Forum: Story Discussion and Feedback

Unfortunately, if the author does not an active method to communicate with him/her, there may not be a way to have it corrected.

you can report the matter to the Webmaster and Lazeez can check the original submission file and reprocess if it was an error by the wizard and not in the file.

First rate plot, fifth rate presentation.

As soon as I see his penname, I skip the story even thought the description is interesting. That is the end result of not caring about producing a well written story.

Think positive, it's an expression of freedom, yours as well as his.

I agree. I create my freedom from the frustration of reading poorly written stories by skipping his stories. He creates his freedom by not having a mail address that would allow his readers to tell him to get an editor.

I like his stories, however most of the grammar Nazi types don't like my stories either. It's probably the way he talks every day. I know it is in my case. I don't change the way I talk when I speak to Doctors, Lawyers, Educators, or Joe Blow.

You're talking about the story voices (accents and speaking manner of characters and the narrator). You can vary that, but that has nothing to do with grammar and punctuation errors.

In this case, the author is using the site as a story dump. He writes the stories, and drops them on the site without caring what the end result looks like. Most authors want feedback and will change obvious errors, but not even passing a story through an editor means he's writing purely for themselves. He simply has no interest in getting better at his craft (I'm assuming).

Has anyone noticed whether his stories have improved over time (i.e. does he at least try to improve)?

It is not only punctuation, spelling, and grammar. It is the words dropped out of his sentences and the extra word left in that don't fit. It improper word choices; I forget his but words like: there, their, and they're. It isn't about the way he normally talks to someone. It is the repeated passages, and I sincerely doubt he speaks four sentences to his friends in a conversation and then says the same four sentences again.

I don't know if he ever had an email address. If so, I suspect he got tired of his readers telling him about his errors and that he needed an editor. His answerer must have been to disable his email address so he wouldn't have to listen to people who were only trying to help him.

In his blog post, he was ridiculing the 1-bombers. What that means is, he was seeing 1-votes registering on his stories' histograms. The 1-votes do not show up on the histogram until they exceed 5% (or is it 10%) of the story's total number of votes. I suspect his histograms also show a high count of 2-votes and 3-votes.

If more than 5% of my story's voters were 1-bombing me, I would interpret that as me having a serious problem with my writing. For me, the bottom line is he is a poor writer and isn't interested in why he is getting so many low votes.

He description of his story 'Howe & Watson 3sum' and comments in other descriptions say it all:

Just another boring story from a boring writer. If you are expecting wild graphic sex or violence SKIP this. If you are offended by poor writing Skip this.

I'm sticking with the first statement I made in this string.

There's nothing wrong with the stories you write under the Catman pen name. Not even close to what some of us are complaining about.

Spelling words correctly and using the correct word or contraction instead of a homophone or homonym is what separates authors from hacks, imho.

We'll have to disagree on that. IMO having a story worth telling is what principally separates authors from hacks.

AJ

Even if an author ignores helpful attempts to help correcting his mistakes, it still doesn't mean it's his purpose to make mistakes. It just means he views the 'how' as less important than the 'what' he wants to convey, and isn't willing to spend more -unpayed- time on his story.

The reason for ignoring the rules isn't relevant - their clear decisions to ignore them and not correct errors means they don't care and aren't trying to tell the story properly. I spend most of my time researching for stories, writing stories, and editing stories (both mine and for others) with 105 works now listed on SoL - I'm lucky in that some people have paid me for e-pub copies in the last few years. I've been writing fiction stories for 17 years, and I don't get paid for what i post here at SoL, but I do my best to see my work is written properly and conveys the message properly.

To me, you either care enough about the story you write to make it as best as you can, or you don't care about it and are basically wasting time and effort on it if you refuse to fix significant errors.

I don't have, and don't want, the authority to decide what others like reading, or see as a 'proper' story.

What is and isn't a story is one issue, but when someone has problems writing and isn't prepared to listen to people about the errors, then what they have is crap. Yes, it's their right to write crap, but they shouldn't try to sound smug about it, either.

What is and isn't a story is one issue, but when someone has problems writing and isn't prepared to listen to people about the errors, then what they have is crap. Yes, it's their right to write crap, but they shouldn't try to sound smug about it, either.

My issue isn't with the story's themselves, but it's more a 'red flag' issue for me, signally someone who's only writing to amuse himself, rather than writing to perfect his craft. Those of us trying to earn a reputation want readers to think of our names as our 'brand', and thus we ensure they're as professional as we can make them. Someone who doesn't give a fig what anyone thinks has no incentive to get better, because they simply don't care whether anyone reads their stories or not.

I wonder whether he obsesses over scores as much as the rest of us do?

I wonder whether he obsesses over scores as much as the rest of us do?

speak for yourself in that one, CW. I only ever look at the scores when doing so is relevant to a forum discussion.

unpayed

I don't usually suggest corrections to forum posts, and I certainly make my fair share of mistakes in my own posts. But bearing in mind that English isn't your first language, would you want a reader to suggest 'unpaid' instead of 'unpayed'.

If not, apologies, and please forget I spoke.

AJ

We're talking about hobby authors, who aren't paid for their time and effort. Even if an author ignores helpful attempts to help correcting his mistakes, it still doesn't mean it's his purpose to make mistakes.

As far as I know, we have NO Professional authors here (i.e. those who earn enough they don't need another source of income). In fact, only a few receive ANY income from our efforts, yet we manage to find editors, make corrections and accept helpful comments.

We aren't (Ernest, Switch and I) criticizing him for making honest mistakes, instead we're questioning how serious he is about his craft, whether he has any interest in improving at all, or whether he simply doesn't want to be bothered by readers (there are plenty of the latter, who still find editors to work with).

If it's a matter of limited time (to respond, or edit, or care), you'd think he'd put that in a blog, so readers would know to leave him alone!

instead we're questioning how serious he is about his craft,

To me, like many other authors, the stories I write are my children I need to nurture, help to grow, improve, and care for. That means fixing errors and bad grammar etc. A total lack of interest in fixing errors shows they don't care about the story, it's done toss it out and forget it seems to be the attitude. If that's the attitude about fixing errors, you have to wonder how much care they put into the story in the first place.

Fuck it, I just want to write a story.

No problems with that, but when someone points out a basic error and you get on your high horse and refuse to fix it because you'd rather have it look like crap than a story, then you cease to be a write.

BTW: I never said it had to be perfect, because once you leave formal English there's no way to say what is perfect and what isn't. However, if you fail to apply basic spelling and basic grammar, you aren't writing a story that's readable, your just throwing words on a page in a pile of crap.

I left school at the end of 4th Form (year 10 today) in 1970.

Also, it's been my experience that those who know more about the rules of English are those who learned it as a 2nd language because they had to study it with great care, unlike us native speakers.

Also, it's been my experience that those who know more about the rules of English are those who learned it as a 2nd language because they had to study it with great care, unlike us native speakers.

I was always well-read, and thus could generally recognize what 'seemed right' and what wasn't, but they changed the way they taught English when I was mid-way through middle school. I was so lost when they finished, I couldn't figure out what was what. I've learned more about writing since I started than I had in the 50 years previously.

It's a matter of professional pride. None of us earn much (if anything), but we take pride in our work. If someone can tell us how to better our efforts, we will (even if we often question what some Joe-off-the-street suggests).

Each of us has our own writing story, and we're not about to force others to adopt our particular styles, approach or write the same stories we do, but I admire those who try to better themselves, and appreciate the strides they make. That's the great thing about the Forum, so a bunch of know-nothings can compare notes, and figure out what we never learned in English Lit.

Ernest, maybe your "best as you can" and another persons is not even close. What the grammar guys with their years of study of the English language consider "best" and mine are worlds apart. Some of you seem to think that everyone who writes a story should have spent years learning.

Hardly! I've only been studying grammar, composition and formatting for as long as I've been publishing here on SOL (since 2010). I only published late in 2012. Yet I've always struggled to improve as an author, and to make my books the very best they can be (within my limited abilities).

An author who's unwilling to improve should serve as a red flag to readers, as it means he simply doesn't care about his story (and by implication, if he doesn't, then neither should you).

An author who's unwilling to improve should serve as a red flag to readers, as it means he simply doesn't care about his story (and by implication, if he doesn't, then neither should you).

I disagree. If he didn't care about his story, he wouldn't have bothered to waste time writing it in the first place. 525K's worth with a decent plot and interesting characters is not something that has been lightly undertaken.

AJ

If he didn't care about his story, he wouldn't have bothered to waste time writing it in the first place.

Nobody is saying he does not have a desire to write. He just has no desire to improve his writing. He wants to tell his stories, but he seems to be missing the desire to reach as wide an audience as possible. Those who either do not care about his poor writing skills, or do not recognize the mistakes when they read them are his readers and supporters. His attitude reminds me of a certain science fiction writer.

It means no such thing.

I said it's a "red flag". What about that statement are you missing? It means, it signals other things that I attribute to it, not things that are actually there. I'm making assumptions about his interests, because he's not saying anything about his own writing.

I generally avoid any story where the author can't write a decent description, or has so many errors I can figure out what the story is about. Those, again, are 'red flags' for me. Like a bull, I choose not to enter those particular arenas where I'm likely to get stabbed by my own dislikes.

He simply does not want to be harassed by you Grammar Freaks

If, by grammar freak, you mean someone with a passing grade in elementary school English, then I accept that title. It seems to me that some of those who claim to not care about grammar, spelling, etc. are actually saying that they are not educated enough to know how to correct their work, and do not care that they are ignorant - in fact, are downright prideful & belligerent about it. This anti-education attitude is becoming prevalent in our society and is responsible for the "dumbing down" of this country. It does not look good for our future.

If he did not care he would not have written it. He simply does not want to be harassed by you Grammar Freaks and it is as simple as that.

You are confusing the desire to create a story with the desire to produce a well written story. We all acknowledge that MW has the desire to create stories; no argument there.

What the majority of us are saying is, MW knows and has stated that he has problems with at least grammar. While he may make some effort to correct his grammatical errors, there are no visible indications that he is taking the steps necessary to create well written stories, which includes improving one's knowledge of grammar and how to write effectively and the use of editors and proofreaders to locate the errors he is missing.

there are no visible indications that he is taking the steps necessary to create well written stories, which includes improving one's knowledge of grammar and how to write effectively and the use of editors and proofreaders to locate the errors he is missing.

A term currently popular is 'willful ignorance.'

Ignorance is not the same thing as stupidity, although sometimes the lines tend to blur. Ignorance is simply lack of knowledge. All of us can improve our knowledge on any subject, if we desire to improve. None of us are know-it-alls, despite accusations to the contrary by the willfully ignorant.

Willful ignorance is like the old joke about the difference between ignorance and apathy - "I don't know & I don't care." I'll gladly help anyone with anything I know, and help them find answers about the things I don't know,if they are willing to make the effort to learn. I have no tolerance for the willfully ignorant.

Agreed. :)

Just so you know, I have never refused to fix a punctuation error and I use the spell check in Libre Office

I never doubted it. You're here seeking advice, like the rest of us. You don't always accept what the rest of us feel on any given topic, but you'll at least hear us out and consider alternate opinions.

Authors grown by breaking rules, but if you just write as you always have, you're unlikely to do anything differently. IMHO.

I have heard all through some of the forum post that a writer writes for himself and nobody else.

Again, writers write what motivates them, but what some playbook tells them to. It's not a question of what he writes, but whether he believes in his writing and takes any pride in it. Like I said, it's a 'red-flag' issue. If an author doesn't care about his own story, I assume I should care about it either.

I won't criticize any author for his choice of genre, story, topic, characters, style or voice. But if he writes the same thing, over and over, with little regard for what works and what doesn't, it boils down to mental masturbation. No one really wants to watch some old guy masturbating in public!

Writing is personal for us because we form a personal relationship with our readers, even if we never talk. They like our stories because they enjoy the types of stories that we do, they trust us to continue with the things we've done in the past (consistent styles), and hopefully we'll build our readerships over time. Readers learn to trust us because we take such pride in our work, and it shows.

If you enjoy his stories, I don't object. Heck, I used to always download stories and edit them (correcting typos as I went) so they were easier to read. For me, it's more a question of confidence in an author.

I can't see it guys, the man writes good stories, gives them to us, and then you want to bitch about grammar.

It isn't so much the grammar, since so few of us can agree on many style issues anyway (serial commas anyone?). But as many mentioned, he's posted the wrong chapter, and then NEVER corrected it. How are readers supposed to deal with a story missing entire chapters? No wonder he gets low scores. Readers will forgive honest mistakes, but if you keep making the same mistakes, with no interest in improving, they'll abandon you.

We all have things about our writing that we simply WON'T change. We also reach the point where we simply stop changing stories, preferring to invest in new stories rather than rehashing the older ones. We also have readers we'd rather not deal with. But ... it's not quite the same.

No, I wont ignore it because in the past they have jumped on me and some of them had not even read my story. I can't understand what gives them the right to be the grammar police. Who the hell appointed them?

The problem with the grammar police is that grammar issues aren't black and white. They fall into different styles, and authors frequently ignore certain rules for the sake of the story (like using punctuation to control the flow of the story, rather than following a set standard of where to place them).

Regardless I close the story and move on to the next one on my list. That list just keeps on growing for some reason.

It probably keeps growing because some authors take pride in producing a well written story, while others don't. While I acknowledge that good grammar is not critical in telling a good story, it does make the story easier to read. Thus some of us just say 'to hell with this guy' when we have difficulty understanding what he is trying to convey.

I agree, however, you will have to clarify who is ridiculing whom.

It sounds like you think we are ridiculing MysteryWriter. Up to this point in the thread, posters have pointed out the problems they have with his writing skills. That is not ridiculing him. It has also been pointed out that MysteryWriter's comments in his story descriptions indicate that he knows about his weaknesses as a writer and he doesn't care. That is not ridiculing him either; those are his words.

Finally, a good writer takes pride in producing the best possible story. That includes going to the trouble of ensuring the story has as few grammatical and structural errors as possible; typically accomplished by using editors and proofreaders. MysteryWriter makes it a point to not expend the time and effort to improve the quality of his stories, and that is what makes him a poor writer.

Ridiculing someone because you believe they have less ability than you is being a school ground bully.

No one here is ridiculing anyone for 'not being as good as us. In fact, we each try to assist anyone asking for advice. He hasn't asked for any advice, so I haven't offered anyone, but his refusal to care is more a matter of interest. I'll invest six months or more to make my stories better, while he can't even be bothered with posting the correct chapter.

But once again, we're at yet another impasse, as one side sees a lack of interest in advancing, while the others see a bunch of Grammar Nazis only intent in critiquing anyone who disagrees with them, meaning no one's listening to what the others are saying. Thus I'll quit wasting time on yet another thread. When people stop communicating, the discussion just turns into personal attacks for any perceived slight.

I think I prefer my method. If anything in any story hits me wrong. I close the story, regardless of who wrote it. If the writer left contact open I will try and tell them why I closed the story. Regardless I close the story and move on to the next one on my list. That list just keeps on growing for some reason.

That's part of the author/reader relationship, which can become very intimate, even if you never meet or communicate with each other. Readers think the author gets them and the author thinks readers appreciate his work and effort. You flaunt that trust at your own risk, as once the trust evaporates, so will readers' interest. :(

I think that's guesswork on your part but it's something I can understand.

For my SOL stories, finishing the first draft is approximately my halfway point in getting the story submission-ready. The second half of the work is boring: proofreading and editing. Sometimes there's a temptation to chuck out the first draft as is and skip the boring stuff. MW seems to use that approach and gets above-average scores. More power to his elbow!

(If my stories were aimed at a dead-tree publisher, first draft would be about a third of the work.)

AJ

We were discussing authors like Mystery Writer and others who belligerently declare their lack of skill with English is actually a lack of concern. Age has little to do with it, but if that shoe fits, wear it.

Thanks and if the shit fits, wear it.

I think you have me confused with another author. I do not write scat stories. I write stories about erotic enemas - a different thing entirely, and no scat involved..

Wheezer, do erotic enemas produce shit? well there you go, you write shit stories.

Resorting to person insults? (or at least attempting to) Have you exhausted reasonable debate and find yourself reduced to schoolyard taunts? I win...

BTW: You are rather vigorously defending Mystery Writer. Are you & he one & the same?

Sort of like Muslims can't understand why the world does not want their religion.

Christians have that exact same problem.

Ok we get it. You are semi-illiterate and proud of it, and you will defend other semi-illiterate writers to the death under the excuse that anyone with even a slightly better education or desire to better their writing is inferior and to be looked down on. Name-calling by labeling them freaks & Nazis is perfectly acceptable. Got it. So be it. Ignorance & apathy rules!

Turning it around means nothing else than 'the pot calling the kettle black'.

I've always considered myself more of a saute' pan than a pot or kettle, but you are otherwise correct. ;)

My patience has worn a bit thin with the anti-intellectual ranting, so I tend to get a bit snappy when that happens. :P

So what are we arguing about: the freedom of speech?

MW can do whatever the fuck he wants with his stories. The head-butting comes with pretending that ignorance and obstinacy is a good thing to be admired. Nobody suggests he be forced to accept help with his poor writing skills. We should try to remember that wrestling with a pig means that both parties are going to get covered in mud & pig shit, but the pig likes it.

Catman, aka Kinkywinks, is actually a pretty decent writer, and most of the complaints against MW do not apply to him at all. I've read & enjoyed his stories and have no complaints. He's just decided to defend MW as if it's something personal.

Where do you find ignorance and obstinacy in these sentences?

In these six words: "This is how I do things..."

In my words you quoted, the first sentence and second sentence did not necessarily refer to the same individual, but included all writers with that attitude. I did not make that point perfectly clear. I assumed the period was enough to separate the thoughts.
The conversation also made references to other (unnamed) authors with a similar attitude toward their writing and readers. As is typical, this thread expanded and drifted quite a ways from the OP.

I wonder why that is.

So that some people in this thread can nit-pick to death everything others say. Yes, MW gives fair warning. A warning I have heeded. I would not go near his stories if I was paid, just as I give fair warning in the description and codes on my own stories so that people who do not care for that particular fetish can avoid them. I just wish other authors with an equally poor grasp of grammar & spelling, or an equally poor attitude toward improving their work would also post clear warning that their story reads like it was written by a 4th grader who is barely getting passing grades. The story scoring system helps, but it doesn't tell why a story receives the scores it does. As has been shown in this thread, some readers blow right through spelling and grammar errors (and other errors)as if they are not there. Don't see them, don't care - doesn't matter, as long as the story content pushes all their buttons. That's fine. It bothers the fuck out of the rest of us. (or just some of us) It does not make us Grammar Nazis. I've read hundreds (thousands?) of such errors on SOL and have never sent a correction notice to an author. Most are random and easily overlooked. It's the 'fuck you' attitude of some authors that pisses me off. Well, fuck them...and the horse they rode in on...and their little dog too...if they have one.

It's the 'fuck you' attitude of some authors that pisses me off.

Which is a large part of my position on this, with the other part being the normal human wish to work to improve what you do. Mind you, I haven't yet jumped on an individual about their grammar, in fact, I think I'm one of the most vocal of people in the forum to talk about how the grammar differs between types of writing and educational systems - which is why I don't like being called a grammar Nazi by someone whose grammar I've never commented on.

Being an author requires some trade skills, and any decent tradesman works to improve their skills. And I'm like any decent tradesman in I don't like people butchering work in my trade.

I'm sure I never called anyone a 'Grammar Nazi',

RH, you didn't call me a Grammar nazi, but another did in response to a post be me. Somewhere in all this a few people started lumping everyone's responses together while abusing people, at which point I stopped addressing individual responses and also ignored a lot of them.

I would not go near his stories if I was paid

That's your right but you're missing out on some pretty good tales - they get good scores for a reason, and that's not because MW is an author who games the system.

Spelling and grammar are not the be-all and end-all of readability. Some authors have good spelling and grammar (or good proofreaders) and good story ideas but are very poor at turning them into interesting stories. As an editor I find those the most depressing because they'd need the most reworking to salvage.

AJ

Spelling and grammar are not the be-all and end-all of readability.

No it's not, and I've enjoyed plenty of stories that have had a few errors in them. I've even found the occasional error in a print book. There is a tipping point though, where the story, no matter how good, becomes unreadable for me. There's a well-known and prolific scifi author on SOL that I just can't read another word of, despite getting through his first three books before giving up.

he can easily bear the loss of two readers

Three ;)

AJ

That's funny, if we're thinking of the same author, I gave up on his story because of the repetitive plot structure he used.

OK, I suppose there's at least two such authors on SOL. ;) Repetitive plot is not an issue with the author I was referring to.

Spelling and grammar are not the be-all and end-all of readability.

You are right it isn't. However, I read for the pleasure of it. When I'm in the middle of a scene and have to stop to figure out what the author is trying to say, that ruins the experience for me. After encountering repeated instances of poor readability like that, I say it is time to exit the story.

There is a fairly recent thread about things that ruin the reading experience and that was one on the things many of us complained about.

If it doesn't bother you, then enjoy his stories.

I checked, but KinkyWinks is not listed as an SOL Author. Do you post on this site, and if so, what is your penname?

It would make things a lot easier on all of us 'Grammar Nazis', so we could avoid providing feedback on your stories. Considering your attitude about improving your ability to write, we might even decide to lump you in with MW and not even open your stories and read them.

I use the pen name Catman hope you enjoy the stories. If not that's fine too.

I'll check out a few before I decide to just ignore your stories like I do MW's.

I'll check out a few before I decide to just ignore your stories like I do MW's.

Catman is a decent writer and has nothing in common with MW's shortcomings - apart from a certain amount of pig-headed obstinance.

Just retired and have thought about it a lot. Not sure where I would start. Thinking about redoing Collapse and combining it all into one story and treating the timeline more conventionally. My original idea was to have Collapse 1 followed by Collapse 2 (ten years later) and then Collapse 3 would be 100 years after that. Didn't work as Collapse 3 would have required all new characters and I didn't have the time to invest in the story at that point. Still like the idea of the apocalypse story and with what is happening today with North Korea that scenario may not be fiction for too much longer. It's hell to me when the real world has become stranger than what I can think up to write.

I just read MW's latest chapter. I had to stop and rewind once because some dialogue didn't have quotes.

That's one less than the number of times I had to stop and rewind when reading the latest story chapter from one of SOL's highest rated authors - a section of dialogue went from alternating speaker A/speaker B paragraphs to what I think was a multi-paragraph pontification by speaker A, although there were no speaker attributions or dropped end quotes to confirm it.

MW writes in a highly vernacular style but generally I think it's pretty easy to read, and I don't think the story deserves the negative reactions it's getting from people who are basing their judgment on the description rather than the actual story contents.

AJ

basing their judgment on the description rather than the actual story contents.

I don't recall much comment at all on the story itself, but plenty on the attitude of authors (MW included) who see no need to correct grammar, spelling, etc.

I just read MW's latest chapter. I had to stop and rewind once because some dialogue didn't have quotes.

That's one less than the number of times I had to stop and rewind when reading the latest story chapter from one of SOL's highest rated authors - a section of dialogue went from alternating speaker A/speaker B paragraphs to what I think was a multi-paragraph pontification by speaker A, although there were no speaker attributions or dropped end quotes to confirm it.

Not sure if I copied that right but I have noticed the same and it does become confusing to me. According to a discussion I recently read somewhere within the forum there is some effort made to limit attributions when it is clear who is speaking. I agree with you that anything that makes me stop and read something twice to discover who said what should have been attributed and putting dialog between two different people in the same paragraph should be avoided. I have written to several writers on this when I found it in their stories and we ended up agreeing to disagree.