Forum: Story Discussion and Feedback

His First Tier character count would probably be over 50.

50 characters who are the focus in all chapters? Today's chapter had only two, one of whom was comatose the whole time while Dessie staked a claim to be an alpha ;-)

AJ

I would consider first tier as characters who interact with the MC on a regular basis; even if they aren't mentioned in every chapter. For example: Jeff's family members, his fellow alphas and their wives, security personnel, etc.

I've noticed that the author now makes a point of name-checking the wives every few chapters, even though they don't contribute to the story arc. Previously, most of them would go 10-20 chapters without getting a mention. I wouldn't call them first tier.

AJ

Your question is difficult to answer. I interpret First Tier to mean characters who are the focus in all chapters. Second Tier could be characters who make periodic appearances or a single appearance. I call characters that make a single appearance 'bit players' or you might call them Third Tier characters. Second Tier characters might be thought of as characters that make periodic reappearances.

The proper terminology, rather than 'first or second tier' is primary (principally, the protagonist and those directly supporting him), secondary, those the protagonists have regular contact with, and tertiary, or those characters who play no central role in the story. Then there are the many NPC characters, who play a role in specific scenes, but even though given names, are simply not worth keeping track of over the course of the story.

At least, those are the literary definitions which most authors/editors/publishers use to describe their stories.

I don't think RoustWriter will ever end the story. His death or inability to writer will probably be the cause of the final chapter and that chapter may not be the end of the story. Unless something catastrophic happens in the last chapter to kill off all the characters.

many characters others can keep track of as readers

He said "You need a Character list with references"

That's why I'm getting ready to publish my character list with references of the 325 names. Book Four will have 17 chapters published online as of tomorrow, so the readers will be able to help keep them straight.

I keep working on a cast list and not getting it done.

My (considerably incomplete) working draft of a cast list has 180 names and doesn't reach the end of Book 2. I strongly suspect I'm well over 300 by now.

Yes, there are names (not many, but a few) on the list who I can't remember and will need to remind myself of :)

I keep working on a cast list and not getting it done.

Among other documents, I maintain a cast list while writing, listing not only names, relationships, identifying characteristics (ex: sex, age, etc.) and what chapter they first appear in for reference purposes.

I share it, along with the story's timeline, so my editors can track timeline errors, but it's primarily my responsibility to keep them all straight, so I focus on getting everything right, initially.

When I'm done, I'll double back, during my 'revision' phase, and create a 'character list' which I'll often include in my longer sagas (though that's generally frowned upon by most literary types), where I drop anyone who's not reference in multiple chapters throughout the book (easily a third to forth of most of my characters).

I'm reading 'Daze in the Valley'. In a chapter I read yesterday, someone named Melanie was mentioned as giving legal advice. I couldn't remember who Melanie was but I didn't want to be broken out of the story so I let it go.

This morning I found the story has a cast list, but there's no Melanie. Does anyone know who Melanie is?

Could Jay Cantrell have merged two characters into one? That might explain Celina speaking at a meeting at which she was supposedly absent.

AJ

I need the list as I frequently work on multiple stories at the same time and it helps to keep the character names correct.

For me, the primary purpose is in keeping the various character names spelling consistent, so while I'm writing, I'll keep checking the spelling, because it's SO easy to spin off into left field are reference a completely different or nonexistent character name by accident!

My reaction to that is that a cast list should follow their introduction, not precede it. When I finally get my cast list published, it'll be either end-of-book, or Book 2 will start with the list established in Book 1. End-of-book is the more 'obvious' placement, but it requires readers to hop between books, so beginning-of-book seems quite possible.

Anything else is spoiler-y. The cast list available at the start of a book should only contain characters who are already introduced. I'd also prefer to minimize the description - enough to call them to mind or give an reference to the chapter in which they're introduced.

I agre with your comment about massive casts, up to a point. There are varying degrees of 'massive'. I'd have to really think about whether King has gotten upwards of 100 named characters in an individual work, for instance.

One of the good and bad things about a long-form high-school story is that my MC is in a graduating class of over 400. He'd likely only see perhaps one hundred to one hundred fifty of those people per day, but he'd see them every single day, know their names, a bit about each of them, etc.

Then there are teachers, kids in other grades (sixteen hundred students!), family, and so forth.

Sure, I can - and do - pare it back, but there are fifty or so people (those in the two competitively-oriented classes, Drama and Debate) that need constant name-checking, plus ten to fifteen close friends who aren't in that circle, and so forth. It's hard to reintroduce who X is, since my character explaining who they are is odd given that he sees them literally every day and so does everyone else in that circle, yet X may be truly a minor character (a quiet freshman who doesn't do very much, for instance).

That's where the cast list makes sense. It shouldn't be helpful for major characters, but the side character that got a mention twenty chapters ago and pops back up is different.

Now, I could cut minor characters, but they add flavor. So do the various truly side characters (police, doctors, etc) who make one appearance and then, perhaps, turn up one hundred chapters later in a coincidental encounter. Those can often be explained; a cast list is still helpful.

There are some limitations to where a Cast List can be placed in a story. By default it goes before chapter 1. I posted my Cast List after Chapter 25, and made a note Requesting that it be posted as the "Last Chapter" on a continuous basis, If Possible.

It is posted before my 1st chapter.

I have seen a story where in the middle of a Chapter a writer has included a Character List, but the Chapter is NOT Called "Character List" from some discussions I have had in the forums, that might be "cheating" but since no one has "Reported" it, it's being ignored.

Hmm, I quite like the way Uncle Jim handles it

I don't think it would be right for a dead tree novel but I think it works well for a SOL serial.

AJ

That would drive me crazy. I wouldn't memorize the reference when it's first provided, so once James McHenry turned up on-page, I'd be flipping back to the cast list (or just blowing it off).

It's also nigh useless when James McHenry turns up in chapter 11, is absent for chapters 12-97, and then appears in chapter 98. By that point I have no idea where he appeared and need to do a global search to find the character description.

Character lists matter most for highly occasional characters, and for those, they work best when there's one place to go and find the information.

Note: my internal character lists don't follow that, but for me, it's much more useful to look in my list of teachers, parents, Debaters, Drama students, etc than to have one long list. But that's not true of readers, who probably have no idea that X is a Debater and not a Drama student or a random student when X turns up again.

It's also nigh useless when James McHenry turns up in chapter 11, is absent for chapters 12-97, and then appears in chapter 98.

Another way of addressing the problem is for the author to drop an aide-memoire into the story itself.

AJ

There are some limitations to where a Cast List can be placed in a story. By default it goes before chapter 1. I posted my Cast List after Chapter 25, and made a note Requesting that it be posted as the "Last Chapter" on a continuous basis, If Possible.

As in literary works, character lists are considered 'back matter' and thus belong at the end of the book, where they can be easily searched anytime a reader gets confused over who someone is after a prolonged absence (or too many too similar names).

That approach is useful for reading completed stories, where keeping track of characters is inherently much easier, but I've also tried to create a 1st chapter character list (usually as a 2nd or later book) of stories I'm currently posting. The idea there is that, once the story is completed, you delete the earlier temporary character list, replacing it with the final list. The other key is to only list those characters currently in the book, rather than listing those who appear much later in the story.

However, after trying that secondary approach, I eventually abandoned it as utterly unworkable, and went with the 'if readers can't remember characters, then you've failed as an author', and then focus on making each character memorable, or simply drop them entirely during the revision phase.

The worst case is when I wrote my Not Quite Human series, which included a LOT of different species, each of which had their own specific naming conventions. The cast list in that story quickly grew exponentially, and eventually included a separate 'Astrography' (or rather, a list of Astronomical place names) to keep track of the list of different worlds visited over the course of the book.

Again, I'm not sure I'd ever try tackling that amount of work again, as it's utterly unwieldy!

I have been writing a World War Two story (on the side for a couple of years) (I won't put any chapters up until at least Book 1 is complete.)

My character list is the Forty Men who are the initial members of an Infantry Platoon. I present their information as if it would be on a 3x5 card, basically the information their Platoon Leader would have to assign them to their initial duties.

I also have about a half dozen officers, Company, Battalion, Regimental commanders, and a General. Some are historical individuals. I provide a paragraph or so biography for each. I also mention if they are a Historic person.

I did this because most people don't know much about what diverse things many officers did between World War One and Two.

The story is told mostly from the perspective of the main character, and several other people in his platoon/company.

Readers will get to know about the various characters during their training and preparation for Operation Overlord ("D-Day") after combat begins, and casualties mount, replacements will quickly enter, and often quickly leave the story; attrition will grind away the established characters.

The MC is a young man who volunteered to join the US Army in 1939, just after Germany invaded Poland. The Platoon Leader is a major secondary character. My character list is basically what they know about their soldiers when they have to organize their platoon in just a few days.

I used an actual 1 page form that was used for that purpose in that era.

After listing the characters, include a list of the basic weapons, equipment, and organization of a US Army Infantry Company. I also included a bibliography.

I recommend that readers print, or keep a few notes from the character list, if they don't want to go back to it during the story.

I don't want an "information dump" to interrupt the narrative. However, I want to include a reference document for those readers who want it.

I am considering making the experiences of the MC before he becomes Platoon Sergeant a separate story in a short series. Then I could have the Character List at the start of "book 2" just as the Platoon Sergeant (MC) and Platoon Leader are introduced to them too.

As my writing about the fighting in Normandy are developing... also, I recently found a source about the historical unit in late 1944, and 1945; writing multiple "books" in a series becomes more probable.

My initial point is that there are reasons to put a Character List before the first chapter.

Switches easily without disrupting my place in the story.

I run dual monitors. Makes it easy to keep the story on the main monitor, then I can use the second one to pull up whatever reference I need.

Both you and StarFleet Carl have good points. I made the suggestion, because that is what I do. I sometimes make character lists for stories that don't have them.

I tend to make my own notes, that for good reasons were not included in a character list. Such as relationships, or a major event; or just my opinions.

Personally, I don't think I've ever read a story as complicated as you describe. But another aspect to consider is whether the author creates the characters ahead of time, or just adds them on the fly.

Since I personally write in multiple passes (which inherently limits the number of chapters in a story), I'll typically just start writing and largely skip personal descriptions entirely (though a few times I've actually researched the primary characters ahead of time, but have never preferred that approach).

Then, on my first revision pass, I'll add both the personal descriptions of the characters, but also the physical descriptions (neighborhoods, streets, neighborhoods, schools, home, etc.). Before that, I don't really know which characters, other than the primary and a few secondary, who'll be important enough to delve that far into. Plus, often their personalities will congeal only after several 'character' chapters.

I disagree, but for a specific reason: it depends on the story. Some stories are just fine with a small, limited cast - indeed, that's the best thing for some.

When writing on a large canvas, though, it rapidly becomes impossible. For e.g. a high school coming of age story, one has at minimum: protagonist, protagonist's S.O., parent(s), and protagonist's S.O.'s parents. That's six. One could water down parents a bit, but they're pretty important to the development of protagonist and protagonist's S.O., in my opinion. Then you have friends (one assumes), perhaps a significant teacher-mentor or two, etc.

Eight-ten and we've barely scratched the surface.

One can argue over what a 'main' character is, but the point is made.

Make that story long-form and the number of name-check characters is going to get very high.

It's not just SOL epics that have this problem, though. Steven King's 'The Stand' has at least twelve main characters, and that's being quite ruthless on who's a 'main character'. 'A Song of Ice and Fire' aka 'Game of Thrones' has far more than that.

I will, however, agree considerably with:

Nothing worse, imo, than introducing a new character and then having that character serve no purpose in the story except another piece of ass.

Unless, of course, the plotline at that point involves the main character being shallow and treating new people like a piece of ass - then there's a point. Also, any character introduced and treated that way is by definition not a first or second tier character, I'd say.

Not sure entirely if Chekov's Gun applies, though. One could argue that the construction "If a character appears in the story, they must wind up having sex" is analogous to "If a gun appears, it must wind up being fired" :)

One last thought: what constitutes a 'character'? For instance, I have teachers who appear virtually only as names. We've never heard them say anything, we don't know what they look like, etc. Are they 'characters'? Or 'placeholders'?

I have a paramedic who's appeared twice and had a bit of dialogue. He's important to the scenes he appears in but has no actual bearing on the story; some other paramedic with a different appearance and attitude would barely move the needle. Is he a 'character'? If so, what 'tier'?

Sometimes you need people like that to move the story along.

Then, we have people in classes with two dozen other students, and in the case of Drama or Debate, all of those other students are 'doing something' - acting or competing. Never name-checking them seems wrong, but many are third or lower tier. People aren't invested in them, and shouldn't be - but their names come up. It's not unexpected for readers to say 'Wait, who's again?' when X is the quiet freshman my main character sees literally every school day but interacts with seldom (but not never).

At the same time, my main character is unlikely to say 'X, who's usually just a quiet freshman, did really well ...' It's comparatively difficult to re-introduce X whenever they turn up, because from the first-person narrator's perspective, of course everyone involved knows who X is.

Thus the need for a CoC. It's not for the first or second tier characters. If you're forgetting who they are (even if there are quite a few) there's a problem. It's for the minor-but-name-checked characters who turn up every so often.

Also, in a long story, minor character X might well suddenly become a major character. Perhaps the quiet freshman studies and learns and suddenly isn't so quiet and is kicking ass. Or asks the main character to Sadie Hawkins. Or ... whatever. One of the fun parts of stories is that people's roles aren't always set and static.

I agree that everyone has opinions.

However, not all types of stories are the same. A Rom-Com can get away with just 5 or 6 major characters, and perhaps another half-dozen named characters. Especially if it is not a very long story.

Most of my stories are Military stories, often occurring over months or even years.

Perhaps you are an unmentioned character hanging around in the background of the Platoon. Or maybe you are a kid listening to Gramps tell you about what the war was really like.

You know the names, and at least a bit about All of the guys who've been with you all through training, and your initial experience of combat. You know the names of the Officers in your Chain of Command, as well as the First Sergeant and the Sergeant Major too. Probably the Supply Sergeant and a couple of the Cooks too.

You got 3 or 4 guys who are your buddies. Maybe not everyone likes them as much as you do. It doesn't matter they are Your Favorites. Everybody remembers Jones, he's the practical joker; like him or not, he's often getting attention. So too Smitty, that dang Hillbilly, he talks funny, and the Platoon Sergeant is yelling at him all of the time. Then there's "Dutch" Mueller, everybody Knows he's a Kraut, he's still got an accent. But he worked in a slaughterhouse, and an amateur boxer say he's a Kraut to his face and he'll punch your lights out. Everybody knows "Cowboy" is the best shot; he doesn't say much, his guns do his talking for him.

Edwards was the first guy killed. You guys hadn't even got to the front and a mortar round dropped practically on his head. Weren't enough left if him to fill his canteen cup. You can't remember his face, but you won't forget how he died. After Jonesy lost his leg, things weren't as funny anymore. Mueller died a hero, saving the rest of the squad! No one will call him a "Kraut" and not get a beating. Then there are the new guys. It seems they arrive with evening chow, and they're gone. Dead, or wounded and you can't remember their names. Maybe you never even heard their names.

A Large Cast of Characters that should be at least somewhat familiar with. Whose death or wounding, or survival should mean something to you. Also, some of the new characters that you don't know enough about to miss when there gone. You might remember how they died, but you don't know anything about them. Maybe there is a really young "kid" who was friendly like a puppy. Or the quiet guy from Chicago, who doesn't die like all the rest he survives his first week. Then a month. So, maybe you'll actually learn his name (but he probably won't be as well-known as the guys from back at Camp Swampy).

Part of the story I am trying to tell is by showing how replacements were often treated during WWII.

Not all War Stories are the same. But there are aspects of war and human relations that have similarities throughout recorded history.

I have another tab for plot points where I can easily find where they start, and then another tab for locations so that I remember what places were visited and what chapter I can find my description of that place. That's often useful as I may mention it later in the story but I just want to remember the description its there.

Brilliant!

I do not have Tabs. I do have a Maps and images folder of some of the key locations of several of my stories. I also have written descriptions of those locations. Necessary, because I set my stories in a specific year. Thus, I need to describe those locations as they were at the time my story is set. Not as they are now.

Such as Cannon AFB, New Mexico (in 2018), or Fort Moultrie, South Carolina (c.1939-1941); or the Cotentin Peninsula, Normandy France June and July 1944.

I have photos of those locations that I visited between 1983 and 2014.