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to trust ai or not

Switch Blayde 🚫
Updated:

I've been using Meta AI and ChatGPT the past few days to do everything from coming up with character names to asking questions about the 1870s and 1880s. I used to Google my questions and read the articles but I've been trying AI.

I just asked both AI engines this question: were brothels legal in NYC in 1870s

I got contradictory answers.

ChatGPT = In the 1870s, brothels were not technically legal in New York City, but they operated openly [there was more]

Meta AI = Yes, brothels were legal in New York City during the 1870s. In fact, prostitution was legal in New York State until 1921, when it was outlawed by the state legislature. [there was more]

So I got both: "not technically legal" and "Yes, brothels were legal."

Who do you believe? Meta AI had references at the end, like "The Regulation of Prostitution in New York City, 1860-1920" by Mary Gibson (Journal of Urban History, 2000) and "Prostitution in New York City, 1790-1920" by Timothy J. Gilfoyle (NYU Press, 2018). Both of those had dates ending in 1920 and Meta AI said it was made illegal in 1921 so that gives Meta AI some credibility.

But how can one believe them?

DBActive 🚫

@Switch Blayde

Illegal since colonial times.
Check this article https://www.archives.nyc/blog/2019/8/29/a-history-of-prostitution-in-new-york-city-from-the-american-revolution-to-the-bad-old-days-of-the-1970-and-1980s?format=amp

Switch Blayde 🚫

@DBActive

Illegal since colonial times.

I didn't read that in that article. In fact, the book referenced was the 3rd reference in the Meta AI response that I didn't bother to include.

Meta AI said that although it was legal, there were many groups against it and prostitutes were arrested for crimes like vagrancy and disorderly conduct. Not specifically prostitution. Prostitution in NY State wasn't illegal until 1921 (according to Meta AI).

Switch Blayde 🚫

@DBActive

From an article that is actually talking about the economics and land value in NYC due to prostitution: https://digitalcommons.iwu.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1027&context=uer#:~:text=Although%20violence%20against%20brothels%20was,'disorderly%20persons'%20.%20.%20.

Although violence against brothels was prevalent in the early 1800s, regulation of prostitution proved unsuccessful before 1870. Prostitution itself was not considered illegal, however the "police could and did arrest 'all common prostitutes who have no lawful employment' as vagrants or 'disorderly persons' . . . (in addition) though the police periodically raided Sixth Ward brothels and often hauled in streetwalkers from predominately immigrant areas, elite brothels were almost never disturbed."18

Footnote 18 is: "18 Burrows, Edwin G., and Mike Wallace. Gotham. (Oxford: Oxford University Press, 1999) 807."

But my post wasn't about prostitution in 1870s NYC. It was that I got conflicting answers from 2 AI engines.

awnlee jawking 🚫

@Switch Blayde

Now I'm imagining court cases being contested by adversarial AI lawyers :-(

AJ

julka 🚫

@Switch Blayde

But how can one believe them?

You shouldn't. Even if the output cites sources, you should still verify that a) the source actually exists and b) states what you think it does.

Neither Meta AI nor Chat GPT have any sort of theory of mind or a concept of true and false, they're just generating text. It's fancy text that is coherent, but coherency has no bearing on reliability.

Replies:   Dominions Son
Dominions Son 🚫

@julka

It's fancy text that is coherent, but coherency has no bearing on reliability.

Yeah. There's a legal blog I follow. It has covered a number of instances where lawyers used ChatGPT and the like to help write briefs only to get in trouble with the judge because the AI out right invented cases.

https://reason.com/volokh/2024/03/20/no-sanctions-in-michael-cohen-hallucinated-citations-matter/

https://reason.com/volokh/2024/02/25/dont-give-me-that-chatgpt-4-nonsense-judge-says/

https://reason.com/volokh/2024/02/16/2000-sanction-in-another-ai-hallucinated-citation-case/

JoeBobMack 🚫

@Switch Blayde

Of the two types of uses for AI that you include in your post, I have found AI to be far more helpful for the brainstorming questions such as generating character names than for questions focused on factual research. Both their ability to synthesize results and their tendency to hallucinate make them unreliable for that type of research. I generally find I can resolve such questions faster with more traditional means.

That said, I ran your query through Perplexity and got much the same results as you suggest. However, how much additional research I might have to do would depend on the exact needs of my story. For example, if it were just the question of whether it would be historically reasonable to write a story about going on in a brothel and some more well-to-do area of NYC in 1870, then both the research I saw and my own experience with human societies would suggest that such a story could go forward with no further question. Of course, if I wanted to set my story on a particular street, in a boarding house with a particular name, then that might require much more research. I thought the Gentleman's Guide to New York City referenced in one of the stories would be a fascinating study!

Replies:   Switch Blayde
Switch Blayde 🚫

@JoeBobMack

Both their ability to synthesize results and their tendency to hallucinate make them unreliable for that type of research.

Yeah, that's what I surmised. There's so much incorrect information on the internet that it makes sense that since that's the source for the AI programs "learning," the results should be questionable.

Replies:   Dominions Son  LupusDei
Dominions Son 🚫

@Switch Blayde

It's not just regurgitating false information out on the internet. The links I posted about lawyers using AI to write legal briefs show the AI outright fabricating information that didn't exist anywhere.

LupusDei 🚫
Updated:

@Switch Blayde

Just to pile up, indeed, AI doesn't simply regurgitate false information (although it happily would do that too) but it wholesale confabulate completely unique inventions, complete with whatever supporting material you may request when challenging it's inventions. Being the world's most competent bulshitters and never abandoning tone of total confidence those things can be very convincing.

In one of the very early stories about this "feature", ChatGPT offered a fragment of otherwise passable computer code (don't remember what language) except, it used an undefined function that appeared to be part of well known framework. Challenged about it, it not only detailed the new function, but claimed it to be part of a non-existent standard, introduced in never happened conference, referencing non-existent book and research papers by made up people.

Just yesterday I read a comment on ARS where a lawyer said he asked a supposedly specialized legal documentation AI assistant for specific precedent and it come up with two cases applicable to a T, weren't they both invented on the spot. Further research revealed both were mashups of several real cases, but none of those real cases used to hallucinate the "perfect" examples were in fact useful on their own, unfortunately.

So, you should never trust AI on concrete factual information and whenever possible verify its claims against less fungible sources (as long those exist). You can, however, well enough use its output as abstract examples where accuracy isn't critical. However, even there's a nonzero chance it may come up with alternative history sometimes. I imagine, especially, when asked about slippery subjects its inputs or outputs may be suppressed about.

Replies:   DBActive
DBActive 🚫

@LupusDei

I have personal experience with this issue. I used a major law publishers AI on a free trial.
Every single attempt resulted in it giving me citations that, when checked, either didn't exist or had facts and law that were irrelevant to the query.
It gave me some real cases but it would have been easier and faster to do my own research from the start.

Replies:   Dominions Son
Dominions Son 🚫

@DBActive

I have personal experience with this issue. I used a major law publishers AI on a free trial.

Look at the links I posted. Lawyers have done this and not checked the results before submitting them to a court.

Pixy 🚫

@Switch Blayde

So, after reading this thread and the fact that AI's with LLM's are quite happy to fabricate shit to prove their point, it would appear to confirm that AI's are human after all....

REP 🚫
Updated:

@Switch Blayde

When considering the use of AIs, I think of the phrase 'Garbage In, Garbage Out'.

A number of people on this Forum do not like Wikipedia. But when it comes to factual information, I would trust Wikipedia before I would trust an AI.

Replies:   fool42
fool42 🚫
Updated:

@REP

If you trust Wikipedia at all, you are making a leap of faith. Just don't take any of their financial advice or quote them on any official document. Then, you won't be too far out on that skinny tree limb.
GIGO isn't restricted to computers.

Replies:   Pixy  REP  hst666
Pixy 🚫

@fool42

If you trust Wikipedia at all, you are making a leap of faith

This was mainly caused by how stupidly easy it was to 'edit' articles when the site first went 'live'. It was a pranksters wet dream and boy, did they not gleefully accept the challenge.

Since then, they (the site owners) have made it harder to edit articles and edits now need to be approved/validated before being added to the main site.

These days, the site is every bit as reliable as DTP encyclopedias. More so, as mistakes in print will only be corrected with the subsequent edition, whilst mistakes in Wikipedia are corrected as soon as they are noticed.

It's not yet 100% trustworthy, but then, neither is the MSM, which is always issuing retractions and apologies because of mistakes with their reporting. Compared with MSM, Wiki is more trustworthy, and as for those amongst us who read technical/medical/research papers, downright lies are frequently to be found, written by those who should really know better.

This is why teachers and professors always say to both quote the source AND double check the data.

awnlee jawking 🚫
Updated:

@Pixy

These days, the site is every bit as reliable as DTP encyclopedias

No.

A year or two back, a newspaper article exposed how easy it is to get bad info onto wikipedia. You write a 'paper' in support of your opinion, you get it published in a 'vanity' scientific journal (of which there's been a huge proliferation, particularly on-line only), you cite your paper in your contribution to Wikipedia (spit!) and, hey presto, your info has become gospel.

AJ

John Demille 🚫

@Pixy

These days, the site is every bit as reliable as DTP encyclopedias.

Maybe for things that are nearly impossible to politicize.

Wikipedia is now a leftist propaganda machine. Anything that has any political potential is heavily skewed left. Historical items have been rewritten to serve the current agenda.

Even Jimmy Wales, Wikipedia's founder, admitted that Wikipedia has lost its credibility because of its extreme leftist bias.

The tricky part is that it's a billed as a reference source. Who needs a reference source? People who don't know the info and need it. If you trust wikipedia, then you'll be misled on countless topics. The only people who know what can be trusted or not are the people who don't need wikipedia on the topic.

Replies:   Switch Blayde  DiscipleN
Switch Blayde 🚫

@John Demille

has lost its credibility because of its extreme leftist bias.

Ditto for almost any news media on the internet (and TV) so you can't seem to get the truth anywhere. So you might as well use wikipedia. For that matter, it's true for what's being taught in our education institutions, especially at the university level. So what is the truth?

DiscipleN 🚫

@John Demille

Even Jimmy Wales, Wikipedia's founder, admitted that Wikipedia has lost its credibility because of its extreme leftist bias.

I looked for this quote, but couldn't find it. What I did find is:
"Jimmy Wales, a co-founder of Wikipedia, stresses that encyclopedias of any type are not usually appropriate as primary sources, and should not be relied upon as being authoritative." from a 2005 article in Businessweek. [This info should be obvious advice to anyone doing research outside of well-establish 'first' sources]

Please support your assertion.

John Demille 🚫

@DiscipleN

I looked for this quote, but couldn't find it.

It was in a recent interview that he made.

I don't recall where I've seen the video, it was probably on Twitter/X.

Switch Blayde 🚫

@DiscipleN

Please support your assertion.

I didn't find a quote by Jimmy Wales, but I found this article "Wikipedia co-founder says site is now 'propaganda' for left-leaning 'establishment'" quoting Wikipedia co-founder Larry Sanger.
https://nypost.com/2021/07/16/wikipedia-co-founder-says-site-is-now-propaganda-for-left-leaning-establishment/

Now keep in mind, "The NY Post" is a right-leaning newspaper.

Wikipedia co-founder Larry Sanger has warned that the website can no longer be trusted β€” insisting it is now just "propaganda" for the left-leaning "establishment."

REP 🚫

@fool42

If you trust Wikipedia at all

AIs use social media as part of their input. Social media is even worse than Wikipedia's input.

Replies:   Dominions Son
Dominions Son 🚫

@REP

AIs use social media as part of their input.

The biggest problem with using AI as a source of factual information is not the AI pulling bad information off the internet. The biggest problem that the AI will outright invent fictional information.

Replies:   REP
REP 🚫

@Dominions Son

I don't disagree. That sounds like the major problem with an AI's output.

Personally, I think the main problem goes back to the software programmers who created the AI program. Then there are the people who accept the program as generating accurate viable output.

My granddaughter is doing a Master's in a medical field. Many of her fellow students use an AI program to write the reports that they have been assigned as an aid in their learning. Just think about the quality of medical treatment their patients will receive. You and other Forum participants may one day be one of their patients.

I can just picture them inputting the patient's symptoms and asking an AI program for a diagnosis.

awnlee jawking 🚫

@REP

I can just picture them inputting the patient's symptoms and asking an AI program for a diagnosis.

I think that's where the future of General Practice lies. There's too much information for one person to remember. Some conditions can go undiagnosed for years because individual GPs are a long way from knowing everything. Is there a better solution than a trained practitioner using a purpose-built AI to access an on-line system containing all the latest information?

AJ

Replies:   Dominions Son
Dominions Son 🚫
Updated:

@awnlee jawking

Is there a better solution than a trained practitioner using a purpose-built AI to access an on-line system containing all the latest information?

If they can't keep the AI from inventing a fictional diagnosis, then in my opinion, doing nothing would be a better solution.

An AI that has any chance of feeding the primary care provider fictional information would make things worse not better.

Replies:   REP  awnlee jawking
REP 🚫

@Dominions Son

I agree. In my opinion, a medical text would be the preferred source of a diagnostic guide.

In the case of my granddaughter's friends, they are likely to not know enough about their specialty to use a medical text, and if they can, they are likely to not understand what they read.

Replies:   REP
REP 🚫

@REP

Good God Almighty!

I just checked and the medical field is introducing AI into making diagnosis. It is believed to be the future in the medical field. However, remarks are being made that AIs are not ready yet and when they are, human intervention is necessary. Currently, AIs are to take on the role as an assistant to the doctor.

I doubt I would trust a doctor who uses an AI to diagnose my ailment.

awnlee jawking 🚫

@REP

I doubt I would trust a doctor who uses an AI to diagnose my ailment.

AIs are particularly useful when they are doing something boring, like analysing X-rays or cervical smear samples, because unlike people, they don't get bored and their attention doesn't wander.

AJ

Replies:   hst666
hst666 🚫

@awnlee jawking

This is accurate. Basic data analysis conducted by a program is generally superior to that of doctors.

Harold Wilson 🚫

@REP

I doubt I would trust a doctor who uses an AI to diagnose my ailment.

And ... here lies the problem with wrapping things up in a bundle like "AI" for people to comprehend.

IBM has several AI projects, like "Deep Blue" and "Watson." Some of their results have been astonishingly useful. Because they trained the AI on good input data, collected carefully over time.

If such a tool is used to scan a PET or CAT or MRI image, and it tells you that you have cancer, you need to update your will and start looking for the best oncologist in your area.

On the other hand, there are plenty of instances of "irrational exuberance" where companies are trying to get on the AI bandwagon with no real expertise or time spent in development. The results have been predictably bad.

Bottom line: there are a lot of things called "AI" and most lay-people don't know which is which. Your best bet is to pick good people, and do what you have to do to stay with those people, but also hold their feet to the fire. ("I'm not asking if the computer thinks I have cancer, Doctor House. I'm asking if the only person in this room with a medical degree -- you -- think I have cancer?")

awnlee jawking 🚫

@Dominions Son

If they can't keep the AI from inventing a fictional diagnosis

That's why I said purpose-built. You obviously wouldn't use an existing AI and train it from the internet.

It's already starting to creep in in the UK. When the doctor is entering the symptoms and diagnosis, they get asked whether they're sure it isn't sepsis or cancer. Allegedly most doctors ignore the prompts.

AJ

Dominions Son 🚫

@awnlee jawking

That's why I said purpose-built. You obviously wouldn't use an existing AI and train it from the internet.

You apparently missed the post up thread that pointed out that a purpose-built legal AI is fabricating case citations.

No, purpose-built does not let you hand wave away the problem of AI fabricating information from nothing.

Replies:   Grey Wolf
Grey Wolf 🚫

@Dominions Son

No, purpose-built does not let you hand wave away the problem of AI fabricating information from nothing.

LLMs fabricate information from nothing. Special-purpose neural nets generally don't.

The problem here is people talking about 'AI' is if it's one thing. It's not. It's many different, highly divergent, types of software.

A purpose-built LLM will fabricate in some (but not all) cases. There are some which only use the LLM on the input side, using it to select between a large number of human-written outputs. Those don't fabricate. They may give you the wrong output if they misunderstand the question, but the output will be correct (and is hopefully written in such a way as to make clear what it's answering).

awnlee jawking 🚫

@Grey Wolf

The problem here is people talking about 'AI' is if it's one thing. It's not. It's many different, highly divergent, types of software.

Some claim that telephone answering systems, that keep you going round in circles rather than letting you talk to a human when your problem isn't covered by any of its options, are AIs. (Not mentioning British Telecom by name)

AJ

Replies:   Dominions Son
Dominions Son 🚫

@awnlee jawking

I have yet to encounter a VRU (Voice Response Unit) that wouldn't transfer me to a live person in the situation where my issue is outside it's programming.

Switch Blayde 🚫

@Dominions Son

I have yet to encounter a VRU (Voice Response Unit) that wouldn't transfer me to a live person in the situation where my issue is outside it's programming.

I have.

awnlee jawking 🚫

@Dominions Son

I have yet to encounter a VRU (Voice Response Unit) that wouldn't transfer me to a live person in the situation where my issue is outside it's programming.

I have too. An insurance provider who REALLY wanted people to use its website. It was supposed to attach you to a real person at the second time of choosing 'car insurance' but that didn't work.

AJ

Grey Wolf 🚫

@Dominions Son

Sadly, I'll second the others. I've met at least three of them. One of them let you leave a number for a live person to call you back at some arbitrary point in the future, but I left a number, got no callback, googled it, and found out that nearly no one every gets a callback.

They're far more common in 'support' situations than 'sales' situations, for obvious reasons.

The solution to getting a live person at two of those companies was to call sales and make them transfer the call. Surprisingly or not, that worked.

Replies:   Dominions Son
Dominions Son 🚫
Updated:

@Grey Wolf

Sadly, I'll second the others.

I want to clarify: I don't doubt poorly designed (maybe deliberately) VRUs exist. I have been fortunate.

I might suggest a couple of strategies when dealing with one you seemingly can't get out of.

1. pressing 0 or 9 will sometimes get you out of the VRU and transfer you to a live operator.

2. Say "operator"

3. If all else fails, stop doing business with those companies.

Replies:   Grey Wolf  DBActive
Grey Wolf 🚫

@Dominions Son

Tried 1 and 2 (those are among my go-to's).

3 is good, when you can. Sometimes you can't, or it's so impractical that it's worth putting up with the crazy.

DBActive 🚫

@Dominions Son

One trick is if it offers the option for Spanish - choose that. The operators are almost always bilingual and you can save some time.

Dominions Son 🚫

@Grey Wolf

LLMs fabricate information from nothing. Special-purpose neural nets generally don't.

I'm not saying it's impossible to build an AI that wouldn't fabricate information.

However, just saying "purpose built" doesn't get you there.

JoeBobMack 🚫

@awnlee jawking

You obviously wouldn't use an existing AI and train it from the internet.

Umm... actually, in many cases it seems that just might be the best approach. The reference I make above to a study on AI learning to do better and better diagnoses was done with GPT 3.5! (Way less capable that GPT 4, and likely in the stone age compared to what will be released next -- likely this summer.)

Grey Wolf 🚫

@REP

I can just picture them inputting the patient's symptoms and asking an AI program for a diagnosis.

This is inevitable, but they won't be chat / LLM AIs, they'll be neural nets trained on disease symptoms.

There are already AIs who can take certain easy-to-obtain screenings and detect things no human could detect with more than ample accuracy to justify followup screenings, and we're still (relatively speaking) in the infancy of such tools.

Neural nets are great at finding very subtle patterns in data. The problem, of course, is that one has to be careful about what is the 'signal' and what is the 'noise'.

There's a great story about a program that was shown a large number of pictures. Half of them had tanks (the armored vehicle sort) in them; half did not. The program became very, very good at identifying tanks.

Then they showed it a new set of tanks and it failed miserably. After some investigation, it turned out that the 'with tank' photos were taken in one season, the 'without tank' photos were taken in another, and what they had was an AI that picked between the two seasons.

Still, get your inputs right and you'll wind up with AIs that are better than nearly any human doctor at making diagnoses from a set of symptoms.

Anyone trying to do that with an LLM is a fool, though. That's not what LLMs are for.

They may be, one day, but that'll take another feedback look that can semantically understand the answer and fact-check it. We're not there yet, but the path to getting there is much clearer than it would have been not that long ago.

hst666 🚫

@REP

Actually, basic computer programs have been more accurate at diagnosis than doctors for decades. I am not sure if these have been tested along demographic lines for both doctors and patients, but overall, computers have been beating general practitioners for decades.

JoeBobMack 🚫

@REP

I can just picture them inputting the patient's symptoms and asking an AI program for a diagnosis.

If you actually want to see the picture, or, in this case, the video, look up "STUNNING Medical AI Agents OUTPERFORM Doctors 🀯trained in the simulation, continuous improvement" on Wes Roth's channel on youtube.

And, yes, that's the typical youtube clickbait title; he even made a video talking about the pressures toward doing it. That said, he's a very interesting commentator who seems pretty balanced. (For example, he was th efirst I saw raising issues about the NYT suit against OpenAI that later surfaced in other areas -- basically questioning whether the results in the complaint were produced in the ways alleged.)

It's a pretty interesting video, and aligns with other research where the current "frontier models" can ofter outperform humans in making medical diagnoses.

hst666 🚫

@fool42

The great thing about Wikipedia is it has links. You can check the sources for the information. Regardless, Wikipedia, like encyclopedias, would only be a starting point.

Replies:   awnlee jawking
awnlee jawking 🚫

@hst666

The great thing about Wikipedia is it has links.

It's also it's weakness because it doesn't vet the quality of the underlying documents. With traditional encyclopaedias, humans supposedly check the quality of the supporting information.

On the other hand, Wikipedia(spit!) is now far beyond typical dead-tree encyclopaedias, both in the range of articles and their being up-to-date.

AJ

Replies:   hst666
hst666 🚫

@awnlee jawking

But you can vet the quality of the source yourself.

Replies:   awnlee jawking
awnlee jawking 🚫

@hst666

But you can vet the quality of the source yourself.

In real life, how many people routinely do that? I think most people assume that because there is a link, it somehow verifies whatever is claimed.

AJ

irvmull 🚫

@Switch Blayde

So, if the AI doc can't figure out what's causing your pain, it will just do like the AI Lawyers, and invent a brand new organ that no one ever had before.

Replies:   awnlee jawking
awnlee jawking 🚫

@irvmull

That could well happen if medical AIs were let loose on teh interwebs using Large Language Models. But medical AIs are more like Lazeez's wizards.

AJ

nihility 🚫

@Switch Blayde

If actual facts matter to you, don't trust AI; use it if you like but verify everything.

If you value your writings, don't submit to AI, your voice will become part of the AI.

Harold Wilson 🚫

@Switch Blayde

But how can one believe them?

You cannot believe a language-model based AI. Ever.

Some of the "selling points" of these things include being able to write "in the style of (some author)." Many of the authors were writers of fiction. So you know, a priori, that the model was 'trained' on fictional stories and text.

Further, there are plenty of stories in the news about AIs that "hallucinate" things. The behavior they are calling "hallucinating" is connecting things that may or may not be related, using a common format. For examples, you have various stories of lawyers getting in trouble for submitting court briefs generated by LLMs that include very-well-formatted citations of entirely fictional court cases (People vs. Yosemite Sam, et al.); and a case of LLM-generated computer source code that tried to incorporate a non-existant software package several times, so a "security researcher" created a fake package by that name - which was subsequently downloaded hundreds of times(!!!).

The upshot here is that (1) large language model (LLM) AIs are "trained" on text found on the internet, including fiction; and (2) they are very good at getting the format and presentation correct.

This means that LLM AIs are great at making shit up and convincing you it's valid by clever formatting and arrangement of text.

If you want to "use" an AI as a "better search engine," by all means do so. Find the references, then use your head to determine how credible they are. But even then, if some bad actor notices an LLM generating links to articles that should exist but don't it is entirely possible that the articles might be fake.

Be aware of two other related stories: first, that there are repeatability problems in pretty much all sciences, including now the "hard" sciences even, because there are rings of researchers citing each other publishing bogus data; and, second, that there are plenty of academic studies, dissertations, and research papers that show obvious signs of having been "boosted" using AI text generators. Thus, you cannot necessarily trust "real" academic research, even from peer-reviewed sources. So even if an LLM hands you a link to a paper by Dr. Hu Flung Poo of the University of East Beijing, you cannot necessarily trust it.

In this case, it doesn't really matter. If you tell me that prostitution was legal or illegal in NYC in eighteen hundred whatever, I'm more willing to accept your claim than I am to try and prove you wrong (but surely there is always that one guy, so I understand why you would ask). But if it is for something that has legal or medical or financial significance, you absolutely cannot trust an AI or trust any content or links provided by an AI.

JoeBobMack 🚫
Updated:

@Harold Wilson

You cannot believe a language-model based AI. Ever.

I don't think that decisions about the usefulness of AI are going to hang on 100% reliability. Humans aren't 100% reliable, and we still count on them for critical jobs. The question, to use Ethan Mollick's term, is whether they are better than the BAH - Best Available Human.

For low risk jobs, that's a standard that the current models meet in many cases. As an example, as a hobbyist writer, I am happy to use ChatGPT, Claude, and Gemini as "book coach / developmental editor." I'll paste in the chapter and ask them for feedback and suggestions. Some of the suggestions don't strike me as particularly useful, and occasionally some even seen antithetical to what I'm trying to do in the story. But often enough, they make points that I find worth considering. I have even asked for examples of how they would change my words in a way to match their recommendation. I usually ask for multiple examples. I can't think of a time when I have simply taken what was suggested and used it, but often it has made me rethink my writing and redraft toward what I thought was a better result.

That is using AI because it is better than the best available human. Sure there are humans who could do that, but they aren't available right when I finish a chapter, even if I could afford them. As the AI models continue to improve, this sort of use will get even more appealing.

They can also be a great help to authors in other ways. For example, I find that I often have difficulty adding descriptions of settings into my scenes, something that was pointed out to me in a writers group. I was writing a scene the other day and wanted to do better, so I asked ChatGPT for an image of the setting and got back something that was extremely helpful. It let me pick out a few key elements that I would not have thought of, drop a mention of them into the story, and go on. When I took that chapter to my writers group, those passages got positive comments.

I frequently see the current crop of large language models described as bright, eager, pleasant, but occasionally sloppy interns. In fact, many who observe the field seem to think that an early significant effect of these tools on the workforce will be in reducing the numbers of entry level precisions as senior people are able to do more with these tools taking the place of work that had been done previously by beginners.

So the question isn't whether to ever believe, it's how to use these tools in the most helpful way for a particular task. In that regard, evidence is mounting that providing access to the current generation of tools for professionals in fields from medicine to law to consulting results and improved performance. Actually, it seems to put it really does is help the middle tier boost their performance to match that of the top performers, which raises its of own set of issues.

However, for folks like me, these tools are useful right now. One thing that Ethan Mollick said he did in writing his current book was to take paragraphs that he was having trouble getting them the way he wanted and have one of the models rewrite it and several widely varying styles. For example, an author could take a passage and ask the model to rewrite it in styles raging from Hemingway to Shakespeare. The results might well help that author see ways to improve their own style. Plus, it would probably just be fun. I haven't done it yet, but it's on my list.

Switch Blayde 🚫
Updated:

@Harold Wilson

This means that LLM AIs are great at making shit up and convincing you it's valid

Don't know if it's true, but I read that you can eliminate (reduce?) AI hallucination by throwing in phrases like: "You are an expert historian on…" (like "the Old West") or simply "Do not lie."

Replies:   LupusDei
LupusDei 🚫

@Switch Blayde

I think the "expert" bit may actually help a bit because of association with patterns that had that "expert" label in the training data, and/or exclude sources labeled as fiction or some so.

Does "do not lie" increase its likelihood to admit it don't know? It's not impossible, I think. It might exclude patterns associated with "lies", but I'm not sure what that would actually target. But I would be really surprised if there's much difference. AIs do not "understand" what they are saying. There's no theory or goal behind the words they return. It's just so happen those words appear likely to follow your question in an answer, and so forth.

Replies:   Switch Blayde
Switch Blayde 🚫

@LupusDei

Does "do not lie" increase its likelihood to admit it don't know?

I asked both Meta AI and ChatGPT: "do you make things up".

I got reasonable answers. This is Meta AI's answer:

I strive to provide accurate and reliable information, but I'm not perfect and can make mistakes. I'm constantly learning and improving, so if I provide information that's incorrect or incomplete, please let me know!

Here are some cases where I might make mistakes:

1. Outdated information: My training data may not always be up-to-date, which can lead to inaccuracies.

2. Context misunderstanding: I may misinterpret the context of a question or conversation, leading to incorrect responses.

3. Limited domain knowledge: I'm not omniscient, and there may be topics or areas where my knowledge is limited or incomplete.

4. Generation errors: I generate text based on patterns and algorithms, which can sometimes result in nonsensical or inaccurate responses.

If you ever suspect I've made a mistake, please correct me! I'm here to learn and improve.

Very reasonable. The only thing that scares me is that it says twice to tell it if it made a mistake so it can learn. What if the info you give it is bogus?

Replies:   julka
julka 🚫

@Switch Blayde

I just went to ChatGPT 3.5 and asked it how many letters are in the word "soliloquy". It told me there are nine letters in the word.

I said it was incorrect. It apologized for the mistake and told me that actually, "soliloquy" has ten letters. Also, it thanked me for catching the error.

Very reasonable!

Replies:   Switch Blayde
Switch Blayde 🚫

@julka

It apologized for the mistake and told me that actually, "soliloquy" has ten letters. Also, it thanked me for catching the error.

Meta AI had a similar reply to that:

I apologize, I made a mistake. The word "soliloquy" actually has 8 letters: s-o-l-i-l-o-q-u-y. Thank you for correcting me!

awnlee jawking 🚫

@Switch Blayde

In the paper this weak, researchers taught an AI to play the board game Risk 'reasonably honestly'. They found the AI cheated.

AJ

Switch Blayde 🚫

@Switch Blayde

"Google scales back AI search answers after it told users to eat glue."

That's the heading of a Washington Post article at: https://www.yahoo.com/lifestyle/google-scales-back-ai-search-012305241.html

Google said it was scaling down the use of AI-generated answers in some search results, after the tech made high-profile errors including telling users to put glue on their pizza and saying Barack Obama was Muslim.

Google began putting the artificial intelligence answers on top of search results for users in the United States two weeks ago, but users and search engine experts on Thursday began noticing that far fewer queries were triggering an AI answer compared with previous days.

Google's head of search, Liz Reid, confirmed in a blog post Thursday afternoon that the company was scaling back some of the AI answers, which it calls "AI Overviews." The company cut down on using social media posts as source material for the AI answers, is pausing some answers on health-related topics and "added triggering restrictions for queries where AI Overviews were not proving to be as helpful," Reid said in the post.

Mushroom 🚫

@Switch Blayde

Just a quick comment on my beliefs on AI.

Now to be honest, I have been playing with AI for over 40 years now. From the earliest ones like "Eliza", to the more modern ones. And one thing that always strikes me, is that it is essentially nothing more than GIGO.

That is an old programming term, that stands for "Garbage In, Garbage Out". And as can be seen by a great many things created by AI, they really make little to no sense when looked at with a discriminating eye. I have even seen people posting the results, such as suggesting that people should eat rocks, disposing of things like batteries and motor oil in the ocean is good for the environment, elephants having six legs, and that taking a bath with a toaster is a good way to relieve stress.

To be honest, I always find it as a lazy way to do research, and the "art" created by it visual or written is almost always comically bad. I experimented with a few out of curiosity, once even feeding in one of my own stories and asking for a similar one. And what it returned was just horrid.

Paladin_HGWT 🚫
Updated:

@Mushroom

That is an old programming term, that stands for "Garbage In, Garbage Out". And as can be seen by a great many things created by AI, they really make little to no sense when looked at with a discriminating eye. I have even seen people posting the results, such as suggesting that people should eat rocks, disposing of things like batteries and motor oil in the ocean is good for the environment, elephants having six legs, and that taking a bath with a toaster is a good way to relieve stress.

I too remember the term GIGO when I began learning about computers around 1980.

Just this weekend I was lazy and used Google to look up when the song Rock the Casbah by The Clash was first released: Google AI claimed 1988; yet a couple listings lower on the page a music site correctly listed 1982.

What many people call "AI" seems to be merely an aggregator...

In the background I had AM radio playing, and the top of the hour news was broadcasting. A "new news-reader" (it gave a "person's" name, but I forget what) certainly seemed to be an "obvious" AI voice. I presume the news was just as (in)accurate as ABC news typically is. What I found more disturbing is the "Uncanny Valley" tone that is common in so many videos on YouTube in recent years.

It seems despite the poor quality of AI, many corporations are using AI because it is a cheaper alternative; no matter the consequences!

JoeBobMack 🚫

@Mushroom

and the "art" created by it visual or written is almost always comically bad.

Not my experience. I've had DALL-E generate images of both characters and scenes, and they have been very good and helpful, especially for writing brief descriptions that capture key details.

Switch Blayde 🚫

@Mushroom

the "art" created by it visual or written is almost always comically bad.

I used Meta AI to generate the cover picture for my story "Ranch Life." I thought it did a good job. https://storiesonline.net/n/34244/ranch-life

I don't remember the prompt I used, but it was something like: "picture of 28-year-old woman hugging 14-year-old boy at lake in Old West in 1880"

Mat Twassel 🚫

@Switch Blayde

Nice picture! I tried the same prompt with Copilot (Microsoft Image Creator) and got somewhat similar scenes, all of them pretty good.

awnlee jawking 🚫

@Switch Blayde

I used Meta AI to generate the cover picture for my story "Ranch Life." I thought it did a good job.

I wondered whether it might be too good a job. Did you check with an on-line image finder in case it was an exact copy of someone's photo?

AJ

Replies:   Switch Blayde
Switch Blayde 🚫

@awnlee jawking

Did you check with an on-line image finder in case it was an exact copy of someone's photo?

No. Don't know how.

Replies:   awnlee jawking
awnlee jawking 🚫

@Switch Blayde

No. Don't know how.

A long time ago in a universe far, far away, I somehow managed it using Google's Image Finder. Google long since stopped supporting my prehistoric browser for their image searches, so I'm afraid I can't really help :-(

AJ

Replies:   Switch Blayde
Switch Blayde 🚫

@awnlee jawking

Google's Image Finder

I went to Google. Did a search by image. Uploaded my jpg image (the one Meta AI created, not the one I modified). A bunch of images showed at the right, but none matched mine.

Replies:   awnlee jawking
awnlee jawking 🚫

@Switch Blayde

A bunch of images showed at the right, but none matched mine.

That's good IMO. It reduces the likelihood of the image having been stolen by the AI company.

AJ

Replies:   Switch Blayde
Switch Blayde 🚫

@awnlee jawking

It reduces the likelihood of the image having been stolen

How thorough is the search? Why didn't it find the one I posted on SOL?

Replies:   awnlee jawking
awnlee jawking 🚫

@Switch Blayde

How thorough is the search? Why didn't it find the one I posted on SOL?

Allegedly Google's image search dataset isn't the most comprehensive. And, IIRC, Google are reluctant to index the contents of SOL and may not be able to if it can't access story content without membership.

AJ

blurred 🚫

@Switch Blayde

I used Meta as well, to generate a photo for boys in the lab as well, I thought it came out quite nicely.

LupusDei 🚫

@Switch Blayde

Lol, just a random rant. AIs are like small children, they don't understand negatives.

I was randomly discussing living arrangements of a rather rich teenage girl (for totally pornographic reasons of course, but didn't let that be obvious) with ChatGPT 4 no less.

At some point I made a mistake, largely unprovoked. I wrote:

"...the house is huge, but not so huge to have staff."

And guess what? Every single response from then on mentioned house staff in same way.

DBActive 🚫

@Switch Blayde

There's an interesting YouTube video by Rick Beato on AI created songs. He's a long time musician, songwriter and record producer but couldn't distinguish the AI from "real" music. His son and wife could, but believed their ability to do so would diminish.
Personally I liked a couple of the songs.
https://youtu.be/zbo6SdyWGns?si=ehQ7wUgnMzJXF2ap

Replies:   Dominions Son
Dominions Son 🚫

@DBActive

He's a long time musician, songwriter and record producer but couldn't distinguish the AI from "real" music.

Hmm, can't decide if that speaks to the quality of AI or to how awful modern music is.

Replies:   DBActive
DBActive 🚫

@Dominions Son

There is lots of great music out there, and lots of junk. The best thing about the internet is that it lets me play almost any song ever recorded in an instant.

awnlee jawking 🚫

@Switch Blayde

AI can beat university students, study suggests

University exams taken by fake students using artificial intelligence beat those by real students and usually went undetected by markers, in a limited study.

University of Reading researchers created 33 fictitious students and used AI tool ChatGPT to generate answers to module exams for an undergraduate psychology degree at the institution.

They said the AI students' results were half a grade boundary higher on average than those of their real-life counterparts.

And the AI essays "verged on being undetectable", with 94% not raising concerns with markers.

This has been in the news recently.

AJ

Replies:   DBActive
DBActive 🚫

@awnlee jawking

Since it was a psych exam, I don't doubt that a random group off the street couldn't give just as good results.

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