Forum: Author Hangout

Otherwise known as 'breaking the proverbial third wall', where the actor steps aside and makes personal comments to the viewer. However, I've seen some excellent uses of that technique, most notable in the PBS series Anika, where the lead character would often directly face the viewers to expand on her Norwegian heritage (she was living in western Scotland at the time) or to expound on either bridges or boats or any number of other details you'd never know about otherwise.

Plus, the ancient Greek playwrights were famous for using a chorus to convey those 'narrative' explanations on the stage, rather than using the characters themselves.

Pedantic correction: it's Fourth Wall.

The phrase is from theater, where actors on stage have three visible walls (back and two wings) but the convention is there's an invisible one between them and the audience. When an actor addresses the audience directly, that "breaks" that conventional fourth wall.

When an actor addresses the audience directly

The TV show Modern Family did that and it was quite funny doing it.

I'm reading a story now that's written in 1st-person where the 1st-person narrator is constantly talking to the reader. And doing it well. That's not author intrusion. I guess it's breaking the fourth wall since the reader isn't part of the story, but is it? Is that simply common in 1st-person?

The way I see it, first-person narrative is (almost by definition) narrated. The narrator must know more of the story than the reader does (since they are presumably not live-blogging the sequence of events) and they also know they're narrating. If you view it that way, an aside to the reader isn't inappropriate - the writer knows there must be a reader to address.

The reader is, in a way, a part of the story, in the same way that your friends are part of a story you tell around the campfire. They're not in the story, but the story implicitly includes the reaction of the listener. Why would someone tell the story if there was no one to tell?

That said: like many things, it's really easy to overuse.

The way I see it, first-person narrative is (almost by definition) narrated.

Yeah, the story is 100% telling, which goes against how I like stories. But I'm really enjoying it because the narrator's voice is great. I don't mind him telling me the story. And I love the asides, which are mostly humorous.

The TV show Modern Family did that and it was quite funny doing it.

The format is that the families were participating in a mockumentary. They weren't talking to the audience, they were speaking to a camera in confessional sessions.

Effectively though, they were talking to the audience.

It seems these authors find themselves with a soapbox

The example of author intrusion I remember when I first read about it was something like:

Joe lit a cigarette, inhaled deeply, and let the air out slowly. The Surgeon General determined smoking cigarettes causes cancer. The others watched the white smoke float to the ceiling before anyone said anything.

The 2nd sentence is author intrusion. The author threw in that bit about it causing cancer.

The are always better, more nuanced ways of conveying really bad writing techniques. :)

The others watched the white smoke float to the ceiling before anyone said anything.

Would that actually happen in real life? A tiny amount of smoke might reach the ceiling and, given enough time and cigarettes, might stain the ceiling. But I would have thought that the laws of physics would mean that the minuscule amount of smoke reaching the ceiling from a single cigarette would be invisible to the naked eye.

AJ

Would that actually happen in real life?

Okay, "float toward the ceiling" (not "to").

(Although you Brits would say "towards".)

And some of us quirky Americans.

I write 'towards' all the time. Then my editors remove the 's'.

I write 'towards' all the time. Then my editors remove the 's'.

I've trained mine not do do that! 😜

(Although you Brits would say "towards".)

Our sat-nav says that all the time, but it says it in such a weird way, that we both find it immensely amusing. So much so, that we have the sat-nav on, even when we don't need it.

That's why, just like tears, it's better not to indicated a steady streaming single tear running the entire length of their face. Instead, referring to it as it's 'following' her faces features often comes across better, as it bypasses that more 'definitive', comprehensive terms.

There is a story on this site that started good but then turned off readers by becoming heavy on pro-Christianity.

As the author of a religiously-themed story (and one that is mostly agnostic, and another that is strongly atheist), I would say if religious beliefs strongly motivate the actions of characters, there's no reason not to include them.

Religious faith is part of life, just as politics, philosophy, and ethics are.

I did give a warning in my story in the description of Book 1:

The story focuses heavily on religion and Orthodox spirituality.

If there was a 'religion' tag, I'd have used it.

I bailed out of an otherwise interesting do-over series when the story went on hold so the MC could deliver a couple chapters of arguments for young-Earth creationism, which successfully overcame objections barely half-filled with straw. Skipping ahead, it was clear there really wasn't a single plot-relevant reason for this, so I was so done. Nope.

"Little did Joey know what a difference buying that $1 lottery ticket would make in the near future...".

That sort of intrusion might encourage a reader continue reading if they were getting bored or frustrated.

That's just bad writing.

It's like writing a story with advert breaks, where the advert is for an unspecified future part of the story.

AJ

That's just bad writing.

I don't think it's bad writing. It's an established writing technique where the author breaks the 4th wall to speak to the reader. It's probably more common in 1st-person, but that's a guess.

The example of author intrusion I gave is bad writing. It's the author giving his opinion in the middle of the story.

I don't think it's bad writing. It's an established writing technique where the author breaks the 4th wall to speak to the reader.

We definitely disagree on that. If an author has to rely on 'adverts' to keep the interest of their readers, their storytelling is failing.

AJ

We definitely disagree

Not really. I wouldn't do it.

The Scarlet Letter, The Great Gatsby,Les Misérables must be "bad writing" then.

If they employ 'advert breaks' to keep readers interested then yes, they include instances of bad writing.

AJ

then yes, they include instances of bad writing

Different times; different writing styles.

"Author intrusion" is a definite writing "don't" nowadays. The fiction author is not to call attention to him/herself in any way, thereby interrupting the flow of the story and the reader's total immersion in it. But in the 18th and 19th centuries, it wasn't uncommon for authors to address readers directly in the narrator's voice, sometimes even beginning these asides with the words "Dear reader."

Jane Austen did it.

The Victorian novel Jane Eyre by Charlotte Bronte ends with: "Reader, I married him."

Just like we shouldn't be judging heroes of the past too harshly for doing what was accepted back then but abhorrent today (which unfortunately we are doing too often), the same applies to writing fiction.

Jane Eyre isn't author intrusion: it's a first person narrator acknowledging the medium. Fourth wall breakage, and all that.

That's just bad writing.

It's like writing a story with advert breaks, where the advert is for an unspecified future part of the story.

I am likely to consider it bad writing if it is a reveal that the reader doesn't expect.

I have a story about soldiers in the US Army during World War Two, focusing upon the ETO (European Theater of Operations); but early in the story I depict the USA before the war. So, when a young soldier takes his first ride on a train, he compares the luxury of the City of Los Angeles (in 1939 the premier service) to pictures he has seen of ocean liners (something many readers have probably seen depicted). As narrarator I mention that when he will eventually voyage on an ocean liner, it will not be luxurious at all.

The blurb of my story is explicit that the Amphibious Invasion of Normandy will be a major event in the story. So, I am not "giving away a secret"; I am contrasting the opulence of that peak of railroad travel in the USA. Few people know what railroad travel was like in the USA in 1939 (fastest and more luxurious than in the 1950's, let alone the 21st century) but most people have seen the movie Titanic.

Since the readers know the characters will be traveling by Ocean Liners converted to troop ships. Probably what I am doing is Forshadowing.

My example may not be the best. However, some authors do use the technique well.

The various books of Variations on a Theme, uses this technique from time to time. Since several characters are aware of events of a future, yet are aware they are living in an almost identical world to the futures they knew, and yet there are several personal and historical events different from what they knew before. The characters reference what they anticipate as they make their plans; also informing readers of events they might not be aware of, to give context to the plans and actions of the characters.

Any other examples of how this technique could be used effectively?

The other side of this is that I tend to think of the story as being my MC/narrator's telling his story (assuming, of course, perfect recall). If he's telling a story, that presumes that he likely actually knows how things turned out.

There are a few places, mostly in Book 1, where there's explicit foreshadowing of that sort. I'm happy with them, but overusing them would burn out quickly, which is why it doesn't happen much.

Same thing with the MC directly addressing the reader, even as an aside. Works once in a great while, but extremely easy to overuse.

If he's telling a story, that presumes that he likely actually knows how things turned out.

In Stephen King's "The Green Mile," the first person narrator says something like: "I found out later after reading the report that…"

I hated it when I read it. I thought King was cheating.

I cut King a lot of slack. He's earned it :)

I cut King a lot of slack. He's earned it :)

That's judging the author, not the quality of the writing or the story.

Every author is capable of improving the quality of their writing.

AJ

Butt in stories involve anal sex.

No, smoking.

Butt in stories involve anal sex.

I don't think any kind of sex is allowed at Butl ins ;-)

AJ

I don't think any kind of sex is allowed at Butl ins ;-)

I think 'camp' sex is allowed ... Hi-de-hi!

Talking of 'camp', I now can't not think of the actor with the most appropriate name ever. The late John Inman...

A story with smoking and anal sex? Either I wrote it or it's on my 'to read' list. ;)

My advice to authors would be to actually read your story before you publish.

That might help catch errors that the author acknowledges as errors, but it won't catch the errors that are above the author's level of knowledge :-(

AJ

Well, the author had the confidence to write and show his work to others, that puts him above all those people who either write without sharing or don't write at all. Since you bothered to read his work regardless, it couldn't have been awful. On the other hand, neither using spell check nor catching obvious errors himself is probably enough to exclude him from the top echelons.

AJ

That's good advice.

I read my creations backwards, sentence by sentence.

AJ