When describing characters, how do you handle race? Do you, for example, use African-American. Or do you use black (or capitalize it as Black)? If one of your characters is the type who would use the n-word, do you let the character do that? Do you allow characters to use racial slurs? Inter-racial dating (including sex)? When you describe inter-racial relations, do you take greater care in writing than you would if only one race were involved?
Lowercase, Oxford English for a description. "... her caramel skin against the lapus of her sleeve."
Capitalized if in speech where someone is representing the race. "God, Asian engineers design such cute trucks!"
Use the dialogue the character would use. "Bitch, get yo black ass back into that car and drive on back the fuck home."
I use the terms appropriate to the times (e.g. 'colored', negro, black, African-American, etc). I do have my characters use slurs when appropriate to the character (and that's rare, e.g. WWII vet referring to 'Japs').
I've used (besides the above) — 'Oriental', 'Latino', 'Chicano', 'Hispanic', and a few others in context. Again, I try to follow the then-current usage (same as I do in referring to 'the Ukraine' and 'the Crimea' pre-Soviet dissolution).
Latino
Certain wokelish guides in the UK advise using Latinx to avoid upsetting Latinas :-(
No, I don't know how to pronounce it.
AJ
Every Latino I know hates the term "Latinex". It's a manufactured word designed to soothe the nerves of white female gender studies majors.
It's a manufactured word designed to soothe the nerves of white female gender studies majors.
Absolutely the case. None of my 'Chicano' friends here in Chicago (term is basically no longer used) think 'Latinx' is anything other than f-cking stupid Gringos who don't know anything about Hispanic culture.
Of course, the same jackasses who would fly a Confederate battle flag object to my Mexican friends flying a Mexican flag on Cinco de Mayo.
The left AND right have totally lost the plot.
Absolutely the case. None of my 'Chicano' friends here in Chicago (term is basically no longer used) think 'Latinx' is anything other than f-cking stupid Gringos who don't know anything about Hispanic culture.
And by the same token, I refuse to use "Native American".
I myself am of Indian descent, and am proud to call myself an "American Indian". And the word was acceptable to my mother, my grandparents, and my great-grandparents. I find absolutely nothing offensive in it, and have actually lived on the edges of Indian reservations and none of my friends that lived on them objected to the term either.
But I always shake my head when some "Angry White Person" will scream at me because that is the word I choose to use to describe myself. And of course it does not help my opinion of that type of person that they have made it illegal for any school to use an Indian or any imagery related to such as a school mascot.
Which is particularly sad as actual Indian Schools have been forced to replace their mascots away from one that was actually put in place to honor their own heritage.
Which is particularly sad as actual Indian Schools have been forced to replace their mascots away from one that was actually put in place to honor their own heritage.
My personal list of nicknames or mascots that I am 75% sure is guaranteed to not offend almost anyone:
Native American: There's a meme going around with Jason Mamoa "proudly proclaiming that I am a Native American." His father was a Native Hawaiian. That's the first time I ever heard that usage.
Except, in that case, they're referring to Hawaii having it's own indigenous culture, long before America took over their entire culture, just as it long has any indigenous culture, thus I'm assuming his use of "Native American" is an ironic, rather than a 'patriotic' comment.
No, I don't know how to pronounce it.
It's pronounced just as it's spelled "Latin-X". And yes, most Latinas hate it, as it's essentially dancing around the issue, rather than avoiding it directly (i.e. politically correct rather than honest or straightforward.
Besides, rather than referring to an entire race as if they're all the exact same, generally it's better referring to specific communities (ex: Mexicans, South Americans, etc.), as those are distinct communities rather than purely racial presumptions.
it's better referring to specific communities (ex: Mexicans, South Americans
Don't know about South Americans. I once brought someone over on a work Visa from Venezuela to work in my Florida office. I made the mistake of saying to him that he was Argentina and he corrected me. I stupidly said something like, "Argentina, Venezuela, same thing." That didn't go over well with him. So I doubt South America is considered a specific community by people in each country there.
[Note - first time posting this broke; I am deleting the broken reply]
So ... I have been sitting this one out quietly, because mostly I don't have any great ideas and others have covered it.
Today changed that, at least in terms of having an interesting anecdote to share.
Listened to a woman speaking about immigration. She identified herself as 'chicana' in her biography, so I assume that's a proper term as far as she's concerned. She also used 'Hispanic' a number of times, as did an audience member, so - again - that seems fine. She was talking about people from many countries, so any narrower community wouldn't work.
Halfway through, she said 'Latin-(some sound I couldn't make out)'. A bit later, she repeated it, and it became clear. She was saying the 'X' in the way the 'X' in Mexico is pronounced in Mexico, or the way Bexar County, Texas is properly pronounced - a soft 'h' (or 'hy'-ish) sound. So, 'Latin-eh', more or less. A very quick '-eh', taking no more time to say than -o or -a.
I had a chance to talk to her after the presentation. She said 1) that's the proper pronunciation of 'LatinX' within the US-resident Hispanic community, 2) anyone saying 'Latin-ecks' is an idiot and deserves to be laughed at, and 3) it's a very popular term in the US-resident Hispanic community, particularly amongst latinas who do not want to be lumped in as 'latinos' and do not like the clunky 'latinos or latinas' phrasing (in much the same way as English reembraced the gender-neutral 'they' to avoid 'him or her', 'he or she', etc).
Now, it's certainly possible that she was just a 'woke activist' pushing the 'party line'. But she works with Spanish-speaking US-resident Hispanic people most of the time, and her talk was about helping gringos learn how to better interact with such people, build bridges, and help them on matters related to immigration status, etc. It makes little sense that she would advocate for a term that was not well-liked in that community.
So ... who knows? It makes a decent amount of sense, simply in terms of how 'X' is pronounced in Spanish and there being some value in avoiding clunky constructions or trying to make 'latino' gender-neutral the way people tried to make 'he/him/his/etc' gender-neutral. Want something to be gender-neutral? Pick a word for that!
Halfway through, she said 'Latin-(some sound I couldn't make out)'. A bit later, she repeated it, and it became clear. She was saying the 'X' in the way the 'X' in Mexico is pronounced in Mexico, or the way Bexar County, Texas is properly pronounced - a soft 'h' (or 'hy'-ish) sound. So, 'Latin-eh', more or less. A very quick '-eh', taking no more time to say than -o or -a.
I think it more likely she was saying 'Latine' rather than 'Latinx'.
The Spanish 'x' sound doesn't automatically come with an 'e' sound at the beginning, and Hispanics who use Latinx allegedly usually pronounce it according to Anglo-Saxon rules, saying the name of the letter 'x' resulting in 'Latinequis'.
AJ
It came out as 'Latine', but she confirmed it was 'Latin-X with Spanish X'.
You are correct that it does not automatically come with that sound, but it's flexible enough that it doesn't feel 'off' to add it. Many uses of it have a leading e, so people are comfortable with that phonetic space.
Now, it's entirely possible that this is a retronym explanation to allow 'latinx' to be pronounced the same way as 'latine'. We didn't get into that. But it works, in general.
Well, it works at least for people who don't have a problem with 'x' in general. Some people don't like 'x' since it wasn't part of indigenous languages. There may be other reasons. But e.g. the movement to denounce Mexico - with the x - as the name of the country is relatively small, and most people don't seem to have a big problem with it.
Now, it's entirely possible that this is a retronym explanation to allow 'latinx' to be pronounced the same way as 'latine'. We didn't get into that. But it works, in general.
If Google is to be believed, 'Latine' is the Hispanics own choice ahead of the Anglo-Saxon 'Latinx'.
But I'm not familiar with either.
AJ
You are correct that it does not automatically come with that sound, but it's flexible enough that it doesn't feel 'off' to add it. Many uses of it have a leading e, so people are comfortable with that phonetic space.
It's a bit horrible to pronounce after a consonant. There's a lot of 'nh' in Portuguese - that's pronounced 'ny' rather than aspirated - and the Spanish 'x' is harsher than 'h'. Of course, they could always pronounce the 'x' the Basque way, making Latinsh, which is easier than Latinx where the 'x' is pronounced like the 'ch' in 'loch'
Meshico anyone?
AJ
I suspect you move in a left wing community 'silo' just as others on here move in libertarian, right wing and military silos. Community organiser types infest all such balkanised communities, setting the 'approved boundaries' of thought and speech. You just described one.
I try to move in a bunch of silos, but that's one, sometimes. If you find yourself in a silo, get out, or at least visit other ones regularly.
My question was more general: if the term is not liked among the community at large, why encourage gringos to use it? Wouldn't you suggest they use terms the community embraces.
The interesting thing here is that the term she disliked was the ostensibly 'woke' one (LatinX with the ecks pronunciation). Maybe 'Latin-ecks' is on its way out in the silo? I wouldn't know - it's been probably a year since I heard someone say it out loud. Last night doesn't count, obviously :)
I suspect it's cultural engineering. Creating one androgynous blob. Removing the definite male / female divide in language & roles. Plump white Italian Ariana Grande becoming a skinny brown Hispanic & slim negro Beyonce becoming a big bootied, big tittied white woman is another example of social engineering. With loyalty to the right brands and the medical establishment any girl or tranny can meet the new standards of beauty. This became the obvious attack vector when Occupy Wall Street was diverted and subverted. I could go into a lot more detail, but it would become very political very quickly,so I'll leave it alone.
colored
What's the term for being afraid of people who are afraid to use 'colour' in the racial sense?
Coulro phobia :-)
AJ
When describing characters, how do you handle race? Do you, for example, use African-American. Or do you use black (or capitalize it as Black)?
That would be highly dependent on the setting and time frame.
I do not consider African-American a race. It would make no sense to call a Sudanese immigrant to the UK "African-American". I would however use it where appropriate in a story set in the US when that term was in favor.
I've also seen morons try to claim that Cleopatra (queen of Egypt in the first century BC) was African-American. Cleopatra was of Macedonian Greek lineage, not sub-Saharan African. Not to mention that America(as in the United States of) did not exist in the first century BC.
I've also seen morons try to claim that Cleopatra (queen of Egypt in the first century BC) was African-American. Cleopatra was of Macedonian Greek lineage, not sub-Saharan African. Not to mention that America did not exist in the first century BC.
I've encountered that, too, and said much the same thing. Historical revisionism is getting totally out of control. And when you bring facts in, you're called all manner of names. Sigh.
Still fondly recalling my South African (Afrikaaner) friend arguing with the admissions counselor at a certain Midwestern uni that he was 'African-American' and had the passport to prove it. She was beside herself in trying to explain why he wasn't 'African'. His response to EVERY objection, was 'but I am from Africa'. :-)
Still fondly recalling my South African (Afrikaaner) friend arguing with the admissions counselor at a certain Midwestern uni that he was 'African-American' and had the passport to prove it. She was beside herself in trying to explain why he wasn't 'African'. His response to EVERY objection, was 'but I am from Africa'. :-)
Is your friend's name Elon Musk by any chance?
Is your friend's name Elon Musk by any chance?
LOL. I wish, but the event I described was in 1983 in Illinois.
And when you bring facts in, you're called all manner of names. Sigh.
Let me guess: old white man?
That would be highly dependent on the setting and time frame.
And this is very much true.
I have written quite a few period pieces, and as such have specifically used words that many would find objectionable today. However, they were the ones commonly used in the time that the story is set.
In one, a black female in the 1940s referred to herself as "Colored", as that was the common term of the era. And in an earlier one set in the 1920s a character referred to a jazz band as a "Spook Quintet". Once again, capturing the era by using a very out of date phrase.
When describing characters, how do you handle race?
When I saw the topic on the forum, I thought it was about Alien Races that often occur in science fiction, and/or fantasy stories. There, I tend to use those particular peoples' term for Human Being. As in Deutsch (German), but also Souix, Greek, and Chinese, to mention a few who refer to themselves as Humans, and all else as animals or at least "non-humans"...
Denoting skin color, I use a modified form of the Chicago Style Guide: Black, Asian, Latino, White, Egyptian, Persian, and a few others that don't fit "neatly" into a skin color definition.
Since most of my stories are in a military setting, in modern times there are Official Standards, and often consequences for failing to adhere to those standards. Rarely, if it is a plot point, some characters may use racial slang; sometimes that is derogatory. Negro is still the official US government definition of many people with Black or brown skin tones; I sometimes use that, if a character is being described and that makes sense in context. In some of my stories the skin color of individuals matters when they are deployed to foreign lands, and if they "blend in" or don't.
I have a story set before and during the Second World War, and I occasionally use Colored that was used then. As in the NAACP (National Association of Colored People). It was both a government term, and self-identification. So, I use that in context of the times. Some units of the US Army were so Identified: 555th Parachute Infantry Battalion (Colored) or the 41st Regiment of Infantry (Philippine Scouts).
In the WWII story the racial slurs used are "Square Head" (Germans and Scandinavians), Krauts (Germans), Wop (Italian), Mick (Irish, and sometimes Scottish), among others, and after 7 December 1941 Japs.
Negro
I am not certain why people whose knees are growing are darker colored than other people. With the possible exception of Albinos, every person has some color or other, pink for example if they don't spend time in the sun. White is certainly a color, although not many people display that color.
White is certainly a color, although not many people display that color.
A Writers' Group friend says that you can always tell an English man because their legs are so white. ;-)
AJ
or WOMAN!!!
Think of Loretta and write that a hundred times!
She, not being a native Brit, was adamant it applied to English men because they always keep their legs covered up.
AJ
If Englishmen always keep their legs covered up how does Loretta, whoever she is, recognise an English man by his white legs other than when he is playing cricket?
Jack G
If Englishmen always keep their legs covered up how does Loretta, whoever she is, recognise an English man by his white legs other than when he is playing cricket?
I have no idea who Loretta is. @Argon?
The Writers' Group was like fish in a barrel because all the English men present were getting on in age and not the type to sunbathe (which is nuts, considering the epidemic of vitamin D deficiency amongst the elderly).
AJ
I have no idea who Loretta is. @Argon?
Monty Python's The Life of Brian, People's Front of Judaea meeting at Circus. . PFJ member Stan decides to be Loretta and enforces gender equality in AD 33, Roman-occupied Judaea.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dgp9MPLEAqA
Jeez! I have to explain that to a Brit?? Did you grow up in Wales where the movie was banned? 😂
Jeez! I have to explain that to a Brit??
It's a very long time since I watched the film. I'm afraid I don't remember that scene.
I guess I'd fail a test for Britishness :-(
AJ
I have been watching it every Good Friday for the past 35 years😉
Always look at the bright side of life!
Played by Eric Idle… Loved growing up and watching Monty Python on PBS in the States…
My sister and I could probably recite the whole dialogue for The Holy Grail and the TV show's parrot sketch...
Comedian George Carlin has a skit about why he doesn't like using African American.
Just search YouTube :
George Carlin on African American
Pocono 500, Daytona 500, Indy 500...
Mixing and matching IndyCar and NASCAR. What's next? Human sacrifice, dogs and cats living together? Mass hysteria!
Haven't you heard of mixed races? 😁
Can you imagine IndyCars and NASCARs on the same track at the same time? Talk about mayhem!
Can you imagine IndyCars and NASCARs on the same track at the same time? Talk about mayhem!
While they never raced against each other in 2022 and 2023 at Indianapolis Motor Speedway both series raced on the same track in the same week. The week leading up to their actual race both cars where at times sharing the track as they did testing and practice but they did keep the cars running on the track separated.
A bit off topic and late to the party, but I thought I would share with the group. My wife is Korean, and for a long time I would refer to her and her friends as Oriental. One day, my twelve-year-old son pointed out the error of my ways. As he told me, "Carpets are Oriental, people are Asian." I never made that mistake again.
Couple points for the liberal wokies ….
1) Elon Musk is an "African American"
2) I been an INDIAN for 59 years, so you can stick your "Native American" slurs as well.
1) Elon Musk is an "African American"
African American is a wokelish term conflating black Africans with black Americans. If you use it for a white African, snowflakes will feel really really literally physically sick.
AJ