I have rated a handful of stories with a score of 10 (most amazing story). All of those were between 8.0 and 8.9. Only one of my favorites was rated 9.4, (Three Square Meals).
Does anyone know of any stories above 9.5 to 10.0?
I have rated a handful of stories with a score of 10 (most amazing story). All of those were between 8.0 and 8.9. Only one of my favorites was rated 9.4, (Three Square Meals).
Does anyone know of any stories above 9.5 to 10.0?
Does anyone know of any stories above 9.5 to 10.0?
I believe there is only one:
https://storiesonline.net/s/46291/greenies
It's rated 9.56.
The scoring system with its reversion to mean makes it almost impossible to score above 9.4. Possible, but highly unlikely.
Note: There's one higher rated, but it's incomplete:
https://storiesonline.net/s/15981/wolves-and-dragons-of-the-blood-revelations
is rated 9.65
The highest ranked story is 9.65
https://storiesonline.net/s/15981/wolves-and-dragons-of-the-blood-revelations
Two other stories above 9.4
https://storiesonline.net/s/46291/greenies
and
https://storiesonline.net/s/43111/ed-biggers
Al Steiner's Greenies is the only one that comes to mind that's over 9.5
The reason is, years ago, any story with a score under 8.9 was basically bad, and most times people wouldn't read anything that got less than 9.6
There's no way that that many stories deserve such high scores, so scores were effectively normalized to make them more rational. The problem was, people would vote '10' if a story was any good at all.
There's maybe a couple dozen stories on SOL that deserve a '10'. Mostly written by Al Steiner, Don Lockwood, or Lazlo Zalezac.
A related question: Do you attend more to the score or the comments? The latest chapter of my story, drew several negative comments, but the story's score has remained stable. The reversion to the mean might account for the stability of the score, but I would also expect the negative commenters also voted low on the score, so I'm not sure how I should judge the matter.
Negative commenters probably aren't going to vote too far below a '5'.
Really, there's very few things that would get me to vote much below that. Not including a code that really should've been, or having spliced the output of a speech to text program with a random character generator, or simple stream of consciousness writing in something other than a post structuralist style story...
I never vote based on comments. I make my own opinions. I have read stories that had many derogatory comments that I though were acceptable stories and I gave a score of 5 or above. So I never let other's opinions affect my vote.
A score is determined mostly on the first one. If you get a crappy first score all of the rest will hover around it. I read a story with a 7.97 and had to give it a 10 just to make it increase by 0.01. My original score of 6 didn't change the score at all. So whatever score you get from the first reader to vote is pretty much what you're stuck with.
I don't vote based on comments either. Usually I'll vote before reading the comments. And then when I'm reading the comments, it's usually with an eye toward whether someone already said something I want to say. If not, then I'll leave a comment.
The current scoring system works very good with people like me: I only vote if I reach the end of the story and that generally means it's at least 7, mostly 8 and up. The result is that people like me only vote 'high'. This is mainly because you can't vote until the end of the story, changing that would also screw with the current algorithm. Personally I think it's fair that I don't vote on stories that I quit reading: most likely I misinterpreted the codes and description before starting to read. Even if the codes and/or description were incorrect it's not fair to judge a story on that alone and not the story itself.
On the other hand there are the 1-bomb readers who seem to be only out there to kill off high scores, not actually scoring what a story is worth to them.
Personally I think it's fair that I don't vote on stories that I quit reading: most likely I misinterpreted the codes and description before starting to read.
I used to believe that I shouldn't score a story I didn't finish. What happens if it has the greatest ending you ever read? That wouldn't be fair to the author.
However, that relates to the story. There are reasons to stop reading that allow for a vote even if you don't finish it. Let's say the story is written so poorly you struggle to read it. Let's say the story is so boringly written that your eyes keep closing.
I saw a movie the other day about the college football player the Burlsworth Trophy is named after. At the end, my wife and I both said, "That could have been a great movie." And we didn't have to watch it to the end to know that. So the story was great, but the telling of it sucked. Sometimes you realize that early on.
And really, if people would step up and vote on the truly bad stories, it would actually result in higher scores for the better stories, since the raw average vote would already be lower so the great stories' votes wouldn't be adjusted down as far.
And really, if people would step up and vote on the truly bad stories, it would actually result in higher scores for the better stories, since the raw average vote would already be lower so the great stories' votes wouldn't be adjusted down as far.
That... is so true. I never saw it in that way. Maybe I have to re-evaluate my way of voting only for what I completed reading.
Maybe I have to re-evaluate my way of voting only for what I completed reading.
As long as you take into account why you stopped reading. For example, if the subject matter isn't your thing and you didn't realize it so you stopped reading, that's no reason to score a story low.
For example, if the subject matter isn't your thing and you didn't realize it so you stopped reading, that's no reason to score a story low.
If you weren't aware before reading that you weren't into the type of subject matter the codes indicate, this is true. If the codes were left off, a low vote is deserved for improper coding.
If the codes were left off, a low vote is deserved for improper coding.
I've been clear on my opinion on that. I guess I'm a more tolerant reader.
There are reasons for leaving out a code. For one, not to ruin a surprise. I'd lean toward making the story enjoyable with a surprise than worry about a 1-vote because the code has been left out. For me, the reader's enjoyment trumps score. Or because you don't think the code the reader is complaining about is applicable (e.g., you have non-consent and blackmail, but the reader believes that's rape so he's pissed the rape code isn't there. Can't do anything about that).
I might even read a story with a code I don't like if the description entices me, hoping it's not a big part of the story and the rest of the story is good.
I don't believe the scoring system's intent is to punish authors. It's simply abused for that.
Or because you don't think the code the reader is complaining about is applicable (e.g., you have non-consent and blackmail, but the reader believes that's rape so he's pissed the rape code isn't there. Can't do anything about that).
Exactly.
It also depends on which code. Writing a story that turns on incest or some other "hot" code but failing to list the code really ticks me off, without having to get into whether Act A really qualifies as Code D.
There are reasons for leaving out a code. For one, not to ruin a surprise. I'd lean toward making the story enjoyable with a surprise than worry about a 1-vote because the code has been left out.
I actually quite often leave off codes, but I do add the "caution" one for the times I do. And it is because of what you said, sometimes giving a code will give away part of the story. But other times, I will admit I tend to find them silly.
"Race" for example. I almost never actually say or even imply the race of my main characters. So unless I say something specific, it really does not matter at all. See them as white, as black, as Asian, see them how you like. Heck, more than a few of my characters in one story have been American Indians, not even a tag for that one.
Rape I never include, because in the rare instances I do use it or anything even like it, it is not done for sexual gratification of the reader. It is something I only include because it is important to the character or story, and I will always depict it as a horrible crime against another person.
But I have long ago given up even trying to figure out scores in here, or those that run around giving a story a low score because it simply was not what they wanted.
There are reasons for leaving out a code. For one, not to ruin a surprise.
Again, in practice, most time people want to 'avoid spoiling a surprise" th 'surprise' is ?I gkt you to read content you know you don't like and wouldn't have read if you knew".
But if a writer insists, using the 'caution' tag to warn reades, and being willing to homestly answer "does the story include any of [list of squicks]?" I don't have a raal problem.
But if I know that certain content would cause me to give a story a 1 vote, and a writer tries to trick me into spending my time on his story by not including the tage that would keep me from reading it, how does that not deserve a 1 vote?
It's still a story, so it deserves at least a 2.
They lose points for deceptive behaviour. Thus it's a 1.
a writer tries to trick me into spending my time on his story by not including the tage that would keep me from reading it, how does that not deserve a 1 vote?
Because the writer isn't trying to trick you.
Most of the writers who are writing their version of "The Crying Game" are...
But that aside... if I know content has such little appeal to me that I'd give it a 1, I'm doing writers a favor by not reading their work with that content. If the writer wants to prevent me from being able to avoid wasting my time on his story, he's preventing me from not voting '1' on it.
if I know content has such little appeal to me that I'd give it a 1, I'm doing writers a favor by not reading their work with that content
I agree, and that's why I don't believe the author does it to trick the reader into reading the story. Why would I want someone to read a story I know they won't like?
A long time ago I read that the elements of a short story are:
1. one or two main characters
2. a single event
3. a twist
I started as a short story writer and still love short stories. So I like twists in stories. Giving away a twist ruins the story (like giving away the punchline of a joke).
Is the twist a squick? I wrote a short story where the twist was the "girl" turned out to be a boy. It was a hot M/f story until the end when the reader discovers it's M/m. Now I know "gay" is a squick so that story won't ever be on SOL. But I never knew how much of a squick "cheating" is until people complained.
Do you really think when I write a story I'm worrying about people's squicks? I'm simply trying to tell the best story I can.
If the codes were left off, a low vote is deserved for improper coding.
When I score a story, I pay no attention to the codes. (Just like I pay no attention to the codes in deciding whether to read a story.) The codes are not reliable - because many of the authors follow their own personal interpretations when using (or not using) codes, or don't use a particular code because it would give away too much.
I'll rephrase...
If you left out codes because you rewrote The Crying Game, you'll get a low score because I have no interest in gay stories. If you left out codes because you rewrote Oedipus Rex, I may not realize you did, because I'd possibly have read the story anyway.
And someone who doesn't mind male MCs smoking pole but gets squicked by incest would have the opposite reactions...
Leaving out codes means readers who hate the content you failed to code are perfectly justified in giving really low scores.
For example, if the subject matter isn't your thing and you didn't realize it so you stopped reading, that's no reason to score a story low.
I don't understand the logic of that assertion. If I like strawberries and don't like peaches, shouldn't I give strawberry pie a higher score than peach pie, even if the peach-pie maker is a better baker?
I think the analogy he was going for was, if you're allergic to peaches you shouldn't be judging the quality of a peach pie.
Which is true in some respects. However, if you started to eat what was supposed to be apple pie, but went into anaphylactic shock because it contained peaches, that's a different matter entirely.
And, if you had somehow gone through life lucky enough to never encounter peaches, and had your allergic reaction upon trying them in the pie the first time, you should be able to hold that against it.
I do not check codes before I read a story. I decide whether to read a story on the basis of the description (or sometimes just because it was written by an author whose other stories I've liked.) That is why one of my pet peeves is the lack of an adequate description, and I tend to either ignore or delay reading such stories.
I don't have many squicks - but I do have preferences. I don't like extraneous violence in a story - but oftentimes the violence is an essential ingredient to the telling of the story. To me, the present codes are not very useful because authors do not agree on what codes should be used when. If I run into something I dislike in a story, I can stop reading if it bothers me that much.
When scoring a story, I base the score on whether I liked the story. I don't hold it to some literary standard established by experts. If the author is a good storyteller, if the author makes me care about the characters and care what happens to them, then that story is going to get a high score from me even if the grammar, punctuation and spelling are different from what a dictionary prefers.
I have never given a story less than a "6" rating, in the belief that low scores tend to discourage authors from writing. I'm in favor of more stories, not fewer. Now, I see in this exchange, that my failure to give low scores may actually lower the scores of some stories I like a lot. Maybe I need to rethink whether to give low scores?
I basically look at scores this way: I'm only going to read stories that I expect will appeal to me; if it meets that expectation, great, otherwise it gets ticked down; if the quality of the writing is poor, it may get ticked down one or two points depending on how badly written; finally, the quality of the plot (how much suspension of disbelief is required, how original is the storyline, any major plot holes or inconsistencies) can result in another point or two markdown. If something else caused me to not enjoy the story, it's either uncoded content, or what I consider "kink niche shortcut" writing.
I think people should *HAVE* to leave a comment to the author if they are going to one-bomb the story.
It shouldn't be anonymous. A single 1 bomb can basically tank your score and no matter how many are 7 and above - it seems like can't break 6 points. That's unfair.
Years ago I suggested there be some 'canned feedback' options. Things like "Get a proofreader/editor" or "Is English your next language?" or "More. More! MORE!" or whatever. Just generic comments that could cover a lot of people's sentiments, that they could select from a pulldown menu and send with a single click. This was a idea to spur people to actually sending feedback other than trying to use a score as a way of telling the author something (which would almost invariably get lost in translation).
But I don't see any reason to not allow anonymity. If someone wants to send seriously abusive shite, even that could be anonymous (although I think while writers can choose to block anon feedback, I'd say they should - if the 'canned response' thing were implemented - only be able to block original anon feedback. Then maybe some of them who resist so much would see that their stories really need someone to fix typonyms and incorrect grammar, tenses, and such.
A single 1 bomb can basically tank your score and no matter how many are 7 and above - it seems like can't break 6 points. That's unfair.
The top and bottom 5% of the scores are dropped. So a single 1-bomb will not do that.
The top and bottom 5% of the scores are dropped. So a single 1-bomb will not do that.
I'm so glad to hear this. I know scores don't matter but I can't help paying some attention to them. It's in human nature to compare. My new story has an instant 1-bomb. It feels completely like a troll vote.
My new story has an instant 1-bomb. It feels completely like a troll vote.
It is a troll vote. There are trolls around on this site, lurking under bridges etc, who seem to pounce on any new story being posted and give it a 1 vote. Nobody knows why they do it, except maybe hoping to get some sort of reaction - the motivating force for most internet trolls. Please try to ignore the 1 voter morons and pay attention to the people who actually read your story.
no matter how many are 7 and above - it seems like can't break 6 points
That's the problem. If the average vote was somewhere in the 7-8 range, once the scores get normalized due to all the undeserved 9 and 10 votes, you're lucky to have a '6.1' or whatever.
If you don't want scores to always get adjusted downward, find really bad stories and give them really low scores. The more low scores that are issued, the closer to 'normal' scores will be (compared to now, up to a point, obviously.)
A single 1 bomb can basically tank your score and no matter how many are 7 and above - it seems like can't break 6 points. That's unfair.
The thing is, a '5' has the same effect if it's your lowest score. It cancels out one of your highest scores. So the following sample votes (simplified for this purpose only) are effectively equal in terms of overall score:
1 7 7 7 7 7 7 7 7 7 7 7 7 7 7 7 7 7 7 10
5 7 7 7 7 7 7 7 7 7 7 7 7 7 7 7 7 7 7 8
In these simplified cases, the 1/10 and 5/8 fall away, leaving only 7s, which are then adjusted to revert to mean.
A single 1 bomb can basically tank your score and no matter how many are 7 and above - it seems like can't break 6 points. That's unfair.
I'm not an author, so I've never been on the receiving end of a low score. And as a reader, I've never given a low score either. But, as far as I know, the scores still reflect the relative rankings that readers give stories - it just sort of squeezes them all toward the middle. Right?
it just sort of squeezes them all toward the middle. Right?
More like stretches them.
90+% of stories used to have scores between 9.3 and 9.9
Now, scores actually range over several pointa.
I don't understand the logic of that assertion. If I like strawberries and don't like peaches, shouldn't I give strawberry pie a higher score than peach pie, even if the peach-pie maker is a better baker?
In my opinion, no.
I believe you're rating the quality of the story. Not if it appeals to you. But I don't think that's how Lazeez sees it. When we had the TPA scoring, only the "A" was applied to the score, which was appeal. The technical and plot were ignored in the score.
But that's my opinion. I don't believe it's fair to the author. But I don't think it's fair to readers either. I don't like Fantasy stories. Does that mean I give Harry Potter a 1?
The danger of only using how the story appeals could skew/dictate what kinds of stories are written/posted. For the readers who like them, I guess that's great. But what about readers who like other kinds of stories, the minority readership? There could be scarce stories for them to read. I like diversity. I'm an eclectic writer and reader.
For the readers who like them, I guess that's great. But what about readers who like other kinds of stories, the minority readership?
You are aware of self-selection bias, right?
Most people aren't going to look for stories that they know won't appeal to them in order to vote on them. As long as potential readers can determine in advance if they're likely to find a story appealing or not, the minority can find the stories that will appeal to them, and the majority of the majority will avoid stories that they know won't appeal to them.
And when we lost TPA voting, yeah, I changed my overall score to incorporate all the aspects, but I'm sure many didn't. Hell, when we had TPA, many people just voted the same value across the board. I don't know that I ever had identical scores in all three categories, at least not when I was reviewing.
when we had TPA, many people just voted the same value across the board.
Not many. Most. That's why it went away.
I don't know that I ever had identical scores in all three categories, at least not when I was reviewing.
A quick count of recent reviews showed that when they allocate scores, two-thirds of the time reviewers allocate the same score to 'Appeal' as they do to 'Plot'.
AJ
However, that relates to the story. There are reasons to stop reading that allow for a vote even if you don't finish it. Let's say the story is written so poorly you struggle to read it. Let's say the story is so boringly written that your eyes keep closing.
Like my comment to bk69: true. One more reason I may have to change my way of voting.
Im sorry if this seems strange, but could you do me a favor and review my story so far? Ive gotten alot of views and even a handful of comments, and im hovering around a 7.6 i think right now, but its very difficult to figure out what people are using as measurements...there is no audience interaction (or at least I haven't figured it out yet).
I apologize if it seems like im trying to hijack the thread, but it just came to me as I read your comment.
Thanks in any case
Oh my goodness I'm so sorry, I haven't done much other than post my stories on this site, so I didn't realize...
Anyways, my author name is Twren
The basis of my story comes from real life, but I change quite a few things so that no one can ever really link it to me (i know this may be wierd, but I hope to be a real author some day and i dont want to give people reason to hate)
On the other hand there are the 1-bomb readers who seem to be only out there to kill off high scores, not actually scoring what a story is worth to them.
I have some stories that got a 1 vote, ut no other votes below 4 or 5. Idon't takethem seriously.
you can't vote until the end of the story
Not sure what you mean by end of the story.
You can vote before a story is completely posted. However, the option to vote is only displayed at the end of the last posted chapter of an in-process story.
the option to vote is only displayed at the end of the last posted chapter
And you can jump to the last chapter to vote even if you stop reading at an earlier chapter.
Not sure what you mean by end of the story.
You're correct, it's the last chapter posted. For me that means the end of the story since I usually don't start reading until the story is complete.
I wonder whether there would be any interest amongst authors for a wizard facility to switch on scoring when a story is marked as complete.
AJ
I wonder whether there would be any interest amongst authors for a wizard facility to switch on scoring when a story is marked as complete.
I doubt it. Many authors switch on voting after a few chapters hoping for a higher score. Waiting for votes until after completion goes against that way of thinking, it might even cause less readers because some readers don't "trust" the story quality without a score.
I think there's a sizeable contingent of us who wait until a story is complete to read. In my case, pretty much any story that doesn't contain anything I object to and doesn't have a horrid synopsis gets a chance. While there are certain writers who get higher priority (and some who I've noted to pretty much never read anything by) I can usually tell by the end of the first long paragraph if I'll continue... I don't really need scores. (Besides, enough voters like stories that I find unreadable that scores aren't a great metric.) My point is, I doubt there'd be that many 'lost' readers.
I think there's a sizeable contingent of us who wait until a story is complete to read.
That's true for me, but tell that to the readers of "Arlene and Jeff."
19,506 kb, 6,449,882 downloads, 6,136 votes
Those 6,136 votes, equaling a score of 9.12, wouldn't exist. Also, my stories are completed even when I post them a chapter at a time, but some author's have said scores by chapter guide them when they write subsequent chapters.
I believe that story has been around since it was possible to vote multiple times for the same story (if you flushed cookies) so I'm not sure about the actual number of voters.
But yes, some people are patient enough to follow serials.
That's true for me, but tell that to the readers of "Arlene and Jeff."
That's the one and only serial I follow. Several reasons:
1-It's consistent in posting. You can count on a chapter every Friday like clock work.
2-There's no expectation that the story will ever end. It maybe will at some point and that's great but there's no reason to wait for it.
3-There are episodes over multiple chapters that are less interesting (i.e. another marriage) but the last chapters and probably the upcoming chapters are good story material. Those come and go and keep things interesting.
4-It's a story that's easy to follow even with a week between chapters. I have a problem doing that with a lot of other stories, one of the reasons I wait for a story to complete.
I wouldn't score it a 9 but certainly a solid 8. Without the long drawn out marriages it could be a 9 for me too.
That's the one and only serial I follow.
For your comprehension test, name Jeff's wives in the order he acquired them. ;-)
AJ
For your comprehension test, name Jeff's wives in the order he acquired them. ;-)
Does it really make any difference? :)
Does it really make any difference? :)
Probably not. I think most of them lost their individuality an long time ago :-(
AJ
Probably not. I think most of them lost their individuality an long time ago :-(
The count is up to 17 wives. I only know because it was mentioned in the last chapter :)
I think most didn't appear in the last 10-15 chapters or only with a vague remark, not actively in a scene. It doesn't bother me much but it doesn't fit in the tight bond the clan is supposed to have.
I skimmed through the most recent chapters of Arlene and Jeff (590 to 605).
Unless I missed something, I could only see six, (Diana #1, Arlene #2, Ann #3, Laura #6, Helen #7, and Kei #17 having significant interactions in that range of chapters.
The three of the future wives Tosha #18, Aiko #19, and Selina (TBD) also have significant interactions with Jeff between chapters 590 and 605.
Two other wives are named (Jaime #4or5? and Ada #16) or identified (Ada's daughter)
The score doesn't guide me so much as the comments do. I got four negative comments on the last chapter I posted. So I realized I did something horribly wrong with the story. They are helpful both going backward and foreward. I'll go back and fix the story, and then not make same mistake again.
The score doesn't guide me so much as the comments do.
I never bothered to turn comments on.
I got four negative comments on the last chapter I posted.
Just out of interest, say you post a story, after a week it has been read 20,000 times, current score is 7.3 after 72 votes and there are four comments, one meaningless, three trashing the story.
Do you take the three trash comments to heart? Or do you look at all the data and make a more informed decision?
Do you take the three trash comments to heart? Or do you look at all the data and make a more informed decision?
That's basically the problem--I don't have all the data. I have the number of votes, and I have the adjusted score. The adjusted score has so far remained relatively stable in the 7.3x range. I don't have the raw score, and I don't have the means to check whether the range is dropping. So I don't have much of an idea how readers in general are responding.
Then I have four negative comments and a positive email. Two of the negative comments weren't helpful--just saying something to the effect that the story is ruined. The positive email just said something to the effect of, "You're fine, keep going." Nothing helpful there, either.
That leaves me with two negative comments that at least said something about why they think the story went wrong. In short, I dropped a bomb that seemed to come out of nowhere. It was supposed to be a bomb--for the character. But on reflection, I realized that it didn't have to be a bomb for the reader. Luckily, I think I can fix that part without starting from scratch.
I turned it on from the first chapter. Absent comments, the story's score is the only real indicator of how well the story is doing. If the score goes below the set median of 6, then it might be time for me to think about letting it go.
Technically, that is something an author can already do. It's the author that controls whether voting is turned on for a story. An author could keep voting off until the story is finished.
I will begin reading unfinished stories and put them in my library to track updates. If I don't I will forget what I was reading. I prefer completed stories because I can forget what's happened so far if the author takes too long to updzte. Then I have to start over to catch up.
Unless it's a very long story, my tendency is to reread the earlier chapters anyway. I myself tend to keep turning the earlier chapters of my texts and post updates along with the new chapter. Even setting that aside, I want to be able to take in the text (so far) as a whole. That better enables me to see whether the new chapter fits. And, of course, there is the possibility the author pick up on a small detail that is easily forgotten even if they update quickly.
'End of story' means the page with the words 'THE END' printed in big hold font. Not the page with 'To be continued' on it. The story may suck at the beginning then get better later on. So I save my vote till the end or if I stop reading because it sucks. If a story is so bad I can't finish it, it gets a 1. If I finish the story the will get a 5 or higher with a few exceptions.
I only vote if I reach the end of the story ... This is mainly because you can't vote until the end of the story, ...
The above is an extract from Keet's post that preceded my post.
I am very much aware that 'the end of the story' normally means the same thing as 'The End', which is found at the end of the last chapter in a story.
However, I was pointing out that you can vote on a story before the story has ended. But, you can only register your vote at the end of the last posted chapter - the one that says "To be continued"
If a story is so bad I can't finish it, it gets a 1.
That's rather severe. There are other ratings less than a 5 that would cause you to stop reading:
2 - Hated it
3 - Pretty bad
4 - Not good
How much you dislike it is relative.
That's rather severe. There are other ratings less than a 5 that would cause you to stop reading:
2 - Hated it
3 - Pretty bad
4 - Not good
How much you dislike it is relative.
I agree. I have never given a story a 1 and probably never will. For what it matters I will probably never give a 2 or 3 either unless I completely misread the codes and description or they were deliberately misleading. In the last case that might be worth a 1 but I never encountered that so far.
'End of story' means the page with the words 'THE END' printed in big hold font.
Except when it doesn't. Some authors divide a story multiple parts/books etc, and temporarily set the 'complete' indicator at the end of each part/book.
AJ
I seldom read enough of a poorly written story to consider voting. So the stories I do vote on are often given a score between 7 and 10 but not often over 9.
Cheers
When you see a story so poorly eritten, skip to the end and vote.
Lower average scores results in better stories having higher scores since scores don't need to be adjusted downward as much.
When you see a story so poorly eritten, skip to the end and vote.
I don't know if it is still true, but at one point votes were ignored if the reader hadn't had time to read the whole story: the vote was recorded, but omitted from the tabulation. So a low 'skip to the end' vote was only of use when looking at your history, a reminder not to reread the story. (One side-effect was that it was impossible for new readers to vote against an ongoing serial unless they read all chapters to date; I think premium readers could get round this by downloading the book so far and then registering a vote.)
Also, at one time only premium readers got to alter their votes. Again, I don't know if this is still the case.
At one point, there was no tracking who had voted for a given story, let alone what vote they had issued.
Laz finally admitted the only way to eliminate multiple votes would be to keep voting info on the reader side, which eliminated the reason for not changing votes.
There is always people like that. Ya can't please everyone and some ya NEVER can!
I can't see a 1 vote or a 10 vote but I can see when my score changes but my vote count didn't :(
I've posted 38 stories so far. ( 2790 KB - gotta love the stats system! :)
Long ago when the system simply showed the average score, I asked Lazeez to show the graph of scores. Looking at the graph has always given me the best view of my readers.
I don't actually understand how the current 'score' is determined. The way the description is worded, it seems to be based upon the scores of other stories (by other authors ???).
The graph however shows where votes cluster. It's easy to ignore a tall 1s column when the curve trends around 7 say. Clearly, the 1 votes are independent of the story's general readership, suggesting that those who voted 1 shouldn't have been reading your story.
I think a more accurate scoring system would be based on how the votes skewed, eliminating outliers from a bias of the curve's trend.
Two examples:
(6-1s, 5-2s, 3-3s, and an 8 and a 9)
Just from looking at the graph, the story is considered very poor by the general readership, and the 8 and 9 don't count. The final score should be around 2.
If you reversed the scores (6-10s, 5-9s,...) the score should be around 9.
(5-1s, 1-3, 2-4s, 5-5s, 6-6s, 8-7s, 5-8s, 2-9s, 12-10s)
The graph trends around 7. So ignore the 1s, and consider some of the 10s, but not all of them. The final score should be around 8.3.
...food for math thought :)
I think a more accurate scoring system would be based on how the votes skewed, eliminating outliers from a bias of the curve's trend.
Myself, I at this time see it more like "Who's Line Is It Anyways".
That "Game Show" where they admitted at the start of every episode where the points were made up, and the score did not matter.
I just peeked into one of them again just now, an 8.18.
And the votes are nothing like that. Looks to be a single 7, a ton of 9, and the 8 and 10 are about equal. So should be in the medium 9 range or higher. Yet, it is barely above 8 (with only a single vote below that).
I long ago gave up on making any sense of it.
That "Game Show" where they admitted at the start of every episode where the points were made up, and the score did not matter.
It was a comedy improv show in the format of a game show.
I think the scoring system has outlived its usefulness. It no longer tells the reader if the story is quality. It never tells the author what they should do differently to get better.
There are some stone-cold trolls who downvote stuff that was properly labelled because they just don't like those fetishes.
I am sure there are some where maybe they are too generous as well. Ideally, it would all average out as outliers but the way the scores work a single 1 vote when you only got a few votes basically kills the score.
There should be some other more constructive rating system - that can not be as easily skewed. If Lajeez were so inclined to consider it maybe we could present some ideas?
What about a non-numeric system where the reader rates the story quality based on plot, grammar, and other key factors to quality as either above, average and below.
Granted, that is still a 1-3 type system but because it's contextual it could provide a little more definition to the author on what they need to improve upon.
Another system could be where you cannot vote a 1 or a 10 unless you send feedback/post a comment with your reasons. That way at least we know if the voters thought the score was fair or they just wrote "SAGE!!" because they are trolls.
There could be a system where you have to ask for permission to vote. You could have that automatically as a paid member or a published author, editor or reviewer on the site. Basically - you have to demonstrate you are a contributor. Lajeez could also hand it out to whoever he feels should have it. This won't eliminate trolls but it could reduce it. My guess is there is a lot of people with multi-accounts they created just to drive-by downvote.
There is probably a few ways we could improve the scores or at least make them more meaningful.
There is probably a few ways we could improve the scores or at least make them more meaningful.
Agreed, but every time readers are asked for their time, you lose most of them. Just getting readers to click on a star, after reading a story, is something the great majority aren't willing to do.
I am less inclined to get the opinion of someone who won't click on a star than I am someone who wants to provide constructive feedback- good or bad.
Making it easy for the "I won't click a star" people doesn't seem like it's working. Let's try the opposite? :)
I am someone who wants to provide constructive feedback- good or bad.
I have mostly given up on trying to provide constructive feedback, or even querying authors about their stories. Unless I provide unqualified praise, the usual response from an author is a hot, angry reply. And the authors have a point. What they do they do for nothing. If they have the balls to attempt to write, even if they are totally inexperienced as an author, who am I to critique their work? I am working on the Great American Novel, but so far have published nothing after more than four years in progress. At my current pace, I expect to publish when your great grandchildren's great grandchildren retire. Who, indeed,am I to critique when I have published nothing?
Who, indeed,am I to critique when I have published nothing?
In my mind, that does not disqualify you from making constructive criticism. I, for one, encourage it. i get quite a bit of it, both from my Discord and from SOL, and it has improved my stories immensely.
Who, indeed,am I to critique when I have published nothing?
Just write about how the story made you feel. Mention where you're coming from as a reader. That's awesome feedback.
Who, indeed,am I to critique when I have published nothing?
Myself, I welcome feedback from anything.
I think the only time I get irritated is when somebody writes something like the following:
I read your story, but it needed to have the girl get fucked by her father, then she do the family pet. You only get a 1, you suck!
And yea, I get stuff like that on occasion. And myself, I simply say DILLIGAF? Then I often respond with a paraphrase from a philosophical movie from a few years ago.
"This ain't that kinda story, bruv."
What I suggest (and do myself) is only comment on the story itself. I do not comment on how they satisfied my interests, or whine when they do not. Simply, at the end of the story did it satisfy me? Was it well written and articulated? Did it make me feel for the characters?
Or was it simply just another heaping of the kind of stuff ASSM was flooded with a quarter century ago?
And I even recognize that some are writing for the first time. What I then look for in the future is if they improve. And yes, many do. And each story that follows is better and better. But some never change, and simply vomit up more of the same and I stop even reading.
I think the only time I get irritated is when somebody writes something like the following:
I read your story, but it needed to have the girl get fucked by her father, then she do the family pet. You only get a 1, you suck!
OMG!Yes this is so annoying. Write your own stupid story if that's what you want!
OMG!Yes this is so annoying. Write your own stupid story if that's what you want!
And that is my exact same belief as well. Do not expect others to bend over to feed your own particular fetishes.
If they are that big of a deal, just write your own. Do not expect us to write them to cater to your wants. In fact, to be honest I now rarely post in the "Story Ideas" thread in here anymore (as well as "Story Recommendations"), because that seems to be what 80% of the posts are now. "Please somebody make a story where Hermione does Harry in his stag form, as Ron does Ginny."
I just want to shake my head every time I read something like that and say "If you want that, write it yourself".
And that is my exact same belief as well. Do not expect others to bend over to feed your own particular fetishes.
When I began writing, I wrote a lot of mind control and other control stories. When I branched out, more than one reader told me to go back to it because "I was so good at it." What they meant was it was the kind of stories they liked so write more of them.
When I began writing, I wrote a lot of mind control and other control stories. When I branched out, more than one reader told me to go back to it because "I was so good at it." What they meant was it was the kind of stories they liked so write more of them.
I got into writing myself for similar reasons.
But for me, I was to be honest sick and tired of the majority of stories on ASSM. Normally 3-6k, completely cardboard characters you could not give a fuck about, and having to be stuffed with sex at least every 3rd paragraph. Most of them would even make a 1974 Harry Reems porno plot look like real literature.
So I started to concentrate more on things like character development and actual settings. Not just "I was riding the bus home after school and was horny so reached over and grabbed Billy's huge throbbing cock".
So I started to concentrate more on things like character development and actual settings.
Not me. Back then I wrote porn.
I was influenced by the White Shadows site. And the "The Humiliation of Jane" story influenced me to write mind control. With a lot of head-hopping. LOL
But for me, I was to be honest sick and tired of the majority of stories on ASSM. Normally 3-6k, completely cardboard characters you could not give a fuck about, and having to be stuffed with sex at least every 3rd paragraph. Most of them would even make a 1974 Harry Reems porno plot look like real literature.
Yep, and I suspect that kind of ASSM audience are the 1-bombers here.
Does anybody actually know why 1-bombers do what they do? Or is everybody guessing?
They didn't get a little red tricycle when they were young. It seems that has a profound affect on a persons psychological wellbeing in later years which causes some kind of revenge response. :D
They didn't get a little red tricycle when they were young.
For any female 1-bombers it was probably a pony.
For any female 1-bombers it was probably a pony.
That didn't include a sex story about a girl and her pony.
That didn't include a sex story about a girl and her pony.
Or maybe one about a pony girl. (Tends to be over on the BDSM side.)
Does anybody actually know why 1-bombers do what they do? Or is everybody guessing?
I had guessed it was other authors whose motive was to make their own stories score relatively higher.
Does anybody actually know why 1-bombers do what they do?
There's a chance the 1-bombers know.
But actually, the problem is that you're treating a symptom as a cause. There's several groups of unobombers:
1. the deranged 'fan' - he hates that stories exist that have a higher score than his favorite author/story has, so he'll one bomb every other story he sees that has a higher score.
2. the 'gatekeeper' - he doesn't believe certain content should be posted online anywhere, but especially not somewhere he reads his porn, so he'll one bomb any content he objects to.
3. the nutjob - he's personally offended by something the author wrote in the story, and must punish by one bomb.
4. the misguided 'fan' - wants the author to get back to writing stories like the fan likes, and will one bomb any stories unlike that one until the writer learns to write the right 'type' of story.
5. the machiavellian econ student - by analysis this person realized that the only 'effective' votes are one or ten, as they'll have more impact on the overall score than any other vote will, and he wants to 'make his vote count'.
note: these groups could be divided into fewer distinct groups, those being "idiots, assholes, and fucktards"
note: these groups could be divided into fewer distinct groups, those being "idiots, assholes, and fucktards"
Maybe it's an idea to only allow premium members to vote. Many of the 'idiots, assholes, and fucktards' won't pay just so they can 1-bomb.
2. the 'gatekeeper' - he doesn't believe certain content should be posted online anywhere, but especially not somewhere he reads his porn, so he'll one bomb any content he objects to.
Yep! You tagged your story non-cons and I read it anyway but it has non-cons event but since I don't like non-cons I'm scoring you a 1 no matter the quality or content of the rest of the story. Oh, btw write more stories about father-daughter sex and make his dick 12 inches long
I've been extensively 1-bombed. There's been very little feedback, but what there has been was universally related to story content, even though the content was clearly indicated in the story tags and/or descriptions.
I assume the majority of my readers are Murican, in which case I'm totally gobsmacked by their hero worship of the UK's royal family.
AJ
I assume the majority of my readers are Murican, in which case I'm totally gobsmacked by their hero worship of the UK's royal family.
We don't have our own royal family to hero worship and some people just need to hero worship someone. So, a group of Americans needing to hero worship someone kidnapped the UK royal family.
Who, indeed,am I to critique when I have published nothing?
As you may have read in another thread, the people who most care about head-hopping are other authors.
As someone who is solely a reader, you haven't had author groupthink drummed into you, so you're actually providing purer feedback.
AJ
As you may have read in another thread, the people who most care about head-hopping are other authors.
Not quite true. I believe what was said is that authors (or those trained in the craft of writing fiction) recognize it.
Head-hopping, if done poorly, will be jarring to the reader. They just don't know why.
Head-hopping, if done poorly, will be jarring to the reader.
Any story writing technique if done poorly will be jarring to the reader. Nothing special about head-hopping except perhaps that it is harder to do well.
Not quite true. I believe what was said is that authors (or those trained in the craft of writing fiction) recognize it.
While recognising it, they're not concentrating on the story.
AJ
While recognising it, they're not concentrating on the story.
I actually find that a problem. As I said, I'm not thrilled with the authors' writing skills in the novels I've been reading. How they use dialogue and dialogue tags is awful.
So noticing that while reading does take me out of the story. But I can't help it anymore. I believe it's more my editor hat than author hat.
There are some stone-cold trolls who downvote stuff that was properly labelled because they just don't like those fetishes.
I'm not one of those people since I never score anything less than a 6, but let me come to their defense. If a score is supposed to indicate how much a reader liked a story, and the reader absolutely hated a story, why shoudn't the reader give it a low score? I don't give low scores - but I also don't pay attention to codes before I read a story. I don't pay attention to codes because authors themselves don't consistently follow the codes.
There are some stone-cold trolls who downvote stuff that was properly labelled because they just don't like those fetishes.
That is something else altogether different I think.
And yes, I am aware that quite a few who come here are only looking for fetish porn. I could tell because when my work started to increase again about 3 years ago, a lot of them wrote to me about it.
Have the main charter get with the girlfriend's mom, have the 2 sisters go at it with the main character. Have the dad of the main character get with the mom of the girlfriend, that makes them siblings and they could get at it too.
To be honest, I got so many "request" and "suggestions" to turn Country Boy into some kind of weird Cougar - Incest story that I got motherfucking sick of it.
I for one do not really write any kind of "fetish porn". Now granted, some stories may have some aspects, but that is never the intent. What I am telling is a story, and the sex may indeed be a big part of it, it rarely drives the actual story itself.
Hence, my use of "caution" and not revealing some parts. Both for story reasons (avoiding spoilers), as well as I simply have no interest in attracting the "fetish readers".
I have exactly 2 stories that involve incest. And yea, to be honest they disturb me by what some people have written afterwards. Like one saying I should continue one, where the father was obviously traumatized when he realized the girl in the mask he had porked the night before was his daughter.
Uhhh, continue what exactly. Watch him sink into maybe alcoholism as he tries to deal with that? Not to mention the fact I choose to leave the story with his learning his daughter was knocked up, and it might be his.
I will be absolutely honest, I largely hold the "fetish readers" with disdain, even contempt. They have no concern as to how well written or crafted a story is, all they care about is their fetish.
I in fact am pretty sure I could write a story if I really wanted that would get good scores but was really garbage. Simply by catering it only towards some of the fetish readers.
Heck, I got a few 1 bombs and quite a few low scores for one I wrote that was purposefully horrible. The "average" here is 5.63, but most of the scores are actually 7 or higher. And even quite a few in the 10 range.
Why? Probably because at least some understood what I had actually written. An outright parody, trying to cater to as many fetishes as possible in a single story. A single 6k story in which I think I shoved in every story code possible. Written in the most absolute juvenile style I could. Why? Because that was the intent of the story.
It was a comedy improv show in the format of a game show.
Hence, the quotes.
Of course, I could have chosen to call it the "Allan Parson's Project". *chuckles like Dr. Evil and gives air quotes*
I long ago gave up on making any sense of it.
Heh, screw the score and just use the graph. That would allow the author to decide what the 'score' is.
oh, and I'm jealous, Mushroom! Good for you!
oh, and I'm jealous, Mushroom! Good for you!
Thank you for that.
Myself, I do consider myself more of a "craftsman" than I was just 3 years ago. Today, I put a lot more work into just telling a good story. And one other thing I admit.
Playing with the thoughts and emotions of the audience.
But not in some kind of evil, twisted way to fuck with their emotions. I actually realized that 2 years ago. I was just really getting into my "opus magnum", and one reader contacted me to say the path he saw the story might be going was disturbing him. However, to be honest I had not liked the lead female character since early on and decided she had to go.
So after a book and a half, I made her become a complete slut. A cheating slut, who after the main character left for a military deployment for 3 years went to prostitution and porn. And as I expected, the comments both in messages and on the story blew up.
Then I made a comment, that was true. That the main character had already met the love of his life, they just did not know it yet. And ever since then, I constantly get comments on who it is. Some even seem to be running odds on who it is. And each time he boinks somebody new, I see the comments blow up again, wondering if it is her.
But no, that is not really me playing with them, some things simply had to happen first. Specifically, I was waiting for 1993. That is because as part of their "realizing", I had since 2018 had a very specific song in mind to be played afterwards. A song that was not released until that year.
But I have to admit, I am laughing now because in the next few days, I am going to see the final payout of the last 3 years. Because the sequence is actually already written, and is about to be posted soon. But the only thing I hope for is that those who were waiting are pleased with how I finally resolved it.
Yes, I write mostly to uncover emotions. That story I was writing about you commented on? Once again, not conventional in the slightest. The couple only have a single weekend together, then he is killed. And she is left an unwed single mother. But it is also the short story that I am the most proud of. Because of how I crafted it, trying to make others feel the love this young couples has for each other. Then the trauma she goes through after he is killed, and at the same time hiding the very fact she is pregnant until almost the end.
I don't actually understand how the current 'score' is determined. The way the description is worded, it seems to be based upon the scores of other stories (by other authors ???).
Pretty simple - the top & bottom are thrown away (to reduce effect of fanbois and 1-bombs), then the average of the rest are 'graded on the curve' (to set the average score across all stories since the scoring system last changed, to 5.5 I think). So, other stories votes do affect your story score, and you can't work out what your score will be without knowing all votes cast for all stories. I think an unintended consequence of this is that a small number of (not very good) authors will try to maximise their own scores by 1-bombing other authors to keep their scores down.
I think a more accurate scoring system would be based on how the votes skewed, eliminating outliers from a bias of the curve's trend.
The current system does eliminate the outliers.
However, the score is there to provide the readers with a guide as to how other readers liked the story - it does no more and no less.
Some of the stories have scores given from 5 to 20 years ago when the number and quality of the stories were very different than today, and the scoring system in use back then was also very different. That makes it hard to compare a score from 2001 to one from 2019. So the current system is a very good attempt to provide a rational comparison of those varying periods.
I'm not sure how many periods are involved, but at each point when the scoring system changed that was classed as a period. What the system did was to take all of the scores for each scoring period, place them in order, and 'normalize' them to an average figure (I think it is 6). The stories all stayed in the same order as they did before, but the score values changed a little. This was done with each of the scoring periods, then all of these adjusted scores have been processed to come up with the current score in the system.
Whatever you have to say about the system, it does retain the relative position of each story in regards to the other stories. Thus the top 5% of high scores are still the top 5% of high scores - the figure may be just a little different.
So when you compare the story scores to other scores of other stories the relationship stays the same. That's why I don't worry about the scores much - except when we have discussions on them. So if the mean is 6.00 to be an average score - than anything above that os above average and anything below that is - well you get the picture.
To those that DON'T have scoring enabled for their stories...do you get flack from readers for not having scoring enabled?
I ask because my understanding after reading #2 on the stats page, is that scores are averaged with other scores for stories POSTED at the same time as yours are,,,not by genre tags etc...so if a "good" story is posted at the same time as a "bad" story, it will have a mediocre score...
or is my understanding wrong?
Thanks SS
I ask because my understanding after reading #2 on the stats page, is that scores are averaged with other scores for stories POSTED at the same time as yours are,,,not by genre tags etc...so if a "good" story is posted at the same time as a "bad" story, it will have a mediocre score...
It's not the 'Same time', it's the 'Same Period' and the 22 years of the site's existence are currently divided into 6 periods.
So any new story's score is based on the current period:
1- 1998-01-01 -> 2001-07-01: 2038 stories
2- 2001-06-30 -> 2004-01-01: 5042 stories
3- 2003-12-31 -> 2005-01-01: 2250 stories
4- 2004-12-31 -> 2012-01-01: 18724 stories
5- 2011-12-31 -> 2014-01-01: 4362 stories
6- 2013-12-31 -> 2030-01-01: 14895 stories
So you score is weighted against the score of nearly 15,000 stories. So the effect of one other story that's scoring 9.7 is minuscule on your own score.
As any two consecutive periods' median become almost equal, I merge the periods. There is a chance that in the next 5 years, I may merge #2 and #3 periods
Finestories and Scifistories have only 1 period each.
Out of curiosity, would it not have been better to make the 'periods' of equal length?
Out of curiosity, would it not have been better to make the 'periods' of equal length?
The periods came about due to changes in how the scoring and voting was done. Each change became a period of it's own. I know this from past discussion years ago.
Out of curiosity, would it not have been better to make the 'periods' of equal length?
Not really. The 'periods' are used to adjust for changes in the system and how they affect reader behaviour.
For example, Voting choices wording can greatly affect what vote readers cast. Whether it is words or stars affect readers. Strangely enough, form position in the story affects voting patterns.
So any time I make a change that affects reader behaviour, I start a new period. If the change proves that it doesn't affect reader behaviour (same median), I merge the periods.
Scifistories and Finestories have a single period because I haven't made any changes to reader-facing design of the form since I created those sites. So no need for any splits.
Strangely enough, form position in the story affects voting patterns.
I don't understand what that means. Please could you explain further.
AJ
I don't understand what that means. Please could you explain further.
At one stage, the voting form was below the 'The End/To Be Continued' line.
I moved it above it, and a whole new group of readers started voting, changing the voting pattern for the site.
It generally dropped the median by about 0.4 points. So I had to start a new period after the voting form position change.
I just became aware that authors can delete comments that are in any way critical at all of their stories, so the only metric to judge a story now is the score I guess.
I just became aware that authors can delete comments that are in any way critical at all of their stories, so the only metric to judge a story now is the score I guess.
Only in regards to authors who actually bother to look at the comments and delete them. I only ever look at the comments when someone says I should - I'd never thought to delete any, so I just leave them be.
The score is only one barometer.
My top downloaded story, my high score story, and my story in most reader libraries are three different stories.
Each story must appeal differently to readers.
Further showing that scores are just one measurement of "success" (whatever that means), my latest story which is my lowest scoring story (yet!) (it has votes all along the scale) is already number three in reader libraries.
After stories have been completed for a while, the rate of reader accesses tends to settle down to a fairly consistent rate. The story that regularly tops my weekly download counts actually has a very humble sub-6 rating.
AJ
After stories have been completed for a while, the rate of reader accesses tends to settle down to a fairly consistent rate
Granted, if you have no new postings for a while, there often will be a spike in the downloads of older ones when you post a new one.
If it's a good idea to downgrade your score of a story - not because you don't like the story but because you don't like the way it was tagged - then it should be okay to downgrade a story because you don't like the description (or lack thereof). Why not downgrade it because you don't like the title? Or the pen name of the author? Personally, I score the story only on the contents of the story.
you don't like the way it was tagged - then it should be okay to downgrade a story because you don't like the description (or lack thereof).
His is issue is more about how it was done to be misleading, and if the tags or description are done to be misleading, then he has valid reasons for downvoting the story.