Forum: Author Hangout

Because some people pontificate wisdom as though it was solely theirs to give, even when they haven't a clue that they ere completely off the mark.

I didn't mean for you to bring it to this thread. It's what the thread is about.

Really? That's a surprise.

I actually wasn't picking on you or anyone else. It was brought up in general terms because it happens all the time from almost everyone. I guess the psychologists will be writing about it in the future (or maybe the historians). The worse offender is Twitter. I've never seen so many bullies as is on Twitter.

The worse offender is Twitter. I've never seen so many bullies as is on Twitter.

Have you ever visited either an Apple or Samsung discussion site? It makes the discussions here look like pillow fights.

Have you ever visited either an Apple or Samsung discussion site? It makes the discussions here look like pillow fights.

LOL! You mean macdailynews.com? It's become tedious. A thread may start about the new colour of an iPhone, but 5 posts down, the knuckle dusters are slipped on about some pseudo-political issue (mostly bad Obama and good Trump and vice versa). I only visit when I'm in the mood to watch mayhem.

I wasn't even discussing the political rants, but the ever-present "Max Sheep"/"MAC Clones" arguments. I never understood why fans of Samsung products would spend all of their time on a Mac site, but for a while Samsung was paying users to trash their competitors.

mention an iPhone or iPad. What's wrong with using "(smart)phone" and "tablet" in stories?

They say to be specific. Say he gave her roses rather than flowers. I use iPhone in my stories too. Sometimes cell phone. Sometimes smart phone. But more likely iPhone.

but worldwide has a market share under 20%

Didn't know that.

Only in very special cases when a brand is required this would be true.

In my stories, I do my best to stay away from any real product, business, or even location names.

Good! Image an author wrote a story 2 years ago and kept on mentioning "Brand X" but now that brand doesn't exist anymore or got a really bad name. I don't think you would want that in your story.

Actually, if it's historically relevant, you might. I use dead brands, closed businesses, and other things if they are period-appropriate.

In my stories, I do my best to stay away from any real product, business, or even location names.

While you can go overboard, avoiding specifics entirely is a mistake of a whole different kind. I've been working with one new author. He describes a budding romance, and the entire thing describes a 'nice' girl, who's 'cute' and 'pretty', but nothing describes why there's any attraction.

No one wants to read about an 'average guy' leading an 'average' life. While the 'average guy' is a powerful literary motif, it's only if the average guy is doing something extraordinary, contrasting the life we all live, with one we all wish we could live.

Although his writing is very good, his 'generic' descriptions are so nonspecific, he can't even remember what room in the house his characters are in from one moment to another, because there's nothing anchoring them. It's just another room, sitting on another chair, talking to yet another 'cute' cute.

You won't win many fans by playing it safe. If your characters aren't extraordinary, if the person they're chasing isn't beautiful and captivating, then why should readers care?

Readers want to feel a character's emotions, but all playing it safe buys you is a character that doesn't move readers at all.

While I'm not saying that's what you're doing, Capt. Zapp, that's the path you're suggesting that others follow. However, it sounds like dangerous advice to me. You can't overplay a weak hand, but it's foolish to continually play the exact same losing hand over and over.

While you can go overboard, avoiding specifics entirely is a mistake of a whole different kind.

I didn't mean that I avoided specifics and just used generic terms. I meant that I use product names that I make up. After all, I'm not getting paid to advertise products for the real companies, and am pretty sure a company I make up won't be coming after me for trademark infringement. :)

Using just generic terms would be like saying vanilla is the only ice cream available.

(I hope my stories don't read like that!)

using the product name in a story to refer to their product is not a trademark violation

Unless it's used negatively.

Using just generic terms would be like saying vanilla is the only ice cream available.

Heh, there's a world shortage of genuine vanilla, so vanilla ice cream is disappearing from the market.

AJ

Cheap vanilla ice cream is made with vanillin, same for most vanilla sugars. There will never be a shortage in vanillin.

Aren't the manufacturers, in the EU at least, required to call that vanilla-flavour[ed] ice-cream rather than vanilla ice-cream?

AJ

You do realize that iPhone is only big in the US but worldwide has a market share under 20%? A great number of readers will not identify with it and some will even hate it. How would you like a story where every time a phone was mentioned it said "Samsung" or "Nokia". That would be exactly the same and I would hate that just as much, it just doesn't add anything to the story. I guess a lot of authors use a iOS so for them it easy to think that Mac==computer or iPhone==smartphone, for readers no so much.

Except, if the story is SET in America (or England or even Brazil), you go with what's local, rather than importing something no one there has ever heard of). There are now several Chinese smartphone makers, who do very well in China, but although most American's have 'heard' of them, we're unlikely to know ANYONE who actually has one.

It's akin to specifying McDonalds (commonly used in America) vs. specifying IHOP in a story set in Australia (where no one has ever heard of the company before).

If you have a story set in present day US and every phone is an iPhone with not a single Droid in sight, I would wonder if you were being paid for product placement.

Good point, but emphasized my point about messaging. If you're presenting an underdog story, contrast his using his last dollars to buy a 2nd or 3rd generation Droid while the villian constantly shows off the newest iToy—especially if he can't use it.

The key isn't to throw names around, it's to use them as writing tools to convey something about the character, not about the author. In that sense, it's best if you don't mention the product that you use, as then it sounds like a product endorsement. It's better to use something unexpected, that catches your readers off-guard, and casts your character in an entirely new light.

But most of all, you don't want to create boring, generic characters with nothing particular to offer. Even if they're an up-and-comer, show that they're making intelligent, rational choices, rather than senseless, meaningless gestures. But have the description convey something, even if it goes astray occasionally.

If you have a story set in present day US and every phone is an iPhone with not a single Droid in sight, I would wonder if you were being paid for product placement.

Or it's the phone the author has and he is simply familiar with it so he automatically uses the phone in the story. Just like my characters always have a Coke.

There are parts of the U.S. where any fizzy drink is a "coke".

And those parts are VERY wrong. Just like there are parts of this country that commit the heinous sin of serving unsweet tea.

What about the parts of the country that seem to think sweet tea should be 3 parts sugar and 1 part tea?

If there's sugar crystals on the bottom after it's been brewed and the sugar put in, then you've used too much. It should never precipitate out. And of course, if you're simply putting sugar into a glass of cold tea, you're doing it wrong in the first place... :)

Or it's the phone the author has and he is simply familiar with it so he automatically uses the phone in the story. Just like my characters always have a Coke.

In parts of the US, this is the generic term for a fizzy drink. :-)

ETA - posted before I saw the same notion by BlackKnight with the same term! :-)

Wait, what ?? There are no IHOP's in Australia ? But it's The International House of Pancakes !

I can't believe they lied to us all those years.

To a US businessman to be International only requires you to open one store in either Mexico or Canada.

Even in the US iPhone is no longer the big dog.

Current US market share for smartphones stands at Android 50%, iPhone 45% and Blackberry and Microsoft Windows phones fighting over the remaining 5%.

Yeah, that's been true for a while, but ... Apple is currently making somewhere around 80 to 90% of ALL the smartphone profits, and while Samsung users sing about all their new 'features', chances are, they'll all be gone by the next release, and the phone you're holding will no longer be supported.

The iPhone, meanwhile, isn't popular because it's expensive, but because it's proven it's dependability for year over year.

While you say authors are merely jumping on a popular bandwagon, showing a character using an iPhone demonstrates, indirectly, that they believe in quality, in doing something the right way, even if it won't produce the quickest buck, and that they're 'reliable'.

What does a character using a Samsung tell readers? That 1) he's cheap, and 2) that it's likely to explode in his pocket and fry his junk!

Specifics make a story feel more 'grounded' in reality, but it also carries certain assumptions that carry over to their characters. Does your detective drive a Ford, or a Maserati, does he date someone 'kinda cute', or someone 'soul-crushingly beautiful'.

If you, as an author, can't think of anything more imaginative than 'he pulled out his phone,' then why should readers trust your story to be very exciting?

The key isn't to avoid specific references, it's knowing when not to overplay it. You drop casual references, but not enough so it's obvious. You mention a specific phone here (the brand isn't that important), you mention his suit, or his date's dress, you mention the restaurant they're dining in, but most of all, you keep mixing it up. Once you've established he uses a sophisticated phone, you drop the references. The reader already knows, so they DON'T need to be reminded. And dumping a dozen brand names in a couple of sentences is a sheer sign that you, the author (I'm speaking generically here), can't afford ANY of those products.

Once again, the key isn't to avoid taking any risks, it's all about not overplaying your hand. You use the hand you're holding, get what you can for it, and then you get out and play a separate hand, rather than continually trying the same old trick, again and again.

Current US market share for smartphones stands at Android 50%, iPhone 45% and Blackberry and Microsoft Windows phones fighting over the remaining 5%.

I think this is occurring for a similar reason that the Betamax system isn't around anymore. Android systems are pretty generic and available from numerous manufacturers while the others are highly proprietary.

Now if I could just get rid of the 'bloatware' that verizon loads on their phones. There are so many 'preloaded' apps on my phone that I can't delete that there is not enough room to update the apps I do use!

Now if I could just get rid of the 'bloatware' that verizon loads on their phones. There are so many 'preloaded' apps on my phone that I can't delete that there is not enough room to update the apps I do use!

One of the reasons Steve Jobs was insistent that only Apple could control the software on the phone and would do direct updates themselves. Granted, there were no apps at first, but that notion made it easier for iPhones to be updated and perform the way Apple intended.

That does not mean there are no issues, including the general inability to sideload, but the fact that AT&T can't cram software onto my phone is HUGE. I used Androids for years and experienced exactly what you report.

They say to be specific. Say he gave her roses rather than flowers. I use iPhone in my stories too. Sometimes cell phone. Sometimes smart phone. But more likely iPhone.

Switch has an excellent point. You want to be specific, just so it sounds like someone's actual life, rather than a simply cardboard cutout of someone's life. But you can't overplay your hand. So rather than continually repeating the same thing every time (such as every time they check the time), you 'switch it up'. That's why authors live and die by a Thesaurus. By alternating uses, it lessons how obnoxious this ploy is to the reader, keeping the uses 'fresh' rather than staid and worn.

You want to be specific, just so it sounds like someone's actual life,

One character drives a Chevy. The other a Mercedes. Tells the reader something about them.

I know Chevrolet in the UK for its rebadged Daewoo cars - cheap, cheerful and good value for money.

Mercedes is a luxury German brand - good looking, hideously expensive (especially for parts and repair work), and yet below average reliability, according to records of how often they have to go to the garage for repair.

How close is that to the impression American readers would garner from those brand names?

AJ

How close is that to the impression American readers would garner from those brand

I was thinking Chevy is inexpensive and Mercedes is luxury expensive. Status?

As an aside, I'm looking at the Audi A4 to replace my 2005 Acura TSX (it's old but only has 63,000 miles). Don't know if I'd buy it now or wait for the 2019 (supposably the car isn't changing).

The ratings are excellent.

Anyone have an opinion on the Audis? I also am not a Mercedes fan.

I was thinking Chevy is inexpensive and Mercedes is luxury expensive. Status?

Sounds good to me. If you drive a Mercedes, especially a convertible model, you'll definitely attract attention.

Anyone have an opinion on the Audis?

In the UK, they're the upmarket sibling of Volkswagen, Seat and Skoda, although sharing most of their mechanicals.

Volkswagen haven't been having a good time of late, need cheat functions to pass emissions tests and raising injunctions to hide security defects, and the Volkswagen Golf is the next model down in reliability tables from the Ford Fiesta, so mechanically it's average.

I reckon it'll be good to drive, but allegedly Europeans like a harder ride than Americans so you might find the suspension a bit harsh. Take it for a long test drive before you buy.

@Grant has an excellent point. Don't buy 'genuine' Audi parts if you can help it. Chances are you'll be able to get an identical part with VW, Seat or Skoda ID much cheaper, without having to risk generic alternatives.

AJ

Europeans like a harder ride than Americans so you might find the suspension a bit harsh.

I like a harder ride. I used to over-inflate my tires to get the harder ride until I was told doing so wore out the tires.

As an aside, I'm looking at the Audi A4 to replace my 2005 Acura TSX (it's old but only has 63,000 miles). Don't know if I'd buy it now or wait for the 2019 (supposably the car isn't changing).

Save some money and buy a Subaru. Same true AWD system, better collision avoidance system, less expensive.

Save some money and buy a Subaru. Same true AWD system, better collision avoidance system, less expensive.

Not only that, but they're much more practical than the iPhone, especially when used in an IHOP!

Save some money and buy a Subaru.

My criteria is reliability and the ratings. The Audi A5 and A4 were at the top. I don't remember seeing a Subaru as being rated well.

My criteria is reliability and the ratings. The Audi A5 and A4 were at the top. I don't remember seeing a Subaru as being rated well.

Not knocking the Audi, it's just that a new A4 on the low end is about $32,000 ($36,000 MSRP), on the high end is about $40,000, and a Performance Plus will top $50,000.

Subaru Legacy 3.6R, which is an IIHS Top Safety Pick +, fully loaded with everything, and is the top of the line, is the same price as the low end A4. You can get it with a smaller engine or less equipment as spend less.

The A4 is considered a midsized luxury car, the Legacy is a midsized car.

Here's the IIHS ratings on the A4 and the Legacy:
http://www.iihs.org/iihs/ratings/vehicle/v/audi/a4-4-door-sedan/2018
http://www.iihs.org/iihs/ratings/vehicle/v/subaru/legacy-4-door-sedan/2018

Not only on discussion sites. I stopped reading Conductor when every chapter just had to mention an iPhone or iPad. What's wrong with using "(smart)phone" and "tablet" in stories?

Technically, readers prefer specifics to generalities, as it makes stories feel more 'lived in'. Thus it's generally better to refer to an iPad than it is to a generic "tablet device", just as it helps a story to refer to specific businesses in a story set in a specific city.

However, as you correctly point out, it's stupid to dump the information on readers, because then the author merely sounds like a shill. It's also better to NOT mention products that readers can't afford, unless the entire story is a 'wish-fulfillment' fantasy, in which case the more extravagant the author is, the more readers like it.

Sadly, that doesn't really address your point, but I wanted to provide some feedback on WHY authors use specific references. But once again, there's a wise way to add that information, and a clumsy way to do something without realizing what you're doing. :(

Thus it's generally better to refer to an iPad than it is to a generic "tablet device", just as it helps a story to refer to specific businesses in a story set in a specific city.

I prefer to use generic or made up business names. After all, even if I like their products, they aren't going to pay me to advertise for them. This is also the reason I don't wear clothing that has company logos or branding. If they can pay some jock to say they wear their clothing, why give them free advertisement? Especially with the prices they demand for them! I did take a shirt with a brand I didn't like and put a 'barred circle' over their logo once.

I prefer to use generic or made up business names. After all, even if I like their products, they aren't going to pay me to advertise for them.

Using a completely fictitious brand works, and considerably better than using a generic phrase, but for newbies, it's more work. You've got to manually create all the associations, investing a considerable amount of time for what would otherwise be only a few short sentences. It's similar to 'showing'. Showing is more powerful, but if all you're saying is that someone is handsome, it's better to say that some woman considers him "gorgeous" than to detail his grooming habits for 700 words! The extra work just doesn't pay off in the short run.

I wonder if that same guy had some good, reasonable points to why SOL (or any other site) is not an acceptable alternative. I bet he had none.

He probably only had ONE. That being the fact that SOL doesn't accept stories involving underage sex.

He probably only had ONE. That being the fact that SOL doesn't accept stories involving underage sex.

SOL doesn't accept stories involving under-fourteens in sexual activity (including nudity) if described in the story. You can talk about it, in a limited way, but not go into detail. If you are unsure of anything, ask Lazeez for a ruling.

Fourteen and up? Generally no problem.

Damn. I thought that was what I said.

I wonder if that same guy had some good, reasonable points to why SOL (or any other site) is not an acceptable alternative. I bet he had none.

He actually did. He had three requirements (which he brought up after bashing me) and SOL didn't meet 2 of them. 1) underage sex. 2) the author can format their own website. 3) was the one SOL met — no ads.

That wasn't the point. I never tried to force anyone over to SOL. I suggested it several times only to be helpful. Because he didn't like that, he attacked me.

I didn't attack him back. I simply said that I didn't understand what he had against me and was simply trying to help. That was my last post. I dropped it.

Someone else then got attacked who did respond and it became a flame war. The moderator stopped it.

I wonder if that same guy had some good, reasonable points to why SOL (or any other site) is not an acceptable alternative. I bet he had none.

From being a part of the discussion, and defending Switch, it's primarily because he writes kiddie-porn, and thus he CAN'T legally post anyone BESIDES ASSTR. But the conversation quickly deescalated from there, with him essentially calling Switch a 'traitor' for NOT posting kiddie-porn, and to please leave all of the 'regulars' alone and no longer visit the site or volunteer any suggestions, because he 'wasn't welcomed'.

No matter WHAT they offer in terms of a new site, I will NOT be visiting it, under ANY circumstances!!!

REP would know.

See my last post.

Anonymous Bravery, with no fear of tangible repercussions for their digital assaults.

That describes Twitter.

Pacifist twaddle.

But I'm an Atlanticist ;)

AJ

So take care in using/mentioning car brands if you want to relay a feeling or status to your readers.

Car brands, as you suggest, are tricky. Smart phones, though, essentially fall into the proverbial PC/Mac category, where either group will attack a story largely because they don't use the phone that the reader identifies with.

As for European SUVs and Pickups, the roads are much too small for either, unless you don't like door panels, side mirrors or paint jobs. In the U.S., though, I'm continually amazed that two cars passing on a quiet suburban street will literally come to a dead stop if they don't have at least a 4 or 5 foot clearance to pass, and it's even worse if there's a bicycle or pedestrian, where they'll often leave a full 8 to 10 foot clearance. Obviously, American's have little depth perception, and can't determine how close they can come to something beside them. And even then, with that much clearance, we have a much higher incident of cars running bikes off the road than you have in Europe (though many of these seem to be more 'road rage' incidents than ineffective driving).

I used to work for a cell phone provider and we were told in training that iPhones were programed to die after I believe it was 200 charges. It didn't matter if they were full charges or not. Just the number of times they were plugged into the charger. That's what they told us and we sold both iPhones and Androids.

It's called planned obsolescence. You have to buy a new battery or a new phone. The way a lot of devices are made, changing the battery can be difficult.

One of my wife's phones is like that. The engineers didn't make battery replacement simple. So if you aren't careful in disassembling the phone, you can damage the screen's circuitry, which means a new phone. The cost of the battery + shipping was more than half the cost of a replacement phone.

I used to work for a cell phone provider and we were told in training that iPhones were programed to die after I believe it was 200 charges. It didn't matter if they were full charges or not. Just the number of times they were plugged into the charger. That's what they told us and we sold both iPhones and Androids.

I call BS after owning (or purchasing on behalf of my kids) quite a few iPhones over the years. My daughter's 3GS was still working and getting updates after Google abandoned my G1 and Nexus 1 phones less than a year after production, despite promises of updates.

That's when I gave up and switched to iPhones. Other than one dropped 30 stories down a stairwell, never had one die because the battery refused to charge after X plug-ins. And especially true of the older ones which could only be backed-up or transfer photos via cable.

My current phone (7S) has been plugged/unplugged ~500 times since I bought it. Battery is still very healthy. Plan to keep it at least another couple of years.

I've also supported 100s of iPhones in business and never seen this kind of behavior, either.

Hi Michael,

I call un-bullshit. I worked at a Sprint call center. This would have been about six years ago. I was taking a break from security at the time.

This was taught to us by our instructors as part of our training as general phone techs. We were not allowed to give the information to the public. It was information to help us "guide" our customers into buying the insurance or upgrading.

Hi Michael,

I call un-bullshit. I worked at a Sprint call center. This would have been about six years ago. I was taking a break from security at the time.

This was taught to us by our instructors as part of our training as general phone techs. We were not allowed to give the information to the public. It was information to help us "guide" our customers into buying the insurance or upgrading.

They were lying to you. Plain and simple. At least in the past, the carriers made WAY more money on non-Apple phones because of incentives, discounts, etc. If 200 plug-ins killed a phone, most wouldn't even last a year. Empirical evidence says they lied to you.

Hi Michael,

I can buy that. As I said, all I knew on the issue is what they said. When I combined that with how much the apps for the iphone were at the time. I decided to never own one and never have.

About all I ever do on my smartphone is read and talk to a few people anyway. I don't use most of its functions. I enjoyed the conversation. Thank you.

In the US Audi and BMW might be seen as luxury, high status or technically sound but where I live these brands are very often used by a-holes, criminals, dealers, road-ragers etc.

There's a joke in the U.S.

What's the difference between a BMW and a porcupine?

The porcupine has the pricks on the outside.

@Ernest Bywater

Let's move the phone discussion into a thread of its own, please. I'll go start it.

@Starfleet Carl

Not knocking the Audi, it's just that a new A4 on the low end is about $32,000 ($36,000 MSRP), on the high end is about $40,000, and a Performance Plus will top $50,000.

Terrific, move the smartphone discussion to a different thread so the rest of us can talk about car porn!

Terrific, move the smartphone discussion to a different thread so the rest of us can talk about car porn!

Ja, and it can move to the autobahn.

Are we going to ban auto discussions?

only if they're bahn humbug ones.