Forum: Story Discussion and Feedback

Chiming in (more or less on cue):

It's certainly true that the further into the future the story goes, the less well it's mapped out.

That said, for essentially the entirety of Book 1, nothing beyond the next 10-20 chapters was really mapped out. Book 1 is pretty much all seat-of-the-pants writing. There are a few exceptions (for instance, parts of the summer vacation I generally knew were coming).

By the time Book 1 finished, parts of Book 2 were settled, parts were in flux. Some of the bigger plot threads popped up in the middle.

Much more of Book 3 was plotted out when I started it than was the case with Book 2, though I still have some big swaths of time where... something happens. What? Not sure.

Long-term, there are some major events mapped out for Books 4, 5, and 6 (or, really, Senior Year, Freshman Year college, Sophomore year college). Another major event should happen around 1987 (it'd be a spoiler now - however, once you see where one storyline is going in Book 3, 1987 becomes obvious).

In a way this may make it worse :) since I'm being pretty clear that it won't be 'done' at least anytime soon. There's just too much story to tell, and by the nature of some of the characters and plotlines some things can't be resolved by the end of high school, for instance.

My writing method is moving more and more towards scoping out the current 'medium-sized picture' and seeing what happens in the smaller moments there. If something happens that screws up something bigger, either it's a mistake or (more likely, really), I screwed up the bigger picture. None of the previously mentioned major events are really in that category, though - I can't see them derailing.

I'm trying to pare down (somewhat) the stretches where things are 'quiet'. If I can skim it, I'll skim it. Of course, that's in my judgement :) A number of readers would've been fine with 90% of Summer Vacation 1981 being skimmed.

There's a lot of introspection, definitely, and it won't go away. Getting a second chance at life lends itself to that. There are plenty of interesting 'Why is this different? Am I doing the right thing? What do I owe people who I could help?' type questions.

Replying to the big question: I have no intention of leaving it unfinished. In fact, I was pondering today how to write a broad, as-satisfying-as-possible (probably at best 'moderately satisfying') wrap-up in case some disaster overtakes me and how to make sure it gets posted.

I didn't start posting Book 1 before I'd written the entire first draft, but that's not true of 2 or 3. Obviously it could be unfinished.

On the other hand, the same is true for A True History, A Well-Lived Life, and many other long-form SOL stories, and I've enjoyed reading those. Best intentions of their authors aside, life happens, and sometimes it abruptly changes plans.

A number of readers would've been fine with 90% of Summer Vacation 1981 being skimmed.

I'd be one of them. I've never been to the USA so such travelogues are pretty much over my head.

However I'm also sure that to many readers they're a big plus point, adding to the background and colour.

It's your story and you haven't done anything to put me off yet ;-)

AJ

if you didn't finish it, there is probably no reason to score it

Not even if the reason was that the story was unreadable? I'd think that would obligate the reader to score it.

AJ

I agree with that sentiment in theory, but in practice, I'm reading offline and usually it feels like too much work to bother getting online to review something I'd rather just forget and move on.

Answering the OP question: I hate reading unfinished series. Haaaate it. I don't touch serials till they're complete. I will sometimes sample the first volume of a series (if it's not open-ended anyway, like most mysteries), to confirm whether I'm interested in keeping it in mind for later. Very, very occasionally, I'll get sucked in by it and eagerly await each volume as it comes out.

VoaT is only the third such series on SOL I've been sucked in by. I think it's worth it.

On the other hand, given finished books I'll read unfinished series.

That's actually a big thing, because what so many people forget is that prior to the internet, you got your dead tree novels when you got them, and you liked it.

No Patreon. No eARCs. You might see a snipped in a magazine review a few months prior to publication. Otherwise, it was pretty much up to you to go into Walden Books or your library and look at their new selection. The average was one new book every couple of years - if you were lucky.

Absolutely - books turned up when they turned up, and you might know this book is 'Book One of a Series!' but often no idea when (or if) Book Two would appear, or how many books there would be.

Sometimes that might be an advantage. I suspect fewer people would've launched into 'The Eye of the World' if they'd known it was under 7% of the entire series (and it's not at all a short book, except by SOL standards). And there's no question that, while it's fairly satisfying, there's a ton of worldbuilding in 'The Eye of the World' that makes it clear a lot more is expected of these characters, so it's 'done', but also very much 'not done'.

Also, sometimes things you think are done, aren't. Ten, twenty, or more years go by and then suddenly a sequel appears.

It all comes down to tolerance of unfinished stories. I certainly didn't put a great deal of work into crafting wrapped-up endings for VoaT 1 or 2; they end where it serves the plot and book management, but no one would think the story was 'done'. But I wouldn't have started posting if I didn't think there was enough there to have made the journey worth taking. That's why I finished the whole first draft of Book 1 before publishing; if I couldn't pull off at least one book, I'd have called it and looked for something else to write.

"Write what you know" :) I haven't been on a sports team, and I felt like trying to do that would come off hollow. There's enough Debate (I think) to give that 'competition' feel without overwhelming you in detail (and I could!). The beginning of Book 3 adds just a bit more detail (they're at a summer Debate workshop - of course there has to be a bit more), but I hope not so much that anyone's eyes glaze over.

As I've said before, my two biggest fears when I started writing were characterization and dialogue. Of course I picked a story and format where both are the foundations of the books. In for a penny, in for a pound.

This makes sense if - and only if - the author is up front about it and says something like "I just can't add to this story with quality at this time. I'm giving my muse time to recover and writing something else in the meantime."

I was about to put in a pitch for having a fall-back expository piece "And then this happened ... " in case their muse doesn't return. But I'm not sure that's best. My example from above - the original 'Twin Peaks' - ends on a serious unresolved cliffhanger. Tossing off a 'resolution' would probably have gotten in the way of the brilliant 25-years-later third season.

On the other hand, if the author simply ignores the elephant in the room, that's not good.

On the other hand, if the author simply ignores the elephant in the room, that's not good.

That would be one of the reasons I have decided that David Gerrold is a jackass.

Great, you figured out you needed more than three books to tell your story. You wrote four. Then left things hanging. Okay, it's 22 years later since the LAST book was published, your fifth book is supposed to be out in September. It's now SIX YEARS LATER! You've said it's going to take EIGHT books to tell the story. You're 77 years OLD! I was still in COLLEGE when the first book came out - 37 YEARS AGO!

Go Chtorr yourself!

Robert Jordan ran out of time before he finished. Luckily he at least planned things.

I am hoping George R. R. Martin is planning things. We have an ending, thanks (?) to HBO, but I'm not even vaguely convinced that it's the ending. I'm several books back on that, apropos this conversation, because I have too many other things to read and a while back decided to just 'wait for book six before catching up'.

Still waiting.

But, yes, Gerrold wins the award for not wrapping things up. Though, if Martin doesn't leave extensive notes should anything happen, there will be much wailing and gnashing of teeth.

This makes sense if - and only if - the author is up front about it and says something like "I just can't add to this story with quality at this time. I'm giving my muse time to recover and writing something else in the meantime."

I was about to put in a pitch for having a fall-back expository piece "And then this happened ... " in case their muse doesn't return.

Then again, there's nothing saying that you can't do both. Writing a sudden ending at least puts the story to bed, and then, if and when you're ready to continue it, either rewrite the first ending and continue from there, or restart the series with an all-new sequel, using the same characters in a new situations.

Some of my best series only became series after the first book was published and posted for a good six months, when I sudden got a revelation about how to continue what I'd originally thought was a 'one-shot' tale!

Thus, never assume that anything is final, either for your own work, nor for favorite authors. Just keep in mind that, especially for an extended series, authors get overwhelmed, and need to put the story aside either to 'refresh their muse', or just to get a break from the unrelenting story that's taken over their lives. After all, authors are human too.

This is especially true in dead-tree publishing, where famous authors often hire teams of up-and-coming talent to writing MOST of their later books, giving them time to pursue their own interests while still maintaining their lifestyles and the critical acclaim!

Book 1 was a great read..book 2 got too repetitive... last 25 chapters were boring as shit... hopefully book 3 gets back to a fresher storyline.

Again, those are the 'travel' sections, which Grey Wolf admits are the weakest part of the story. Perhaps his best option is to simply 'recap' what happened in the start of a new story, including flashbacks for the vital scenes, but that's likely to frustrate just as many readers, and breaking your established style is a recipe for disaster for most authors.

The best way to develop new techniques is to test them out a piece at a time, rather than dramatically changing your writing story at the start of book 3 in a 6 book series. If you can't carry it off successfully without more practice, you'll lose more readers than if you put the whole thing aside and write several shorter 'test' pieces (novelettes).

Personally, I like his vacation jaunts (though I prefer them shorter and less fully developed), as their a way to unwind, step down the normally frantic pace and give the readers a break as they prepare for the start of the following book. I do the same following any dramatic fight scene. Following the action, which is often rapid-fire and full of questions, I then slow the tempo, having the readers review their actions and formulating what drove the attack.

That's call story pacing. You rev the readers up, and cool the story down for a bit before reaching the next 'exciting bit'. In all of my reading over the decades, I've NEVER reread an 'action-packed' page turner, though I'll often read the thoughtful, slowly evolving story to recapture the character development once again.

The worst thing, as I said before, with DITL (Day-in-the-Life) stories is that the inherently get boring for wide swaths, as the authors relegated to explain everything in a strictly sequential chronological, day-by-day basis. So, if you don't like that approach, then simply avoid reading ANY DITL stories!

Then again, if you LOVE the all-involving story that extends for 60+ chapters, that's exactly where you want to be, and the normal 'novel length' story typically averages around only twenty-some chapters!

I think imsly1 was pointing to the last 25 chapters of Book 2, only three of which are 'travel'. I'm interested in the feedback, and I see it less there. Quite a few storylines running through there, though only a few are 'new', perhaps.

As you said, there's a slow (quite slow?) evolution from DITL and towards event-driven. I still feel like the pace of high school tends to push up the number of 'events', and that I'm not quite at the point where I'd skim an entire debate tournament (for instance). I may be getting there for minor ones. Dances and so forth need coverage.

Classes are long since relegated to 'an interesting thing happened today', as are lunches, dinners, etc. If there's not an interesting conversation, they're gone.

For imsly1's benefit, the first few chapters of Book 3 are 'necessary but a bit slow'. Summer debate workshop - can't skim the whole thing :) Things pick up after that.

I'd probably find it extremely difficult to write a worthwhile summary for the start of a new book, and it wouldn't help unless you were a reader who'd skimmed something important somehow.

For imsly1's benefit, the first few chapters of Book 3 are 'necessary but a bit slow'. Summer debate workshop - can't skim the whole thing :) Things pick up after that.

I can see that, but virtually nothing occurs (the protagonists decides he's not interesting in talking with anyone and decides the course wasn't as interesting as he'd hoped).

I can see your logic, ending Book 2 with a solid ending, but beginning the new book where the characters are essentially spinning their wheels (when the pace of the other books was pretty consistent throughout, is a bit disturbing). In short, with all that happened during the exercise could be summed up in about a paragraph and a half (other than the debate sequences, that is, which were pretty interesting) of dialogue when they return to school.

I'm not saying that it's a mood killer, just that shifting the beginning of each book from the start of the new school year probably wasn't the best move—even though 127 chapters makes for a very long book, so I can understand the choice, but …

Picking where to split books in a series is always challenging. In most cases, each book contains it's own conflicts, so they end once that mini-conflict wraps up, but for sagas like yours, it becomes a much tougher choice.

Essentially, aside from the one sexist relative, there's really NO conflict to keep the story engaging over the late summer periods. Finding one would definitely help those sections, and typically how to get past slow sections of a story are with interpersonal conflicts, where several people can't agree on what they're doing (like the kids and their parents, or the siblings on which school program they'd like to attend the next year).

There are several points here, but I will agree that the Book 2/3 split is slightly arbitrary. Here's a bit of the thought process plus (non-spoiler) spoilers and so forth.

I feel as if Indiana is more 'junior year starts' than 'sophomore year ends'. The summer program is thematically connected to junior year, not sophomore year. The topic is the one they'll spent 1982-1983 debating, some of the setup that's (perhaps quietly) going on is setting up 1982-1983 threads (not wrapping up 1981-1982 threads), etc.

Some thoughts:

First - I agree with much of the summary of the first five chapters (there are eight at Indiana). There are things going on that are important that aren't entirely visible (but they're not enormous). On the other hand, the debate sequences are somewhat the point of the early chapters: it's nice to have a good place to present some of the 'Inside Debate' angle on things in an organic manner. People who just don't care can skim those, but people who are interested in what actually happens in all those rounds get some more context.

Second - we're not quite done. A bit more character development happens, and Steve winds up talking with people more than expected. If nothing else, there's a bit of insight as to how he relates to other people. Chapter five certainly adds an interesting (if minor) character.

Third - leaving Indiana isn't the start of school. That's weeks away. The first day of school is in Chapter 17. It's still arguable that that would be a better starting point - there's much more of a cliffhanger there than there is at the start of Book 3. On the other hand - it's (in my opinion) an 'artificial' cliffhanger, and I decided not to do that after the Book 1/2 transition. And it'd have run Book 2 to 133 chapters, which is a lot. Note that I don't have a strong feel for how long Book 3 will be, yet. At one point I could've said it was trending towards 150 (!), but now it's probably closer to 120, which is on part with Book 2. Over 2/3 of Book 2 is in 1982 - it's very imbalanced (mid-Aug-Dec 31: 36 chapters, Jan 1-July 4: 80 chapters. I think Book 3 will be more balanced.

Fourth - don't write off conflict for summer 1982 :)

And, fifth - Book 4 will (for long-planned reasons) start with their summer program in 1983. Moving that to the end of Book 3 would (in my opinion) weaken Book 4. It made more sense to shift to a midsummer transition with 2/3 than to wait for 3/4.

Given that next summer's program will probably be more than twice as long - and much more 'active' - that drops the amount of summer that's 'wheel-spinning'. Summer 1984 should similarly be very busy, as the major characters will be eighteen and actively engaged in transitioning to college, investing, etc.

There are several points here

But since they came from Vincent, most of them have zero relevance to your story.

Your story is a do-over that is a coming of age story. Not everything that happens in Steve's life has to be of conflict, or is going to be. The other detail is something you mentioned - you're setting up background for something later. What may seem to be 'spinning wheels' to someone means that there's a painted pony for you to ride.

Your characters are NOT operating in a vacuum, independent of exterior influences that may notice them. Minor details, such as the parents giving Steve and Angie more freedom than they expected. Becoming an expert at a subject such as debate is a good way to find yourself being looked at for such things as Model UN. Another thing is that Congressmen have staffers that do clippings - they check out newspaper articles of up and coming high school students, so they can be aware if those students want to apply for a military academy or become an intern. Changing and affecting the election of a student council may seem like a small thing to the general public. A politician may see that as how he got his own start, even more so since a controversial topic of homosexuality played a part in it.

In Texas, during this time period? Hell, yes, people are noticing what's happening in this high school.

But since they came from Vincent, most of them have zero relevance to your story.

Eh. If they're good points, they're good. The Book 2/3 split is arbitrary. I could make a good case that what is chapter 17 of Book 3 could be the first chapter of Book 3 or the last chapter of Book 2 or split. My criteria for splitting it where I did make sense to me, but they're debatable.

Definitely, they're not operating in a vacuum. Book 3, so far, is probably the most 'do-over-y' yet, and it's still mostly 'new ground', partly because the day-to-day lives of the characters have diverged too much to fit the classic do-over mold. However, there's more business-chasing, investment-musing, 'what's-changed' musing, etc.

Model UN has been on the radar for a while. Whether it goes anywhere - who knows? The student council election would definitely draw some attention (likely with slow-moving consequences), but of course things also won't end there. And Houston is already primed for some consequential politics around homosexuality given the already mentioned "Straight Slate" campaigns of the mid-1980s.

Some of the consequences may be more 'around' Steve - he's got multiple avenues to success (few of which are 'written off' as of yet), but others in his orbit won't have as many, and could well be interested in internships and military academies and so forth.

Side note: Houston was the first 'major' U.S. city to have a gay mayor (Anise Parker, elected 2009). I've met her (very briefly, but I have). Nice person, and was a good mayor. Hopefully she has a future in elective politics somewhere or another.

Oh, I doubt she'd run at that level. Even statewide office would be a bit of a heavy lift right now (though, with the current situation in Texas, not as heavy as a year ago). But there are plenty of opportunities (state house or senate, Congress, etc).

Right now she's running an organization which trains LGBTQ people for leadership roles (politics, but also business).

Right now she's running an organization which trains LGBTQ people for leadership roles (politics, but also business).

Given the current political climate, that's probably a wise choice, as it'll have a more substantial effect than spinning her wheels on an already loaded political atmosphere. But it's nice to know that positive influences like that can and do find new and creative ways to continue influencing others to succeed, rather than merely being shuffled into the history books as no longer material to the future.

I must say, there are many surviving 'movers and shakers' in the gay community from back when I was young, which is sad on any number of levels. History needs presence and continuation to remain a relevant force, and with so few recalling their histories, it's easy for a once powerful movement to get swept aside as immaterial in the current scheme of things.

But since they came from Vincent, most of them have zero relevance to your story.

Always a significant point!

Your story is a do-over that is a coming of age story. Not everything that happens in Steve's life has to be of conflict, or is going to be.

Maybe not, but generally, fiction is about conflict, and anything that's not related to the underlying conflict is therefore, considered largely insignificant.

You keep a story focused by sticking to the central conflicts in the story, not by avoiding them. That's how you focus a story on the story's central archs, and ignoring them only weakens, rather than strengthening the story.

For many SOL stories, readers are primarily invested in MORE GIRLS and ever more extreme kinks, but do those 'popular' elements make for stronger and more engaging stories, or just provide 'fluff' for the fans without building the story?

Of course, I can't envision what's not yet been revealed, I was just giving my impressions of what's been written (i.e. that the story would be stronger if he'd skimmed over the less obvious details). I'm not suggesting that he ignore future events, just that he reconsider what's central to the plot. Whether he adheres to the plot isn't mine to decide, but readers tend to notice when a story is beginning to go sideways. That doesn't mean it can't be reigned back in, just that it's currently drifting a bit. (or was, as these events happened some time ago now.)

You keep a story focused by sticking to the central conflicts in the story, not by avoiding them. That's how you focus a story on the story's central archs, and ignoring them only weakens, rather than strengthening the story.

Philosophically, at least ... partly agree, partly disagree. Actively avoiding the central conflicts is a mistake, no question, but in a large story there can be many 'central conflicts'. As an example, if you dissect many of Steven King's works and pick the 'central conflict', a lot of the book is 'side story'. In my opinion that strengthens many of his stories.

At this point in authorship, I get both the 'more girls' and 'more kinks' angles. I wound up with more girls than I expected, and I'm not done yet, but I'm trying to resist the temptation to make too much of that. What's fun at a certain level can become much too much at another level.

As for 'more kinks', that's somewhat the same problem. I could do a fair bit with some that I haven't even touched on, and that's a temptation. And it's certainly a never-say-never. Many of my characters are both self-confident and adventurous. They will likely try things. That may be significant for those relationships, but that would be the reason to 'go there', not fan service.

And, of course, in retrospect, some things that looked like 'fluff' (Gail, for instance) are not so much fluff. Could I have cut that subplot down quite a bit? Of course. But it's good both for character development and for driving parts of the story.

Your foreshadowing has me wondering which of Steve or Angie gets stabbed by Blue.

AJ

Your foreshadowing

I had sent the below to GW in an email one week ago today:

I had a feeling the reason she was pushing for Steve to have a fling was because as a drama student, she fell HARD for HER fling.

Not sure if that's a reference to spoilers (and, if so - I should keep that in mind) or a reference to just discussing the story. Either way, I support waiting and binging, if that's your reading style. I do that with several stories (at the wait-a-couple-of-years level).

Philosophically, at least ... partly agree, partly disagree. Actively avoiding the central conflicts is a mistake, no question, but in a large story there can be many 'central conflicts'.

Those are generally considered to be Secondary conflicts, however significant they are (simply because they're not the central basis of the story. They may last throughout the story, and may be central to the characters involved, but the story doesn't depend on those conflicts.

At this point in authorship, I get both the 'more girls' and 'more kinks' angles.

I get that, especially in the earlier books, as (so far) it's not a major issue in Book 3. What's more, you're protagonist is typically focused entirely on each girl at a time, rather than jumping from one to the next as a 'serial dater' would.

But both the 'more girls' and 'more kinks' don't refer to having an occasional interest, it's the tendency to try to keep a story relevant by constantly adding another girl (typically each chapter) and continually adding an ever increasing list of kinks. In this way, it's typically accompanies with an exhaustive category list.

As for Gail, I never saw her as fluff, but rather as your saving her for later, when the characters encounter her in another context, when they have the time and inclination to become more involved with her. That's more of foreshadowing than anything else.

@awnlee hawking:
Your foreshadowing has me wondering which of Steve or Angie gets stabbed by Blue.

Personally, I haven't seen any indication that Blue will last any longer than her one phone call to Steve, as she's shown NO indication of moving to their state of attending their school.

At this point in authorship, I get both the 'more girls' and 'more kinks' angles.

I get that, especially in the earlier books, as (so far) it's not a major issue in Book 3. What's more, you're protagonist is typically focused entirely on each girl at a time, rather than jumping from one to the next as a 'serial dater' would.

What I meant here is that I understand it as an author, or at least more. As a reader, sometimes my response has been 'Why are we adding a harem here? why wasn't so-and-so enough?' Or 'Why are they trying X?' (though I'm a bit less judgmental there, since 'normal people' often try new things to 'spice things up').

Now, I get it a bit better. The characters (or at least mine) have a way of trying to get themselves into interesting situations, and juggling a harem is unquestionably 'interesting'.

I'm not too worried about the keep it relevant part - or, at least, not yet? The story is the story; I would be upset if it went off the rails due to some misguided attempt to 'keep it relevant'. I'm sensitive to readers, but more on presentation (e.g. Was the current start arc too drawn out? Should I have phrased something differently? Better explained something?) than on the actual story.