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What is the longest running story on SOL?

richardshagrin
Updated:

Based on the date first posted what story has been continuing the longest. I suspect the winner(s) will be incomplete. Ones where the last posting was more than a year ago, with the yellow stain of incomplete probably are not eligible since they aren't continuing. However if one was first posted in 1999 and was completed in 2014 it probably meets the criteria for a winner. If there is any such story. If you want to mention a story that went on for years but never was finished, feel free. However the idea I started with was running, so it probably shouldn't be abandoned. I will give the benefit of the doubt to the DMan trilogy. Oh yeah, that kind of series counts. I am not looking for the most words, or most chapters, or the most postings. Start date to either last time there was a posting, if it isn't finished or marked incomplete, or current date, if the author is clearly going to continue it. I am willing to take anybody's word for intent to continue.

I suspect you may point out some new (to me) stories for me to read, or at least old ones to re-read I probably have forgotten. Thanks for mentioning stories that qualify. I will award one attaboy to the person who submits the winner. One awshucks wipes out 20 attaboys.

Replies:   Gauthier  cave jug
Ernest Bywater

I think this will be very hard to pin down because there are some posts with heaps of chapters posted that are lucky to be a thousand words long, and some that only post once a month. Then you have the soap operas that have lost their way and just wander around all over the place going nowhere at all.

LonelyDad
Updated:

Well, 'Arlene and Jeff' by RoustWriter has to be in the running. As of this month, it has been posted to regularly for nine years - 11/12/2006 to 11/20/2015.

Although 'Six Times a Day' by SpacerX is running a close second - 6/7/2007 to 11/2015.

ElDani

I agree with Ernest, "longest running" needs some kind of definition. In my opinion it would not be fair to compare a story which is being updated regularly for several years with another story which was started earlier but only receives sporadic updates from the author.

In the first case I would probably say Arlene and Jeff by RoustWriter. The author has been posting one chapter each Friday evening European time since the end of 2006. If he has ever missed a scheduled update I would be surprised.

There are other stories which have been active longer, such as 35 by Allen Wilson, but I don't know of any with regular updates that aren't months apart.

Lazeez Jiddan (Webmaster)
Updated:

I think the honour goes to Melissa's secret by Pookie.

Started on the site in 2003 and the last post was in 2014, although there was a six years break from 2005-2011.

However, Arlene and Jeff by RoustWriter has the longest uninterrupted run of 9 years.

Replies:   richardshagrin
richardshagrin

@Lazeez Jiddan (Webmaster)

I think Lazeez gets the attaboy. I am pretty sure Pookie is going to keep Melissa going. Based on history a gap of six years doesn't mean its over. I didn't hear a fat lady sing, so its not over.

Some of the runners up confound my normal impulse to wait until a story is complete before I start reading. Elsewhere other posters have indicated the stories get better as they go along as the author gets better with experience.

Nobody mentioned Magi's "Pete, a Young Man's Story" which started in March, 2003 and last posted in August 2011. It would be great if there were more, or some kind of outline were available to indicate where the story was going.

Best stories are kind of difficult to identify, but that's one of the best that went on for a long time and didn't make the finish line. Anyone else have a good one that they would love to see more of. Completed is a lot to ask, once its been yellow for a long time, but hope springs eternal.

If there is one you like a lot maybe you can work out where You would have taken the story to a happy ending, were you the author. And tell us about it. Some of us are looking for new, or old, stories to read.

I had a good guide occur, using Bing (Google's competition) to look up Storiesonline torture. Don't ask why I looked for that. What I got was a listing of a lot of good stories in score order, starting with one in the 9s and a bunch in the 8s. Some of which I hadn't read, and some that would be worth rereading because I don't remember a lot about them other than I read them before, long ago.

Searching through the front page doesn't give the stories in score order. Maybe its one of those Premier Subscriber goodies, but try it with some other tags if "torture" is one of your squicks, and see what you get.

Replies:   Pookie
Gauthier

@richardshagrin

If you accept a story spanning multiples book, I think the winner may be:
Summer Camp by Nick Scipio
Started 2002, still in progress.

richardshagrin

@Gauthier

Another attaboy! Yes, books one through four (incomplete and being updated slower than molasses in January) qualify as a single story to me. One hero, multiple ladies and sites (not all at the camp or in summer) but basically one coming of age story.

(For no good reason, Refuse Nick Scipio pops into my brain.)

Ernest Bywater
Updated:

On a side issue - the longest completed story is Deja Vu Ascendancy

http://storiesonline.net/s/57098:i

18,667 kb over 435 chapters posted between 15 July 2008 and 25/6/2009 (2nd biggest in size)

edit to add:

Arlene and Jeff - 13,810 kb in 358 chapters (3rd biggest in size)

http://storiesonline.net/s/50474/arlene-and-jeff

Melissa's Secret - 4,241 kb in 57 chapters

http://storiesonline.net/s/38248/melissas-secrets

Six Times a Day - 21,848 kb in 152 chapters (biggest in size), but I wonder how much of the size is the many images he has in it.

http://storiesonline.net/s/52707/six-times-a-day

Lazeez Jiddan (Webmaster)

@Ernest Bywater

Six Times a Day - 21,848 kb in 152 chapters (biggest in size), but I wonder how much of the size is the many images he has in it.


The system doesn't measure the images. 21 MB in text alone (3200 optimized images are 41 MB). Now it is the longest story on the site.

He started it somewhere else in 2004, so been going for 11 years already. One more chapter to go.

Mike Cropo's Wolves and Dragons four books on SOL are over 22 MB, the last book alone is 12.5 MB. I have no idea when he started writing. Book 5 is big too.

Replies:   Ernest Bywater
Ernest Bywater

@Lazeez Jiddan (Webmaster)

The system doesn't measure the images. 21 MB in text alone


Thanks for that information.

El_Sol

Excuse me...

What about stories that started in Usenet... before SOL and then made the hop here?

So if I add a chapter to A Master's Ring, I think I might be up there!

richardshagrin

@El_Sol

I think We should be SOL-centric, and use the date of the first post to SOL. I will admit lots of stories are longer running than SOL's start date in 1999 (if I got that right) but if I add a chapter to Canterbury tales by Chaucer I don't think I should claim a longest running story. Even if someone wrote a new chapter to the Old Testament which might be one of the older documents around, I feel there should be some limit.

However, please do add a chapter to A Master's Ring. It would be received with gratitude by many readers, here and other places. I wouldn't object if someone wanted to do research and find a long running story that appeared anywhere on the internet, or some other form of publication, I think some were mimeographed in the days of yore. It would be best if others could find the story to celebrate it too, but there is stuff on ASSTR that goes back years before.

Replies:   docholladay
docholladay
Updated:

@richardshagrin

It doesn't really matter to me as a reader. I read the stories here and other places (including the public library) for pleasure if its fiction or for new knowledge if its based on known facts at the time of the writing. Its funny how as new information is learned it changes the previous facts.

edited to add: I can't remember which book it was but one segment fits the change of knowledge to a T.

It was supposedly a professor who was asked why he never changed his test questions. The answer was "The questions don't change, but the answers change because of new knowledge and facts".

I might have miss quoted a portion of that as well.

BlinkReader

@El_Sol

Mr El_Sol, it's got that you mentioned this story (Master's ring).

It's one of unfinished stories that really are screaming for at least some kind of conclusion.
So please, tel us what we should do to encourage you to finish it, or at least put couple of new chapters in it?

Replies:   blacksash
blacksash

@BlinkReader

Second that. Within reason...

cave jug
Updated:

@richardshagrin

Hi there Sir,

I'm grateful you have raised this issue and give me a chance to put my "two bobs worth".

"Arlene and Jeff" has been mentioned as a perfect example of author loosing the plot and adding a chapter after chapter, while the story has lost the appeal long time ago. I have started to read it about two years ago, and since there was a lot posted I was very excited and said so to the author and by the rating it as a ten. Big mistake on my part, now I know.

There were couple very good reviews by you guys as well, which solidified my choice in selecting it on the first place.

I have noticed though, and I do speculate, there are no "current" review updates on this. I'd imagine , the negative critique is not a wise decision to make and serve to a colegue, since One can be on a receiving end of the same at any time.

I, as a reader, obnoxious as I am and not willing to be polite for politeness sake can say the following;

By the chapter 154, I had enough of tedious and repetitive narrative going nowhere, a good editing would have cut it in half and made it a really good yarn. To me, it became a total waste of time, and started to annoy me as a white supremacists tale, racist in an obvious manner, (all protagonists are Caucasian, the bad guys are Latinos and fat and lazy are African Americans.

In a country of around 140 different nationalities, Roust Writer could not add another nationality!

Combined with the flat narrative, repetitive and predictable dialogue even, I abandoned it in favor of Lazlo, penguintopia, G.Younger, Dual writer, Lubrican, aroslav,Jay Cantrell,Al Stiner, bluedragon, caineach,crumbly writer,gwreaserch, openbook, Richard king,rtfj,scotland the brave, volantrin, and a score more. I can honestly say, there are just as many missing in this list who have held my interest repeatedly.

What has happened after chapter 154, could not care less. It seems to me, this gentleman does not want to nor he knows how to finish it. He is going for the record, has moved "into" the world he has created and is happy with high scoring. I regret casting my vote so early. Promised so much, but for me , delivered so little.

I had a heated exchange with Ernest Bywater on a different topic on this new forum, but that did not stop me from reading his work and to be honest, the man knows how to write!

To finish of, the longest running story I'm yet to find.

Cheers.

Replies:   sejintenej  REP  sejintenej
sejintenej
Updated:

@cave jug

re: Arlene & Jeff


In a country of around 140 different nationalities, Roust Writer could not add another nationality!


Not logical: he is stuck at the top of a mountain with a family for neighbours but we don't know their colour, creed or much else. The various courier company reps come and go; thy have names but we know nothing about their colour or creed. ( I don't know about the US but over here minorities often are employed by such companies so these couriers could all be coloured, Latino - it is NOT relevant). Jeff has his team and occasionally members of the unit to which he belongs. We know quite a bit about some of them but no colour or creed. (The policy of the US Army is not unknown - it is likely that Jeff's unit includes people of many races and colours and creeds; so what?) There are the denizens of other worlds - of course because that is where Jeff's professional background lay and their origin is crucial to the story unless they have all been destroyed.

There are villains but we know nothing about their colour or creed - one has a Latino name I think.

Colour and religion has absolutely nothing to do with the story. If he brought in a coloured person then he would be accused of either pandering to the racists or claiming that coloured people are criminals. If he suggested that someone was yellow or otherwise Asian then Ulan Bator, Taipei, Beijing would be in uproar - it is totally irrelevant to the story. Jeff isn't even battling ISIS to bring in another nationality.

I have to wonder why this was even raised.

You state that the US has people of about 140 nationalities. Under UCPDC (a convention ratified by all countries save mainland China)the word "about" (and similar words) is accepted as allowing 10% error so you could be referring to 154 nationalities. The UN has 192 or 193 members (sources vary)so does the USA actually ban 38 nationalities? ;-)

You have got fed up with the story; that is your right and we are not going to hang, draw and quarter you for that.

Replies:   cave jug
cave jug
Updated:

@sejintenej

Well. first, thank you for the response to my assertion. You have made your points calmly and it seems objectively. I beg to differ though. While I was guessing the numbers of nationalities, his clan, and this is plain to me, IS white, the villains are Latinos, and Blacks are lazy. Sorry, you either have not read it or tacitly allow for it. Women are described many times and those descriptions leave no doubt of their race.

Why I'm sticking with this comment and opinion about this is based on emails exchanged with the author. He was initially enthusiastic regarding the general and quite positive praise for the beginning of his tale, however, as soon I've asked these questions, I have not heard from him close to a year now. Conclusion, either I'm close to the mark and uncomfortable to debate the issue, or ?????.

He is not stuck on the mountain, as you put it, countless trips to the shops, restaurants, lawyers, and car dealers shows quite the opposite. In those travels there had to be one or two, I do not know, good looking Italian, Puerto Rico or shock horror a Jewish women.

No, Jeff lives in the world of guns, polygamy, incest, and white supremacy I'm afraid.

And yes, this is going to go on for the length of his natural life, break all records, score quite high, (most readers will, rate it high based on a very good beginning and a polite request on his part). It will also be a longest drivel for a long time and a disappointment over all. You are right, I have got fed up with it for the reasons mentioned before.

There is often an disingenuous comment by few authors,that they write for their own pleasure, care not what readers think. I say, buffalo-bagels boys. If that was true, your creations would be still on your computers read only by yourselves.

As is, you've made it public, and if you like to take a good comment, be prepared for a negative one, however unjust.

sejintenej

@cave jug

This thing doesn't allow copying text. I hope we agree to differ on the race matter. As I wrote we simply don't know the races of the secondary characters so I suspend judgement. I accept that there are periods when nothing seems to matter and some sub plots I don't like. Be aware that there are currently three, perhaps four decent subplots going on. The prisoner dumped on the prison planet;the starship training; the discovery and destruction of one alien base - actual or not we don't yet know.

awnlee jawking

@cave jug


Jeff lives in the world of guns, polygamy, incest, and white supremacy I'm afraid.


You missed out male supremacist :)

The story is now very different to how it started, and I get the feeling the author continues only those storylines which attract explicit reader approval. Some rather dull sub-plots have been left hanging. I'm continuing to read the story but mainly for the alien sub-plot.

AJ

Replies:   cave jug
Pookie

@richardshagrin

I'll be back. ;-)

It's been a very hectic year, but I have been writing. Three chapters are ready to be posted, but I want to get a few more completed beforehand. Most likely I'll post the next one around xmas.

cave jug

@awnlee jawking

Thank you for your comment, and since I've confirmed, just now, you are a writer I'll give you ago soon.
The male supremacy is a theme in most stroke and erotic stories. The teleporting cat had way to many pages dedicated to it, know nothing of prison planet, and sub plots "development" after ch. 154 and I am better for it.
Discovering Lazlo, aroslav and particularly rereading some very good Lubrical fables, was rather rewarding.

Replies:   awnlee_jawking
cave jug

@Ernest Bywater

Thank you Ernest for pointing out "Deja Vu" story to me. That kind of tempo is very enjoyable, or I may be an odd one out here.
Cheers.

Replies:   Ernest Bywater
Ernest Bywater

@cave jug

Thank you Ernest for pointing out "Deja Vu" story to me. That kind of tempo is very enjoyable, or I may be an odd one out here


You're welcome. He's preparing a slightly cut down version for commercial sale which reads a lot better, so when you see it's available you should buy it. Some of the superfluous scenes are cut, and so is some of the technical data; thus it's a cleaner read.

awnlee_jawking

@cave jug


since I've confirmed, just now, you are a writer I'll give you ago soon.


You're welcome to read my stories on this site - that's what they're here for - but I use this place for experimental stories and although they're short, they tend not to be easy reads. The majority of my stories, the science fiction particularly, are elsewhere.

AJ

samuelmichaels
Updated:

@Gauthier


If you accept a story spanning multiples book, I think the winner may be:

Summer Camp by Nick Scipio

Started 2002, still in progress.


Not on SOL, but the Chronicles of Rapina, started in 1998, is still in progress. Chapter 75, "A Tail of Trolls", has just been posted.

Dicrostonyx

While not really a contender for longest, I recently noticed that two stories in The Swarm Cycle (universe created by Thinking Horndog), original posted in 2009 but flagged as incomplete, have started updating again. Both stories are by Col. Jack Harrison and are medium length.

I only mention these because it's another oddity that has to be accounted for when discussing longest running time. Do these stories count as six years, or do you just look at the periods of activity? Is this affected by the fact that they are part of a shared universe that has been running since 2007?

REP

@cave jug

Cavejug_1, RoustWriter has posted a total of 497 chapters in his story 'Jeff and Arlene'. I started reading the story a couple of years back and have read all of the chapters he has posted to date. My memory is not what it used to be, but from my recollection RoustWriter did not define the race of any of his characters.

I've known a lot of people in my life, and in many cases their names did not indicate their heritage. For example, Adrian, Ivan, Lance, Marsha, Richard, Susan, and Tom are the first names of some of my friends and coworkers. I challenge you to identify their race, and since none of these friends is White, I will give you a bit of help. They are Black, Chinese, Hindu, Latino, German, Japanese, and Russian, and if you pick Ivan as Russian you would be wrong. I also have a friend by the name of Carl Hernandez, but he is Black not Latino. Names do define heritage in many, but not all cases.

Yes a number of RoustWriter's villains had surnames that implied that they were members of races other than White. However I can also recall a number of villains in his story that seemed to me to be White.

You are right that RoustWriter will probably continue this story for as long as he is capable of doing so. Of course, the story is about the life experiences of a man beginning with the starting point of the story, and that can cover a very large number of chapters. There have been times when the story seemed to drift without direction, but that also happens in real life. Perhaps you would be more comfortable with shorter stories that do not attempt to cover the day-to-day activities of a character for say 30+ years.

Your reference to White Supremacy is interesting since you said in a later post that 'The male supremacy is a theme in most stroke and erotic stories.' RoustWriter's story definitely has a male supremacy theme, but I do not recall RoustWriter being derogatory to any race, which I understand is a common trait of White Supremacy.

REP

P.S. For you '?????' in one of your posts, perhaps RoustWriter hasn't communicated with you for he sees no sense in discussing his story with someone who seems to be strongly biased against it.

Replies:   Not_a_ID
shinerdrinker

He wrote in his blog post for today's chapter he basically announced he was continuing for about another year until the entire boards the ship and leaves Earth hunting for the alien race that created the ship and healer.

I plan to open-end the story when the Matthews Clan leaves earth in search of the race that built Ship's brain -- maybe a year or so more of weekly postings.


And leaving it open... maybe we can write our on chapters and adventures. Hmmm, maybe I have found my next story.

Not_a_ID

@REP

Cavejug_1, RoustWriter has posted a total of 497 chapters in his story 'Jeff and Arlene'. I started reading the story a couple of years back and have read all of the chapters he has posted to date. My memory is not what it used to be, but from my recollection RoustWriter did not define the race of any of his characters.

I've known a lot of people in my life, and in many cases their names did not indicate their heritage. For example, Adrian, Ivan, Lance, Marsha, Richard, Susan, and Tom are the first names of some of my friends and coworkers. I challenge you to identify their race, and since none of these friends is White, I will give you a bit of help. They are Black, Chinese, Hindu, Latino, German, Japanese, and Russian, and if you pick Ivan as Russian you would be wrong. I also have a friend by the name of Carl Hernandez, but he is Black not Latino. Names do define heritage in many, but not all cases.


Having grown up in the west, in particular within the Mormon Colonization footprint in what is generally referred to by the locals as "the Intermountain West" (Between the Rockies and Sierra-Nevada & Cascade Mountain ranges, I've always found this topic odd.

Maybe it was due to the overwhelming cultural homogeneity brought on by the predominant characteristic everyone focused on being "Mormon," or more importantly for the people claiming the title, "not Mormon" and the unjust treatment they experience as a persecuted minority. Admittedly, by the time I was aware of anything, my home town was 90+ percent white, and most of those who weren't were Native Americans.

Blacks who visited were "looked at" (and watched) not so much because anybody was concerned they might "do something" but because they don't normally see skin that dark in person, so it's something new and different, and so of course they're going to look. Once the novelty wears off, it's back to business as usual.

I imagine a white guy visiting a remote tribe in Africa would see much the same treatment, only because they'd never seen someone so pale.

But going back to the Mormon homogeneity thing, outside of large urban centers, such as say Salt Lake City where people may have managed to reconsolidate along national/ethnic lines, it doesn't exist in the rest of the region.

As the "Mormon Pioneer" consisted largely of converts from all over New England in particular(which had already mixed to some degree) and later most of Western Europe, and all of them being converts to the same faith. Those national and ethnic lines don't exist for their descendants. Being Mormon they of course know they have ancestors from _____ and ____ and probably a few other places, but it doesn't really mean much of anything to them.

Which is how a statement like "I'm a cultural Mormon" actually doesn't sound like a very strange thing for someone from that area to say if they've had dealings with the larger world.

In many respects it makes them the ultimate example of the melting pot, they don't have "5th Generation Itallians"(but may claim an Italian ancestor) or "3rd Generation Irish"(Although they may claim an Irish Great-Grandparent), or any other such thing along that line.

As it is a non-factor in their life and probably has been a non-factor for most of it, or any kind of factor in the life of most people they deal with, it baffles them when someone decides to make it one for them. "Wait, you mean being of Italian descent is still a 'thing' people get hung up on? Honestly, your nationality wasn't even considered in this, but if you want to make an issue of it, incorrect as you may be, I guess you're more than able to do so."

And the reality of true racial and ethnic equality, as somewhat alluded to by others here, is for the need to make those distinctions to be irrelevant. It shouldn't matter if the person has pink skin, yellow skin, black skin, purple skin, or neon green skin. What matters is what they can do, and how they conduct themselves in the course of their life.

I think someone even made a famous speech about that back in the 60's even. Something about people being judged not by the color of their skin, but by the content of their character.

But I guess if you want to worry about the racial composition of a cast in a work of fiction that has been fairly scrupulous about not mentioning race at all(intentionally or not on his part. I mean, wouldn't it be a kick in pants if it turned out Jeff and Arlene were both black? Or has that been ruled out because they "don't act black" in your view? I guess you could claim the lack of describing "the typical white response" to seeing a black in an area like the story is set in is grounds for your claim, but I'm dubious.), and going on screaming about racism, well...

Of course, I guess I better check my privilege at the door. And now I'm going to have to consider revisiting much of that series with the mental filter of "Is this narrative a believable telling of events surrounding a black family?" (Well, within the realm of suspension of disbelief anyhow)

As I recall the situation around the Matthews Clan at the start of the story, and some of the back story given, it isn't impossible for the main characters themselves to be Black. They could still just have just been some poor old white folk as well, but as I think on it further, I think the opening portion of the story probably works a bit better and makes a bit more sense if they are (black).

It does make some of the later stuff a bit more awkward to work through though, as a black guy and his family throwing lots of money around should have elicited some kind of comment they'd encounter as it defies the stereotype, and there is yet another worse stereotype to explain that, particularly once the polygamy got going.

But then, they may have learned to tune a lot of that out, and with where they were going most of the time, those businesses probably go to lengths to prevent such incidents from happening if forewarned as to their ability to pay. Money makes all kinds of things happen.

Replies:   richardshagrin  REP
richardshagrin

@Not_a_ID

I think having a green skin would make a big difference how you were treated. Likely you would be from a different planet.

Mormons put a lot of emphasis on discovering their ancestors. I believe they can "save" them for the Mormon faith, retroactively, so they want to be able to find out about them so they can be saved. That may not be the same as being nth generation of some ethnicity, but they tend to be very aware of far more ancestors than an average American.

Replies:   Not_a_ID
Not_a_ID

@richardshagrin

Mormons put a lot of emphasis on discovering their ancestors. I believe they can "save" them for the Mormon faith, retroactively, so they want to be able to find out about them so they can be saved. That may not be the same as being nth generation of some ethnicity, but they tend to be very aware of far more ancestors than an average American.


They can't save them that way, just be provided the option of being saved, and even that is a bit of a misnomer within the context of their faith. As they believe in the resurrection and the millennial reign of Christ on Earth, everybody is going to get the option one way or the other anyhow. The reason for pursuing it sooner rather than later is so they don't have to wait.

There is a bunch of other things involved, but from the perspective of unbelieving nonmembers it's handwavey mumbo jumbo that basically boils down to if Billy Joe Bob drops dead tomorrow and someone ignores all the (poorly enforced) protocols in place (supposed to be familial descendents of the person(s) involved to submit their name for such work to be done in the first place, and the closest living family members are supposed to be consulted first) and gets his saving rights performed for him (by proxy) as soon as possible after his death. Billy Joe Bob still gets his chance to accept or decline the work that was done in his name in the afterlife. So if he remains dead set against being a Mormon in the afterlife, then he won't be one.

As to awareness of their ancestry, some are more aware of it than others. But it still goes back to it being more of an academic interest for most of them rather than upon discovering the Grandpa James came from Scotland they must now go about demonstrating their "Scottish pride" or anything of the like.

Within their social circles where your ancestry came from has exactly zero impact on treatment received, if it ever comes up at all. They don't care if it's the British Isles or the shores of either the Adriatic or Baltic Seas that your ancestors came from, it's all the same to them.

Yes, I know I described the general footprint for "Caucasian" and it was somewhat deliberate. Visual phenotypes are a pain that way. But even within the "Caucasian" grouping, try going to NYC or a number of other urban centers and try telling the guy in Little Italy that he isn't much different from an Irishman, or vice versa. Better yet, tell them they're not much different from a Frenchman or Englishman. At least the Italians, Irish and French still mostly identify as Catholic so you might get some slack there, but compare them to someone from England....

Replies:   sejintenej
REP

@Not_a_ID

Not_a_ID, I agree with you wholeheartedly.

I believe Cavejug_1 is wrong about RoustWriter's story, but I have to agree with him that we do not have racial equality in the US or in other parts of the world. My personal opinion is people identifying themselves with a particular race is the prime factor in the continuation of racial discrimination. If the citizens of the US and other countries ever get to the point where we were to identify ourselves as Americans or another nationality instead of Arab, Black, Hindu, Latino, White, or some other racial group, I believe racial discrimination would fade away. It may take a hundred or more years once that state were reached, but it would fade away.

If you examine history, you will find that every race has been discriminated against by another race in some part of the world. Constantly bringing up what was done to your ancestors is a second major factor in the continuation of racial discrimination. No one likes having their face rubbed in what another member of their race did X hundred years ago. Those actions where a product of the society that existed at that time. That doesn't make the actions right or excusable in terms of our current society, but no one wants to be blamed for another person's actions that they had no control over.

What people fail to think about is that 300 years from now, we are going to be judged by our descendants based on the society in existence at that time. I wonder how they will crucify us for our actions today.

REP

sejintenej

@cave jug

and started to annoy me as a white supremacists tale, racist in an obvious manner, (all protagonists are Caucasian, the bad guys are Latinos and fat and lazy are African Americans.
In a country of around 140 different nationalities, Roust Writer could not add another nationality!

Twaddle and more twaddle. Are you trying to tell me that there is not a single black or oriental or latino officer in the US army? Jeff could be of any race and he could have married a woman of any race. (I have acquaintences whose marriage is infinitely more extreme - she is an Israeli Jewess of Caucasian extraction and her husband is a Moslem Arab from the Lebanon).
Are you trying to tell me that after army training there is not a single black, oriental or latino who is capable of developing something which a company owner is not eager to buy? I don't believe it.
Just look at REP's comment about those he works with; at least he doesn't ask which are directors several levels above him - they could be ;-)

Others have commented that there has been no local comment / backlash about non-whites living in the area. Why should there be? I have lived with "colour" for over 50 years. I am white of part French, part Scandinavian extraction brought up in Britain. My wife is officially classified as coloured simply because she inherited the Mediterranean tan of her 100% Italian father, other ancestors being French, Irish and English. We have never had any question or comment (except after a long holiday a distant acquaintance commented in all ignorance on her "suntan"). Is the USA so backward?

As to the story I don't care about the colour / race / religion of the participants. I DO care about how they behave and I haven't yet read anything to be too concerned about - they are a damned sight better than most folks (though they don't seem to like Johnny A or Yanni)

Replies:   Dicrostonyx
sejintenej

@Not_a_ID

Yes, I know I described the general footprint for "Caucasian" and it was somewhat deliberate. Visual phenotypes are a pain that way. But even within the "Caucasian" grouping, try going to NYC or a number of other urban centers and try telling the guy in Little Italy that he isn't much different from an Irishman, or vice versa. Better yet, tell them they're not much different from a Frenchman or Englishman. At least the Italians, Irish and French still mostly identify as Catholic so you might get some slack there, but compare them to someone from England....

Wow. You are looking for trouble so have some ammunition.
Genetic sampling across Europe started by finding that the 1000 women of all colours and races in the sample were descended from 11 women who came out of Africa from the Horn to what is now Aden. The researchers then developed the system further and decided that the descent of the thousand was actually from just four women.

Next time you are in the dock try telling the judge that three of any sample of jurors are blood relatives (oh, and tell the judge that there is a 1 in 4 likelihood that he / she is related to you).

As for Italians, French and Irish identifying as Catholic that is dying out rapidly in their home country. OK in North America they may keep the old customs like many Indians keep their old culture in Britain whilst it has evolved in India

Dicrostonyx

@sejintenej

We have never had any question or comment (except after a long holiday a distant acquaintance commented in all ignorance on her "suntan"). Is the USA so backward?


Short answer: yes.

Long answer: the US uses a different system for defining "race" than most of the rest of the world does, and this can be traced, in a large part, to the importance of slavery in the early economic development of the country.

Until the early 20th century, European and British academia believed that some societies were better than others, and that they followed a development path similar to evolution. It was also believed that race was connected to culture. The belief was that the Ancient Greeks were the perfect human race, that contemporary Europeans were slightly devolved from that state, that North Africans, Middle-Easterns, and East Indians were slightly below Europeans, and so on.

Under this system, race was defined primarily by the shape of the skull and the length of the nose, not by skin colour. The reason why North Africans, East Indians, and such were seen as only slightly below Europe in terms of culture is because they are all Caucasian (or Caucasoid) races. Notably, skin tone was irrelevant.

In the US, however, race is all about skin tone. In general, the lighter a person's skin, the better off they are. As I suggested above, this is likely linked to the fact that the original settlers of the US were from Northern Europe (very pale skin) and the slaves were African (very dark skin), with very little in-between.

It has been established, for example, that many people immigrating to the US either lied about their country of origin, or were assumed to be lying by officials, based on the colour of their skin. Genetic analysis in the past few decades has shown that a lot of people don't have the national backgrounds that they had thought. Someone whose skin was a bit lighter at immigration might have passed for Italian or Greek, while someone with darker skin might be recorded as Jamaican, regardless of actual origin.

Any question about how backwards the US is regarding race should be answered just by thinking about the term "Latino". Imagine what would happen in Europe if someone suggested that someone who is partly Spanish or Italian wasn't a real "white" person. In the US, there's a presidential candidate running on a platform of intolerance... and winning.

richardshagrin

Prejudice, its not just about race. The US had periods where "No Irish need apply" or other specific ethnic groups who were from different parts of Europe were discriminated against.

Catholics, Jews, and other religions (Mormons for example) had discrimination problems. Various Protestant groups didn't like each other, if there were no other ethnic or racial minorities to look down on.

I went to Ballard High School in Seattle in the late 1950s. The Swedes and Norwegians were unpleasant to each other and made "jokes" about how stupid the other group members were. And where blacks were few, or Jews virtually unknown, discrimination would be against American Indians, or Mexican Americans or whatever group was available to be looked down upon by even marginally richer citizens.

There seems to be a need for an "in group" to look down on some other group or groups. And those groups tend to return the disfavor.

Not_a_ID

@richardshagrin

Prejudice, its not just about race. The US had periods where "No Irish need apply" or other specific ethnic groups who were from different parts of Europe were discriminated against.

Catholics, Jews, and other religions (Mormons for example) had discrimination problems. Various Protestant groups didn't like each other, if there were no other ethnic or racial minorities to look down on.

The Irish issue is complicated, but largely revolved around their being so overwhelmingly Catholic demographically speaking. Which is also how the Italians tended to run into issues. It was a religious issue that by dint of (perceived) demographics in those countries, painted their nationality with a particularly unpleasant brush.

They really, REALLY, didn't trust the papacy in the 19th century, and at times there was hysteria about the papacy trying to take over the Government of the USA. Something upright and God fearing Protestants simply could not stand for. A lot of that anti-papist mindset still reverberates today: See Mr. Trump.

Of course, some of that anti-Catholic sentiment wasn't exactly unearned by various parts of the Catholic Church or its members. You have to remember that many of the Americans in the country by then either had emigrated themselves, or were of fairly recent descent from people who left Europe due to lack of opportunity. A lack of opportunity that many suffered either due to belonging to the wrong faith, or lack of the proper connections. Either way, as powerful as the Catholic Church was in most of Europe, it received the blame, and those people carried their grievance over to States and passed it on to their descendants. (Doesn't make returning the favor on others generations later any better, however)

People often overlook that groups like the KKK didn't just hate blacks, they absolutely despised Catholics too. Being either would be grounds for them to turn your life into hell on earth, although the white Catholic would normally see better treatment in public.

Mormons win the religious persecution prize in the U.S. however. They're the only ones who had a governor issue an Executive Order that made it legal to kill Mormons in his state during the 1830's, and it remained on the books there(Missouri) until decades after World War 2. The other things that went on involving the Mormons notwithstanding, some of which could give them grounds for contention on their own as well.

Replies:   sejintenej
Dicrostonyx
Updated:

@richardshagrin


Prejudice, its not just about race.


I'm certainly not suggesting that prejudice is just about race, or that Europe is unprejudiced. All I was talking about was that when talking about race the US seems to be -- at least historically -- more concerned with skin colour alone than other factors.

@Not_a_ID

For that matter, when JFK ran for president the fact that he was Catholic was a major problem during his campaign, from both sides. Catholics were concerned that he was putting personal ambition ahead of his faith, while many in the Protestant majority felt that since all Catholics are under the direction of the Pope, the constitutional separation of the church and the state would be compromised.

And that was 1960!

sejintenej

@richardshagrin

The Swedes and Norwegians were unpleasant to each other and made "jokes" about how stupid the other group members were.

RS; I think that there may be an actual historical reason for the hatred of the Norwegians for the Swedes.

Firstly Norway was ruled by Sweden for a long time and even in the last century changed its language to rid it of Swedish influences ¤¤

Secondly, during WWII if a Norwegian fled across the border into Sweden he was often arrested and handed over to the German SS. Nuff' said?

When I first went over there there were few places (if any) which would accommodate a German and many would not allow Swedes a place to sleep.

¤¤ I had an embarrassing ten minutes with a shopkeeper in Bergen after my first job. I had used the old Norwegian word for seven not realising it had been changed - we simply couldn't understand each other (I think he understood but was making a point). When he found out my nationality the atmosphere reversed completely; he was delighted that the British aircraft blew up a German ammunition ship beside the Tyskebryggen destroying his father's shop. I got lunch and a tour round the town on that.

sejintenej

@Not_a_ID

They're the only ones who had a governor issue an Executive Order that made it legal to kill Mormons in his state during the 1830's, and it remained on the books there(Missouri) until decades after World War 2.

I think it is still illegal for a Welshman to remain in Crewe after sunset and I think it is Hereford where it is legal to kill a Welshman in a specified manner ( could be a bow and arrow or a mace - I forget)
Oh, yes. A small town in Northern England recently signed a peace agreement with Germany to end a formal state of war!

Replies:   Dicrostonyx
Dicrostonyx
Updated:

@sejintenej


I think it is still illegal for a Welshman to remain in Crewe after sunset and I think it is Hereford where it is legal to kill a Welshman in a specified manner ( could be a bow and arrow or a mace - I forget)


Everyone loves their silly little local laws! One where I live, much quoted by a local medieval recreation group, is that "all gentlemen must wear a sword after dark if accompanying a lady". Of course, given when the law dates to, "gentleman" refers to the military definition, which is that of "an officer of the rank of lieutenant or above".

Regardless, these forgotten laws are all irrelevant. One of the basic precepts of modern law is that archaic laws do not need to be individually struck down; if a newer law conflicts with an older one, the older one is considered void. So since it is illegal to kill anyone, the Welsh law is void regardless of your choice of weapon.


Oh, yes. A small town in Northern England recently signed a peace agreement with Germany to end a formal state of war!


The Berwick-upon-Tweed situation is just a popular story. Although the Borough was technically separate from both Scotland and England, it was still a part of the UK, which is a sovereign state. Thus, the treaties of the UK apply to all member states.

You can tell that the Berwick-upon-Tweed story is fiction because of the number of different versions of the story there are around. The common version of the story is that the war was with Russia due to the wording of the peace treaty after the Crimean War.

The German issue actually does have a bit of merit, logically, but in a different way. The theory is that since WWII was declared between the UK and Germany, but ended with the occupation of Germany and dissolution of a single German government, then technically the state of war was ongoing, even though the war had ended. Under this theory, the reunification of Germany meant that the country with which the war had originally been declared suddenly existed again, so the war was still in effect.

The good news is that this was taken into account. The Treaty on the Final Settlement with Respect to Germany, signed in 1990, formally established peace between Germany and the UK. In series 3, QI discussed this oddity: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gt2a0Jt6QTA.

Replies:   sejintenej
sejintenej
Updated:

@Dicrostonyx


The Berwick-upon-Tweed situation is just a popular story. Although the Borough was technically separate from both Scotland and England, it was still a part of the UK, which is a sovereign state.


It didn't stop them having a right shindig though.

We have the situation of the Stannary Parliament. Technically Kernow is a Dukedom and the Parliament has the right to decide that laws passed in Westminster shall not apply to Cornwall (Bill of Rights 1688).

I did a Freedom of Information enquiry and got a detailed and updated list of every law still valid. For example, of our famous Magna Carta only one clause remains unchanged.

Some archaic laws remain effective - there was a court case a year or so ago involving a 1600's law which some bright spark had unearthed on which to base a prosecution.

A taxi driver may not leave his vehicle; he is permitted to urinate beside the offside rear wheel provided that he remain touching the vehicle. At least they have at last got rid of the requirement that a hackney cab driver carry hay for the horse.

All whales washed ashore belong to the sovereign - she needs the bone for her stays!

Then we have the Royal situation. Val le Grice was right in claiming that Charles was prohibited by law from marrying the second time - Blair simply over-ruled the law by reference to "human rights". Surely it is my "human right" to take a second and third wife!

That is the UK. There was an arrest in a Florida town (I suspect Daytona) of a man who went for his morning jog. Under city ordinances you can jog on east-west streets (or the opposite) and he was on a wrong directional street!

Oh what fun one can have with laws.

prsptr

What about Filmore's "Oil of Roses" 2005-2015. There were a couple of breaks while he tried to pay the bills and a couple of novel length chapters took awhile to write.

Kirby

Replies:   anim8ed
anim8ed

@prsptr

Not to mention Book 2 which is currently in progress

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