I looked at the first ten stories posted under New Stories heading today and was struck by two things. The first is that the largest story was 29 KB (two were 1 KB flash stories)and the second was that the highest score of the nine that had scoring open was 6.51. Then I looked at the first ten stories under the Update heading and the size to date on the ten stories ranged from 42 KB to 809 KB with the lowest of the nine that were scored being 7.31. Comments?
They also like ongoing stories.
That must be the silent majority, as opposed to the vociferous minority who post to the forum that they won't touch an incomplete story ;)
AJ
That must be the silent majority, as opposed to the vociferous minority who post to the forum that they won't touch an incomplete story ;)
Look at the download counts of ongoing stories.
Look at Arlene and Jeff.
Look at the download counts of ongoing stories.
Look at Arlene and Jeff.
Dividing the headline number of downloads by the number of chapters gives a figure north of 8000.
Personally I suspect that length is a more decisive factor than being ongoing, but that's not something that can readily be proven.
AJ
Personally I suspect that length is a more decisive factor than being ongoing, but that's not something that can readily be proven.
Ultimately, you've got to ask what the draw on these 'never-ending stories' really is. Is it the length (we're bored and want something, anything to keep our minds occupied), is it wanting more of the same characters, essentially doing the same thing over and over (for a lot of the stories, at least), or is it that the stories devote more attention to the stories, and to fully developing their characters in small ways that shorter stories just can't accomplish because of their inherent constraints?
for me, it is the "getting drawn into the world" type of expectation. I don't want to get comfortable with the world and characters, only to read "the end" after reading for 5 hours.
Also, I don't want to search for good stories several times a day. I want to find a good long story and nibble on it for some days or weeks.
Also, I don't want to search for good stories several times a day. I want to find a good long story and nibble on it for some days or weeks.
I also think that thinking plays into the 'never-ending' stories. If posted all at once, they'd NEVER be as popular, but when delivered a single chapter at a time, on a semi-regular basis, they're the perfect size to each at a single setting without having to block out a significant amount of time for.
Personally I suspect that length is a more decisive factor than being ongoing, but that's not something that can readily be proven.
I'm currently running a multi (currently 15) part story with chapters of a few KB apiece. Okay, it's a sample of 1. Still, it's rated just under 6. I think that's lower than any of my really-long stories.
Readers like long stories.
Up to a certain point! When you've read past four or five places where the story could have and, probably, should have ended but it keeps going, it's time for the readers to stop encouraging the author by continuing to download another chapter.
That might also be based in part on "luck of the draw". Personally of the first ten I got when I checked the "new stories" only one had a description and set of codes that would interest me enough to read it.
At almost the same time, there were seven among the updated ones that had caught my interest enough for me to give them try, and several of those were in my library at least for a while.
My highest rated story is Mr. Evans. Which is 10KB long and sits at 7.65. It is what I consider to be my best work artistically speaking. I am sure if I was a better writer its rating would be higher.
I am aware that the fact it is a short story is held against it. Also, very little of the screen time is dedicated to sex may have been held against it though some readers may appreciate it.
I post here for the generous amount of freedom Lazeez permits in the guidelines and the particular type of fellowship found within our halls. Not because the scoring guidelines work in my favor.
the fact it is a short story is held against it. Also, very little of the screen time is dedicated to sex may have been held against it
My 4th best story (out of 35) is only 4k and no sex.
Well, 4th based on the score everyone sees. It's # 6 based on the raw score which is the actual score given (minus the top and bottom 5%). The raw score is a more accurate score to use when comparing stories.
I was talking in generalities when I said longer stories score better. I believe that's true more often than not, but not all the time.
The raw score is a more accurate score to use when comparing stories.
I thought you had to promise not to criticize the scoring system?
I understand SB's comment as meaning it is better to use the raw scores when performing statistical analysis.
My bad. I thought the displayed scores are the result of a statistical analysis.
There's a factor figured into the displayed score that uses the scores given to other stories at the time of scoring. That's a variable. I said the raw scores are more accurate when comparing Story A to Story B because that factor isn't in play. It's the actual score given.
The fact the story I referred to was #4 when sorted by the display score and #6 when sorted by the raw score is telling. I'm not criticizing the scoring system. The displayed score has it's meaning while the raw score has it's meaning. Apples and oranges.
The displayed score has it's meaning while the raw score has it's meaning. Apples and oranges.
The scores are like apples and oranges, many people like oranges, while several people just happen to despise the crunchy apples! 'D
many people like oranges
You'd probably enjoy this, Oranges Are Not the Only Fruit.
I enjoyed the TV adaptation.
You'd probably enjoy this, Oranges Are Not the Only Fruit.
Although I'd heard of it, I'd never read it (the 'evangelical' mother was never an attraction for me, since I've never related to that mindset), but looking it up led me back to "Rubyfruit Jungle", which I always loved and wouldn't mind rereading.
There's also a new novel about a young teen lesbian forced to attend a religious 'reprogramming', which sounds similar, but in a more modern setting.
I was talking in generalities when I said longer stories score better. I believe that's true more often than not, but not all the time.
The argument presented wasn't that longer stories scored better, but rather whether the longer stories were better simply because the author put more work into them. Given the small co-efficient for size to score, I'm guessing it's the latter.
It is possible to get a very high score with a short story. You have to be prepared to sacrifice originality for formula, and cater specifically for middle-aged ex-military Americans. Include lots of 'oorah' and 'semper fi' etc.
AJ
possible to get a very high score with a short story ... cater specifically for middle-aged ex-military Americans.
That's a LOAD OF CRAP.
You must cater specifically for ex-military American old farts of any age.
I'm not so sure as it would depend on your definition of a short story. I limit my short stories to a hard limit of 7,500 words. It forces me when using a formula to become as creative as I can. As I write in a minimalist style every word has to pack as much juice as I put in it.
I'm still not going to get an extremely high rating because:
1. My stories are short.
2. There's usually not a lot of sex. (I let the characters decide if they want to put on a show for the audience.)
3. I am a good writer and not a great one.
https://storiesonline.net/list/5/all_time_top_50_classic_short_stories
90% of the top 10 is "No sex"
80% of the top 50 is "No sex", 90% if you include minimal sex.
Most of the Top 10 is Military, rest is Military, Tear-jerker and True Story.
So "no sex" has nothing to do with short stories being lower scored.
So "no sex" has nothing to do with short stories being lower scored.
Speaking from personal experience, when I check the difference in scores between each chapter, those with sex & romance consistently score well, though I doubt that change the overall story score. They're popular, but the stories generally stand by themselves.
3. I am a good writer and not a great one.
I'm not sure any of us SOL authors can truly claim to be "great" authors. We get by, but we still have a LONG ways to go.
I post here for the generous amount of freedom Lazeez permits in the guidelines and the particular type of fellowship found within our halls. Not because the scoring guidelines work in my favor.
You'll find that's fairly consistent here, despite the constant griping about scores. Few of us choose what we write based on reader demand. Instead, we write the types of stories which appeal to us, or for a select few, the types of stories which challenge us (i.e. that are hard to write, or difficult to carry off effectively). Thus, untimely, score had very little bearing on what's available and what's not.
That's why Lazeez keeps insisting that the scores are not for the authors, but for the readers, so they can better find the types of stories that appeal to them. That's always important to keep in mind. It's nice when people like your stories, as it shows the writing was 'successful', but in the end it's more about a writer's motivation than it is about what's the most successful.
I have written short stories, long stories and what is classified as epic stories. The scores for my shorts range from 7.59 to 8.58. Multi-chapter "long" and "medium" stories got rated between 7.96 and 8.79. The "epic" ones (>500 KB) range from 8.30 to 9.16. So yes, longer stories get better appreciation, but not dramatically so. My "best" shorty scores better than some of my long or epic stories.
A cursory look at some of my fellow writers' scores confirms this. A short story has a good chance to be well appreciated. Long stories get better scores on average, but also constitute more effort on the part of the writer. As Dr. Ruth said, size is not all.
Added: I ran a Prism statistics for my own stories, and the coefficient of determination (R square) for length (KB) versus score is 0.566, a rather moderate correlation. Of course, you have to perform such analyses for one writer at a time, with the assumption that the appeal of his/her writings is consistent. Anything else is like comparing apples and pears.
Added: I ran a Prism statistics for my own stories, and the coefficient of determination (R square) for length (KB) versus score is 0.566, a rather moderate correlation. Of course, you have to perform such analyses for one writer at a time, with the assumption that the appeal of his/her writings is consistent. Anything else is like comparing apples and pears.
I wrestled with this for some time. My early stories were LONG (chapter lengths, not total story length, as I've always kept my stories around the 20 chapter size. Ranging from 7,000 to 14,000 words-per-chapter, they meandered all over the place, with the characters delving into often fairly minor interactions. Yet, those stories are still some of my most popular and enduring.
I then shifted to 'short and concise', dipping down into the 1,500 to 7,000 word chapters, the scores dropped noticeably (note the scores for The Cuckoo's Progeny and Lost With Nothing to Lose. The later was based on fast action and quickly switching from one situation to another, while the later focuses on character development and fleshing out everyone's personality.
In the end, I seriously doubt it's as simple as 'total word count' = higher scores, but rather longer stories give the authors more time to devote to their characters and flesh out scenes—though we could all use some lessons to paring our writing to the bone while keeping those necessary details.
90% of the top 10 is "No sex"
80% of the top 50 is "No sex", 90% if you include minimal sex.
Most of the Top 10 is Military, rest is Military, Tear-jerker and True Story.
The main reason a longer story gets a better score is they have a lot more room to work with in crafting a good story. It takes a lot more work to write a damn good short story properly than it does to do the same for a full length novel where you have more room to develop the characters and the plot.
I came across a story today which sincerely impressed me with the quality of the writing. It's score was 6.0.
I expect a minor downgrade for short stories and this one was only 12KB.
I'd also expect some downgrade for an FA/ft consensual story, although nowhere near as much as gay stories.
Still, I can't figure out how this story only rates a 6.0.
A possible explanation is that this story uses a number of "$10 words". I like that when the word found is exactly right for the situation, even when I have to look up the precise meaning in a dictionary.
My suspicion is that a fair proportion of readers resent that - and punish authors with their scores if they feel the author is being condescending towards them.
I hope that is not true. If it is, it would mean scores here do not reflect the appeal to readers in general, but more to the lowest common denominator of education among readers.
Does anyone have any opinions or anecdotes suggesting whether or not my suspicion is true?
A possible explanation is that this story uses a number of "$10 words". I like that when the word found is exactly right for the situation, even when I have to look up the precise meaning in a dictionary.
My suspicion is that a fair proportion of readers resent that - and punish authors with their scores if they feel the author is being condescending towards them.
I have to look up words on a regular basis and if I find that the word fits the situation perfectly I appreciate it very much that the author managed to find that word instead of a more regular one that would fit but not as well as the, to me, unknown word he used.
I don't think it has any effect on the scores unless a specific reader can only follow stories with very simple English in which case I doubt he reads very much in English at all. Now I can understand that if a reader has to look up 10 words in every chapter it takes away from his reading pleasure. I think I would stop reading a story if had to look up that much but I would not score it lower because of that, most likely I would not score it all.
look up 10 words in every chapter ... stop reading ... most likely I would not score it all.
WHY WOULDN'T anyone do that as soon as they realise they are not among the audience the author was writing for?
My suspicion is that a fair proportion give the story a low score because it did not appeal to their tastes.
I sincerely appreciate the fact that the site has many readers with reading levels equivalent to American junior high students. Without their memberships the webmaster could not give us the fantastic service we all enjoy. And I do not see any particular correlation between reading levels and enjoyment of reading, except probably numbers.
I'll put you down in the column of those who have not noticed what I perceive.
WHY WOULDN'T anyone do that as soon as they realise they are not among the audience the author was writing for?
Maybe because some readers realize a story can use language that goes above their level of understanding but still be a good story? At least that's how I view it, I'm sure there are other readers that react completely different.
My suspicion is that a fair proportion give the story a low score because it did not appeal to their tastes.
A low score because a story doesn't appeal I can understand but there are more parts to that decision then just too many difficult words.
I sincerely appreciate the fact that the site has many readers with reading levels equivalent to American junior high students. Without their memberships the webmaster could not give us the fantastic service we all enjoy. And I do not see any particular correlation between reading levels and enjoyment of reading, except probably numbers.
I'll put you down in the column of those who have not noticed what I perceive.
I bet a fair part of the non-English readers have a very good understanding of the English language. I think I'm one of them and recently joined the supporting members crowd. I agree there doesn't have to be a correlation but at some point a reader might get frustrated with a language-wise too difficult story.
You are right I have not noticed what you perceive, maybe because I view it from a readers point of view and have no access to underlying scores like authors do.
a reader might get frustrated with a language-wise too difficult story.
This must go back to the 1970s. I started reading a novel called Gravity's Rainbow. I had to stop reading it. I don't remember if it was vocabulary or sentence structure, but I didn't understand it. And if I remember, my wife gave up on it too and she was an English teacher with a Masters in English Literature and Creative Writing. I mean, she understood Chaucer and other hard-to-understand authors.
I just went to Amazon to get the author's name (Thomas Pynchon). What did I find? A book called A Gravity's Rainbow Companion: Sources and Contexts for Pynchon's Novel. "Steven Weisenburger's indispensable guide to Thomas Pynchon's Gravity's Rainbow. Weisenburger takes the reader page by page, often line by line, through the welter of historical references, scientific data, cultural fragments, anthropological research, jokes, and puns around which Pynchon wove his story. Weisenburger fully annotates Pynchon's use of languages ranging from Russian and Hebrew to such subdialects of English as 1940s street talk, drug lingo, and military slang as well as the more obscure terminology of black magic, Rosicrucianism, and Pavlovian psychology. The Companion also reveals the underlying organization of Gravity's Rainbow―how the book's myriad references form patterns of meaning and structure that have eluded both admirers and critics of the novel."
I prefer a good book that I don't have to struggle through. I read for enjoyment.
ETA:
Also listed is a book by the author titled Study Guide: Gravity's Rainbow by Thomas Pynchon. "Thomas Pynchon has a reputation as a "difficult" author -- but he doesn't have to be! With this new guide, Gravity's Rainbow can be understood by the average reader. Included are: a chapter-by-chapter summary and commentary on the story, a thorough description of all major characters, a biography of Pynchon, suggestions for essay topics, and much more. This guide is guaranteed to help you finish and make sense of Gravity's Rainbow -- all in a concise and easy-to-read format. Whether you are totally new to the book or just want to deepen your understanding, this guide will save you hours of struggle and frustration."
I prefer a good book that I don't have to struggle through. I read for enjoyment.
That's better expressed than what I said. Reading for enjoyment, not struggling through it. That's what some readers might get frustrated.
With this new guide, Gravity's Rainbow can be understood by the average reader. Included are: a chapter-by-chapter summary and commentary on the story, a thorough description of all major characters, a biography of Pynchon, suggestions for essay topics, and much more. This guide is guaranteed to help you finish and make sense of Gravity's Rainbow -- all in a concise and easy-to-read format. Whether you are totally new to the book or just want to deepen your understanding, this guide will save
you hours of struggle and frustration.
That's so not funny that you have to laugh about it. If 'reading' someones book requires you to make a complete study out of it, including manuals, then there's no enjoyment left in reading it in the first place.
(ETA, Estimated Time of Arrival? ;) )
That's better expressed than what I said. Reading for enjoyment, not struggling through it. That's what some readers might get frustrated.
Creative Writing 101 - don't use unnecessarily long words.
Dean Koontz has developed a nasty habit of including at least three words in each novel that can't be found in standard dictionaries. And I mark him down for that.
AJ
Creative Writing 101 - don't use unnecessarily long words.
For example, needlessly using unnecessarily. :-)
I read the story you've been promoting. I wasn't hit by any obvious $10 words. My personal rating was commensurate with its general appeal, which I believe was fairly reflected by the story's score.
Since you seem to have seen something many readers have missed, you should really review the story yourself to get your opinion across, rather than trying to influence another reviewer.
AJ
Since you seem to have seen something many readers have missed, you should really review the story yourself to get your opinion across, rather than trying to influence another reviewer.
I submitted my own review first.
I was asked:
Are you interested in being a reviewer on regular basis? We have limited number of reviewer slots.
I had to answer no.
Only then did I start looking for an already-approved reviewer to submit a review for this story, or some other by the the same author.
I asked one reviewer privately first. I didn't open a thread looking for someone else until after they declined.
I have done what I can to AVOID promoting a story or influencing a potential reviewer. I have only said I think the quality of a new author's writing justifies a review from someone - and I refused to name the story publicly.
A review of the story has now been posted by someone else. They only agreed to write a review after I had told them the title and they read the story themselves.
Without knowing what I had said, that reviewer rated it Plot:7, Technical Quality:10, and Appeal to Reviewer:6. I rated it one point higher on Plot and Appeal to Reviewer.
I thank that reviewer for their effort. If they'll forgive my attempt to paraphrase their views, it seems we agree there is something in the quality of writing by this new author worthy of bringing to the attention of readers. Both thought the story was okay but nothing special, and both warned readers to check the codes of this author's stories very carefully.
I think the reviewer did a good job, better than many other reviewers on the site. However, with reviews being very sparse, the very act of posting a review promotes a story to readers. The story concerned has had an increase in downloads and votes since the review was posted.
As an aside, I have a personal issue with what should contribute to a story's Technical Quality. Virtually every reviewer limits themselves to nuts and bolts like spelling, punctuation and grammar. But should it take into consideration criteria like structure and other necessary elements (conflict and tension, twists ...) necessary to make a good story?
AJ
I have a personal issue with what should contribute to a story's Technical Quality. Virtually every reviewer limits themselves to nuts and bolts like spelling, punctuation and grammar.
I would have a different personal issue with that, but in truth, I have not read enough reviews to know the typical standards reviewers here apply. It seems you're saying most reviewers consider the requirements for a ten are (a) not enough errors with nuts and bolts issues to be distracting and (b) the authors' meanings are comprehensible. That is basically my pass-or-fail standard when choosing something to read for enjoyment. I look beyond that level for a range of style issues - a vastly different thing to Style Guides - which enhance or detract from my enjoyment as a reader.
But should [technical quality] take into consideration criteria like structure and other necessary elements (conflict and tension, twists ...) necessary to make a good story?
Not in my opinion. I would include such things under my assessment of Plot.
It should not need to be said, but just in case, technical quality of 10, even by my high standards, is not enough to rescue a poor story, but if the plot and characters are worth it, I can cope with a technical quality of comprehensible if somewhat tedious.
Not in my opinion. I would include such things under my assessment of Plot.
Shows what a lousy reviewer I'd make. I'd lump writing technique issues under Technical rather than Plot :(
AJ
I'd lump writing technique issues under Technical rather than Plot
To be clear, I'd include everything for what the next chapter/scene/paragraph should say under Plot, and everything for how the next paragraph/sentence should be written under Technical Quality.
Shows what a lousy reviewer I'd make.
The only review I've ever written was not accepted. :(
But should it take into consideration criteria like structure and other necessary elements (conflict and tension, twists ...) necessary to make a good story?
That's plot, not technical IMHO.
That's plot, not technical IMHO.
Let me pose an example. There are two authors (that I'm aware of) whose writing style has evolved to be very non-linear. (I don't like it, and although the authors' scores are holding up, their number of readers per chapter has fallen off significantly.)
Would you consider that to be a Plot or Technical Quality consideration?
AJ
Would you consider that to be a Plot or Technical Quality consideration?
I suggest we ask Lazeez to rename the two criteria 'Storytelling' and 'Writing Quality'.
That is what I think they should be.
Would you consider that to be a Plot or Technical Quality consideration?
As I see it, the Plot is the story line and how it develops while technical quality is the way language was used in writing the story. Thus writing style is more to the technical quality side, and what you describe I'd put in the technical quality as the linear progression of the story can be sidelined if it's done well.
Would you consider that to be a Plot or Technical Quality consideration?
Out of those 2 options I'd say technical, as it doesn't actually affect the plot or storyline itself.
It's just a part of how the story is being told.
Having said that- for me Technical quality relates to spelling, grammar, synonyms, homonyms, formatting etc.
Whether or not it's being told in a non-linear fashion isn't something I would mark one way or the other as being Technical.
It would be included in the Appeal to Author score. If it works, it would increase the appeal of the story, if it doesn't then it would decrease the appeal- and it's something I would put in the review.
I personally prefer a story that is linear. Those that jump backwards & forwards tend to be difficult to follow. But I have read a few (very few stories) that did jump around, but it was well done.
For me a story shouldn't be difficult to read- not that the plot should be simple, but i shouldn't have to have all my wits & faculties focussed on it in order to read it, but that it should draw me along with it.
That's plot, not technical IMHO.
I accept that 'twists' come under plot, but not necessarily 'tension'.
The latest series of Dr Who (or Dr Whom, as I call it, since it's Dr Who with a womb) seems to me to be largely devoid of tension since the protagonist is an indomitable optimist.
AJ
Dr Who with a womb
WTF??? Has the entire country gone mad?
A rapidly mounting body of anecdotal evidence ... :-)
Jodie Whittaker. Rumour has it the current series is going to contain a lesbian kiss between Dr Who and her husband, River Song (Alex Kingston).
AJ
Rumour has it the current series is going to contain a lesbian kiss between Dr Who and her husband, River Song (Alex Kingston).
When a long running show needs to pull out the lesbian kiss to improve ratings, it's time to pack it in and move on.
Not that I watch it, but isn't DrWho a time lord? Or should I now say Time Lady??
When a long running show needs to pull out the lesbian kiss to improve ratings, it's time to pack it in and move on.
Not that I watch it, but isn't DrWho a time lord? Or should I now say Time Lady??
I don't think the purported lesbian kiss is intended to be lascivious but a progression of the series resurrector (Russell Davies) and the BBC's agenda to normalise homosexuality on TV. They wanted a male homosexual kiss but it was ruled too controversial, but they put one into Torchwood, a more adult series, instead. Even so, they sort of cheated with the Doctor being kissed by the Master while the latter was in Missy's body.
And yes, Dr Who is a Time Lord/Lady.
AJ
They wanted a male homosexual kiss but it was ruled too controversial, but they put one into Torchwood, a more adult series, instead.
Wow, what a stuffy old lot you Brits are. That taboo was broken in America by the sitcom Will & Grace at an 8:30 pm time slot, in 2005 I think.
Perhaps the network figured they could get away with it because no one likely to complain would ever know: they'd all be watching Monday Night Football instead.
Perhaps the network figured they could get away with it because no one likely to complain would ever know: they'd all be watching Monday Night Football instead.
Brits actually had that taboo broken in the 90's when football players started kissing each other to celebrate a goal. It started around the same time players started appearing in shampoo commercials, well they had long hair so needed shampoo ...
Wow, what a stuffy old lot you Brits are. That taboo was broken in America by the sitcom Will & Grace at an 8:30 pm time slot, in 2005 I think.
A male-male kiss was banned from Dr Who because it's considered a childrens' programme. The Torchwood spinoff was considered adult, even though the Doctor put a guest appearance.
AJ
because it's considered a childrens' programme.
That's fair enough, IMHO.
childrens'
Weren't you the one ...?
When a long running show needs to pull out the lesbian kiss to improve ratings, it's time to pack it in and move on.
Not that I watch it, but isn't DrWho a time lord? Or should I now say Time Lady??
Yes, and while it's a first for the Doctor, there have been at least two other time lord gender bender regenerations shown in the modern series, a General on Galifrey and the Master.
It's quite possible that they've been planning this for several years.
It's quite possible that they've been planning this for several years.
Not surprising, the BBC's usual pace is around half the speed of smell.
I accept that 'twists' come under plot, but not necessarily 'tension'.
Plot and Storyline appear to be interchangeable depending on where you look for a definition.
One is the sequence of events that occur to get from the beginning to the end.
The other is the why & how it happens.
For our purposes, the score for Plot in a review encompasses both. So you've got the twists, turns, tension, interaction between the characters.
Quality is the punctuation, formatting, grammar etc.
The Appeal is the result of both of the other factors, combined with the reviewer's personal interests.
The latest series of Dr Who (or Dr Whom, as I call it, since it's Dr Who with a womb)
In case anyone's interested, the Dr Whom 'Christmas' special will this year be a 'New Year' special. And John Barrowman (Capt Jack Harkness) wants to return to the show - he must rate his chances of being part of the show's first male-male kiss ;)
AJ
or posted from the space station.
Difficult to write a really good story from there ... No atmosphere.
(Yes I know it's in the thermosphere, which is much better than being in the troposphere. We have far too many trop's as it is.)
Difficult to write a really good story from there ... No atmosphere.
I thought they had bottled oxygen on hand in the space station!
I thought they had bottled oxygen on hand in the space station!
No, they employ scrubbers.
NB
NASA's definition of a scrubber and the colloquial English one vary greatly.
No, they employ scrubbers.
I thought they employed air scrubbers to remove the CO2 and the moisture but they also had some bottled oxygen they added to the mix. Oh well. However, the main point is they do have some breathable air up there so they can write a story and upload it if they wish to. After all, they do upload YouTube videos.
edit to add: www.youtube.com/watch?v=KaOC9danxNo
NASA's definition of a scrubber and the colloquial English one vary greatly.
The NASA one is based on the Submarine service one- for removing the Carbon Dioxide from the air.
https://www.spacestationexplorers.org/educational-programs/storytimefromspace/
https://m.imgur.com/gallery/qEw3A
If 'reading' someones book requires you to make a complete study out of it ... then there's no enjoyment left in reading it in the first place.
EXCEPT ... for Vladimir Nabokov's "other masterpiece", Pale Fire.
This "novel" consists of a lengthy introduction by the editor of an epic poem. The editor was the poet's neighbour. The poet died before writing the final line of the poem. The there's the 999 lines of the unfinished poem. Then there's a line-by-line commentary on the meaning of the poem.
So, sorry, the majority of the enjoyment in this one IS its internal study guide.
So, sorry, the majority of the enjoyment in this one IS its internal study guide.
There's always that one exception to the rule.
Do poem's really get edited? I thought a poem was the single piece of literature where 'flowery', but perhaps not completely accurate use of language is acceptable.
(ETA, Estimated Time of Arrival? ;) )
On this forum, in the context of the quote you were replying to: Edited To Add...
Also listed is a book by the author titled Study Guide: Gravity's Rainbow by Thomas Pynchon. "Thomas Pynchon has a reputation as a "difficult" author -- but he doesn't have to be!
An attempt to create extra sales? Buy the book, then buy a second book to explain the first ... Total cost £17.08
Or, for just $10 "Pretentious twaddle"
I came across a story today which sincerely impressed me with the quality of the writing. It's score was 6.0.
Would you care to share the title, or at least the author, of the story? $10 words don't bother me, in fact I appreciate expanding my vocabulary, and F/f coding isn't a problem.
Would you care to share the title
Not publicly. My reasons for that are explained in a new thread at the Editors/Reviewers Hangout.
But I'll gladly tell you the author's name if you drop me a private mail message.
A possible explanation is that this story uses a number of "$10 words"
Hmm, a new story code — "$10 words"
Every reviewer has his or her own opinions which may vary over time and with their experience in reviewing. I think six is an average, in school a C. Seven is better than average, good, in school a B. Eight is outstanding, in school an A. Nine is even better, an A plus. Ten should be very rare, something that blows the reviewer away. At least three standard deviations above the mean, average, mode, any other measure of central tendency. Other reviewers think any story they review is a ten, for all the scores. It helps if you look at other stories they have reviewed to see if their ten is what you would consider a ten should be. And you may find other stories worth looking at they have reviewed. At least if you liked the story they reviewed that led you to their lair.
I can't see why this exchange wasn't killed off at birth.
Isn't it obvious that the order in which the plot is revealed is the plot?
Congratulations guys, you've proved that readers/writers who actually follow discussions about scoring can't agree on what constitutes being part of a score, let alone how stories should be scored properly.
Leaving aside the view that scores are for readers, not authors. (Try telling any sportsperson that their scores are only meant for the spectators ...)
The only way for scores to be meaningful is to have a panel judge every story and allocate a score, something that will obviously never happen. (If it did there would no doubt be bickering about who was on the panel and what criteria they used.)
Readers are always going to score by their own values, be it a ten for their favourite author or a one because the story has a code they didn't like. Both extreme, but both happen. Everything in between is personal opinion.
Are we done now?
(I won't hold my breath)
Leaving aside the view that scores are for readers, not authors. (Try telling any sportsperson that their scores are only meant for the spectators ...)
See, that's one of the differences between sports, and a site that hosts stories.
With sports, the score allows you to figure out who won, lost or drew on the day, and who gets the money, medal, ribbon or bragging rights.
With stories on a site, the scores also allow the author bragging rights (or not), as well as give the readers a hint as to what might & what might not be worth reading.
And then to add to that we have the scores that go with the reviews, which along with the explanation of why the reviewer did or didn't like the story allow the reader to make a more informed decision as to whether or not to read the story.
The only way for scores to be meaningful is to have a panel judge every story and allocate a score, something that will obviously never happen. (If it did there would no doubt be bickering about who was on the panel and what criteria they used.)
Yes, that panel exists, and yes the recent discussion has been about the criteria & it's interpretation.
The panel being the reviewers, the criteria being categorising the elements of a story for the reviewer's scores.
the recent discussion has been about the criteria & it's interpretation.
I only skimmed the scoring criteria discussion here and even skipped some posts so I'm not really sure what the arguments were, but you can see why Lazeez did away with the TPA scoring.
For me:
Plot is the story, which includes plot and character development. (After all, the original definition of "stroke" was no plot so that tells you what "plot" is.)
Technical is how the story is told (the obvious being grammar, spelling, and punctuation, but also things like show don't tell.) (My guess is Lazeez was thinking grammar, spelling, and punctuation only.)
Appeal is simply how much I liked it, which, for me, how it's told is a big part (T) but so is, of course, the story itself (P).
Technical is how the story is told (the obvious being grammar, spelling, and punctuation, but also things like show don't tell.)
I agree but I assess many other things too.
For me, grammar, spelling, and punctuation is the easy part. Those can be learned and authors can get them right most of the time with a little some care and effort.
But I look at dozens of things beyond those: aspects which can make technically correct writing anything from a work of art to too tedious to bother reading - even if that means missing out on a great plot.
too tedious to bother reading - even if that means missing out on a great plot.
That was the gist of the thriller novel I read in Italy. It had a really good plot, but the way it was told was boring and a chore to read. I didn't enjoy it and if I had had another book with me I wouldn't have.
Now the thriller novel I just finished had a lot of technical problems (which most readers wouldn't notice), but it was exciting, especially towards the end.
Technical is how the story is told (the obvious being grammar, spelling, and punctuation, but also things like show don't tell.)
I recall a discussion here about the differing requirements of flash fiction and short stories compared to longer works. I'd mark down a story written in the wrong style, ie a short story written in a verbose style more appropriate to a novel.
AJ
I'd mark down a story written in the wrong style, ie a short story written in a verbose style more appropriate to a novel.
I agree and would extend that to genres. There's a style of writing that would be ideal for action adventures but horrible in romances -- and vice versa!
And when CW talks about his action chapters vs recovery chapters, to a lesser extent, but I think that similar distinctions should be made for those too.
* * *
Even down to insignificant posts like this one. An earlier version of this post used the word 'too' twice. There was no way I could let that stand once I'd noticed it. I think I've managed to develop as a writer (as opposed to an author) because something as trivial as that is intolerable to me.
Yes, that panel exists, and yes the recent discussion has been about the criteria & it's interpretation.
The panel being the reviewers, the criteria being categorising the elements of a story for the reviewer's scores.
Utter rubbish.
For it to be true, reviewers would have to discuss and agree criteria. They don't.
Reviewers act independently. Nothing wrong in that at all. But to think they currently form a panel is naive, as well as being balderdash.
See, that's one of the differences between sports, and a site that hosts stories.
Obviously my comparison was too complicated for you. So instead, do you actually think authors don't care what score their stories receive..?? Next, do you think telling them that the scores are meant only for the readers is actually accepted..??
Next, do you think telling them that the scores are meant only for the readers is actually accepted..??
Don't story scores contribute towards authorial premier memberships?
AJ
Don't story scores contribute towards authorial premier memberships?
Not really, it's basically the story size, with an allowance for quality, but as far as I have seen, if an author posted enough low quality stories, then they would still gain premier status. And why not? They spent a significant amount of time and effort contributing.
Not really, it's basically the story size, with an allowance for quality
Assuming 5.0 words per KB storage (and it's hard to write anything in English which gets much higher or lower than that);
And assuming that you allow scoring of your stories:
* 100K words can never be enough
* 125K words should get you there if the average score of your stories is 8.0
* 200K words will probably be needed if the average score is 5.0
* A million words will always be enough, no matter how bad the scores are - but the site must accept those stories as original works first.
but the site must accept those stories as original works first.
True, but irrelevant as that caveat applies to any story submitted.
@Ross at Play
but the site must accept those stories as original works first.
@JoyR
True, but irrelevant as that caveat applies to any story submitted.
I meant only that someone could not think that asking their trained monkey to type a million words for them would be a shortcut to free membership. :-)
I meant only that someone could not think that asking their trained monkey to type a million words for them would be a shortcut to free membership. :-)
It used to be postulated that giving an infinite number of monkeys an infinite number of typewriters would eventually produce the works of Shakespeare ...
Of course currently they'd all demand computers and get distracted watching porn, so the likely result would be asstr ...
Of course currently they'd all demand computers and get distracted watching porn, so the likely result would be asstr ...
One of your best ever posts here, IMO. LOLAROTF.
Of course currently they'd all demand computers and get distracted watching porn,
Where the female monkeys will learn what those bananas are really for.
Where the female monkeys will learn what those bananas are really for.
You mean some people eat them first...???
I've just checked. Note 4 on the author stats says:
"This number is the size of text qualifying for premier service. If it is over 500, then you should be getting premier service on the site, or you will after your next post. It's calculated from the regular size and the score. Better quality stories are worth more."
So the score is important towards premier membership.
AJ
Obviously my comparison was too complicated for you. So instead, do you actually think authors don't care what score their stories receive..?? Next, do you think telling them that the scores are meant only for the readers is actually accepted..??
Obviously you aren't interested in reading what I posted, but just being abusive & derogatory.
If you just want belittle people that respond to you, then there's not much point in me responding to you is there?
If you want to actually discuss things, re-read what I posted & address that. Don't pick out a single line, ignoring all the rest & then start spewing forth bile.
Don't pick out a single line, ignoring all the rest & then start spewing forth bile.
Then I shouldn't follow your example..?
then there's not much point in me responding to you is there?
Apparently not. So let's make it mutual.
Don't pick out a single line, ignoring all the rest & then start spewing forth bile.
Then I shouldn't follow your example..?
?
I wasn't insulting in my response, nor did I quote out of context- I just responded to one of the points that you made.
then there's not much point in me responding to you is there?
Apparently not. So let's make it mutual.
So be it.
You've just made the case for each reviewer explaining what criteria they've used to judge each story as well as what ratings they've allocated using those criteria. And it confirms my feeling that one reviewer's ratings don't bear a simple relationship to other reviewers' ratings.
When there are a sufficiently large number of ratings eg the readers' scores on a popular story, to some extent the differences are ironed out, but that doesn't apply for a sparse population like reviews, which has an inherent bias from reviewers only reviewing stories they like.
AJ
You've just made the case for each reviewer explaining what criteria they've used to judge each story as well as what ratings they've allocated using those criteria.
Never happen. A quick shuffle through a few different reviews will show that each reviewer is different in their approach.
And it confirms my feeling that one reviewer's ratings don't bear a simple relationship to other reviewers' ratings.
Agreed
When there are a sufficiently large number of ratings eg the readers' scores on a popular story, to some extent the differences are ironed out, but that doesn't apply for a sparse population like reviews, which has an inherent bias from reviewers only reviewing stories they like.
Let's skip the scoring issue. (Done to death)
As for reviewers scores, some don't score at all, a few treat scores as if they were exam results C B B+ etc. Most just score as they feel appropriate. Bottom line is treat a reviewer like a critic, if you find one you agree with, take notice, otherwise, just remember it's only their opinion, nothing more. The only really useful purpose reviews have is too briefly call attention to a story by virtue of the review appearing in the stream.
Once you get over the egos involved, the reality is that this site hosts stories written by a wide range of people of varying skills, who write and post simply for the enjoyment. The site does an excellent job, the readers generally don't bother to vote or respond to stories, as any comparison between views and votes will prove. Authors can write what they like, readers can score or not, how they like, our webmaster should by now have enough proof of how to organise chaos to qualify as a noble prize candidate. So if how or why a story is scored isn't to someones liking, their only practical recourse is to simply ignore the score. Bitching about how, in their opinion, readers should have scored a story is an utter waste of bandwidth.
(As is this post)
So if how or why a story is scored isn't to someones liking, their only practical recourse is to simply ignore the score.
Not quite "only practical recourse".
1. They can turn scoring off. IIRC, the existing score will then continue being displayed.
2. They may ask for the story to be removed from the site. The webmaster has a legal right - granted to them by authors in their contracts with the site - to decline requests for that until two years after the date of posting.
Bitching about how, in their opinion, readers should have scored a story is an utter waste of bandwidth.
... and an invitation for public derision here.
1. They can turn scoring off. IIRC, the existing score will then continue being displayed.
2. They may ask for the story to be removed from the site. The webmaster has a legal right - granted to them by authors in their contracts with the site - to decline requests for that until two years after the date of posting.
For authors, yes. For readers, no.
Bottom line is treat a reviewer like a critic
The problem I have with that is demonstrated by how my newspaper's film critics rate films. They have no problems with awarding turkeys rather than stars for films which they reckon should be avoided at all costs.
On SOL, negative reviews are by negative inference - if a story hasn't been reviewed, is it because none of the site's reviewers liked it?
AJ
if a story hasn't been reviewed, is it because none of the site's reviewers liked it?
In my opinion, not true. Reviewers have lives too and more to do than read older stories that don't show up on the front page or the lists of stories completed in the last 30 days. And there aren't that many reviewers. Look at the Review section, I counted 140 names of reviewers and some have not written reviews in years or have only one or two. And some are reviews of stories other reviewers have commented on. A good thing to do to find better than average stories is to find a reviewer or perhaps several who have reviewed stories you like and look at the other stories that reviewer has written about. Another, probably better approach, is to look at stories authors recommend. And lately the Forum has occasional posts asking about (missing) stories or authors that could be of interest to you. But remember the Forum is also an Againstum.
Postscript: I looked at the Reviews section again and there are 28 reviewers who have written at least one review in 2018. It is barely possible they will write a total of a few hundred reviews a year. It is unlikely a dozen or more older stories will be reviewed a month. In my opinion there are thousands of good stories that haven't been reviewed.
Look at the Review section, I counted 140 names of reviewers and some have not written reviews in years or have only one or two.
As Ross found out, reviewer slots are limited, I rather assumed that the dead wood would be periodically culled - for example, if someone lets their free site membership expire by not logging in for six months.
AJ
In my opinion there are thousands of good stories that haven't been reviewed.
Absolutely..!!
Whilst most of us would like to see more reviewers active and prolific, what I would not want to see is a scatter gun approach where stories are reviewed just because they are posted/score above x/etc.
Whilst most of us would like to see more reviewers active and prolific, what I would not want to see is a scatter gun approach where stories are reviewed just because they are posted/score above x/etc.
To me the reviews are completely unusable as reviews since it almost seems that only 'good' books are reviewed. But that makes the reviews usable in an other way: if there's a review it's most likely to be a good to very good book. That's the only indication I get from the reviews. I don't even have to read the review, if it's there that's indication enough.
if there's a review it's most likely to be a good to very good book. That's the only indication I get from the reviews. I don't even have to read the review
That's fair enough, as far as it goes, but what if there are review(s) of other stories by the same author?
I have a FEATURE REQUEST I ask Lazeez to consider.
I can be a damn pain to find which stories by a particular author have been reviewed once their home page extends beyond one or two screens.
Going to Reviews feature is painful too depending on the first letter of the pen name. I counted seven letters with seven or more screens when View by Author is selected. Guessing whether to try page 4 or 5 depending on the second name of the name can get tedious.
I would like to see the screens for 'View by Story' and 'View by Author' completely redesigned. I suggest their appearance should be very similar to the screens for
'Authors Starting with ?'. Upon entering either you start off with '??? Starting with A'.
In particular, I want the same kind of search by name facility to view reviews by story or authors as currently exists on view authors by letter. All four of the sub-menus for reviews (date, reviewer, story, and author) would need the existing way to swap between those sub-menus.
It's an ideal it's worth aspiring to. The question is whether the cost/benefit is worthwhile. I'm not convinced that readers use reviews to choose a story to read very often.
However Lazeez might have a chunk of code lying around that could be quickly cloned for the purpose, so it's worth raising the question.
AJ
However Lazeez might have a chunk of code lying around that could be quickly cloned for the purpose, so it's worth raising the question.
Agreed.
I just went back to my post to delete the question whether others think it's desirable.
Let's leave it to Lazeez to decide whether it's simple enough to copy, paste, and massage the code from one existing screen into another.
I would like to see the screens for 'View by Story' and 'View by Author' completely redesigned. I suggest their appearance should be very similar to the screens for
'Authors Starting with ?'. Upon entering either you start off with '??? Starting with A'.
done. I added a search field.
done. I added a search field.
Wow! Thanks!
I've given all the options a test drive and they all seem to be working correctly.
On SOL, negative reviews are by negative inference - if a story hasn't been reviewed, is it because none of the site's reviewers liked it?
I very much doubt that is true.
Over 40,000 stories and less than 150 reviewers. Then bear in mind that not all reviewers are still active, or even alive.
There are reviewers, both currently active and once active, who post reviews for varying types of stories, some focused, some eclectic.
For a lot of reviews it seems to be one step above commenting on a story, that in itself is a rare enough event, a review even rarer.
But I can't see how a story without a review could be seen as a negative. More like pot luck.
Over 40,000 stories and less than 150 reviewers. Then bear in mind that not all reviewers are still active, or even alive.
Does anyone know how many reviews have been posted in total?
But I can't see how a story without a review could be seen as a negative.
Negative inference is a standard statistical technique. If one story has five reviews and another has none, which is more likely to be the better story?
AJ
Does anyone know how many reviews have been posted in total?
The top 7 letters of the alphabet all have close to 200 reviews each. An estimate of 3,000 in total would be pretty close.
Does anyone know how many reviews have been posted in total?
3155 as of this moment.
Negative inference is a standard statistical technique. If one story has five reviews and another has none, which is more likely to be the better story?
No idea without reading them, knowing the reviewers personal taste, or knowing the codes.
Statistics are malleable.
Statistically speaking, only one in seven dwarves are happy, yet when asked only one agreed he is grumpy.
The main problem with short stories, is that they are usually SINGLE CHAPTER stories. This means that those who have *Serials Updated in the last 30 days* as their bookmarks for SOL (a significant % of the readers), NEVER SEE THOSE STORIES.
If the authors break their stories into even just two chapters, they will increase their readership!
If it is a good story, those extra readers will counteract the assholes who think that a *1* vote is funny.
