Forum: Editors/Reviewers Hangout

eg a quality assessment of 10 can be meaningful if the review contains a significant number of mistakes

Like the review that contains spelling errors bemoaning the spelling errors in the story under review? I remember seeing that once though I can't remember which review.

Even if you get a couple crap reviews, hopefully they'll learn in time

I was under the impression that only positive reviews were allowed.

What's the process to be allowed to submit reviews? There must be some oversight in place, I would imagine. I'd like to know more about this.

I was under the impression that only positive reviews were allowed.

I think negative reviews are not allowed is a better description.

What's the process to be allowed to submit reviews? There must be some oversight in place, I would imagine. I'd like to know more about this.

Send a question to the webmaster. There is a process for approving reviewers. They have the right to choose the process, but I've always found them open about what their policies are.

As a volunteer reviewer, why would I waste my time writing a review of a story I did not like?

My reviews are not written to be critical of an author and grammatical oopses, but rather are written and posted to share my enjoyment of some tale.

I provide some insight into why I liked the story and when warranted, my observations of any plot holes or other factors that might detract from other folks enjoying the tale.

We readers, whether paid or free members, are extremely fortunate to be able to enjoy the work of many really outstanding authors. We are all aware that some have went on to publish on other venues where their work might sell. But even if they have deleted their stories here, at least we have had the opportunity for a look-see.

As far as oversight... I just submitted my review of Zalezac's latest, and before I could finish finding this thread and typing this reply it was posted to the site - maybe 10-15 minutes. I'm sure Lazeez looked it over, saw nothing bad, and sent it out.

Send Lazeez a private message if you'd like to volunteer to be put on the reviewers list.

There are reasons for giving negative reviews and that is, in your opinion, the story sucks. Regardless of rating.

The converse is also true. Some story rated 6 that you feel should be an 8. Of course, the onus is on the reviewer to justify his view.

The thing I stay away from is reviewing a story of a type I don't like. Say scat for instance. But it's not likely since I won't read one with that tag anyhow. But you get my point.

There are reasons for giving negative reviews and that is, in your opinion, the story sucks. Regardless of rating.

I guess we're gonna disagree on this. Were I getting paid as a 'professional' then maybe I'd take the time to write a critical review. But I reiterate, why should I waste my time writing a review for a story I did not like?

Your second point...

Some story rated 6 that you feel should be an 8.

I really like Howard Faxon's work. (https://storiesonline.net/a/Howard_Faxon) He has a special way of looking at the world that I find refreshing and unique. His body of work here on SOL (123 stories) is, IMO, severely underrated when taken as the entire whole. An uptick of 1 to 1.5 on 50% of his stories would not be out of line. And yes, there are some that deserve their lower ratings.

So when I read and like a story of his (or any other author) that's underrated IMO, I'll write a review that will hopefully help bring it to the attention of folks that might not normally give it a second glance.

But I reiterate, why should I waste my time writing a review for a story I did not like?

Because you're altruistic and want to warn unwary readers away from stories that are unjustly high rated maybe?

Because you're altruistic and want to warn unwary readers away from stories that are unjustly high rated maybe?

Well, you've got me pegged. ;-) On Amazon I wrote a scathing review of a Custler book that I had PAID for. I checked last evening and 90% of the review raters there found it insightful and helpful. Several left comments that they passed the book by because of my (and other negative) review.

Here... There's a difference that I can't quite peg, that I feel no compulsion to write a bad review.

We've got a story description, (usually) rating points on what others thought of the tale. We've got tags for content and a general heading of story type.

So... as you mentioned earlier, using the tools provided I just do not read anything that is not attractive to me.

Regardless of who the author is, the score for the story needs to be greater than ~7 for me to give it a second glance. That cutoff tells me that it's not perfect but not so bad as to rate a lower score.

Story types. Pure stroke = nope. I gave those type stories up when I realized that most descriptions are nothing more than tab a into slot a, p or m. And really, how many different ways are there to describe a sexual act?

Besides, I can't think of more than a handful of folks that can write a sex scene and make it worthy of my time reading it. Stories that have many paragraphs of sex but might have some other redeeming value that has my interest might get a skim over the sex so that I can locate the next episode of plot.

But... knowing that I'm a bit jaded and the fact that SOL is a sex stories site, I do not down tick this sort of work as I'm confident that it appeals to other folks... different strokes and all that.

So where does this all leave us? Right where we began, I'll skip writing a critical review here on SOL of an amateur author and focus on those that I get off of other commercial sites where the audience pays money. And yes, I am discounting my yearly membership fee here as I see it as supporting the entire site and not just buying a single book. Cheers.

how many different ways are there to describe a sexual act?

One of the reasons BDSM stories tend to be longer than other stroke stories is that there are so many ways to tie the girl up that leave orifices available. And A, P, M are not the only ones when sadism and masochism are involved. Eyes, ears, nostrils, throat (don't need to go through the mouth for that one, if you have a knife or scalpel), navel (sailors like naval maneuvers), urethra, cervix, armpits (hey, a pit is a hole), the holes in the nipples (human cows or girls with pierced nipples), holes in the clit (more piercing), toes and fingers, or between them and there may be more (freckles, hair follicles, skin pores) we don't have to require large openings to manufacture holes. Needles, skewers, screws, dildos, baseball bats and beads, lots of rope and chain, the methods and parts used in BDSM are if not infinite, much larger than just plain "much sex." Not to mention a wide variety of whips, canes, paddles, and other striking examples. There is so much to BDSM they use D and S twice. (Discipline and Domination for D, Submission and Sadism for S.)

Now it is a squick for lots of people, particularly if you do it right.

Now it is a squick for lots of people,

And that may be a factor in why stories with BDSM content seem to achieve lower scores. Dunno, just speculating.

...I realized that most descriptions are nothing more than tab a into slot a, p or m. And really, how many different ways are there to describe a sexual act?

I've often read this or some similar statement and always wonder if the people who make it are aware of the irony. My girlfriend uses it too sometimes and I cry every time she does.

I've often read this or some similar statement and always wonder if the people who make it are aware of the irony.

Apparently not. Please elucidate.

Dude, you can't say that on a sex story site ;)

Why not? Some folks might like it. Just sayin.

Those aren't 'negative reviews', they're simply telling readers what to expect when they read the story, and reviews should include both. It's fine to have a flawed story, as long as the story works overall

What he said.

We need to get past this 'positive'/'negative' idea we have about reviews, and simply review the story for all it's issues, good and bad.

I thought that's what a review is suppose to accomplish, at least since my critical writing course waaaay back in college. That's what I try to accomplish here. May not always succeed but that is my intent.

I thought that's what a review is suppose to accomplish, at least since my critical writing course waaaay back in college. That's what I try to accomplish here. May not always succeed but that is my intent.

There appears to be a perception by some that management "will not accept negative reviews". I'm not sure that is true. I thought the guideline was reviewers should not review stories they know they will dislike, especially those which may include their squicks.
What has your experience been?
Would any other reviewers care to answer that question?
Has it been your experience that you may express your disappointment, and why, with stories you chose to read and review with an expectation you would enjoy them?

Would any other reviewers care to answer that question?

Copied & pasted from Guidelines for Reviewers


Reviews on the site are means of encouraging readers to read the stories, and to help authors get better at what they do. So if a review is meant to simply drive the author away from writing then it won't be published on the site. So if you don't like the story and can't finish reading it because it is horribly bad in your opinion, then simply don't review it. Better send a private email message to the author.

That does not mean you cannot criticise the story, but make it constructive criticism, not destructive one.

Don't review stories that are on your list of squicks, what's the point? If you hate the story going into it then the review will be bad of course.

Reviews that are all negative will be rejected.
Numeric Ratings are:
Story Plot:
How good is the story's plot is.
Story Quality:
Grammar, spelling, properly constructed sentences and such things are judged here. If a story is well polished and well written this rating should be high. On the other hand if the story contains spelling, grammatical errors and stuff like that the quality rating should be lower.
Appeal to Reviewer:
This is purely personal. How much did you personally like the story.

If you don't like to use numerical ratings, you don't have to. Simply leave the menu at 'N/A' (not applicable).

Copied & pasted from Guidelines for Reviewers

Thank you for pointing out those guidelines.
The site policy is as I thought: negative reviews are allowed, but destructive intentions are not. :-)

Copied & pasted from Guidelines for Reviewers

Where are they located?

Where are they located?

At the very top of my home page https://storiesonline.net/home.php are the clickable links.

Dunno fer sure, but I suspect that if you're not on the authorized reviewer list that you can't see them.

@paliden
Where are they (Guidelines for Reviewers) located?
@saquestor
At the very top of my home page https://storiesonline.net/home.php are the clickable links.
Dunno fer sure, but I suspect that if you're not on the authorized reviewer list that you can't see them.

I have a comment for Lazeez.
Is it true that the Guidelines for Reviewers are only available to those already approved as reviewers?
If so, I suggest they are moved to somewhere where all readers can access them.
Potential reviewers not knowing what they're getting themselves into may be contributing to the current dearth of reviewers, especially as there seems to be a lot of misinformation floating around about what the site's policy on discouraging "overly negative" reviews really means.

Reviews are part of the effort to bring stories to people's attention. There is no point in a reviewing system that keeps readers away from stories.

Thank you for the response.

I accept that reviews can only be one of the tools to help stories stand out from the crowd.
I appreciate you must sometimes seek to walk a fine line between reviews that are informative to potential readers, yet not discouraging to amateur authors who are doing their best. To the extent they exist, I think the current system is working well and I would like to see more of them. :-)
The point I wanted to make, which I do not want to debate, is IMHO there could be more information made available to those thinking about becoming reviewers, in particular to clarify, as you just did here, the nature of reviews that would not be accepted.

I'm not sure there's any real downside to that. If there is, Lazeez could simply pull any bad review aside and give them a little 'talking to'.

This is why I thought there would be more work for Management of the Site. First to identify "bad reviews" and then to do the "talking".

This is why I thought there would be more work for Management of the Site. First to identify "bad reviews" and then to do the "talking".

Help me here. What qualifies as a "bad review"? Disagreement with opinion? Abusive language? Personal attack? The latter two are already judged from what I can tell in that they won't see the light of day. The first is pure judgmental, i.e. whats good for me may not be for you and visa-versa.

That would be something to be avoided. IMHO.

I agree, reviewers must edit their work carefully, they will have little or no credibility, if their reviews are not well written.

If a story is not worth scores of 7 or above, I don't think it deserves a review. As an editor and reviewer, I want to help and encourage, rather than denigrate. If a story looks as though it was written by a semi-literate ten year old, I am not going to write a review telling everyone how awful it is. The score should do that and I have no wish to waste my time with a tale that I do not enjoy reading.

Derek Smith

Derek Smith

Derek,
You make a good point; I just happen to disagree with it.

What is accomplished by letting the score dictate whether you review it or not? Why review a story at all then, whether it's good or bad? I mean, what's the point? To me, a good review points out the good as well as the bad, whether you assess the story as a 10 or a 4.

And some stories rated 8 are really 5 or 6s (or lower); conversely, some 5 or 6s are horribly underrated. Lazeez's rating system is subject of much discussion at times, but is really hampered by a cadre of morons (read: trolls) that abuse the internet's anonymity to mess with it, penalizing good authors and/or rewarding bad ones. A good reviewer should attempt to balance such, uh, imbalances. IMHO.

I'll give an example without revealing the story. There is an a story in progress that I started reading as the author's intro indicated it might be a story that I like. Rating is not exceptional, but isn't bad either. Well, while the story has a rather interesting premise, the writing really sucks. I mean really, really, really sucks. Just about every mistake an author can make, is made. It's almost as if the author did it on purpose as a weird attempt at humor. While I'm not going to review it, to me, those type of stories are the ones tailor made for a review if for no other reason than to warn off readers expecting a modicum of quality given it's rating.

My two centavos, FWIW.

I think you just did, only without naming it :(

Picky, picky, picky. Can't get away with imprecise wording around you, can I? OK, AJ. I'm not going to formally review it. The reason should be obvious from my informal review [;}] -- the review would never get past Lazeez given how I feel about the story.

the review would never get past Lazeez

I think, and its only an opinion, a properly phrased criticism, praising good points and suggesting corrections for bad points would pass Management review. On the other hand, almost all reviewers only have 24 hours a day (except days when daylight savings changes and they have 23 or 25) and use about a third of that time for sleep. My time is valuable enough I prefer not to review stories I don't like.

The reason most reviews are written are to point out good stories to others worth reading or (less frequently) to suggest to authors how to improve their stories. Usually a separate email to the author would do a better job than trying to humiliate them with a review, assuming Lazeez would let one be posted.

The function of reviews is not to warn readers away. The site needs all the readers and authors we can get. Some new readers will, eventually become premier members and help the site remain in business. If there are no authors, or very few, the number of new stories will be reduced which will affect the number of new and old members. The fate of ASSTR is one I hope this site will always avoid.

Richard,
You and I see the function of reviews differently. Sometimes the function of a review is to praise good work. Those are the easy ones. Other times it is to denigrate really bad work. Neither one has to be personal and, in fact, shouldn't be. As long as the focus is one the writing and not the person doing it, it will likely pass Lazeez's screen.

What I was implying in my post is that I'm too close to this one to remain objective and I would likely end up savaging the author. When I feel like that, I tend to relieve Lazeez from the necessity of deep-sixing the review by never letting it see the light of day. Nor dark of night for that matter.

The function of reviews is not to warn readers away.

Obviously I don't share this view. That is one of the reasons that I volunteered to be a reviewer.

I am a premier member. I am a reader - not a writer. I've been tempted to write a review of some stories - but always changed my mind because I'm not a writer. Not even a review writer. I've tried sending friendly messages to authors pointing out factual errors they have made. I never criticize the writing. Most authors did not acknowledge my note; the ones who did were hostile. So, I've stopped even pointing out mistakes. I find that a defensible reaction. After all, they provided me with a story for which they get no recompense. I should be grateful. If I cannot be, I remain silent.

Good morning Jim,

I agree with much of what you have said and I really did prefer the old scoring system, which disappeared a few years ago. I was an engineer, IMO scoring with a number or percentage is logical and simple. Deciding whether a story is good, very good or incredible is a bit 'liberal arts' for my taste.

However, I like to write a positive review, which will encourage people to read and enjoy the tale as well as encouraging the author to provide me with further entertainment. If criticism is appropriate, I would rather use the feedback to author route. No one likes being told off in public.☺ I think that this also addresses Dr. Wing Nut's comments.

DS

If a story is not worth scores of 7 or above, I don't think it deserves a review.

We've already discussed, several times, how wildly inaccurate scoring is on the site. If you can rely on scoring to choose which stories to read, more power to you.

I have considered writing reviews several times, but if all we want are positive, attaboy-type reviews, I think I'll pass. There is, in fact, such a thing as constructive criticism - at least there used to be such.

I agree, reviewers must edit their work carefully, they will have little or no credibility, if their reviews are not well written.

If only we lived in a world where the same standards were applied to 'authors'.

If only we lived in a world where the same standards were applied to 'authors'.

Then you should relish the knowledge that we live in that world. To everything written and published the same standards are applied - the standards of its readers. The more readers, the more standards.

Did you expect everyone would share your personal view on standards?

The only thing to know about the scoring worth knowing is it's a collective comment by the readers on how much they liked the story on a graded scale - end of story on scores.

I agree, but I think it's worth to mention that merely about ten percent of the readers vote on a story; so the majority 'collective comment' seems to be 'no comment'.

Not making a vote is still scoring the story because the readers are making a statement about not scoring.

'No comment' is a statement, isn't it?

some readers award 10 to every story they read

If I enjoy the story enough to make it all the way through to the end, I usually give a vote of 8, 9, or 10. I have voted stories much lower because of the ending.

A movie I enjoyed the first time I saw it was 'Dirty Mary, Crazy Larry'. At least I did until the end. Hated the "Hey Mister! Ain't nothing gonna stop us!" and then they crash into a train. Totally ruined it for me and I haven't watched it since.

a vote of 8, 9, or 10.

For me, an 8 is an A, a 9 is an A+, a 10 is very rare. If readers give every story they vote for a 10 they don't discriminate the absolute best from good or very good. And the score shouldn't be based on the author but on the story. I agree there are authors whose stories are generally better than stories by others, but even then, the great authors have stories that are better than their average, and sadly, some worse that that. In my opinion Robert A. Heinlein was a great author. Some of his stories are not tens.

For me, an 8 is an A, a 9 is an A+, a 10 is very rare.

Surely a 10 should be impossible because the reader realises that, however good the present story is, there may be an even better one in coming years. This has always nagged at me

Surely a 10 should be impossible ... there may be an even better one in coming years.

That wasn't a problem for Nadia Comăneci in 1976 despite the fact that later gymnasts were better, performing moves she was not capable of doing.

Surely a 10 should be impossible because the reader realises that, however good the present story is, there may be an even better one in coming years. This has always nagged at me

Hmmm,
how about there never comes a better story? Then you you would have rated the alltimes best story only a 9. Dosn't this nag at you?

If my understanding of the scoring system is correct, then you can score the same story multible times, your new score replaces your previous score.

So if in future years you'll find the ultimate story, you can just go back to the one or the few stories you rated a 10 and score this or these stories again with a 9.
The 10 you gave years back was correct until now, so you shouldn't have bad feelings about your scoring back then.

HM.

alltimes

FYI. Yet another of the anomalies in English is that there are a few prefixes which - according to dictionaries - buck the trend of common expressions transitioning from two words into a single word, sometimes via a hyphenated form.
I routinely use hyphens with any expressions containing 'all-', 'self-', 'vice-', and '-elect'. For BrE (but not AmE) I do so with 'non-' too.

Thanks. I really appreciate your posting.

For me that's the problem with reading stories of authors who don't care about spelling and grammar.
How to judge if what I read is correct?
If I read it often enough I'll finally use it too.

HM.

Thanks. I really appreciate your posting.

You're welcome. It's just another of those things which has no logical explanation. :(

Thank you.

In addition to the trouble – for me because my native tongue is German – created by native english speaking authors not bothered by grammar and spelling, I've to deal with Denglisch in german media and especially ads.
There people create english sounding words, e.g. 'Handy'.
An American would call it a cell phone, in GB it's called a mobile phone, but in Germany it's a Handy.

HM.

In addition to the trouble – for me because my native tongue is German – created by native english speaking authors not bothered by grammar and spelling, I've to deal with Denglisch in german media and especially ads.

The opposite practice can be troubling too; two totally different things but dictionary translations equalize them. Take what the Americans call coffee for instance, it has absolutely no resemblance to the hot refreshing drink you and I would call a 'Kaffee' in German.

Take what the Americans call coffee

Do not ever come to South-East Asia if you think American "coffee" is an abomination!
In Indonesia, when you order kopi they dissolve in hot water a pre-mixed packet with roughly equal proportions of instant coffee, milk powder, and sugar. :(
Ironically, Indonesia is also the home of (one of) the most expensive coffees in the world, Kopi Luwak. The coffee cherries are eaten by civets (rodents that look similar to ferrets), their droppings are collected, and the coffee beans are extracted. Enzymes in the civet's digestive tract alter the taste of coffee made from those beans.
In Indonesia the coffee tastes like shit, but the shit makes a superb cup of coffee. :-)

So they don't get their kopiright ;)

Yeah. They attempt to copy but it comes out very wrong.

There people create English sounding words, e.g. 'handy'.

I tried to guess what 'a handy' could be after reading that.
What is something made or done with a hand that is usually achieved some other way?
The most logical meaning I could think of was a hand job. :-)

The most logical meaning I could think of was a hand job. :-)

That's a handy assumption.

An American would call it a cell phone, in GB it's called a mobile phone, but in Germany it's a Handy

and in Brazilian Portuguese it's a portable

Brazilian Portuguese it's a portable

I remember that at least the part of Brazil I lived in 21+ years ago, cell phones were called "telefone celular" or just "celular".

In addition to the trouble – for me because my native tongue is German – created by native english speaking authors not bothered by grammar and spelling, I've to deal with Denglisch in german media and especially ads.

I think the vast majority of languages incorporate some English - even the French who have a whole crowd of Immortals whose job is to preserve the French language.
You moan about English - your problem is that there are different grammar rules in every country which notionally speaks English with the notable exception of the US - they seem to have different rules in each state, city, town and village. I had problems with the impossibility of Frankfurter Deutsch versus plat versus Schwartswald versus.... and they all say that radioanzager deutsch is rubbish (apologies for speeeeling)

Romance languages are much easier - to me.

I think the vast majority of languages incorporate some English

Granted some of those "English" words themselves come or are derived form terms in other languages. The word telephone for example is derived from two Greek terms that together mean far talker.

Romance languages are much easier

Everybody likes romance. Lots of peoples didn't care for Rome. When I took Latin in High School, I didn't care much for it. Is Latin a Romance language?

All Romance languages come from Vulgar Latin. Depending on the location, there might have been some secondary influences in their development to their modern day form.

Vulgar

Vulgar | Definition of Vulgar by Merriam-Webster
https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/vulgar
coarse, vulgar, gross, obscene, ribald mean offensive to good taste or morals. coarse implies roughness, rudeness, or crudeness of spirit, behavior, or language. ⟨found the coarse humor of coworkers offensive⟩ vulgar often implies boorishness or ill-breeding.

Might fit right in on SOL. Stories should be obscene and not heard.

Stories should be obscene and not heard.

I fail to see how they could be silent if properly obscene; yes, some folks _do_ have silent sex, but that _never_ happens in porn.

Vulgar | Definition of Vulgar by Merriam-Webster

There are a few other definitions of Vulgar that you did not mention including of or relating to the common people.

BTW, the term "Vulgar Latin" has it's own entry in several version of that dictionary.

So if in future years you'll find the ultimate story, you can just go back to the one or the few stories you rated a 10 and score this or these stories again with a 9.

The 10 you gave years back was correct until now, so you shouldn't have bad feelings about your scoring back then.

Fine in theory but can you remember to which stories you gave a ten many years ago or alternatively, because nothing better has shown up which stories given 9 should be re-scored ten? I can't even remember what I did a week ago

In my opinion Robert A. Heinlein was a great author. Some of his stories are not tens.

I second your opinion.

However my judgement about the ranking of his stories changed over the years. I was 17 when I first read a german translation of Podkayne of Mars, now I'm 70 and my taste in stories – I won't say it improved – it changed over the years.

After the death of some of my favorite authors I started rereading their earlier works and in a few cases I couldn't understand why I had cherished those stories when I first read them decades ago.

HM.

There is, in fact, such a thing as constructive criticism - at least there used to be such.

Unfortunately, it is not considered 'politically correct' and left with 'common sense'.

Management doesn't review stories, why would it review reviews?

I think management does review them but lightly, just making sure that it isn't abusive or going too far overboard. I speak from experience as one of my earlier efforts never made it past Lazeez. So there are standards.

Reviewers need to think twice about using a 5, and have to have a really good reason to use 4 or below, unless they want to lose their reviewer licence.

Pray tell, where is this policy documented?

I don't believe such a policy exists.

"Reviews that are all negative will be rejected." In my opinion a 5 is the equivalent of a D grade--poor but passing. Below 5 is a failure--an E or F grade. My opinion (again) is that reviews that leave a story with 4 or lower in any category is a negative review. Perhaps my opinion is not the position of Management, I developed it myself, and I have tried hard not to give very many 5 reviews. One of the easy ways to discourage writers from posting on SOL is to have their stories treated harshly. As a reviewer I feel my job is to find stories readers will enjoy, not to warn readers not to read particular stories. Am I guilty of an occasional 5? Unfortunately, yes, but if I had it to do over I wouldn't.

Although not a reviewer myself, I took your advice and read a few of Celeste's reviews. Sadly I've to say, I feel none the wiser now. What makes Celeste's reviews outstanding; or more generally, how does a good review look like?

What makes Celeste's reviews outstanding; or more generally, how does a good review look like?

Entertaining to read, informative, and identify stories the reader probably would like to read, assuming the appeal to reviewer is at least moderately high.

I've never based my decision to read a story on a review; I've never even looked at a review before I read the story. However, sometimes I read a review after I read the story, out of interest whether the reviewer shared my personal view of the story in question or not.

That's what reviews mean to me, the personal opinion of one reader about a particular story and it's dependant on his personal preferences. Since I usually don't know the reviewer, his opinion is of rather limited value to me. It would only change if I'd read many of a particular reviewer's assessments and notice we have the same taste.

That's why I asked how a 'good review' looks like, I may miss something which could change my opinion.

I haven't found anywhere where one could sign up to be a reviewer on this Web site.

Click on Help, Item 12 under General-
https://storiesonline.net/h/34/how-can-i-submit-reviews-for-stories

Click on help and search for reviewer.

Yet again! I make a constructive suggestion only to have you explain it has already been done. :-)