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What Makes you Give Up on a Story After Starting it?

Marc Nobbs 🚫

So, you've found a story you like the look of. The description looks intriguing, the tags all match your preferences, it's got decent downloads, a good score and it's the sort of length you're looking for.

But then you start to read it and… Something puts you off. While the storyline has successfully captured your attention and created a desire to keep reading, there's one irritating little thing that's putting you off.

What is that 'one thing?'

What's that tiny irritation that leads you to either give up on the story altogether or else push yourself to continue without truly enjoying it, just to see how it plays out?

For me, it's clunky, unnatural-sounding dialogue. I want the characters to sound like real people having a real conversation, and I'm just someone who happens to have overheard them. I don't want them to sound like they are in a 1950s BBC Radio drama. If the dialogue makes them sound in my head like they have a classic "RP" accent, I'm done. Real people use contractions and colloquialisms, they fumble over their words sometimes, they get excited and use run-on sentences or pause and go "er…". Give me natural-sounding dialogue that I can 'hear' the characters saying, or else, sorry, this one's not for me.

awnlee jawking 🚫

@Marc Nobbs

What's that tiny irritation that leads you to either give up on the story altogether or else push yourself to continue without truly enjoying it, just to see how it plays out?

When the author is so keen to show how clever they are they forget to tell the readers what's going on.

AJ

Replies:   Marc Nobbs
Marc Nobbs 🚫

@awnlee jawking

When the author is so keen to show how clever they are they forget to tell the readers what's going on.

See, now I'm thinking I want some examples to see if I'm as clever as the author thinks they are and can work out for myself what's going on.

Or maybe not.

jimq2 🚫

@Marc Nobbs

When the story is so badly written that it is hard to understand. Bad grammar, poor spelling, lack of editing, using wrong words (there/their/they're)...

Sometimes, it is authors where English is not their native language, but they need to get editing help if they are going to post on an English website.

Replies:   Marc Nobbs
Marc Nobbs 🚫

@jimq2

When the story is so badly written that it is hard to understand. Bad grammar, poor spelling, lack of editing, using wrong words (there/their/they're)...

Agreed. If it's occasional, it's forgivable, as we all miss things from time to time, but if it's persistent throughout, then bye-bye. Reading is supposed to be pleasurable, not hard work.

Replies:   ystokes
ystokes 🚫

@Marc Nobbs

One of my top 10 stories is guilty of all of those in almost every page but still such a good story I slug thru it.
Another08 https://storiesonline.net/s/15822/tales-from-mist-world

rustyken 🚫

@Marc Nobbs

Missing or misplaced quote marks, can cause me to consider spending my time reading something else.

Replies:   Marc Nobbs  REP
Marc Nobbs 🚫

@rustyken

Missing or misplaced quote marks,

Makes it too much like hard work to bother working out who's talking.

REP 🚫
Updated:

@rustyken

Missing or misplaced quote marks

I agree that can cause confusion.

However, I am reading a highly rated story by a respected author that was posted in the early 2000's and I believe the author is deceased. Part way thru a chapter, I think it was Chapter 10, I realized that the author did not use double quotes to enclose the narrative paragraphs. The wording was such that I was able to determine if the paragraphs were narrative or dialog, and if dialog, who was speaking.

REP 🚫
Updated:

@Marc Nobbs

When I repeatedly read sentences and don't understand or have difficulty understanding what the author is trying to say in the sentence/paragraph.

The reasons for my failure to understand vary:

o The author modified a sentence by changing its wording and failed to delete one or more words that no longer apply.

o The author used the wrong homonym, which meant something very different than what they intended.

o The author failed to include a word(s) that were necessary to the intended meaning of the sentence.

o The author combines the dialog of two, or more. speakers in the same paragraph with one or more narrative sentences between the dialog sentences. The dialog is not marked as dialog by enclosing it in double quote symbols ("). As a result, it is not clear who is speaking and when the dialog changes to a different speaker.

o The author used the wrong verb tense (e.g., using the present verb tense when referring to something that happened in the past).

o The author used poor punctuation

o The author used the wrong connecting word [e.g. then (than) instead of than (then) to refer to a point in time/sequence or a comparison].

Michael Loucks 🚫

@REP

o The author used the wrong verb tense (e.g., using the present verb tense when referring to something that happened in the past).

Tense can be a very tricky thing, especially in day-by-day stories where to the characters, the action is in the present, but where past tense is often appropriate.

It's a question of whether or not it a) reads smoothly; b) reflects common speech patterns; c) conveys the author's meaning.

Similar difficulty arises with lexical imprecision.

"He gave him his ball."

That is a perfectly valid English sentence. If there are three different male participants, you could write it:

"John gave Joe Jim's ball."

If there are two, you could write:

"John returned Jim's ball."

"John gave Jim the ball."

The second only conveys correct meaning if the context has established to whom the ball belongs; otherwise, it's imprecise.

Fundamentally, as with all grammar and vocabulary, the question is β€” does the author properly convey his meaning in a way that doesn't require you to re-read the sentence or paragraph to work out the meaning. If so, no problem, even if the tense is 'off'.

By the way, everyone understands "Billy and me went to the store." even if it's grammatically incorrect. Or is it? If a sufficiently large number of people use that, then it's a variation, not an error because grammar and vocabulary 'rules' are descriptive, not prescriptive.

Replies:   samuelmichaels
samuelmichaels 🚫

@Michael Loucks

By the way, everyone understands "Billy and me went to the store." even if it's grammatically incorrect. Or is it? If a sufficiently large number of people use that, then it's a variation, not an error because grammar and vocabulary 'rules' are descriptive, not prescriptive.

I assume you refer to John McWhorter's podcast on this, but if not, it's worth listening:
https://slate.com/podcasts/lexicon-valley/2016/10/john-mcwhorter-on-the-made-up-rules-of-pronouns

Replies:   Michael Loucks
Michael Loucks 🚫

@samuelmichaels

I assume you refer to John McWhorter's podcast on this, but if not, it's worth listening:

I have basically every one of McWhortor's books. Been a fan for more than a decade. :-) Reading 'Pronoun Trouble' now which is exactly on topic! :-)

Crumbly Writer 🚫

@Michael Loucks

The nonstandard pronouns were NEVER of you, dumbass. They're there for the minority, who need them simply to survive in this world. Yet now, with the recent turn that America has made and the rest of world keeps trying to, 'those people' won't be around for long. So you'll likely never hear from, or even see them again.

In short, you won, the minority, as usual, loses, no matter what protections they're afforded. Big fucking surprise!

And that's not a personal comment, as it's NOT directed at you personally, yet I'm now counting the days I'll likely remain alive. Again, congratulations! But then, you've never liked me anyway, so again, why would you care whether anyone like me lives or not?

By the way, don't bother responding, as there's no need. We both know where we stand, only in my case, it won't make a bit of difference.

Replies:   Marius-6
Marius-6 🚫

@Crumbly Writer

The nonstandard pronouns were NEVER of you, dumbass. They're there for the minority, who need them simply to survive in this world. Yet now, with the recent turn that America has made and the rest of world keeps trying to, 'those people' won't be around for long. So you'll likely never hear from, or even see them again.

In short, you won, the minority, as usual, loses, no matter what protections they're afforded.

...

Please Translate.

As far as I can determine, Michael Loucks was posting about McWhortor's books and podcasts to inform aspiring authors. Or am I mistaken?

Replies:   Michael Loucks
Michael Loucks 🚫

@Marius-6

As far as I can determine, Michael Loucks was posting about McWhortor's books and podcasts to inform aspiring authors. Or am I mistaken?

You are not mistaken. McWhortor is an expert on linguistics and I have learned a tremendous amount from him.

Michael Loucks 🚫

@Michael Loucks

The nonstandard pronouns were NEVER of you, dumbass. They're there for the minority, who need them simply to survive in this world. Yet now, with the recent turn that America has made and the rest of world keeps trying to, 'those people' won't be around for long. So you'll likely never hear from, or even see them again.

WTF? That is NOT what the book is about, you jackass!

The nature of language is to shift and evolveβ€”but every so often, a new usage creates a whole lot of consternation. These days, pronouns are throwing curveballs, and it matters, because pronoun habits die hard. If you need a refresher from eighth-grade English: Pronouns are short, used endlessly, and serve to point and direct, to orient us as to what is meant about who. Him, not her. Me, not you. Pronouns get a heavy workout, and as such, they become part of our hardwiring. To mess with our pronouns is to mess with us.

But many of today's hot-button controversies are nonsense. The singular they has been with us since the 1400s and appears in Shakespeare's works. In fact, many of the supposedly iron-clad rules of grammar are up for debate (Billy and me went to the store is perfectly logical!), and with tasty trivia, unexpected twists, and the weird quirks of early and contemporary English, John McWhorter guides readers on a journey of how our whole collection of these little words emerged and has changed over time.

It's about the linguistics and grammar of pronouns. McWhortor is a black progressive.

Vincent Berg 🚫

@REP

Combining dialogue can be confusing, yet that's the whole point of having only a single topic (subject) for each paragraph (yet another convention often ignored on SOL, where they frequently put two different speakers in EACH dialogue paragraph, along with the narrative descriptions.

But, following the 'single subject' (or speaker in dialogue) convention helps to naturally avoid it, as you'd then need to combine whole paragraphs, which will ALWAYS be highly confusing, both for readers and the original author!

Charro6 🚫

@Marc Nobbs

A story where the author is constantly and repetitively telling me what the characters are thinking or feeling.
Recent example Variation on a Theme, Book 6 by Grey Wolf.

Repetitive sex scenes.
Example Three Square Meals by Tefler.

I will first start skimming while reading, the more of the story I skim over the more likely I will quit the story.

Vincent Berg 🚫

@Charro6

That's the whole 'day-in-the-life' storytelling style, where each chapter is essentially a single day, and yeah, I've always hated that particular style, preferring 'event-driven' stories, where if nothing happens that day, or that month or even that decades, there's simply no reason to detail it.

Not many can carry off a story told like that,, yet Grey Wolf doesn't an excellent job of it, as the level of character detail and development, make it worth the extra effortβ€”as character development is often what makes the most-enchanting stories.

So I can definitely understand your frustration, yet that's actually one of the FEW SOL stories I still read consistently on SOL. Even with my long-time favorite authors, often one story will appeal to me, while anotherβ€”especially their most recent storiesβ€”just don't interest me in the least.

As always, a favored author is only as good as their latest story.

Replies:   Charro6
Charro6 🚫

@Vincent Berg

I have kept reading VOT also hoping something happens soon.
But I skim through the story only reading about half of each chapter.

Replies:   Vincent Berg
Vincent Berg 🚫

@Charro6

Yeah, in many cases, with those DitL stories, that's about all you can do. Still, the details are so engaging, I'm afraid to skim anything, for fear of losing something significant or just plain beautiful.

Again, it's not so much the author, but the type of story, which is why I've never attempted to write one.

Eddie Davidson 🚫

@Charro6

story where the author is constantly and repetitively telling me what the characters are thinking or feeling.

exactly. stories should just be a constant police blotter of actions without any sort of thoughts or context + designed for people to skim.

lol

there's no pleasing everybody.

tendertouch 🚫

@Marc Nobbs

Some things are an immediate turn-off for me, so I'll never really get into the story β€” 3rd person, present tense, for example.

Leaving off codes that are squicks for me is an immediate stop.

If the story catches my fancy, I can ignore a lot of technical issues β€” homophones, some missing quotation marks and the like. Some put me off more quickly β€” mixing tenses in narrative gets to me pretty quickly. How much of any of it I'm willing to put up with depends on how engaged I am in the story.

Vincent Berg 🚫

@tendertouch

Yep, squick codes are there for a reason, so even if you preserve the surprises in a story, you'd best include them in the individual chapters, even if you have to loudly proclaim it above the chapter.

I'd rather not be disgusted by an otherwise decent story, and if they do it once, then clearly, they feel entitled to do whenever it suits them. So yeah, I'd drop that author like a hot potato then and there, likely never reading another story, no matter the premise or topic.

There are always ways of conveying any idea, and 'shock and disgust' is rarely beneficial in the long run. Yet for many, that's their whole stock and trade. :(

tendertouch 🚫

@tendertouch

If the story catches my fancy, I can ignore a lot of technical issues

I'm just rereading one of those stories that has so many errors, but, for some reason, I still like it (and hope it continues!)

Yoron's Adam's Own

I'm not entirely sure why the story is so compelling to me, but it is, and I'm willing to wade through all of the errors to get to enjoy it.

ystokes 🚫

@Marc Nobbs

One of my turn-offs is how technical they get. If it takes 2-3 paragraphs to describe how much pressure something can withstand has lost me. One reason I don't read much sy-fi.

Switch Blayde 🚫

@ystokes

One of my turn-offs is how technical they get.

When I was a kid, I loved SciFi movies. Today, I avoid them. Why? Because today they're filled with all that technical crap. Just beam Scotty up. Don't tell me how it works.

Replies:   Vincent Berg
Vincent Berg 🚫

@Switch Blayde

And why do you think published sci-fi stories are SO much longer than every other genre's novels? Because, to even comprehend the story, you need the underlying relevant details.

So, it's fine to hate the entire genre, yet there's also a very specific reason for the genre's long-established standards. Not every story is an action-adventure, and not every romance is based on an overly simplistic three-way romance/jealousy complication. Variance is the spice of life, so learn to use it in the proper moderations, otherwise it'll be utterly inedible!

Vincent Berg 🚫

@ystokes

Yeah, I tend to write fairly dense stories (complex sentences and complex, intricate plots), yet I always vary it, adjusting the pacing so keep the readers engaged. I'm reading a currently posting story, where the author belabors each and every point, never once adjusting it based on the story content. Thus his story are SO thick, you need a hatchet to make it through each damn paragraph.

The worst part, is that many of his descriptions, covering things I first used myself (like 'gravity plates' in sci-fi sagas), as previously, NO ONE ever even mentioned internal gravity in most space sagas. So he picked up some of my techniques, yet never noticed others.

Thus, he REALLY needs to learn the value of concise brevity. Details are fine when things need to move slowly, but every single paragraph? No how and no way!

Yet, it too is an engaging story, so as painful as the sheer plodding is, I keep at it, but midway describing a decisive battle on one world, he'll abruptly switch to another character well across the galaxy, with NO relation to them, only to bring up yet another unrelated detail. Aargh!

redthumb 🚫

@Marc Nobbs

I don't stop me from reading a story, but when the author uses non-standard marks and does not state why it gets confusing. I can remember one story there various characters spoke in different languages, he used some non-standard marks like {}, etc. to slow which language way used which he EXPLAINED which was fine.

Grey Wolf 🚫

@Marc Nobbs

Real people use contractions and colloquialisms

In a few cases, there's a reason to override this. I have a character in my current book who uses very few contractions, but she's well-defined as having odd speech patterns by nature. In that case, it adds something to her dialogue for her to not use contractions, since her natural speaking style is 'unnatural.'

If every character did it, it would be awful :) but there are reasons to do something different occasionally.

Trying to write too much 'verisimillitude' into dialogue can go wrong, too. Pauses and 'ers' are good occasionally. If you put them in at the rate real people actually use them, it'll trip people up.

Part of my storytelling assumption is that the first-person narrator is doing their level best to recount what they and others said, but not simultaneously with when it's said (hence the near-omnipresent past tense). Part of that is 'fixing' a lot of 'ers' and 'ums' and so forth, but including the pauses where they matter in understanding how the conversation actually went. They probably fix some of the run-on sentences, too (but not all of them).

But it should still feel like something the character might reasonably have said, not the cleaned-up grammatically perfect version of it.

Replies:   Vincent Berg  Marc Nobbs
Vincent Berg 🚫

@Grey Wolf

Character voices are as vital as the Narrator's and the Author's voice (i.e. their own, unique way of expressing themselves), yet they're certainly not equivalent. Thus, not everyone has a unique voice, as tertiary (3rd-tier) have no need for any voice at all, as they simply don't play a vital role, and thus have an extremely limited speaking role. In short, no on frigging cares how they speak!

The central protagonists and the potential antagonist would, and thus each would have their own, unique voices, yet even here, they're hardly equivilent. The primary protagonist's is the most essentially, and the co-primary protagonist would too, though it again isn't nearly as vital as the protagonist's. And while not every story even has an antagonist, often, the antagonist typically has very little dialogue, aside for the dramatic of scenes, when it would make the biggest differences.

However, anyone who does have a unique speaking voice (ex: Scottish, or some unusual regional background where they're ordinarily have their own speaking style (contractions, possibly, yet more often than not, they wouldn't even structure their sentences the same was English speakers would, even when they're speaking in English).

Thus who has a distinct speaking voice is a very particular thing, some get one by default, yet others, especially if they were all trained to speak English fluently, typically don't merit one. In those cases, it's purely assigned based on their story role.

The simplest of these to understand are leaders and commanders (ex: military personnel, police or anyone in a 'formal', commanding leadership position), as they inevitable speak in a strictly formal manner, not colloquially. They can speak anyway they want in their private lives, yet while 'on duty', they're typically quite formalβ€”even if they speak with a heavy accept (think of the typical American cop, whatever country they originally come from, their command voice is often completely different than their normal speaking voice, just as a scolding mother of a Mother Superior's.

Thus, for those, forget ALL those damn contractions, as the contractions diminishes their authority, as order as meant to be followed to the letter, and there's no room for ANY misunderstanding of those orders.

After all, how many variations of "Get that damn thing out of your mouth this second!" need? She can be as gentle as a lamb once he does, yet while she's in command mode, there is NO brokering allowed! Luckily for most of us, mothers rarely remain in that command mode for long. Yet that's usually not as clearcut with fathers, or even with displeased lovers. If you do the wrong thing, whatever it happens to be, you'll KNOW they're displeased!

Yet to a large degree, for the most vital characters, easily being able to tell the speaker by their 'voice' is essential, just as it for the author's voice, as they way they speak is how you recognize who's speaking in many cases. You'd still use the traditional attributions, just to make sure there's no mistaking it, yet their voice needs to be clearly identifiable, so it 'sounds' like them, and only them.

For novelist's, it's all about recognizing the novelist's voice, no matter what name a particular novel may be published under. As for the best-known authors, that's their Brand, the way readers can identify them, whatever they write. It may take most a long time, which is the whole purpose of pseudonyms, yet those pseudonyms provide them the freedom to explore new story avenues they normally couldn't, because if a romance writer writes a zombie apocalypse story, her most loyal fans would NEVER stand for it. Yet, if it's eventually discovered she actually wrote several other works under a different pseudonym, then EVERYONE accepts that as a given. Only, not right away.

Novelists need the freedom to create, yet they still need that brand, their voice, to ensure ALL their work will be accepted and recognized in their literary canon.

Marc Nobbs 🚫

@Grey Wolf

In a few cases, there's a reason to override this. I have a character in my current book who uses very few contractions, but she's well-defined as having odd speech patterns by nature. In that case, it adds something to her dialogue for her to not use contractions, since her natural speaking style is 'unnatural.'

If every character did it, it would be awful :) but there are reasons to do something different occasionally.

There is an exception to every rule. Choosing to have one character speaking very formally works, because that formality is the character. I had "The Queen" appear in one story, and obviously she spoke "The Queen's English".

Similarly, I have a character who's, like, a very excitable teenage girl, and she, like, speaks in a very annoying way, but it's like, deliberate or whatever, 'cause, like, that's part of her character - she's so sick.

But she's sparingly used, so it works and sets her apart from everyone else. I wouldn't do that for every character because it would get old very quickly.

Pauses and 'ers' are good occasionally. If you put them in at the rate real people actually use them, it'll trip people up.

Agreed. Pauses, used well, are very effective. Pauses use excessively are annoying.

Big Ed Magusson 🚫

@Marc Nobbs

Well, a lot of the comments people have mentioned in this thread are apparent to me on page one, so I bail immediately. I don't know if that counts as bailing after the story's started, though. I'm barely into it. And of course, the description is key to me. If the description tells the whole story, why bother.

No, the thing that will get me to bail quicker than anything is flat characters. If I'm a chapter or two in and "Mary" is still just a name on the page and I don't have any idea what she's like other than maybe big tits and a huge libido, I'm done.

This is a particular problem with large character casts. Mary, Stacy, Janet--okay, they'll all in the orgy, but if they're interchangeable, I'm done.

Related to this, completely unrealistic motivations for characters will get me to bail. The "oh, she saw my big cock and had to have it." No. No one in the real world does this. Even a size queen will flirt and work her way up to sex.

Replies:   Marc Nobbs
Marc Nobbs 🚫

@Big Ed Magusson

I'm with you on all these points.

If Mary, Stacy and Janet are generic characters because they are generic characters for a reason, but the rest of your cast is well formed, that's one thing and could be an interesting storytelling device. But if they are all like that....

akarge 🚫

@Marc Nobbs

All of the above are valid issues for me. (And yes, I love Mist World as well, warts and all)

I may have missed this one as I was just skimming after a while. Multiple speakers, let's say four.
One speaks, a reply, another reply, a dozen replies. BUT no clue as to who is the one speaking at any particular point. Sometimes they will be partially identified. (He said) But there are two or more "HEs".
This often distracts me to the point that I'm not paying attention to WHAT is being said, while I focus upon WHO said it.

doctor_wing_nut 🚫

@Marc Nobbs

I agree with all the spelling and grammar issues already mentioned (then and than are my personal favorites).

For me, it's describing in minute, obsessive detail the shape of an object, or the dimensions of a structure, or (God Forbid) preparing a meal. Writers who want to impress with their compulsive attention to detail can put me right off.

If you want to hold my interest, please allow me to 'color in' some of the details while I read, otherwise your work reads more like an operating manual than a story.

Replies:   Marc Nobbs  Vincent Berg
Marc Nobbs 🚫

@doctor_wing_nut

(then and than are my personal favorites).

Funny you mention those particular two, because I find them really difficult to spot in text without a decent spell/grammar checker flagging it up. I think my brain just compensates and reads what should be there rather than what is there. Happens more often with Then/Than than any other combination.

Replies:   REP  Crumbly Writer
REP 🚫

@Marc Nobbs

I think my brain just compensates and reads what should be there rather than what is there

I believe that not having an editor is one of the reasons I see so many mistakes in some authors' stories. The authors know what they intended to write, therefore the possibility of them reading over an error in what was actually written is very high.

Replies:   Marc Nobbs  Vincent Berg
Marc Nobbs 🚫

@REP

The authors know what they intended to write, therefore the possibility of them reading over an error in what was actually written is very high.

100%

Vincent Berg 🚫

@REP

Eh, for those of us who do multiple revisions of a storyβ€”especially during the editing processβ€”it's equally as common for the editor as it is for the author. Yet, my stories are better, the MORE I trim and revise, as it's more concise, more focused and a much easier read. Plus, I typically cut a solid 20 to 30% of the word count, which also makes it easier and faster to read.

Not everyone puts that much extra effort into their work, yet for me, it's more than worth the extra hours for the more concise text, once all the 'fat' has been trimmed from the text.

Crumbly Writer 🚫

@Marc Nobbs

When I'm typing fast, I frequently misspell "the" as "het". (I blame my think-fingered "man hands". Yet again, I never notice it, having to rely on my editors to catch those dunderheaded typos. As it's easy to read what you expect (from your previous versions of the same text), rather than what's on the page in front of you.

Vincent Berg 🚫

@doctor_wing_nut

Describing the preparation of a meal, especially every meal, is as obnoxious as every DITL description of the 'three S's' (Shit, Shower and Shave). Details is best when it's actually describing something worth focusing on. So rather than describing each step in the cooking process, instead focus on WHY those choices were make, and how they affect the taste (using words like "savory," "aromatic", "mouth-watering" or "tempting", as those are more descriptive of the effects of the preparation, rather then the preparation itself.

However, I've always been a believer in 'The more left unsaid, the better', as imagining what isn't detailed again draws the readers into the story, piecing together those details unnecessary to the underlying story. If it's easily guessed based on the context, then WTF bother mentioning it? Readers, especially avid readers (who purchase the most books) aren't dummies, and they tend to focus on what's not specified. Those adults reading on a fifth-grade level, will NEVER buy many books, as it's a wasted effort.

Again (from another discussion) I'm currently reading an unnamed story, where they describe EVERY SINGLE detail, no matter how irrelevant or when it's necessary to understand in the story. Yet, despite the sheer tedium of so many unnecessary details, I can't STOP reading it. So, there are quality story exemptions, where we're still ANNOYED, yet if the story is compelling, we're NOT going to stop reading it. Though again, what you're willing to suffer through is typically different for every genre, sub-genre, topic and themes.

Replies:   Marius-6
Marius-6 🚫

@Vincent Berg

Describing the preparation of a meal... Details (are) best when it's actually describing something worth focusing on. So rather than describing each step in the cooking process, instead focus on WHY those choices were make, and how they affect the taste (using words like "savory," "aromatic", "mouth-watering" or "tempting", as those are more descriptive of the effects of the preparation, rather then the preparation itself.

I agree with the (part I edited out) about describing every meal.

However, particularly due to having to treat too many meals as "Fuel" and/or the hasty "Eat Now! taste later..." gobbling of "fud" all too often; I try to enjoy as many meals as possible.

This often includes the description of the the preparation of a meal (or an occasional meal preparation).

As mentioned by VB, almost anything is better when it is well written.

Sometimes a bit of descriptive text may add to story, or character, development. Sometimes it is enough to write. Mrs. Beaverly brewed a pot of tea, then sat down to enjoy it. But what started as a throw away line: "Tea. Earl Grey. Hot." Became a notable characteristic for Captain Picard.

Some foods, their preparation, and consumption, have "romantic" connotations; such as oysters, or chocolate covered strawberries πŸ˜‹ (but Not chocolate covered oysters πŸ˜„)

Other foods, such as "cabbage patch soup" or chicken and dumplings, are "comfort foods" thus describing the meal, and even its preparation, may be important to the story. Such as having a stoic male character preparing a meal of comfort foods, and taking efforts to get it just right, for another character who has survived a traumatic event. It would Show that the character is compationate, and has heretofore unrealized domestic skills, rather than telling. By showing, the character doesn't speak, either to another character, nor do they have an internal monolog to the reader. Thus the character remains a "strong, silent" type 🀫 whilst demonstrating a "softer" aspect by their actions.

Sometimes it may be sufficient to state: Robert sat and watched TV while drinking a beer 🍺 ...however, it is an opportunity to develop a character by specifying if they are drinking a "Bud" (Budweiser is one of the most purchased beers in the USA) or a Schlitz (notoriously cheap beer), or a microbrew, or a Guinness, etc. 🍻

Perhaps it could be hinted that a character, established to be a millionaire, has working-class roots, by drinking a Bud or a Schlitz, or he is just a cheapskate. Or a character, down on his luck, might nurse a single schooner of a microbrew, rather than several cheap beers. There need not be a reveal in this scene, or even the chapter. Instead, sometime later in the story, the food(s) or beverages, could be among the clues of a later reveal in a story.

I have friends, both male and female, some who are costumers, who sometimes mention details of clothing, that often provide clues to a character.

As with everything, if it is written well then many subjects may enrich the story. In subtle details, or even as a major plot point.

In the movie Blade Runner, the varieties of different ethnic foods, established part of the tone of the movie (more so in the early 1980's). Another example, I forget the name of the movie; it starts with a bank robbery, and there are several law enforcement officers in a diner across the street. It is halfway through the movie that we learn that the protagonists had put considerable research into finding a bank in a small town with a diner across the street where it was nearly certain there would be law enforcement officers present. This puts in context a seemingly "throw away" conversation about food preparation early in the movie. It is an interesting twist, and is one of several clues that the MCs take significant efforts to prepare their plans. Or the apples 🍎 of Captain Barbosa in the Pirates of the Caribbean franchise.

I am not saying that Vincent Berg is wrong. There are situations where some writes go on in excruciating detail. Hello Tom Clancy. But, if well written, significant details to some otherwise "trivial" details, may contribute to the character(s) or plot(s).

Replies:   awnlee jawking  irvmull
awnlee jawking 🚫

@Marius-6

I have friends, both male and female, some who are costumers, who sometimes mention details of clothing, that often provide clues to a character.

I find it jarring when young adults are described as dressing up for a date but the clothes the author chooses, particularly for the girls, are colour combinations totally absent from current fashion pages. You'd have to go back to 1960s schoolwear catalogues to find anyone wearing those combination, and even then it wasn't through choice.

AJ

Replies:   Marius-6
Marius-6 🚫

@awnlee jawking

I find it jarring when young adults are described as dressing up for a date but the clothes the author chooses, particularly for the girls, are colour combinations totally absent from current fashion pages. You'd have to go back to 1960s schoolwear catalogues to find anyone wearing those combination, and even then it wasn't through choice.

My personal sartorial choices wouldn't be a typical standard. With some particular exceptions. Exceptions besides military garb, that has the guidance of AR-670-1.

For current fashion matters I seek advice from people who know those niches. For example, in one of my stories the MC inherits some money, and to achieve some of his goals, he needs a wardrobe fitting the image it would be beneficial to present. Specifically that of Ranchers, and similar landowners, not younger (20's and 30's) people in business who dress in "Urban Chic" (understanding there are differences between Denver, Chicago, NYC, or LA; as well as some shared trends). Among the reasons I set my story near Denver, is I have some friends and relatives near there, they directed me to a particular Men's ware establishment that caters to "gentlemen" who are "gentlemen Equestrians" their website provided useful information, that my contacts confirmed was fashionable at particular locations frequented by people similar to my characters.

For teen characters, a stroll in a couple of malls, observing both what is in the trendy stores, and what teens are actually wearing, is a practical source.

Sitting in a coffee shop β˜• taking notes, and people watching, is a great method to conduct research. I can take the bus to locations near the Courthouse, or Microsoft campus, or Amazon, several universities, or even some "rough neighborhoods" or Uwajimaia for various Asian fashions.

Replies:   awnlee jawking
awnlee jawking 🚫

@Marius-6

Now that's the right way to do research!

AJ

irvmull 🚫

@Marius-6

(but Not chocolate covered oysters πŸ˜„)

So that's what I've been doing wrong!

LupusDei 🚫
Updated:

@Marc Nobbs

I very rarely stop reading something I had got into far enough, even if I'm actively angry with myself for continuing. A kind of addictive mechanic, perhaps. Rare cases I indeed do, it's because the story "petter out" or perhaps more accurately my interest in it does. More easily and thus likely with ongoing series, I may just never look for the next chapter. Sometimes I may skip forward, if that's an option.

In physical bookstores, it's an annoying habit of me to open the book in the middle first, and start reading, and sometimes reach the end before I'm paused enough to skip to the beginning, then feeling guilty for not buying the already read book...

While most of the thread above focuses on the grammar and representation, that usually doesn't bother me at all. Possibly, for me myself being non-English and thus already having to invest significant mental energy to decipher content; it plausibly might be more annoying in native language, I admit, although can't really confirm that either.

(Haven't read all that much self-published amateur content in my native language; while a "conceptual poetry" book that consisted by 3/4 of increasingly silly and nonsensical disclaimers and then did things like wrapping a line around the outer edge of the physical page... for no apparent reason, was a bundle of hysterical fun. The beef I have with native news media and the like is different, and out of this context anyhow.)

Indeed, unconventional presentation doesn't bother me either, to an extent (I won't normally even pick up, say, second person narrative experiments, leaving that out of context here). But say, a pure stream of consciousness with all dialogue retold in same internal voice with hardly any punctuation? No problem. Indeed, I enjoyed one or two stories conceptually written like that very much. Sure, intentionally doing such is something else than accidentally slipping into almost similar by pure negligence... Just saying, complexity of presentation doesn't bother me as long deciphering the content is possible, I can accommodate and adapt to almost anything. Then, indeed, I can apparently boast about reading comprehension above average, so that could be just me.

I don't have any hard squicks either. In right mood I can enjoy extreme content even despite poor or jarring presentation that often accompanies examples I have encountered. I'm not taken out even ambushed by something totally unexpected if it makes sense, and perhaps even if doesn't.

However, I do have a few "soft squicks" namely, spanking and blowjobs, and humiliation for the sake of it. If the story appears to be going into decaying orbit around a black hole singularity of one of these specifically, I may indeed quit. There's a temptation to generalize it to any one narrow aspect, but I'm afraid it's not the case with some of my kinks (like public nudity) where I would forgive almost anything, even the above (with often, to my great dismay, are indeed mixed together heavily).

There's another, seemingly, but not necessary specific to erotic content, mode of failure to retain my interest by failure to manage (sexual) escalation. I mean, where the story reach the (erotic, to me) apex way before the dramatic, or just way too early, period. All while I know, I'm very much guilty of just that in my own quick fantasies, but for that those are quick and unserious fantasies. While I'm first to insist a dancer keeps dancing after getting naked, and there's in principle nothing wrong in starting a story right there (according to the principle of starting a story as close to the end as possible), the management of escalation is getting increasingly difficult the faster we go, the perceived pressure to go way out past the limits of reasonable is strong, and very often that's a failure point that takes me out of the story very quickly, just when it got going, especially if it's abundantly clear it's going to be a single kink wank from there on and that's kink not mine. To say, I'm not at all so interested in endless descriptions of sex as such.

There's possibly a way to generalize above beyond the erotic. Say, I can easily imagine a "rags to riches" story that gets boring right after first couple thousands earned by the unstoppable money machine protagonist. One may say, the overpowered protagonist is to blame.

Indeed, there was a mage story where there was a well foreshadowed and set up story arc with plenty of interesting and inevitable complications, and then, the protagonist suddenly and accidentally ascended to practical godhood in the middle of an epic figh with equal demigods who come out of nowhere... With no obvious way to salvage the initial storyline it was left unfinished, no surprise, author interest had ended right before mine might have anyway (probably right about, considering what likely was left unpublished and even more unwritten).

However, it's not impossible to salvage and continue even such in interesting ways. In the mage example, it could shift focus on the ongoing merger of magic dimensions and subsequent invasion of the third, all while trying to get along with the unconditional family situation in the mundane world; there even was a plausible way to contain his emergent god-like powers to specific conditions and thus not apply to other aspects or ordinary people, it even could be mighty frustrating for the protagonist and a story arc in own right. Just requiring way much complexity and imagination, perhaps. (I even corresponded with the author; they talked about rewriting last couple of chapters to tone it down instead, but to best of my knowledge, haven't.)

What I'm likely attempting to say, if an author writes themselves in a corner that destroys the story, but then they instead ignore it and keep milling around as if nothing had happened, it's likely to become very boring very fast, and it happens way more often and easier in erotic content and aspects than perhaps others, masquerading easily under sheer veneer of wish fulfillment.

And blatantly peddled wish fulfillment just isn't very interesting without any groundwork and plausible contextual dynamics unless, perhaps, the wishes align perfectly, and even then its not guaranteed to be very satisfying.

Marc Nobbs 🚫

@LupusDei

That is one of the most comprehensive and interesting responses to any post I've seen on SOL in a long time.

Thank you.

Marc Nobbs 🚫

@LupusDei

To say, I'm not at all so interested in endless descriptions of sex as such.

This...

There is a very popular series on here which I think is narratively very strong, has good characterisation (for the most part) and good dialogue.

But good, God does it consistently overdo it with the sex. So many unnecessary and overly detailed sex scenes throughout the series. I'm convinced you could cut over half of them out and the story would be stronger for it. I found myself skimming most of the sex so I could get back to the plot. I couldn't just skip all of them either, because some of the sex scenes were important to the plot, containing essential plot points or character beats, which is what a good sex scene should do, IMO. It's just that in this case, far too many of them didn't have either.

Vincent Berg 🚫

@LupusDei

In most cases, the longer the story (novel to saga lengths), the further into the story, the more distracting side issues, as at that point, they're often more focused on side plots or 'yet more' character development, which often helps the story, yet if you're uninterested in such things, are merely tedious, not enriching.

However, in most cases, when a story 'peters-out' like that, it's because the authors have never PLANNED the ending, so the story peter's out, as the author's initial material does. Nothing kills a decent book than an unsatisfying ending, and I've thrown more novels again more walls as a result!

If you run out of ideas, then DON'T bother trying to 'fudge' the ending, as that's almost guaranteed to keep the reader from reading any more of you half-assed efforts. (JUPO)

Eddie Davidson 🚫
Updated:

@Marc Nobbs

I thought this thread initially was as an author - what kills your motivation to write.

The main reason for me is that when I lose inspiration - I put it aside until it comes back. I try to finish the story entirely before publishing but recently I broke my own rule of thumb.

The other is just nearing the ending - getting the plane off the ground and keeping it in the air is fun. I know how the story ends and writing the conclusion is hard. It's hard to say goodbye and it's boring because all the exploration is over and now it's time to wrap up. The surprises are all gone - and we are landing. It's the least creative point in the process for me.

I think also seeing early voting on chapter one when you have a 50+ chapter story or nasty comments before they've had a chance to really give it a chance.

Emails from people who are also angry it's taking me time to complete - that don't understand real world priorities sometimes take precedent.

Emails from people angry that I continued a different story rather than one that was in progress - I tend to put away a story.

As to other authors stories, as said earlier 3rd person in general tends to be a turn off. I like to hear it in the head of the storyteller, but I can manage it if I assume SOMEONE is that third person and they know what happened.

A story that's implausible is really the only other killer. Usually, I choose relatable stories along my own interests, aligning to codes I enjoy or simply from the blurb or because it was reviewed well.

I don't mind if there are aggressive women that like sex in my stories at all - but if ALL of them are and the men are all the ones who are trying to cross their legs and avoid sex - that's a shitty story to me.

If the author writes all women as "basically men with boobs" that's a no from me, dog.

It's rare I abandon the story. I try to read as much as I write (as a rule of thumb) but sometimes there isn't enough new stuff out there to maintain that ratio.

I also try to read the catalog of an author that I noticed and go back to older stories.

If the story "jumps the shark" - in terms of suddenly all the girls are acting inconsistent with what I think they'd do in that situation, or outcomes just don't seem to make sense - I tend to give up.

Endless melodrama - a good example is NIS stories. I don't mind dialogue at all - don't get me wrong. If all it is was Degrassi Junior High type situation you might see on a Disney show, except everyone is naked and the NIS is window dressing for a rom com, I roll eyes and move on.

I never leave nasty gram or contat author to tell them they suck. If I leave any feedback it's always an attempt to be constructive and an investment/hope for future stories.

Someone said details turn them off - I can deal with details. What I can't deal with is a police blotter passing as a story.

"This happened, then that happened then he bent over, then I just sucked his dick" - a collection of actions and an almost summary form. It's the like the author is being charged 50 cents for each wordthey type so they are trying to tell the story with an economy of words.

Take your time, let me smell the smells, see the sighs, and be there in the moment.

I would say the only other thing is Mary Sue/Wish fulfillment, which is a flavor of the story outcomes just not making sense.

A character (pretty obvious alter ego of the author) who everybody loves, wants to be, no challenges, does everything great - basically Olympic level athlete, handsome, with more wealth that they can ever spend and more on the way.

There was an old TV show starring Mickey Rooney that I used to watch as a kid. He was so annoying to me because nothing was a challenge. Everything worked out for him and his biggest problem was which hot girl he was taking to the dance, every guy envied him, etc.

Insufferable asshole who doesn't have to try, gets everything handed to him and has no problems - no fun to me.

Replies:   Marc Nobbs  Vincent Berg
Marc Nobbs 🚫

@Eddie Davidson

The other is just nearing the ending - getting the plane off the ground and keeping it in the air is fun. I know how the story ends and writing the conclusion is hard. It's hard to say goodbye and it's boring because all the exploration is over and now it's time to wrap up. The surprises are all gone - and we are landing. It's the least creative point in the process for me.

See, now I'm the opposite when it comes to endings. I stress over them and want to get them "right". Few things, as an author, are as gratifying as crafting a truly satisfying ending - mainly because it's so hard to do and so rarely do you really "get it right".

Replies:   Eddie Davidson
Eddie Davidson 🚫

@Marc Nobbs

Don't get me wrong. I stress over the landing and I tried to get it right.

it's just my least favorite part of the story and the point when I might give up on finishing it. a great example is a Christmas story I was writing.

when everything was new and he was trying to figure out what was going on at his parents annual sex party, it was fun to write. when they were playing kissing games and pin the tail on the donkey but the girls were donkeys, it was fun.

The final chapter took me months to finally publish because I lost interest due to the fact that I didn't want to really end the story + Christmas had long since passed and I no longer felt inspired.

so I've got tons of stories on my hard drive that just lack an ending

Vincent Berg 🚫

@Eddie Davidson

As always, muses are often the cruelest bitches, as once they get bored with the story, there's no sense continuing. Though, yet again, that's systematic of other, more deeply rooted story issues (ex: overplaying a particular scene at the expense of saving the material for later) or ignoring problematic issues entirely until the whole story crawls to a knuckle-dragging level. It happens too often to be purely an accident.

Kidder74 🚫

@Marc Nobbs

I have a few that have already been mentioned.

Extremely bad punctuation - I get the occasional error. Hey, nobody's perfect. But when it's a constant issue, it just keeps bringing me back out of the story and into the real world. The worst are when people think they need to use a comma after every couple of words. Those, and misplaced commas, are really jarring for me. Start and stop quotation marks, too, or the lack thereof. Either misplaced in a sentence or when there's only one or the other (a start but not stop, or a stop but no start).

To a lesser extent, italics. Now, hear me out... I'm all for italics being used, where appropriate. What drives me batty is when someone starts an italic sentence or paragraph and then forgets to stop it and it runs through the end of the page or chapter. Again, jarring, and keeps me from maximum enjoyment.

If the author gets a little too holier-than-thou on some subjects. I recall reading a story a few years ago where they had to instruct us on the proper way to eat sushi and mix our soy sauce and wasabi. Repeatedly. Or technical issues where a supposed green beret or Navy SEAL repeatedly names his weapon parts incorrectly (no, there are no ammo clips in your Glock, S&W, or Sig handguns, nor in an AK or AR platform, unless you're talking about a retention device keeping the weapon together).

Repeated spelling mistakes, or homonym issues. One or two, hey, we all make 'em. Repeatedly telling me the door's lock is lose instead of loose, or telling me the lossing team really sucked tonight isn't good.

Formal spoken text. With a few exceptions, we use contractions a lot when speaking. A great exception to that, and it was clearly explained, was in some old Battletech novels (yeah, I'm dating myself a bit, and Nerd alert!, plus it's been years since I've pulled one out and read one so if I'm not completely accurate on who it was, sorry). The high-born Clan didn't use contractions in their spoken words as contractions were beneath them and a signifier that someone was of the lower castes.

Finally, blatant mis-categorizing of a story. Minor things are fine, especially if it's an aside or a description of something happening off-screen. If I'm reading a standard M/F story and all of a sudden I find out they're brother/sister or other familial variant, and I wasn't looking to read that, doneski. But, I generally won't not read a story just because of a specific tag listed, either. My biggest example is always Dance of a Lifetime. The M/M scene is a very small part, but plays an important role in the story. If you've skipped over DoaL just because of that tag, you're seriously missing out. The author also forewarns of it at the beginning of the chapter so you can skip over it if needed.

Replies:   Vincent Berg
Vincent Berg 🚫

@Kidder74

For me, as long as it's minor to the total story, I generally don't mind those unlabeled elements, as long as they DON'T overplay them and drone on and on about a subject I have NO desire to read. Yet even then, I prefer, at the very least, a top of the chapter notice that there's "potentially objectionable content" is enough for me to skip over ANY minor segment I'm uninterested in. Yet that's typically the point when they first add that 'minor' story element to a story, as it's part and parcel of a 'giveaway', surprise story twist.

The Outsider 🚫
Updated:

@Marc Nobbs

I had an idea for a new story, but got hung up on finding the main conflict. I also didn't post stories until they were done...

Replies:   Vincent Berg
Vincent Berg 🚫

@The Outsider

Actually, that's always been my main skill in writing, as one of the first things I write IS the main story conflict, both internal and external, even before I bother naming the main characters, as those are two sides of the same coin. Then I keep that story conflict description near me the entire time I'm writing, so that anytime the story starts to drift, or a separate story 'thread' never pans out, I'll immediately know and can cut the entire passage or thread out whole and toss it.

So, anytime you have that particular issue, float it past me (via PM) and I'll help you better define and clarify it, as it is my raison de etre, after all!

samuelmichaels 🚫
Updated:

@Marc Nobbs

Assuming the story is readable (and that's implied in the OP), the most likely issue is the "eight deadly words":
I don't care what happens to these people.

I can tolerate a lot of flaws if I want to spend time with the main character(s).

The Outsider 🚫

@Marc Nobbs

Repetitiveness, and that the story goes on and on.

I've read plenty of long stories that sometimes get repetitive, but what really frosts me is when I start a long story and it's unfinished. If it's listed as unfinished, then I won't read it.

That is why I finished my stories offline, then posted them.

irvmull 🚫

@Marc Nobbs

When a writer can't decide whether to write in 1st person or 3rd person, so he alternates several times within one paragraph or even one sentence.

Something like:

"Shirley was all alone in the house. She poured herself a cup of coffee and stirred in some sugar. I sipped the coffee and wondered what I should wear to work today..."

There are a few writers on SOL who do this sort of thing. Distracting doesn't begin to describe it.

Replies:   helmut_meukel
helmut_meukel 🚫

@irvmull

When a writer can't decide whether to write in 1st person or 3rd person, so he alternates several times within one paragraph or even one sentence.

I've read some stories like this. If it happens too often I stop reading the story.
But I've encountered a few where it seemed (to me) the author had started in 1st person, later decided 3rd person would fit better, switched to 3rd person and tried – not quite successfully – to change the already written parts.
So these alternations only happen in the first few chapters, none later on.

HM.

Replies:   irvmull
irvmull 🚫

@helmut_meukel

I've read some stories like this. If it happens too often I stop reading the story.
But I've encountered a few where it seemed (to me) the author had started in 1st person, later decided 3rd person would fit better, switched to 3rd person and tried – not quite successfully – to change the already written parts.
So these alternations only happen in the first few chapters, none later on.

No doubt that happens.
However, it is a problem easily solved.
The writer could read his story before posting.

Replies:   tendertouch
tendertouch 🚫

@irvmull

No doubt that happens.
However, it is a problem easily solved.
The writer could read his story before posting.

Honestly, probably better to have someone else read it. At least for me, it's amazingly easy to read what I intended to write instead of what I actually wrote.

BrandonInOhio 🚫
Updated:

@Marc Nobbs

*I generally give long serials at least half a book. Things that turn me off is if there isn't a lot of time spent early doing world building and really introducing a few characters in depth. A lot of times it feels like people try to introduce way too much, way too fast.

*This one is 100% my fault, but I now always research to see if a series is ongoing, completed or abandoned. If the author hasn't posted in 10+ years I tend to avoid if reviews indicate a huge cliffhanger. Jonas's 2 book series was amazing and I was crushed to not see any resolution and knowing it will never be finished. Jay Cantrell's unending nights is another. I'm glad I read them, but am saddened that it was never returned to.

*I've only ever given up on one series, in the middle of the final book. It was done by a polific writer here, who's work I greatly enjoy. The first two books were stunning. The third book to me just felt like it ran into a brick wall. Tried to do too much, fell away from the core story too hard, and seemed to focus on everything but the main story. I tried reading 5 or so chapters then taking a break before going back in for more. In the end I gave up. Ive loved every other book by this author. I love watching things evolve, but I think losing focus of the true core can push people away.

*Finally, if a fantastic story and group of characters eventually falls into a continuous vignette of stroke stories with a tiny bit of plot between them, I tend to move on.

This site has some absolutely INCREDIBLE writers, and I've completed probably 95+% of the books I've started. This is my primary source of reading, and I'll 100% admit that I'm here more for the plots and characters than the erotica aspects. This posts also shows that I am absolutely not a writer, merely a reader, but a passionate one. To you writers, I salute you!

irvmull 🚫

@Marc Nobbs

Scatology (without coding it as such)
Examples from a quick SOL search:

sliding my hands around her waste...
her skirt was up around her waste.
towel around her waste
Her blouse is tied around her waste ...
I put my left arm around her waste and held her close
hands wrapped around her waste
and had her towel wrapped around her waste
put his hands around her waste and kissed her
gold chain that went around her waste
her dress and bunched it around her waste
strings tied in a bow around her waste
removed the gold chain from around her waste
her cotton nightie in a bundle around her waste
her skirt was pulled up around her waste...

Need I go on? There are more!

Replies:   rustyken
rustyken 🚫

@irvmull

Looks to me like the author misspelled the word, cause other wise it doesn't make a whole lot of sense.

irvmull 🚫

@Marc Nobbs

Looks to me like the author misspelled the word, cause other wise it doesn't make a whole lot of sense.

Well,yeah. It shows prospective readers that the author didn't care enough about his work to bother correcting errors which are probably the fault of spellchecker software.
If the author didn't think the story was worth that small amount of trouble, why would a reader expect it to be worth their time to read?

Same goes for:

a bowel of cereal
like it were a bowel of milk
a few minutes later he had a bowel of warm water
a hot carafe of coffee, a bowel of sugar
He pointed to a bowel of white balls
grabbed a bowel of cereal
a bowel of hot soapy water
he came out with a bowel of strawberries
etc..

And yes, some of that sounds like another kind of fetish, doesn't it?
Or maybe haggis...

Replies:   AmigaClone  Pixy
AmigaClone 🚫

@irvmull

Like the previous example the one you just gave might demonstrate a case of reading what you expect to see, not what is actually there.

I will agree the author would have benefited from having another set of eyes go over the story before posting.

Pixy 🚫

@irvmull

Or maybe haggis...

Nowt wrong with haggis. It's nice battered or with a plum sauce. And an orange sauce for that matter....

hambarca12 🚫
Updated:

@Marc Nobbs

I am a simple person. I think key is there has to be someone I like or with whom I can identify. I will always remember "Kenny in Kansas" years ago which defeated me because I could not find a single redeemable character in the story.

As to the grammatical - for me its a "straw that breaks the camel's back situation". I get annoyed at poor editing, the misuse of tenses, or the overused aside/sub-reference, but so long as its not more than one or two of these things, then I can usually hang in on a story.

Pixy 🚫

@Marc Nobbs

I love Terry Pratchett and have almost all his books. I say 'almost' because I did buy 'Nation' and what a horrible book that was. I had to force myself to read it on the premise that it would get better.

It didn't.

Once the last page was turned, I put it in the bin to save myself the pain of trying to read it again.

I couldn't understand how someone so funny and intelligent, could write something so reprehensible with characters that grated. I think shortly after, his Alzheimers was made public knowledge and Nation made sense. Sort off.

REP 🚫

You don't understand. In the story the dialog would appear as"

Hi, Tom. Where are you going?

Down to the 5 and 10 store, Joe.

Mind if I tag along?

Not at all.

etc.

Marc Nobbs 🚫

That's like Americans not understanding British text because of the reverse quote order (the predominant quote isβ€”or was, at one timeβ€”single quotes and the secondary quote (the quotes within quotes) are the traditional American double quotes.

This really threw me because I'm British (50yo) and was taught at school that you use double quotes for speech. And I've got two kids, currently 13 and 19 and they were taught the same thing.

So I checked, and yes, that is still how it's taught in schools.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/bitesize/articles/ztcp97h

But...

Apparently, that's not the current convention in British novels. I just never noticed.

https://blackcatedit.com/2020/07/31/fiction-essentials-how-to-punctuate-dialogue/

How have I been reading books for 40-odd years and never noticed that the speech is not presented the way I was always taught it should be?

Replies:   tendertouch
tendertouch 🚫

@Marc Nobbs

How have I been reading books for 40-odd years and never noticed that the speech is not presented the way I was always taught it should be?

It's easy to miss as our mind figures out what's going on and sees it in the way it was intended. I probably first read LoTR almost 50 years ago, but only recently noticed that the quote marks were different. Checking back through the editions I have, they all use the same system.

Replies:   Marc Nobbs
Marc Nobbs 🚫

@tendertouch

It's easy to miss as our mind figures out what's going on and sees it in the way it was intended. I probably first read LoTR almost 50 years ago, but only recently noticed that the quote marks were different. Checking back through the editions I have, they all use the same system.

Makes you realise just how remarkable the human brain actually is.

I would ask why publishers would choose to do this, but I'm just going to go ahead and assume it's a cost thing. How much ink (and so money) has been saved by using single quotes instead of double? Not just across one book, but hundreds of millions of printed copies of books down the years. That has to be the ultimate reason for doing it.

REP 🚫
Updated:

Seriously? What part of "dialogue" do you not comprehend? Besides, I was discussing the role of narrator, which is completely different than standard dialogue, as it's NARRATION

Go back to my post about dialog that you responded to with you post about narrator and narration. Why were you ranting about narration in response to a post about dialog?

Are you oblivious to the fact that the example of the way the author I mentioned wrote and punctuated his dialogue has no quotation marks?

REP 🚫

I understand for I have a problem with remembering all of the discussion's branches that develop in a Forum thread. At times, all posters respond in what may be an improper manner due to a misunderstanding or some other reason.

When a thread reaches about 25-30 posts, I usually lose interest in and stop participating in the thread because the discussion has gone off-topic.

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