A question for those who post on both sites: are your scores on Finestories lower than on SOL? I just noticed one story that was published on both in which the score was a full point lower on Finestories. Is that the norm?
A question for those who post on both sites: are your scores on Finestories lower than on SOL? I just noticed one story that was published on both in which the score was a full point lower on Finestories. Is that the norm?
I'm not sure if it is across the board, but it definitely is for me. Also, my stores tend to be higher on SciFi (hint, I mainly write sci-fi stories).
It's hard determining what's due to reader interest (younger, less experience readers, perhaps) and which isn't, since the ratings of my stories (where one stands against the others) also varies between the sites.
In short, ratings are entirely a crap shoot. Sometimes you do well one place, other times you do badly, but it's difficult divining intent from them.
ratings are entirely a crap shoot
I agree scores are a crap shoot.
However, I disagree with 'entirely'. The story content on the two sites is different and the readership is different. Those factors affect the scoring, so it isn't surprising that the same story receives different ratings on the two sites.
As I understand it, the ratings of stories on each site are compared to other stories on that site. They are then adjusted so the average on each site comes out at 6.0.
If the median story on one site is "better" than the median story on another site you would expect to the same story to have a lower rating on the site with better stories. A story is compared to oranges on one site and apples on the other. Readers like the average apple on finestories more than the average orange on SoL, resulting in ratings being higher on SoL than finestories.
I vaguely recall something about some sites having a lot of books that were published by dead tree publishers. That could explain the average story on some sites being better than on other sites.
There was another thread on those a few weeks back. Although some readers visit both sites, the bulk of the SoL readers don't visit the FS site, and the same is true in reverse. Thus you have two readerships, and they don't always think the same way about any one story. I've noticed the stories I have on both sites have different scores on the sites, but also the number of votes and downloads varies as well. The same is true for the stories posted on the SF site. Some stories rate higher on one site than the others, but there is no uniform percentage variation and some are highest on SoL with some higher on FS, and a couple higher on SF.
My story ratings (how each compares to my others) is fairly consistent between SOL and sci-fi, probably because the readers are sci-fi fans on both, although the scores tend to be different. On FS, my stories consistently score worse and the ratings (between my stories) varies significantly. Popular stories score low, unpopular stories score higher. I haven't really figured out what type of (my stories) that FS fans prefer.
Many people assume that FS contains a younger readership, though I haven't seen that. The only communication I've had from FS readers have ALL been from SOL readers, so I'm assuming (?) they're either reading the material on 'safe computers' (like at work, libraries, or government computers), or my stories are easier to notice on the smaller site.
I'm also mystified why my stories, in particular, are more popular on FS. I tend to write complicated, serious plots with lots of characters. I could see serious stories doing worse on SOL, where they're competing with stroke stories, but not the reverse. Arguing that a younger readers isn't as discerning also doesn't hold up, as overall, younger (high-school to young adult, at least) tend to be fairly sophisticated readers.
That's partly why I described the numbers (on the different sites) as a "crapshoot", because I can't discern why a given story would be popular on one site, but not on the others.
Note: the difference between SOL and Sci-Fi seems clearer, as my scores tend to be higher on SciFi simply because there are fewer votes. Thus it takes considerable time before they have enough votes to be adjusted down. Once they are adjusted, they're largely in line with the scores on SOL.
Has anyone noticed whether the literary quality of stories is better on one site or the other, across the board?
Has anyone noticed whether the literary quality of stories is better on one site or the other, across the board?
I'd expect the site without stroke stories to have a higher literary quality.
AJ
Some of the stories on the Science Fiction site are "pulp magazine" stories and aren't really "literary". Of course most stroke stories aren't either. Possible exception, ones by Rache and her many pseudonyms. Depending on the effect she was working for.
Some of the stories on the Science Fiction site are "pulp magazine" stories and aren't really "literary".
That's how Lazeez first started SOL. To boost the limited content, he uploaded several older, out-of-copyright-protection stories in order to provide new readers with enough content to attract them. I doubt the 'pulp' content will go up much, now that people are beginning to post there. Besides, I have a feeling many of the 'old-time', classic sci-fi stories might score better than the newer stuff by local authors.
How do you know that?
Common lore. I wasn't here when he first began (though I was following ASSTR before they ever had a website). However, he's still got a few 'public access' stories from that period. If I'm mistaken, I'm sure someone will correct me. 'D
I wasn't here when he first began
Nor was I. But he did upload a bunch (?) of old classics when he started Finestories.
Nor was I. But he did upload a bunch (?) of old classics when he started Finestories.
Now that, I remember, and the older public-access stories on SOL predate the initial launch of FS (though he may have eventually removed them, as I haven't noticed them in a long time, probably because of the large amount of member contributions to the site).
That's how Lazeez first started SOL. To boost the limited content, he uploaded several older, out-of-copyright-protection stories in order to provide new readers with enough content to attract them. I doubt the 'pulp' content will go up much, now that people are beginning to post there.
SOL didn't start with public domain contents. The public domain contents were posted because few members sent them to me on CDs at the time and suggested that I post them. SOL started with my own stories and pictures actually when the site was called 'Lazeez's Corner' that was in 1997. In 1999 I registered Storiesonline.net and focused on stories and started creating the CMS that is the sites' engine now. SOL had nearly 800 stories before I started needing a CMS. And no, don't go trying to guess my pen names from the earliest postings on the site, the current dates are for when I migrated from static files to CMS and I definitely didn't start with my own stuff. At one point I needed the public domain contents because a bunch of authors posting here decided to have their own pay site (the failed Ruthie's Club) and removed all their works from SOL which at the time made up about 60% of the site's contents. They nearly killed SOL at the time.
Yes, FS was launched in 2010 with public domain contents as no site attracts any authors if there are no readers, and readers don't come to an empty site.
The plan for Scifistories is to post any and all public domain stories that I can get my hands on and make it into a true Scifi stories repository. Eventually, all the scifi stories on FS and SOL will show up on Scifistories too.
Eventually, all the scifi stories on FS and SOL will show up on Scifistories too.
I wonder if there's a need, or even the possibility, for stories to not actually be crossposted but "linked", perhaps with a comment about which site actually holds the story. If the author has deliberately created different versions for the different sites, no link is created.
AJ
wonder if there's a need, or even the possibility, for stories to not actually be crossposted but "linked", perhaps with a comment about which site actually holds the story.
Some computers can't access SOL due to monitoring by "higher authority" who supplies them or the wires or wireless access they use. For example at work, or the somewhat adult community that I live in. They don't restrict SOL, thank god, but it does not like BDSM stories and a nanny notice says it doesn't trust the site. Lazeez set up the alternate sites for a reason, not just making them sub-sets of SOL, because some users can't read things here. If Fine stories started referring to stories here, considering the young minds that Fine Stories protects, there could be a problem and somebodies might distrust (remove access) for some users to Fine Stories.
The alternative would involve maintaining up to three copies of scifi stories, one for each site. What if the author made edits to the version on SOL, say? Would the changes be propagated to the other versions?
AJ
I wonder if there's a need, or even the possibility, for stories to not actually be crossposted but "linked"
What Lazeez has said he is working towards is all three sites working off a single underlying database and that SOL will serve up everything in the database while FS and SFS will only serve up stories tagged appropriately for those sites.
Neither cross posting nor linking will be necessary.
I wonder if there's a need, or even the possibility, for stories to not actually be crossposted but "linked", perhaps with a comment about which site actually holds the story. If the author has deliberately created different versions for the different sites, no link is created.
While working on the common story database, I'll try to figure out a solution to the multiple versions problem.
While working on the common story database, I'll try to figure out a solution to the multiple versions problem.
How about a special tag only visible to writers and site administrators. The tag should indicate either the site to display a given file or the site not to display it. The tag would then control which file is visible on which sites.
Good idea. It would probably be best implemented as a step in the story posting algorithm. Lazeez could ask which sites a writer wants the story posted to.
Lazeez could ask which sites a writer wants the story posted to.
It would probably be easier to include a single option: "Distribute Story?". If so, they it posts to all of the other sites (depending on codes). If they say no, then it's up to the other to decide where they want to post to, and whether they feel it deserves modifications on the other sites.
While working on the common story database, I'll try to figure out a solution to the multiple versions problem.
This should only be an issue with a story that's been altered to fit FS, in which case a something on the end of the title would be easy, say (FS) to differentiate the title
This should only be an issue with a story that's been altered to fit FS, in which case a something on the end of the title would be easy, say (FS) to differentiate the title
Maybe a site specific flag which denotes "unique version to this site"? It would then be up to the author to explain the difference between the versions.
In my case, where I included a story about an incestuous relationship on FS while cutting out the sex scenes, I decided most teens could deal with the situations, while they wouldn't necessarily need to see the details (besides, most teens know how to get away site limits anyway). The point of the situation in the story wasn't the relationship itself, but what it reflects about where the characters' origins.
However, the story is currently scoring lower on FS than it is on the other sites, which shows that even that caution is stretching things.
Some of the stories on the Science Fiction site are "pulp magazine" stories and aren't really "literary".
Even pulp magazines have standards and it's not a trivial matter to get published in them.
AJ
I have four stories that are on both sites, with the FS versions lacking "the good stuff". Ratings (SOL/FS) are:
8.56/8.64: One Gold Eagle
8.74/8.56: His Lucky Charm (mean score for Books 1&2 for SOL)
8.55/8.8: Witch Eyes
8.12/8.08: Bente the Collier
Pretty consistent, with small variations (-0.25 to +0.19) in both directions. The SOL scores are based on up to 5 times the number of votes.
I only cross posted stories that lent themselves to being converted to "no sex". "Constable Hereward…" will also be easy to turn into a FS version.
slightly off-topic: it would be nice if there was an easy way to tell if a cross-posted story was identical to the copy on the other site(s), or whether it was an edited version. Perhaps a note in the description, with the absence of a note indicating the versions as identical?
it would be nice if there was an easy way to tell if a cross-posted story was identical to the copy on the other site
If the SoL version is marked anything but No Sex then it has to have been edited to be on FS. I post the exact same story on both, I can't be bothered to change it for just the one, thus only the No Sex stories I write go on FS.
it would be nice if there was an easy way to tell if a cross-posted story was identical to the copy on the other site(s), or whether it was an edited version.
Unlike Ernest, I sometimes post 'clean' versions of stories to FS. In my currently posting story, which features a pseudo-incest theme, several detailed scenes are deftly avoided, though the impacts are still explored. In other stories, I sometimes clean up the language, instead of simply relying on the FS engine to substitute characters for specific letter (ex: "Oh Shoot!" instead of "Oh S*it!").
In those cases, I'll either put a single line at the end of the description, or sometimes I'll detail what's changed in my blog (though if anyone wasn't paying attention when it was first posted is likely to miss the information).
Ideally, it would be nice if Lazeez, once he institutes his 'post once to all three sites', could flag when a story is different on the three different sites. That way, readers could ask the author what's different between the different version, as often times readers are interested in story differences. Knowing which version you'd prefer is handy before you start reading it!
I sometimes clean up the language, instead of simply relying on the FS engine to substitute characters for specific letter (ex: "Oh Shoot!" instead of "Oh S*it!").
The audience for my current novel is YA (Young Adult). Since my main characters are 16 and 17 and readers read up, that means my targeted readers are 13–16. So I wrote it squeaky clean.
Then I asked the teenagers on wattpad. They said that wouldn't be realistic. There's a lot of swearing in their schools so I made some characters swear, including "Fuck you!" They said there was sex in their schools. On that I gave in only slightly. I now have some scenes that are close to sex, but it stops before the sex because that's what the characters would have done. The teenagers on wattpad said it wouldn't be realistic without drugs. That I didn't include in the story because it didn't fit.
So a completely sanitized story wouldn't appeal to many people. If FS is that sanitized it's out of touch with today's readers.
In other stories, I sometimes clean up the language, instead of simply relying on the FS engine to substitute characters for specific letter (ex: "Oh Shoot!" instead of "Oh S*it!").
I'm not posting to Fine Stories myself and don't know the posting rules.
In our society, Oh Shit, Fuck, and similar epitaphs are mild for the 8 to 18 age group. Most of them swear in public far more that I do with significantly more descriptive terms.
It seem odd to me to clean up the text so it is even cleaner than what the young set hears on TV, radio, and in music.
It seem odd to me to clean up the text so it is even cleaner than what the young set hears on TV, radio, and in music.
Its like the sex ed programs in schools. They clean it up so much that what the kids really need to know for their safety will never be covered. Thus the kids wind up in trouble which could have been prevented.
It seem odd to me to clean up the text so it is even cleaner than what the young set hears on TV, radio, and in music.
That's why, in most cases, it's best to let the FS wizard convert swear words ("F*ck" vs. "Fuck"), but sometimes, the story reads better if you use more fitting language.
it's best to let the FS wizard convert swear words
My point was why it is necessary. these forbidden swear words are what the kids hear every day from their friends, TV, music, etc.
My point was why it is necessary. these forbidden swear words are what the kids hear every day from their friends, TV, music, etc.
For the same reason we pretend that people under 18 don't have sex and in many countries can even write about it.
A lot of rules, social and legal, are there to simply placate some who have ulterior motives for insisting on specific rules which when common sense is used don't pass the test.
I know many of the reasons why we don't post that type of material for kids to read. My point is probably more rhetorical than an attempt to have it explained.
If the laws say NO, the no it is. So, if cleaning up a story's swear words and sex scenes has a severe negative impact on the story, why clean it up for posting to these story sites. If you decide to clean it up and post it to the sites knowing the cleanup adversely affects the story , don't complain. Although I don't think anyone is actually complaining in this thread.
My point was why it is necessary. these forbidden swear words are what the kids hear every day from their friends, TV, music, etc.
The type of content allowed on various sites is ultimately a commercial decision for Lazeez to make.
***
I approve of apparently irrational choices if the effect is the parents of children are comfortable encouraging them to read more.
My point was why it is necessary. these forbidden swear words are what the kids hear every day from their friends, TV, music, etc.
First, you're talking teens, whereas many parents (and various organizations) block a wide variety of sites based on content. It's about providing a SAFE environment for people (of all ages) to read fictional stories, rather than a site where everything goes.
Ideally, it would be nice if Lazeez, once he institutes his 'post once to all three sites', could flag when a story is different on the three different sites. That way, readers could ask the author what's different between the different version, as often times readers are interested in story differences. Knowing which version you'd prefer is handy before you start reading it!
That's just what I was hoping for (and why)!
(Edited to correct layout error - it would be nice to be able to preview a post.)
it would be nice to be able to preview a post.
That's an easy fix. Go ahead and post it, and then edit any corrections once you review it.
Unlike Ernest, I sometimes post 'clean' versions of stories to FS.
I have a big problem with that option, simply because I don't include a sex scene unless it does something for the story development either through the plot or the character. Thus, to delete the sex scene or to clean it up enough for FS an important part of the story has just been taken out, and it isn't the same story. More power to those who can clean it up and still tell it all.
I have a big problem with that option
It is not a problem, its respecting the story. For example I can't understand when a writer includes an unneeded sex scene. Use them only when they fit(help) the story or the character or both. Sometimes the best sex scenes are those which are implied without being explicitly described.
The James Bond series both in film and books are notorious for the implied sex acts, many of which fit into the bdsm label.
The James Bond series both in film and books are notorious for the implied sex acts, many of which fit into the bdsm label.
I agree that graphic sex descriptions should not be distributed to kids.
The flip side of that is parents watch movies at home as family entertainment that depict graphic sex scenes. When such a scene comes on the parents tell the kids to shut their eyes and cover their ears, or some other ridiculous thing, which the kids don't do. Sometimes the parents don't even bother with that.
I agree that graphic sex descriptions should not be distributed to kids.
Depends on your definition of kids.
That's a good observation.
Legally, under 18. Practically, probably under 14, but even 10 year olds know far more than I did at 10.
When such a scene comes on the parents tell the kids to shut their eyes and cover their ears, or some other ridiculous thing
When my son was young (I mean real young) we were watching a movie. My wife and I were on the couch and he was lying on his stomach on the floor. I don't remember the scene in the movie, but my son looked over his shoulder and said, "What's a condom?"
When we explained what it was, he said, "Oh, a rubber" and turned back to watch the movie.
They know a lot.
They know a lot.
They think they know a lot, but much of it is wrong (how many remember being told that a Coke makes an efficient semen douche?).
Generally, younger kids don't want to see sex scenes. In fact, they generally get upset when their parents or siblings engage in cuddling with bf/gf/spouses. Unfortunately, the definition of who's old enough and who's too young is defined by a flat cutoff point, established generations ago.
Generally, younger kids don't want to see sex scenes. In fact, they generally get upset when their parents or siblings engage in cuddling with bf/gf/spouses.
Which probably divides in to prepubescent kids genuinely grossed out by PDAs and slightly older kids who have started puberty, still act like they think PDAs are gross, but are actually at the point where they are bothered by it mostly because of envy (they don't have anyone to cuddle with).
older kids who have started puberty
Let's not forget that at that age they are filled with curiosity.
My wife told me a story about what our daughter did when she was 6. My wife walked into the living room and our daughter was laying on the couch covered up with a blanket moaning and groaning. When my wife asked her what was wrong, she reached under the blanket and pulled out her teddy bear and said, "Nothing. I was just having a baby." Don't tell me that young kids aren't aware of sex and the facts of life, and at the time we thought she was naïve concerning these things. They learn a lot from their friends at school and what they see on TV.
Don't tell me that young kids aren't aware of sex and the facts of life, and at the time we thought she was naïve concerning these things. They learn a lot from their friends at school and what they see on TV.
We keep recycling the same points, and no one here is arguing that very young children are idiots, just that certain ages aren't interested in witnessing those scenes, and more importantly, society as a whole isn't eager to expose them to the more explicit material. As such, FS is a 'safe literary' zone. That's why I thought it was legit to include a story concerning incest, as long as I removed the explicit descriptions of the acts. True, to Ernest's points, those descriptions help develop the story and the characters, but they aren't strictly necessary to understanding the story.
If any 8 year old is intrigued by the 'safe version', then they're probably smart enough to figure out how to access the more explicit version on SOL. So let's drop this "children all know everything there is to know about sex" argument, as it's not leading anywhere productive. If you don't approve of self-censorship of stories, then DON'T POST ANYTHING to FS!
If you don't approve of self-censorship of stories, then DON'T POST ANYTHING to FS!
I never said I was opposed to self-censorship. If you check my earlier posts, one of the things I said is if a writer chooses to omit parts of their story so it can be posted on FS, then they shouldn't complain about it not being the same story. Many of the things that need to be omitted for younger readers are the parts that make the story good (i.e., if you chose to butcher your story, don't complain about it no longer being a good story).
I also get the sense that some posters are voicing the opinion that kids, let us say under 13 for reference, are ignorant of the facts of life and haven't been exposed to foul language, and it is therefore mandatory to remove swearing and the mention of sex from stories to protect their innocence.
I do agree that deleting that type of information from a story is the proper thing to do before posting it to a site where young kids can read it because naïve children might read it and find it disturbing.
Generally, younger kids don't want to see sex scenes
Not the kids on wattpad, and there are like 4 million of them. You wouldn't believe the stories they write. A lot of sex. Boy/boy is a common one. And a lot of One Direction fanfic. Some guy named Harry Stiles (I think that's his name) in the stories slept with all 4 million of those teen girls.
Not the kids on wattpad, and there are like 4 million of them. You wouldn't believe the stories they write. A lot of sex. Boy/boy is a common one. And a lot of One Direction fanfic. Some guy named Harry Stiles (I think that's his name) in the stories slept with all 4 million of those teen girls.
Switch, "kids" is NOT a universal quantifier. I seriously doubt 8 and 10 year olds are writing sex stories on wattpad (or at least not he majority of the stories, as they still have trouble with tense and perspective).
We all agree that teenages (American high-school ages) are pretty advanced, since they're already 'young adults', but we're talking about anyone who might visit FS, which also includes areas where computer use is restricted or heavily monitored.
I agree that graphic sex descriptions should not be distributed to kids.
and graphic violence is OK?
and graphic violence is OK?
Based on ratings given to the latest Hollywood Blockbusters, sex and smoking are completely off limits for kids but graphic, visceral violence is fine.
AJ
Based on ratings given to the latest Hollywood Blockbusters, sex and smoking are completely off limits for kids but graphic, visceral violence is fine.
Depends on specific age of the kids and the target rating. The ratings aren't that simple.
For a G rating, violence and strong language are out too.
PG: Limited non-graphic violence and limited strong language allowed.
With graphic violence, the best rating you are going to get is PG13 (parents strongly cautioned, a rating in the Voluntary Movie Rating System indicating that some material may be inappropriate for children under 13).
The ratings aren't that simple.
I agree. However, as we all know the rating system is useless when parents don't comply with the recommendations, and many don't care what their kids see and hear.
and graphic violence is OK?
No, but that wasn't being addressed. If you want to add in the rest including the kitchen sink, nothing would ever be settled.
Trouble is the laws affect online sites regarding what can be written or graphically displayed (pictures, movies, etc.), funny part is those are readily available on the streets. Most of the street information is wrong but the kids cannot tell the difference due to lack of knowledge.
The law supposedly wants to protect them and their minds, but sometimes the law actually does more damage than good.
In the case of sites like SOL its a fine line that needs to be followed. The liability is too great and its an obvious site to be watched and/or investigated regularly. I don't know for a fact that the various organizations investigate it, but the odds say they watch it closely.
FS and the SCI-FI sites give a safe alternative for all ages. Its up to the writers and readers (users) to try and help the idea work.
I do know that now when I recommend the sites I point out that FS is for all ages including children while SOL having a wider range of topics and genres is limited to adult access only. (even if its on an honor basis)
I do know that now when I recommend the sites I point out that FS is for all ages including children while SOL having a wider range of topics and genres is limited to adult access only. (even if its on an honor basis)
While sci-fi is open to alien (boys) of all ages. :)
Well, for everything thinking I'm 'abandoning my craft' for posting a 'safe' story dealing with sex to FS, let me establish my position. Yes, some elements of the story were removed, and yes, they weren't superfluous. However, that don't necessarily mean they were essential. What's more, since even very young children understand basic ideas and recognize dangers in the world at large, I felt it made sense to address the topic as realistically as possible while keeping withing the site's restrictions.
I thought it was a way of addressing a serious topic (although the story doesn't really attack or defend incest in any way) without talking down to the readers. I should also note that I didn't sensor the language, though the FS wizard typically disguises the more obvious curse words.
Thus it comes down to whether I think younger kids, on a 'Safe Site' are entitled to serious stories with serious topics. Apparently, the consensus here on the forum is that any attempt to repackage an existing story is a betrayal by the author.
I'm sorry, but I just don't buy that premise. Sure, the kids unlikely know much more than the world's adults are willing to admit, but in order to package adult stories for them to read, we're forced to wrap it in the only allowable packaging we're allowed to use. I still think it's better offering the story in the first place, rather than continuing to pretend that teenagers and younger children aren't interested in complex stories.
Take that however you want, but I think it's unfair to assume that I don't 'give a damn' about the quality of my story. This was a literary choice, nothing more. It's the same choice authors have made for centuries when given a chance to reach millions by being published in glossy magazines instead of books which only the educated can afford. Mark Twain seemed happy with the choice.
Apparently, the consensus here on the forum is that any attempt to repackage an existing story is a betrayal by the author.
That wasn't my point at all. My main characters are 16 and 17 so, since readers read up, my target audience is 13–16 year olds.
The original version of my novel had no swear words and no sex (not even implied). What I learned from that age group on wattpad was the characters wouldn't be believable so I added some swearing where it was appropriate (probably not as much as I should have) and put the characters in situations where they almost had sex.
The point was, I wanted my story and characters to be believable. In the novel, I have a teenage girl who flirted with a boy. They even went out on a double date. When he told her he had a girlfriend she blew up and said, "Fuck you!" Would her character have been believable if she said, "Oh gosh, I'm so mad at you"?
The point was, I wanted my story and characters to be believable. In the novel, I have a teenage girl who flirted with a boy. They even went out on a double date. When he told her he had a girlfriend she blew up and said, "Fuck you!" Would her character have been believable if she said, "Oh gosh, I'm so mad at you"?
I typically use the more explicit language as it's more authentic. However, for this one story, I decided I could come up with better alternatives than those automatically generated by FS.
I typically use the more explicit language as it's more authentic. However, for this one story, I decided I could come up with better alternatives than those automatically generated by FS.
Oh, frak, that's not easy. But, smeg it, go for it.