'dumb jocks' and cheerleaders get all the popularity and dates they want. It's a simple case of the have and the have nots, only bickering over what's more valuable to possess.

So, consider who's speaking, and what their 'voice', how they express themselves, would be. Do they speak in full sentences and rush through a string of short, run-on sentences in a single 'stream-of-conscience' ramble.

Who do you think the old song "Valley Girl" was so popular? Frank Zappa was poking fun at how his daughter, Moon Unit's friends spoke. She spoke in complete sentences, yet they both crafted their careers on the spoof. Thus making fun of vacuous teen banter spoke for the attitude of several generations.

That said, also consider the pace of their speaking. Do they speak slowly and enunciating carefully, or do they speak quickly, trying to 'catch up' with their thoughts before they dissipate before their eyes? If you're speaking that fast, it's almost impossible to formulate complete sentences on the fly. So focus on capturing their speaking pace to better reflect their unique character voices.

julka 🚫

@Marius-6

I am concerned people might just think it is me the writer who has made gramatical errors, and not the character.

Consistency is key here. If your character's voice is consistent, that will help make it clear to the reader that errors are deliberately placed.

Replies:   Crumbly Writer
Crumbly Writer 🚫

@julka

Yeah, consistency is vital, as a character who switches from 'valley speak' to full on eloquence is NOT believable. They can speak sensibly, speaking slower to make a point, yet they still speak in a consistent manner, which is why character voices are composed of 'their unique manner of expressing themselves' (i.e. how they string and compose their sentences together).

Replies:   Grey Wolf
Grey Wolf 🚫

@Crumbly Writer

It can be believable if the 'valley speak' is a carefully crafted put-on intended to lull listeners into a false sense of security. If the reader knows what's going on within a reasonable amount of time, they become 'in on the joke' and can have a lot of fun with it.

awnlee jawking 🚫
Updated:

@Marius-6

I am writing some dialog for a teen girl, who due to the Covid-19 pandemic, her school was closed, and then other circumstances, she never returned to school. However, she is an avid reader, books, public library, and online stories.

I'm confused. The girl sounds like a more educated person relative to her peers.

ETA cf oyster50's Smart Girls.

AJ

jimq2 🚫

@Marius-6

Be sure to note in the description that some of the dialog is female teen speak.

REP 🚫
Updated:

@Marius-6

When I write well educated characters I often have them use few, if any contractions, and display a greater vocabulary.

Most of us have a few friends that are well educated. You have been around your well-educated friends. How do they talk in a non-formal setting? Do they use contractions and grammatically correct sentences? I doubt it. They are trying to fit in with their friends. Therefore, they probably use grammatical structures similar to those they hear their friends use. They probably use contractions and sentence fragments.

I believe that the relaxed grammar used in those conversations should be the goal when writing dialog.

Replies:   Crumbly Writer
Crumbly Writer 🚫

@REP

Sorry, I don't know about your friends, but most of mine are both intellectual and well-acquainted with both grammar and proper sentences. There's a difference between 'eduquated' and literate (able to both read and speak in an 'informed' structure, and not like they just climbed off the bus from the local international airport.

Living in the rural soul, I'm more than familiar with local lingos, yet I get along with the local, yet refuse to abase myself (lowering myself to their standards, merely to gain a few short-term friends who obviously won't be around long if we can't even speak the same frigging language.

Do you think I write the way I do because it's purely accidental? Accents are examples of establishing a character's unique 'voice', yet the narration should always be clear and easy for anyone to comprehend, no matter WTF they happen to reside.

We write for our readers, not your buds, and one thing readers like to do is to read, comprehending it wherever the character, author or their 'buddies' just happen to be from.

Replies:   REP
REP 🚫
Updated:

@Crumbly Writer

We write for our readers, not your buds,

Who the hell do you think you are? Lose the ego and pull the stick out of your ass. You are not the epitome of a perfect writer.

As you typically do - you set yourself above us and came out swinging with your "I'm superior to you and I know the right way to do this because I'm a professional author" attitude. In the process, you insulted me, my friends, other authors, and their friends.

My advice was not about my "buds".

I suggested that authors who had difficulty writing dialog listen to how their friends speak in a non-formal setting. Then those authors should use their "buds" speech patterns and grammar as a pattern for writing the narrative in their stories.

At no time did I indicate that the authors and their friends lacked intelligence or good language skills as you implied when you posted:

Sorry, I don't know about your friends, but most of mine are both intellectual and well-acquainted with both grammar and proper sentences.

You also posted:

There's a difference between 'eduquated' and literate (able to both read and speak in an 'informed' structure, and not like they just climbed off the bus from the local international airport.

Apparently, what you posted is your true opinion of us "amateur" SOL authors and our acquaintances.

You may have numerous acquaintances in your local area, but I doubt you have many true friends, because of your "yet refuse to abase myself (lowering myself to their standards" attitude to getting to know people you just met.

Bondi Beach 🚫
Updated:

@Marius-6

You've identified the key source for authenticity: listening to the way real examples (teen girls in this case) of your characters speak.

Two authors who are excellent at various accents and vocabularies over social/ethnic/educational classes: John D. MacDonald and Elmore Leonard. (ETA: Carl Hiaasen)

~ JBB

Replies:   Crumbly Writer
Crumbly Writer 🚫

@Bondi Beach

Each generation (i.e. every twenty years) they generally post a "How the younger generation speaks" post (though I can't remember who precisely posts them). But they'll review the latest linguist changes from the previous generations and the latest one, making it relatively simply to use those American English patterns in your stories.

I strongly suspect it's regularly posted by a favored Independent Publishing Group, which surveys what they learn from their various members, comparing their various writing standards.

Replies:   Bondi Beach
Bondi Beach 🚫
Updated:

@Crumbly Writer

I strongly suspect it's regularly posted by a favored Independent Publishing Group, which surveys what they learn from their various members, comparing their various writing standards.

If you have direct but not creepy access to the natives, i.e., teen girls, copying what you hear from them is probably more accurate than second or third hand from surveys.

ETA: although the trick might really be to find the right source, less educated, more educated, white, black, etc., etc.

Replies:   jimq2  Bondi Beach
jimq2 🚫

@Bondi Beach

Just hang around the food court at the local mall... Yaknow.

Replies:   Bondi Beach
Bondi Beach 🚫

@jimq2

What he said.

Bondi Beach 🚫
Updated:

@Bondi Beach

This is probably overdoing it, but here's an example of non-creepy field work from The New Yorker magazine. Granted, the investigator was a 70-something woman and the subjects golden teenage girls in NYC, but still.

A quick summary and commentary, also from New Yorker:

Michael Schulman
Staff writer

Lord knows what the gaggle of tenth graders chewing French fries and puffing Marlboro Lights made of the small septuagenarian woman who approached them at Jackson Hole, a burger joint on Ninety-first and Madison, claiming to be a magazine writer. Surely they knew nothing about Lillian Ross, the legend, who had written famous portraits of Ernest Hemingway and John Huston. (Who were they, anyway? Like, old guys?) Ross was fifty years into her career at The New Yorker, where she'd helped perfect the form of the Talk of the Town piece, with its cool, friendly eye and its limber, syncopated rhythms. For whatever reason, the Jackson Hole girls let her in on their chatter, as they planned their weekend and commiserated over a pop quiz in French class. "I was immediately fond of them, in their honesty and in their straightforwardness," Ross later wrote. "I was deeply touched by the way they accepted me, strangely enough, as one of them."

Image may contain: Book, Publication, Page, Text, Person, Reading, and Baby
February 20 & 27, 1995

The resulting story, "The Shit-Kickers of Madison Avenue," appeared in the magazine's seventieth-anniversary issue, in February, 1995. It runs sixteen hundred words—long for a Talk piece, short for an instant classic—and is filled with gabby, anxious, kooky, self-dramatizing teen talk. ("I sweat Henry? Who you sweat? Anybody?") Ross, a longtime Upper East Sider, had noticed the daily flight path of private-school kids—Nightingale girls, Buckley boys—along the west side of Madison (the "cool" side). She observed them in the wild, like a nature documentarian watching a herd of grazing antelopes, as they kissed hello and showed off their new lace-up boots, or "shit-kickers." She begins, "The tenth graders heading up Madison Avenue at 7:30 A.M. to the private high schools are freshly liberated from their dental braces, and their teeth look pearly and magnificent. They are fifteen years old." When I started writing Talk pieces, eleven years later, I read and reread "Shit-Kickers," trying to absorb its joyful simplicity. Ross always made it look easy.

After her son started school, she heard from a teacher that Jackson Hole was an "in" hangout, so she infiltrates a table of girls there at lunch. Hot with anticipation for a party at a midtown club, the girls fuss over what they'll wear and where they'll pregame with vodka and orange juice. (One of them is grounded.) Ross catches them again on the other side of the weekend, disappointed; the party was a bust. Ross didn't believe in tape recorders—she thought they got in the way of true listening—but her rendering of the girls' dialogue invites the reader into their buzzing inner world. You can sense her delight in the upspeak, the exuberance, the rituals of fries and ketchup and onion rings. Like her friend J. D. Salinger, Ross loved the openness of young people and wrote about them often. She doesn't name the girls in "Shit-Kickers," identifying them as "the entrepreneur" or "the one who got home at three." Nevertheless, as she recalled in her book "Reporting Back," the piece "caused a bit of an uproar among some parents and teachers, but very few of them said that it was misrepresentative."

It's hard to see how anyone could be scandalized. "Shit-Kickers" has none of the salaciousness of Larry Clark's film "Kids," which came out that summer, or later depictions of Upper East Side preppies, such as "Cruel Intentions" and "Gossip Girl." There's no finger-wagging at their hedonism or their privilege; they're just kids, still outgrowing their baby fat, but with the ersatz sophistication of New York City teens. I should know. I grew up on the Upper East Side, attended one of the schools mentioned in the piece, and sometimes went to Jackson Hole for burgers. I was in ninth grade when Ross's subjects were in tenth. I saw how the oddity of adolescence in the upscale Manhattan of the Giuliani years—the too-lavish bar mitzvahs, shoplifting at Bloomingdale's—crossed with normal teen-age preoccupations, like crushes and algebra tests. Jackson Hole is on Sixty-fourth now, and teen-agers still pass through there, speaking a different slang. But much else has changed. Six months after "Shit-Kickers" was published, Windows 95 hit retail, and kids started planning their weekends on e-mail, then AOL Instant Messenger, then Facebook, then Snapchat. Ross, in her winsome slice of New York life, had inadvertently captured the last gasp of teendom before it went online forever.

DBActive 🚫

@Marius-6

As a reader, I think the effort to write dialog imitating another demographic fails 99% of the time. It sounds false, out-of-date or clumsy.
The only way you might get realistic dialog is to find a socially active teen and have her rewrite those portions for you.

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