Home « Forum « Author Hangout

Forum: Author Hangout

What IS the definition of Incest?

TechnicDragon

I've been reading various entries regarding the different issues others have had with Lulu and Amazon when it comes to publishing. The last issue I read about concerns the content of my future stories, not anything currently on the shelf.

So, what I have planned is sex between the main character and his step-sister, and later between the main character and his step-mother. Biologically speaking, the main character is of no relation to either of the females. However, he grew up with both of them. Would this constitute a red flag concerning publication with the previously mentioned companies?

Replies:   Zom  Not_a_ID
Ernest Bywater

This link is the guidelines for selling through the Lulu Market Partners:

http://connect.lulu.com/t5/ISBN-Distribution/eBook-Retail-Distribution-Guidelines/ta-p/33340

They also have a more detailed section on content at:

http://www.lulu.com/about/legal#guidelines

which states:

Appendix A. Lulu Content Policy and Guidelines

REVISED: February 13, 2013

Items sold through the Lulu Site must follow the content policy and guidelines detailed below. Producers or sellers of content are expected to conduct proper research to ensure that the content sold through the Lulu Site is in compliance with all local, state, national, and international laws. If Lulu determines that the content is prohibited, we may summarily remove or alter it without returning any fees the listing has incurred. Lulu reserves the right to make judgments about whether or not content is appropriate.

Pornography- X-rated text, photographs and movies, home porn, hard-core material that depict graphic sexual acts, and amateur porn are not permitted.

Offensive Material- Items such as crime-scene pictures, videos, pictures and videos of cruelty to animals, and extremely disturbing materials. Lulu reserves the right to determine the appropriateness of content sold on our Site. Also, be aware of cultural differences and sensitivities. Some materials may be acceptable in one country, but unacceptable in another. Please keep in mind our global community of customers.

Illegal Items- Content sold through the Lulu Site must adhere to all applicable laws. This includes the sale of content by individuals outside the United States. Some content that may not be sold include any products that may lead to the production of an illegal item or illegal activity.

Items that Infringe Upon an Individual's Privacy- Lulu holds personal privacy in the highest regard. Therefore, Content that infringes upon, or has potential to infringe upon, an individual's privacy are prohibited. Additionally, the sale of marketing lists (bulk e-mail lists, direct-mail marketing lists, etc.) is prohibited.

Rights of Publicity- Celebrity images and/or celebrity names cannot be used for commercial purposes without permission of the celebrity or their management. This includes unauthorized celebrity images.

Public Domain and Other Non-Exclusive Content- Some types of content, such as public domain content, may be free to use by anyone, or may be licensed for use by more than one party. We will not accept content that is freely available on the web unless you are the copyright owner of that content. For example, if you received your content from a source that allows you and others to re-distribute it, and the content is freely available on the web, we will not accept it for sale through Lulu. We do accept public domain content, however we may request that you provide proof that your submitted material is actually in the public domain and may choose to not sell a public domain title if its content is undifferentiated or barely differentiated from one or more books already available through our service or available through other retail sites


Two aspects to keep in mind are:

a. One of the Lulu Market Partners is Amazon, as well as Kobo, Apple, B&N - so if you choose to go through the partners you have a wider market just from Lulu. But each takes their won cut of sales through them.

b. If someone complains to Lulu about your content they discuss it with you. Also, any funds they have from sales to date are still sent to you.

From what I've heard about Amazon they don't discuss complaints, they simply pull your book, and then withhold any monies they still have. Not having had that situation with Amazon (I don't use them direct) I can only go by hearsay on that.

Replies:   Bondi Beach
Zom
Updated:

@TechnicDragon

Would this constitute a red flag


The definition of incest varies around the world. In some jurisdictions, sexual acts between step-relations is considered to be incest. Also, in a some jurisdictions sexual relations with or between adopted children is considered incest. There does not need to be any blood tie, only a legal one, for it to be incest.

Given that, if Amazon etc. take a worst case view, then incest is any sex acts between any members of a legal extended family, except those that are married to each other of course.

Replies:   Crumbly Writer
Not_a_ID

@TechnicDragon

In which context, psychological, medical, legal, or all of the above?

Keep in mind, the legal definition varies by jurisdiction, as the infamous "Can I marry my cousin?" question would attest. In most places a 1st Cousin is incest, while in others, it isn't. In some places, even being more distantly related than 1st cousins may not be enough.

Further complicating it is the legal definition can vary on determining your relationship, some will go "by blood" while others may go by who has parental rights, and the third option is a combination of both.

From a Psychology standpoint, my understanding is the main concern is usually immediate family, with particular emphasis on "parental figures" which in more extreme interpretation may include siblings, neighbors(if you see them as psuedo-parents), grandparents, etc. Bascially anybody who you view as holding some form of "parental rights" over you.

Psychology isn't so much concerned about the biology of the relationship, they're concerned with the perception of the relationship. The usual concern in Psychology when it comes to incest is the power disparity that is likely to ensue, in particular when it involves a parent/child dynamic, but can also come into play with the older/younger sibling dynamic as well. Usually the older children are "authority figures" within the household as well(at least, in larger families), so there are special emotional/psychological "risk factors" involved in such a sibling relationship that goes beyond the social issues linked to incest. Another factor in all this is the age of the persons involved, as that also plays with the "power dynamic." A 20-something child "getting it on" with their 40/50-something (step-)parent is likely to be not much of an issue, while the same thing happening when the (step-)child is 11 would be an entirely different dynamic at play.

Ditto for the children, a 28YO Brother getting it on with his 25YO (step-)sister isn't going to be "too big of a deal" in most psychology circles so long as it was consensual(and "protection was used"), but if the same thing happened 13 years earlier, it would see a lot more attention to check for indications of abuse...

Now strictly speaking medically, their main concern is the biology, although they'll give the psych factors consideration as well. Their main concern is going to be on the biology side however, so step-parents, step-siblings, as well as adoptive parents/siblings are largely fair game although it'll raise eyebrows all the same.

Ernest Bywater

@Not_a_ID

In which context, psychological, medical, legal, or all of the above?


And what the sites objects to is different again.

Replies:   Not_a_ID
Not_a_ID
Updated:

@Ernest Bywater

And what the sites objects to is different again.


And the legal side can be weird in other circumstances. Evidently in California, at least as of 2000, it was considered incest if you married your cousin. But you could marry your step-sibling, or even your (ex-)step-parent if you wanted to.

I think one interpretation went so far as claiming it was technically possible for someone to marry their adoptive parent or adopted siblings if so inclined, as the California legal code was written to the medical/biology specification. So long as they weren't a blood relation within so many generations, they're fair game. Of course, they had/have other laws on the books in regards to inappropriate relationships with minors, so if some of those involved are not adults, the State of California still had recourse it could pursue.

But as Ernest Bywater can attest to, there are other legal oddities out there. Such as a 15YO being able to walk around topless in public, but anyone who takes pictures(haha security cameras), or goes into any significant level of descriptive detail regarding the event might find themselves being investigated by the police(in the same town the teen was in) for child pornography.

Crumbly Writer

@Zom

The definition of incest varies around the world.

While that's true in general, it doesn't apply to publishing via large sites like Amazon, lulu or smashwords, which largely operate outside out local government intervention. In order to do that, they institute the 'least offensive' rules, meaning NO sex involving minors in any form, and No incest, though descriptions of someone torturing and dismembering someone is perfectly fine.

Since they don't monitor everything submitted, people flout these rules all the time, but as Ernest said, they can and will yank your book, pocketing any unpaid monies earned, if they receive as little as a single complaint, and there is NO review process allowed, whether you were justified or not!

However, I'm unsure whether TechnicalDragon was actually planning to publish, or merely to post on SOL.

In either case, incest is roughly defined as family members having sex together--regardless of age. It doesn't matter whether they're blood related or not, as extended families have been around for quite a long time now.

I published a couple of incest stories which never encountered any trouble. The first, "The Catalyst" series, established an interest in the brother and sister which was only acted upon mid-way into the second book, so anyone weirded out by the subject wouldn't have stuck around for the second book (a nice save route to take). The next, "The Cuckoo's Progeny", is touted as a 'Pseudo-Incest' story, as the characters aren't, strictly speaking, human, or related in any way to their parents.

So far, I haven't been called on either story.

In short, you don't want to flaunt such a story. By taking common sense cautions, you can mitigate your risks. However, you'll notice several authors who offer dozens of clear violations, but they're special cases. Essentially, they upload short (around 10,000 words, whereas novelletes are 30,000 words and novels are typically 60,000+ words) every month, and if they're books get pulled and they get banned, they simply create a new user ID and publish all new stories--so they aren't hung up on the cautions the rest of us aren't. :(

Don't know if that helps, but that's how the Amazon cookie crumbles (pun partially intended).

Replies:   Dominions Son
Bondi Beach
Updated:

@Ernest Bywater


Pornography- X-rated text,


I hadn't focused on this. What text is "x-rated," do you suppose?

Note: I'm not asking for a personal opinion on what constitutes x-rated text, i.e., pornography. I'm asking a serious question about what Lulu and their partners consider x-rated: is cocksucking OK? Fucking? Sodomy? Snuff? Bestiality? Just kissing, no more? Hand on the outside of blouse?

Anyone have any knowledge of or experience with this clause?

EDIT TO ADD: I can second what others have said about how closely retailers enforce their rules about, for example, incest. They don't review everything, that's for sure.

bb

Dominions Son

@Crumbly Writer

The next, "The Cuckoo's Progeny", is touted as a 'Pseudo-Incest' story, as the characters aren't, strictly speaking, human, or related in any way to their parents.


Technically, neither not being human or not being biologically related to their human parents leads inevitably to the conclusion that they aren't true siblings.

Replies:   Crumbly Writer
Ernest Bywater

@Bondi Beach

What text is "x-rated," do you suppose?


A good question I can't give a specific answer to. However, as regards to what Lulu accepts, I can only say all the finished stories I've written or am involved with are available as epubs and print books on my Lulu site. That includes all the stories written by me and Cazna, and Shiloh I worked on with The Scot. That includes the story Debt Collection which includes BDSM, sodomy, bestiality, incest, and a whole lot more:

http://storiesonline.net/s/52470/debt-collection

The only issues I've had with Lulu have been technical and one content complaint which they took no action on, other than telling me about it. The content complaint was about some of my comments on church doctrine in The Same Sex marriage Debacle and the technical issues resolve around the Creation Date in the e-pubs because I'm in Australia and their verification software sometimes has an issue if I lodge an e-pub with a date in their future.

Some years ago Amazon did pich up a lot of stories off the Lulu site and they included Cazna's Power Tool which Amazon have no issue with still advertising on their site, despite my many past request they pull it.

http://storiesonline.net/s/52276/power-tool

Replies:   Crumbly Writer
Switch Blayde

@Bondi Beach

What text is "x-rated," do you suppose?


It's a vague statement that gives them the ability to delete anything they want to.

Crumbly Writer

@Bondi Beach

I hadn't focused on this. What text is "x-rated," do you suppose?

Note: I'm not asking for a personal opinion on what constitutes x-rated text, i.e., pornography. I'm asking a serious question about what Lulu and their partners consider x-rated: is cocksucking OK? Fucking? Sodomy? Snuff? Bestiality? Just kissing, no more? Hand on the outside of blouse?

It's a fuzzy line, as virtually anything by a mainstream publisher is OK, while things by small-time freelancers are immediately suspect, but the delineation tends to fall under the nebulous 'I'll know it when I see it' clause. If it's seen as 'literary', it's acceptable, whereas if it appears pornographic (no redeemable social value), it's not.

Essentially, the rule banning pornography allows these companies to do whatever the hell they want. If it's a big seller, they can simply say, "It's clearly not pornographic, while if it only sell a few hundred copies, they can likewise claim "It's obviously pornographic". It's a term that's impossible to enforce objectively, allowing the companies to make subjective judgments based on their own business interests.

Crumbly Writer

@Dominions Son

Technically, neither not being human or not being biologically related to their human parents leads inevitably to the conclusion that they aren't true siblings.

Hence my use of the term "Pseudo-Incest", which I include on the cover of the book.

Replies:   Dominions Son
Crumbly Writer

@Ernest Bywater

A good question I can't give a specific answer to. However, as regards to what Lulu accepts, I can only say all the finished stories I've written or am involved with are available as epubs and print books on my Lulu site. That includes all the stories written by me and Cazna, and Shiloh I worked on with The Scot. That includes the story Debt Collection which includes BDSM, sodomy, bestiality, incest, and a whole lot more:

I've harped on this before, but the 'pornography' clause is more likely to be invoked when someone unexpectantly encounters gay porn than it does with straight porn. I know several gay authors who've had works yanked, but have heard of only a few writers of incest who've had their works yanked. Again, that's the problem with purely subjective evaluations. They only get invoked by people when they trigger their specific button issues.

Ernest Bywater

@Crumbly Writer

I know several gay authors who've had works yanked, but have heard of only a few writers of incest who've had their works yanked.


Well, some of the stories in what I've posted include homosexual or gay themes, and some involve incest - but they've not been pulled or objected to. Maybe it's something to do with how well they're written. I don't know, but the following are posted at Lulu, but not on the market partners:

Debt Collection - Tags: Ma/Fa, mt/ft, Ma/ft, mt/Fa, Fa/Fa, ft/ft, Fa/ft, Ma/mt, mt/mt, Mult, Consensual, NonConsensual, Reluctant, Coercion, Slavery, BiSexual, Heterosexual, Fiction, Slut Wife, Revenge, Incest, Mother, Son, Brother, Sister, Daughter, Cousins, Niece, Aunt, Nephew, InLaws, BDSM, DomSub, MaleDom, Spanking, Rough, Humiliation, Swinging, Gang Bang, Group Sex, Orgy, Harem, First, Oral Sex, Anal Sex, Masturbation, Fisting, Sex Toys, Bestiality, Pregnancy, Cream Pie, Exhibitionism, Size

Revenge for the School - Tags: Ma/Ma, Mult, NonConsensual, Rape, Gay, TransGender, Shemale, Fiction, Vignettes, Revenge, Rough, Sadistic, Torture, Oral Sex, Anal Sex, Violent

Naughty Jo - Tags: Ma/Ma, NonConsensual, Rape, Gay, TransGender, Shemale, Fiction, Vignettes, Light Bond, Humiliation, Oral Sex, Anal Sex

...............

Mind you, anything you let Lulu share with the Market Partners like Amazon and B&N can be pulled from all sites if a complaint is made via Amazon, B&N, Apple, Kobo etc. But anything not shared has different rules applied.

CW, with the ones you know were pulled, were they shared with the Market Partners?

Replies:   Crumbly Writer
Dominions Son

@Crumbly Writer

Hence my use of the term "Pseudo-Incest", which I include on the cover of the book.


But if they were still true siblings, that would be actual incest, not pseudo incest.

If per your story, they aren't true siblings, that would be pseudo incest, but the specific facts you cited don't make that distinction.

Replies:   Crumbly Writer
awnlee jawking

@Crumbly Writer

I've harped on this before, but the 'pornography' clause is more likely to be invoked when someone unexpectantly encounters gay porn than it does with straight porn.


FWIW the UK government has decided that literature isn't pornographic. They've forced ISPs to introduce pornography opt in/out for video and image websites but text websites aren't considered porn.

AJ

Replies:   Crumbly Writer
Crumbly Writer

@Ernest Bywater

CW, with the ones you know were pulled, were they shared with the Market Partners?

I only have limited experience with Lulu, but a long history with Amazon. Aside from the couple people I personally know who've had stories pulled, most of what I know is from people discussing the issue online.

The main point, in my humble opinion, is that it's a matter of perception. If you market gay stories primarily to gays, you'll probably be OK. It's when you present kiddyporn, or gay sexuality, to little old ladies unprepared for it, they'll complain. However, fans of the medium generally won't complain no matter how extreme the violation.

By the way, got enough tags? Your description might be easier to read if you just settle for "Incest", rather than listing each and every version of it. :)

Replies:   docholladay
Crumbly Writer
Updated:

@Dominions Son

If per your story, they aren't true siblings, that would be pseudo incest, but the specific facts you cited don't make that distinction.


You'll have to read the story to find out. ;)

Seriously, though, since the story is a discovery adventure, stating the true nature of their relationship would be a spoiler (he says, already having given too much away).

Replies:   Dominions Son
Crumbly Writer

@awnlee jawking

FWIW the UK government has decided that literature isn't pornographic. They've forced ISPs to introduce pornography opt in/out for video and image websites but text websites aren't considered porn.

While the Canadian and Australian laws of a few years ago specifically target literature, and in the Australian version, go even farther, targeting the authors rather than the publishers who are better equipped to defend themselves.

Dominions Son

@Crumbly Writer

You'll have to read the story to find out


I am reading it. :)

Replies:   Crumbly Writer
Crumbly Writer

@Dominions Son

I am reading it. :)

Good. In that case, you can tell me how it turns out in the end.

docholladay

@Crumbly Writer

The main point, in my humble opinion, is that it's a matter of perception.


That has to be a huge factor with so many variables we will never see a set standard. The standard will always be based on local/regional and other social variations. What is acceptable in one setting might and probably will be totally illegal in another.
I kind of prefer the golden rule guidelines myself since it can fit just about any situation.

Replies:   richardshagrin
richardshagrin

@docholladay

I kind of prefer the golden rule

Is that the one where the guy who has the gold makes the rules?

Replies:   docholladay
docholladay

@richardshagrin

Is that the one where the guy who has the gold makes the rules?


Nope the one that goes: "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you."

Sure makes it simple. All I have to do is ask if I would want the same thing done to me.

awnlee jawking

@docholladay

Unfortunately reciprocity isn't a complete solution because there exceptions. Men get women pregnant despite women being unable to return the favour.

AJ

Replies:   Not_a_ID  docholladay
Not_a_ID

@awnlee jawking

Unfortunately reciprocity isn't a complete solution because there exceptions. Men get women pregnant despite women being unable to return the favour.


Clearly the solution to this is everyone becomes a fully functioning hermaphrodite. I'll wait and let others volunteer to go first. :)

Replies:   awnlee jawking
docholladay
Updated:

@awnlee jawking


Unfortunately reciprocity isn't a complete solution because there exceptions. Men get women pregnant despite women being unable to return the favour.


True, but we are both responsible for the baby. Both have to choose whether its worth that risk or not. A man can choose to use a rubber or not. A woman chooses whether or not to use one of the birth control methods available only to women (at this time).

For me the rule means I have to try and look at it from their point of view. For example when I had Laotian and Cambodian neighbors with very poor English language skills. I had to only ask how would I want to be treated if I was in their countries with the same difficulty, namely poor or no understanding of the local language. That sure affected how I treated them.

edited to add: I must have done something right since I was invited to a traditional Cambodian wedding by both families.

Replies:   REP  sejintenej
awnlee jawking

@Not_a_ID

Another example: a jihadi would be quite happy for you to cut his head off because it would mean martyrdom and a large number of virgins. Unfortunately he expects the same right, to be able to cut your head off.

Perhaps everyone should grow multiple heads. Then I'd have multiple mouths out of which to spout bollocks :)

AJ

Replies:   sejintenej
Dominions Son

@docholladay

Nope the one that goes: "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you."


Some people think it's "Do unto others before they do unto you."

REP

@docholladay

True, but we are both responsible for the baby.


And then we have "men" who refuse to accept responsibility for impregnating a woman. They usually say that it is the woman's job to avoid pregnancy, not theirs. Then they just walk away.

Replies:   docholladay
sejintenej
Updated:

@Not_a_ID


Ditto for the children, a 28YO Brother getting it on with his 25YO (step-)sister isn't going to be "too big of a deal" in most psychology circles so long as it was consensual(and "protection was used"),


Marginally more complex than that.

It was not too unusual (even in my lifetime) for a parent to legally adopt their own blood child (and I emphasise that the adopter would be the physical father / mother of the adoptee).

The adoptee of course loses their birth certificate and receives an "adoption certificate" which has a similar legal status as a birth certificate and details of the birth parents are legally withheld from everyone including the adoptee.

Could get interesting if the such adopted child later gets together with a blood brother/sister (adopted or otherwise)!!!!!

Replies:   Crumbly Writer
sejintenej

@awnlee jawking

Another example: a jihadi would be quite happy for you to cut his head off because it would mean martyrdom and a large number of virgins. Unfortunately he expects the same right, to be able to cut your head off.

Please, please, please. They ran out of fresh virgins a long time ago.

More seriously I understand that the original reference is to entertainment women who might remain as virginal as Japanese geishas (but don't tell them that!)

Replies:   REP  Dominions Son
REP

@sejintenej

Please, please, please. They ran out of fresh virgins a long time ago.


The ex-vigins probably get pregnant generating a fresh supply of virgins. :)

Replies:   sejintenej
sejintenej

@REP

Please, please, please. They ran out of fresh virgins a long time ago.


The ex-vigins probably get pregnant generating a fresh supply of virgins

. :)

Ah, another do-over story. In the Balkans (Bosnia et al) war they reckoned it took the "fresh supply" 14 years to be ready for use

Replies:   REP
Dominions Son

@sejintenej

Please, please, please. They ran out of fresh virgins a long time ago.


No, no, no. It was all a misunderstanding. It was really 72 Virginians. :)

http://www.therealjonbatson.com/my-blog/72-virginians

REP

@sejintenej

it took the "fresh supply" 14 years to be ready for use


That's just a logistics issue. Today's supply of virgins were started 14-18 years ago.

Crumbly Writer

@sejintenej

It was not too unusual (even in my lifetime) for a parent to legally adopt their own blood child (and I emphasise that the adopter would be the physical father / mother of the adoptee).

Sorry, but it was never common for parents to adopt their own children. What popularized the 'adult adoption' market was gays adopting one another in order to enjoy a few of the benefits normally afforded (but unavailable to them for decades) through marriage. This was especially common when an older man with money (think Liberace) adopts a young man just out of school.

@D.S.

No, no, no. It was all a misunderstanding. It was really 72 Virginians.

They're promised 72 virgins, but no one said they were either female, or attractive. A just God would give them 72 young Texan rednecks, ready to break a few heads, along with all the beer they need to do the job (which the jihadists couldn't drink).

Dominions Son

@Crumbly Writer

They're promised 72 virgins, but no one said they were either female, or attractive. A just God would give them 72 young Texan rednecks, ready to break a few heads, along with all the beer they need to do the job (which the jihadists couldn't drink)


Another version would be 72 young attractive female virgins all in chastity belts with no key available. :)

docholladay

@REP

And then we have "men" who refuse to accept responsibility for impregnating a woman. They usually say that it is the woman's job to avoid pregnancy, not theirs. Then they just walk away.


And then you have those who will lie about being protected. Or like almost happened to me in Idaho one time: A woman said she needed help and a place to sleep. I had just gotten into town so had to rent a cheap hotel room. Let her stay with me in the room after signing in as man and wife. Next day she said we were now legally married and I had to start paying for her support. I ran like hell before she could get me and the desk clerk before a judge. (desk clerk miss spelled my last name)

dishonesty goes with both sexes not just one.

Replies:   Dominions Son
Dominions Son

@docholladay

And then you have those who will lie about being protected.


There are even known cases of women faking pregnancies.

Replies:   Crumbly Writer
Crumbly Writer

@Dominions Son

There are even known cases of women faking pregnancies.

That's the main reason why prophylactics (rubbers) have such a low effectiveness rating, because most of their failures are the results of women not taking them, but claiming they did. (Both my daughters did that because their husbands weren't interested in having kids at the time.)

Replies:   Dominions Son
sejintenej

@docholladay

I had to only ask how would I want to be treated if I was in their countries with the same difficulty, namely poor or no understanding of the local language. That sure affected how I treated them.

Doesn't always work. I was at a London monument (the Cutty Sark) when a lorry from a well known French haulier with French numberplates parked. The driver got out and, clearly not speaking English, wanted to know the route to a place 5 miles away. I had an old street map which did not name his destination but I showed him on the map and verbally.

He seemed to get the message so I asked him the name of the Département 40 where his lorry was registered. Totally blank: after ten minutes explaining the route in French he couldn't speak either English or French - he was a Pole!
So much for trying to be helpful!

Replies:   docholladay
Dominions Son

@Crumbly Writer

That's the main reason why prophylactics (rubbers) have such a low effectiveness rating, because most of their failures are the results of women not taking them, but claiming they did.


Since when do women take condoms?

Why would women forgetting to take their BC pills affect the contraceptive effectiveness rating of condoms?

I've heard of at least on case where a boy who wanted a sibling used a needle to poke holes in the tips of his dad's condoms.

sejintenej

@Crumbly Writer

It was not too unusual (even in my lifetime) for a parent to legally adopt their own blood child (and I emphasise that the adopter would be the physical father / mother of the adoptee).

Sorry, but it was never common for parents to adopt their own children. What popularized the 'adult adoption' market was gays adopting one another in order to enjoy a few of the benefits normally afforded (but unavailable to them for decades) through marriage. This was especially common when an older man with money (think Liberace) adopts a young man just out of school.

During WWII there was a rash of babies born to unmarried mothers, the fathers being perhaps foreign, perhaps killed before marriage. Such adoptions legitimised such babies. And yes, there were a lot of them. I can understand your examples but never came across any myself (not that way inclined)

Capt Zapp

@Crumbly Writer

They're promised 72 virgins, but no one said they were either female, or attractive.


Or even human. Perhaps the virgins are pigs.

Crumbly Writer

@Capt Zapp

Or even human. Perhaps the virgins are pigs.

Definitely no oral sex then.

docholladay
Updated:

@sejintenej


Doesn't always work


True in that type situation I would have to stop trying with him and move on. Or in a case of someone thinking its a sign of weakness so they attack me. Well the one standing after the fireworks ends set the rules of combat.
edited to add: and for those who only understand the dark side. My favorite opening target was their balls, afterwards I would offer to put them out of their misery.

sejintenej

@Capt Zapp

Or even human. Perhaps the virgins are pigs.


Even better; the Muslims are complaining about our currency notes saying that they are not allowed to touch them. Apparently they don't approve of the manufacturing process.
They know what they can do.
Sheesh kebab

Crumbly Writer

@sejintenej

Even better; the Muslims are complaining about our currency notes saying that they are not allowed to touch them. Apparently they don't approve of the manufacturing process.

They're perfectly free not to spent (or receive) our money if it's that objectionable. However, requesting we change something to intricate to our culture to suit their personal choices seems a bit ... onerous, especially since it offers us no concessions or benefits. After all, they're offering nothing in exchange.

I'm all for inclusion, but this sounds like an extreme example of pushing an agenda. But then again, having not heard the initial reports, I'm not sure this is a mainstream view in the Islamic American community.

Replies:   REP
awnlee_jawking

@sejintenej

I heard it was Hindus etc because the new, plastic £5 notes contain traces of beef tallow from the manufacturing process. But the old, paper £5 notes also contained traces of beef tallow!

Still, it's given the professionally offended something to complain about - they want all our currency to be vegan.

AJ

REP

@Crumbly Writer

I'm all for inclusion, but this sounds like an extreme example of pushing an agenda


Not so extreme, CW. While I was still living in Cupertino, CA, we had a huge influx of Asians. My wife worked for the school district, and a large segment of the people wanted us to change the way the district functioned to suit their cultural perspective.

I recall one issue in particular. The district was close to halfway complete in upgrading its school buildings. One gentleman took issue with the way the two flat sides of the building met. He insisted that the construction specifications be changed to require bullnose corners (i.e. rounded corners) because that was the way things were done were he had lived.

Back to Top