I was reading rlfj's blog post. He outright accused Liza Deveraux of plagiarism. I've read his 'A Fresh Start', and I've read what's published of Liza's work.
Do overs with a dysfunctional family? Gee, how many of those have we seen on here over the years? I can see where there were SOME similarities in the origin, but the rest of it? I think his comment and accusation is a bit over the top. Your thoughts?
EDIT to correct spelling of author's name
Couldn't find it under "Lisa Deveraux". It's "Liza Deveraux". It appears I only made it to chapter 4 of her story before I stopped reading it, so I'll have to give it another try to find out why. My memory is not so good anymore lol
Here's the link if anyone else is interested - https://storiesonline.net/s/30882/here-i-go-again-my-second-chance
Pretty much every plot has been done. It's not plagiarism to have two similar plots. "West Side Story" did not plagiarize "Romeo and Juliet."
Certainly that's been the thesis of many academic works on literature: that plot, per se, is not a distinguishing characteristic on its own.
That said, plagiarism is certainly something one can do. I can't see it in this case, but it certainly could happen.
One of the several reasons I have a functional, happy family at the core of my story is that I read one too many stories with dysfunctional families in succession before starting to write mine. One of those was 'A Fresh Start'. I greatly enjoyed 'A Fresh Start', and reference and recommend it in the Foreword to my first book.
It's literally impossible to avoid every twist, turn, trope, and element of other do-overs when writing one. Does the MC have an ex-wife from a bad marriage (as mine does)? Others have done that. Do they have a wife they long to reconnect with, as happens in 'A Fresh Start'? That's obvious been done? Never married? Plenty of that.
Single do-over characters, a few, quite a few, hordes? Been done. Functional or dysfunctional families, making money or not, changing the world or not, nice people or jerks, learning something or not, and on and on. One can permute things such that they're telling a story that has never been told, but there will still be things others can point at and say 'See! That! Right there! Plagiarism!'
It's not plagiarism to have two similar plots.
I think it is if the original is not acknowledged. Bernstein always told us West Side Story was based loosely on Shakespeare's Romeo and Juliet. Disney tips its cap to Rudyard Kipling in the credits of Jungle Book. I could go on.
In the theater and cinema each new production of a work is a plagiarism when you think about it. But mainly, credit is given to the original work.
I guess Shakespeare's Romeo and Juliet is then an excellent example of plagiaris: he took the story from prior authors.
Kipling didn't acknowledge his takings in the books, but did state it elsewhere.
Well said in fact shakespeare was good in that, taking themes and the likes already used and presenting them differently ...furthermore we could say that most tragedies have plagiarized some ancient greek and roman tragedies too hell pretty much every artist and writer pagiarized "someone/something"...I love "a fresh start" but liza's story is far from being similar enough to accuse her of plagiarism. It is like saying that anyone making fried chicked is pagiarizing Kfc xd
It's a pretty derivative do-over, but that's what I would put it down to.
No different to the raft of time travel/alternate reality do-over/second chance stories here that contain the essential elements of aliens/supreme beings, an inventory list of weaponry, and frequent references to ungrateful ex wives/children.
We can start looking for derivative links like Marvin Gaye's publisher, if you want. I mean, shit - is The Grim Reaper just redneck Dance of A Lifetime with guns/military instead of ice skating or is A Perfect World just a basic wish-fulfilment do-over with better wrapping?
They are not even close to be considered plagiarism.
Unless these are by the same writer just with different names this is plagiarism.
Lellan McLemore Spirals, https://storiesonline.net/s/52022/spirals
Marc Nobbs A Good Man https://storiesonline.net/s/69435/a-good-man-tutelam-venit-book-one
They are almost word for word for the first half and then start to diverge.
Hi Ystokes,
The similarities between "A Good Man" and "Spirals" have been discussed here before. There is a lengthy thread here
https://storiesonline.net/d/s3/t4253/plagarism-here-on-sol
I urge you to read the response from Lazeez several posts down the thread where he confirms...
"Regarding the issue brought up by the OP, I've dealt with it seven years ago.
Marc Nobbs didn't use the original author's words. I did a text comparison and no full sentences were used. The plot's start is fairly the same, but I believe the stories have different treatments and different endings."
And I urge you to read my response even further down the thread where I confirm I'd corresponded with the author of Spirals in 2011. Please read the message I sent to Lellan.
Accusations of plagiarism are both hurtful and harmful and should not be made lightly. It is particularly hurtful to have this particular accusation raised again, given it was dealt with both in 2011 and 2018.
I would kindly ask that you withdraw it.
plague
"Plague is a serious illness caused by a germ called Yersinia pestis. The germs mostly live in small rodents and their fleas. The most common way for humans to get plague is a flea bite. Plague is a rare disease. The illness mostly occurs in only a few countries around the world."
Plagiarism may support getting the plague.
I would kindly ask that you withdraw it.
I most likely would have removed it except for how you decided to misspelled my name. I give you permission to call me petty.
Yours is the only story I have read on this site (I have been here since 2001) where I kept thinking I have read this story before.
I can see where there were SOME similarities in the origin
I'm following Liza Devereaux's story and IMO it's independent.
The story has some of the tropes for the genre resulting in some superficial similarities, but the feel, the pace and the scope of the story seem quite different.
I hope the accusations and criticism don't result in Liza stopping posting here.
AJ
For those who are reading Here I Go Again: My Second Chance by Liza Devereaux, save yourself the time and trouble. Just read A Fresh Start, one of my stories.
That is probably the most conceited pile of crap an author could claim about someone else's work!
rlfj's story is nothing but power fantasy. A guy gets the chance to redo his life, for no particular reason at all, and simply uses his knowledge to gain power, wealth, and turn fucking president of the US in the end.
Lisa Deveraux' story is about a guy who has genuine regrets, paired with the need to change things that actually caused trauma for himself. Yes, he turns a wealthy man at the end... but for completely different reasons, by completely different means.
But the biggest bullshit is probably the end of his blogpost:
I am sure I have little legal recourse, just the moral one of informing the readers.
Yeah, buddy. Sure. The fact that you don't have any legal recourse proves that it's NOT plagiarism. If it were, you could have it removed by the mods/admin.
And your "moral recourse" should've been to shut the hell up, instead of trying to dissuade readers from checking out other people's stories.
Blog post has been deleted. Author must have reconsidered. Crisis aborted. Now to return to writing my "Idiot Boy" series.
Crisis aborted.
I beg to differ. I think this was despicable. I can not believe this was a mistake.
Maybe, next time he wants to accuse people of plagiarism, he should read the damn story first.
Maybe, next time he wants to accuse people of plagiarism, he should read the damn story first.
Maybe he should read the definition of plagiarism.
Well, who knows. Maybe he actually believes his story to be so influential he de-facto coined the do-over genre, and everything that came after him is just a cheap knock-off.
At least that's how his blog post read to me.
I think Al Steiner owns the title of "first", at least for SOL.
Sure all the stories are very similar - but what's the alternative? Some 60 year-old starting over at age 40 wouldn't be all that interesting, would it?
Sure all the stories are very similar - but what's the alternative? Some 60 year-old starting over at age 40 wouldn't be all that interesting, would it?
Well, they could start over from birth, but that would be equally not interesting as starting over later in life.
Interesting writing challenge, though. Normally a 'do-over' protagonist remembers their entire former life and retains their overall personality.
Starting over from birth and being a newborn with the memories and personality of an adult would be quite the challenge. Would one even be able to successfully pretend to be an infant? Would they be viewed (largely incorrectly) as a prodigy, a freak of nature, once their cover slipped?
Or would the memories and personality slowly phase in over time? How quickly? How would they cope with this? How could they pass for 'normal'?
It's an interesting challenge. Not one I'd want to take on, but interesting.
Starting over from birth and being a newborn with the memories and personality of an adult would be quite the challenge.
I read a story with that premise (and no, I can't remember where, title or author.) The protagonist was trapped in the body of a helpless, incontinent new-born baby with the memories and feelings of an adult but unable even to speak or move around. Actually, thinking about it, the baby had the ability to see and recognise things from the off whereas I believe the ability to focus evolves over a period of time.
AJ
While not a do-over story there is one where even before birth the baby is narrating the story from his point of view and not in the "Look who's Talking" model.
One of the things I wish to know is what is going on in a baby's mind considering the intense look they have on their face. There is this one TV ad where the baby had just been placed on the mother chest and the look in the kids eye is so focased on the mothers face you just have to know what the kid is thinking.
I don't recall a story, but that was the plot of an episode of the original Quantum Leap tv series.
Starting over from birth and being a newborn with the memories and personality of an adult would be quite the challenge. Would one even be able to successfully pretend to be an infant? Would they be viewed (largely incorrectly) as a prodigy, a freak of nature, once their cover slipped?
Or would the memories and personality slowly phase in over time? How quickly? How would they cope with this? How could they pass for 'normal'?
Chinese webnovels usually managed to keep the cover on, mainly by spending childhood (i.e., before graduating primary school) on developing other skills/activities (e.g., Go, musical instrument, calligraphy, etc.) and keeping his/her head down carefully controlling the score in exams around upper-middle band until zhongkao (public exam at the end of junior high school)/gaokao (... senior high school). It is probably easier in East Asian settings to keep up the cover and pass as 'normal' because of the insane pressure young children were being subjected to before the education reforms starting in late 1990s/early 2000s. Memory of past life may or may not slowly phase out (usually not really addressed, but significant past-life events are part of the plot).
From a few of my friends who wrote some of those webnovels, "do-over protagonist masquerading as a prodigy" usually are not fun to write (basically ends up as a Mary Sue, unless as an outlet after some shitty day at job it is best to avoid it).
From a few of my friends who wrote some of those webnovels, "do-over protagonist masquerading as a prodigy" usually are not fun to write (basically ends up as a Mary Sue, unless as an outlet after some shitty day at job it is best to avoid it).
I think all prodigy/genius characters are a nightmare to write, whether do-overs or otherwise, because authors have no direct experience of actually being a prodigy/genius.
AJ
It depends on how "genius" your character is I suppose. Smartest (polymath) persons in school? Not that different -- they may participate at some local competitions but not/barely break through to national level. Top 0.001% and polymath? Much harder to research and write. Pre-teen going to university? An absolute nightmare.
Thats one of the issues I have concerning music. There is only so many cords to use and so many notes that go together that make sense unless it is jazz. Mostly in the back beat.
Would it be plagiarism if every story had the MC want to make a killing on silver, stop the killing of John Lennon, stop 9/11?
Would it be plagiarism if every story had the MC want to make a killing on silver, stop the killing of John Lennon, stop 9/11?
Well, if (or when) I write a do-over, I would do want to do two of those things. Regarding the third, I might actually help with a Beatles reunion by supplying the bullets needed.
In all the stories that bring up how to save John Lennon not once do they just go to the park and wait till the guy pulls the gun and wack him with a stick. When the cops come just say you were going to ask John for a autograph when you saw the guy with the gun.
There's a reason I started my story post-silver shenanigans and where John Lennon's death would be noticed but nothing to fix.
9/11 is a long way off, and there are a lot of ways for it not to happen, but it's certainly on the radar.
On the other hand, if most Americans came back 20 years before 9/11, I suspect it would be on their radar, too.
Mind you, that's not what happens in the allegedly plagiarized work, where 9/11 is carefully not prevented since it's useful...
The problem with this sort of argument is that plagiarism is an academic standard, not a legal standard.
All plagiarism refers to is the idea that an academic needs to cite their sources. That's it. Any idea, no matter how small or indirectly used, should be cited in the references for an academic paper.
The problem is that novels don't generally have a "Works Cited" list because it's a completely different form of media with a different audience and purpose.
In the unlikely event that Liza Deveraux actually was inspired by rlfj for their story, all that would be necessary to avoid plagiarism would be a single line reading "This story was inspired by the do-over stories of author x, author y, and rlfj."
Credit given, so there's no plagiarism. And that's assuming that Liza consciously and intentionally lifted elements from specific stories.
The problem with this sort of argument is that plagiarism is an academic standard, not a legal standard.
Yes. The legal standard would be copyright infringement. Problem is: In this case, neither occured.
I read both stories, and I am very confident that, beyond both of them being Do-Over stories, they are hardly comparable. However, rlfj claimed in his blogpost that she copied "A Fresh Start" and merely changed the characters names. That would be a clear copyright infringement.
He didn't complain about her lifting a few sentences without crediting him, which would've been plagiarism.
He didn't complain about her lifting a few sentences without crediting him, which would've been plagiarism.
Even a few sentences of direct copying out of a larger work could be copyright infringement.
I'm going to side with Dicrostonyx on this. Plagiarism is something that doesn't/can't exist outside of an academic setting.
Plagiarism is something that doesn't/can't exist outside of an academic setting.
A quick search turned up cases of people being found guilty of plagiarism in art and movies.
AJ
I'm going to side with Dicrostonyx on this. Plagiarism is something that doesn't/can't exist outside of an academic setting.
Plagiarism or just a basis
I think there's an element of 'Are you still beating your wife?' in that question because my opinion is neither.
AJ
So many people also miss you can't copyright plot, only the specific expression of that plot. Otherwise pretty much every story on here is plagiarized in some way without that distinction.
Otherwise pretty much every story on here is plagiarized in some way without that distinction.
The general consensus is there are 7 plots:
Overcoming the monster.
Rags to riches.
The quest.
Voyage and return.
Comedy.
Tragedy.
Rebirth.
Hmm, are do-over stories in the rebirth plot?
It doesn't fit neatly into Booker's classification, which isn't really a surprise. If I am forced to use that list, I'd say do-over is a plot device that can be used in any of those 7. It isn't rebirth because there is really nothing to stop a do-over story where MC becomes a worse version. Similarly you can have a wealthy MC in previous life (so not r2r), and I'm sure you can come up with other cases to rule out the others.
I'd say do-over is a plot device that can be used in any of those 7.
My comment was tongue-in-cheek. I don't agree with the 7-plot concept.
The general consensus is there are 7 plots:
That explains why few, if any, generals become recognised novelists ;-)
AJ
The real problem for anyone writing a re-do of the school years is that as a kid, your options are limited, and the school environment limits them either further.
Parents (whether evil or overly protective) add even more constraints.
So the choices are to write something unrealistic (involving magic, super powers or aliens) or to write something that is inevitably going to involve similar problems and similar solutions.
I've often thought how much better my high school experience would have been if I had spent 4 years in the Marine Corps first. Being able to kill with your bare hands would have been a useful skill at my HS.