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How to read a "period piece"

Mushroom 🚫

I wanted to give a word of advice to anybody reading a story that is a "period piece". That is, almost any story not written in the current era.

And primarily, that is to read such with the recognition that the author may know more about the time being written about than you do. They may have lived through it, or done extensive research into it so hopefully know what it is they are talking about.

Of course, I also recognize that some authors simply talk out their ass, and make stuff up as they go along, however it suits them.

I have written at least 2 major "period pieces", and many shorter ones. And one of those two is a period piece more by accident now, as it was written 25 years ago, about a time about 5 years before then.

Quite often I have gotten messages from people, screaming at me that at least one of my stories is "not accurate" for one reason or another. Sometimes it is prices, which I actually laugh at. One passionately wrote me to scream nobody would pay $3,000 for a crappy 80386 computer in 1988, that was just to much. Meanwhile, the catalog price for a new 80386 from that exact same year (and easily found online) from Radio Shack was over $8,000. Adjusted for inflation, that is around $16,000 today.

Yes, they were insanely expensive, but those who were born after just do not get that, and I laugh when I agree the prices I used were laughable. Laughably low, as I did not want to destroy the mindset of the "modern readers".

Or one that said I had blown it, as "Marines would never talk, act, or behave that way". Once again I laughed, because I served during that period. We are literally talking a period of time as off-set to those today as my generation was from those that served in WWII.

As things are today, is not how they were before. Leave many preconceptions at the door when reading stories written to occur decades (or longer) before.

Replies: REP StarFleet Carl Uther Pendragon

REP 🚫

@Mushroom

I agree with you.

There are a number of points you didn't address; far more than I can address.

Where do authors obtain accurate information about a specific period of time? The starting, unacknowledged assumption is the articles they read are accurate. All too often the people who wrote those accurate articles were not accurate in what they said. One of the reasons for those inaccuracies is they assumed their sources were accurate. Some of their sources were accurate for a specific region or group of people within a region. Unfortunately, the authors' articles failed to identify what group and area they addressed. The content of the articles is also subject to the biases of the authors, which the reader of the articles is not aware of. Similar comments could be made about those who experienced the time frame - namely their experience was limited in scope of area and people.

I served in the AF. One of the things I noticed is, the different AF specialties talked and behaved in a manner that differed from other specialties. So the reader who said Marines don't talk that way was actually saying the Marines they knew didn't talk that way. There is also a big difference in speech patterns between people in technical fields and those in non-technical fields.

StarFleet Carl 🚫

@Mushroom

One passionately wrote me to scream nobody would pay $3,000 for a crappy 80386 computer in 1988, that was just to much.

I remember those days. I had purchased a computer with an extended (4 year) warranty from Best Buy for over $2,000, and at 3 years, 8 months, it died. They tried to not honor the warranty, and give me something equivalent to what I had, but the way it was worded, they had to replace the dollar amount.

I remember my high school science teacher in 1978 bought a 4 banger calculator for $100, because of how new the technology was then. Then I paid nearly $400 for a TI-59 in 1980, for college.

As for preconceptions ... I've received several comments regarding 'A True History' book one and two from people who are fans but have trouble with the minor detail that then is not today.

Eddie Davidson 🚫
Updated:

Sometimes I intentionally try to write about something I know nothing about.

Example would be Madeleine

https://storiesonline.net/s/21298/madeleine-by-eddie

I set this in 1800s Paris. I did some research to determine how the streets were laid out and chose a block for my MC. I described it - the sounds, smells, etc based mostly on my best guess.

I researched some of the oldest stores in the city and had my MC visit the book store and the restaurant, as well as a women's house of correction.

I had to take some poetic license when I brought him to a brothel in a shanty part of town - but I did my best to explain how the mansions nearby were the main competition for them and how occasionally the wealthy went slumming.

I included actual french words - including how the french think certain animals sound. It's different than Americans think.

It was great fun to write. If you can handle BDSM/Humiliation I would love to hear your feedback. I asked for anyone who was familiar with that time or spoke French to provide feedback but none ever did.

I wrote it as an homage to French Artist Georges Pichard who drew a story that was quite similar years ago. It has been a huge inspiration of mine.

rkimmelerre 🚫

There's a certain sort of person who seem to genuinely believe that their own experience is absolutely universal, and that everyone's life is more or less the same as theirs, even across vast cultural or even temporal divides.

There's a certain sort of person who believes that they are never wrong, not about anything, and that everything they think and believe is simple, objective fact.

And then there's a certain sort of person who combines both of those attributes. I don't know how large a percentage of the general population they are, but they sure as hell love to comment on online stories and tell the authors how much they got wrong and what they need to change - right now! - to make their stories better.

Replies: madnige Mushroom

madnige 🚫

@rkimmelerre

I don't know how large a percentage of the general population they are

Too damned high!

Replies: Dominions Son

Dominions Son 🚫

@madnige

@rkimmelerre

I don't know how large a percentage of the general population they are

Too damned high!

So those people live in Denver?

Replies: anim8ed

anim8ed 🚫

@Dominions Son

There are cities and towns higher than Denver (alt.5,280 ft above sea level) Such as lovely South Lake Tahoe (alt.6,237') or Park City, Utah (alt. 7,000'). Just saying.

Replies: Dominions Son

Dominions Son 🚫

@anim8ed

Yeah, but Denver actually goes by "The mile high city"

Of those cities and towns at higher altitudes than Denver, how many have an appellation based on their altitude?

Replies: joyR bk69

joyR 🚫

@Dominions Son

Of those cities and towns at higher altitudes than Denver, how many have an appellation based on their altitude?

El Alto (Spanish for "The Heights") is the second-largest city in Bolivia, average elevation of 4,000 m (13,123 ft)

bk69 🚫

@Dominions Son

You mean it wasn't a drug reference? What a waste.

Replies: Dominions Son

Dominions Son 🚫

@bk69

You mean it wasn't a drug reference?

It was both an altitude and a drug reference. If the first comment on it had been about drugs rather than altitude, I'd have run with that.

Replies: anim8ed

anim8ed 🚫

@Dominions Son

Actually I was referring to both alt. and drugs at least with S. Lake Tahoe. I am not aware of the city culture of Park City though being at altitude in Utah I imagine it is possibly a ski destination with a similar collection of ski bums as South Lake Tahoe with the associated use of recreational substances.

So go ahead and run with it which ever way you wish to go.

Replies: bk69

bk69 🚫

@anim8ed

I thought they were only performance enhancing drugs from snowboarders...

Mushroom 🚫

@rkimmelerre

And then there's a certain sort of person who combines both of those attributes. I don't know how large a percentage of the general population they are, but they sure as hell love to comment on online stories and tell the authors how much they got wrong and what they need to change - right now! - to make their stories better.

I actually welcome feedback. And I recognize my experiences are unique to me, and I guess I find it frustrating when somebody says such, without any reason why I should believe their word over my own experiences.

Of course, I also took the word of the "Marine" with a big grain of salt because in the letter he actually said "no marine would do that". Something that would get him bitch-slapped by almost any other, as "Marine" is always capitalized.

And of course, I would also invite any that if they think I am wrong, to please feel free and do it correctly. I welcome reading stories by others, and think it would be great to get new authors into our unique hobby.

richardshagrin 🚫

I thought a period piece would be about menstruation.

Replies: Dominions Son Mushroom joyR

Dominions Son 🚫

@richardshagrin

I thought a period piece would be about menstruation.

A period piece could be about grammar and puctuation.

Replies: richardshagrin

richardshagrin 🚫

@Dominions Son

puctuation

A colon oscopy. Or os is operating system (or bone in Latin) so a colon os copy is two dots above each other, and operating system and a copy. Colon is also part of a digestive tract. Lets not get into colonisation. Colon is a tion. (How did "tion" as a suffix started being pronounced as "shun"?) So colon is a shun.
shun
/SHən/

verb
persistently avoid, ignore, or reject (someone or something) through antipathy or caution.

So avoid colons, use periods instead.

Mushroom 🚫

@richardshagrin

I thought a period piece would be about menstruation.

That would be bloody awful.

Replies: karactr

karactr 🚫

@Mushroom

That would be bloody awful.

Do I have to spell out the groan that caused.

joyR 🚫
Updated:

@richardshagrin

I thought a period piece would be about menstruation.

Some of us learnt at school that sex during a period is a bad idea, as it greatly annoys the teachers...

Replies: irvmull

irvmull 🚫

@joyR

Some of us learnt at school that sex during a period is a bad idea, as it greatly annoys the teachers...

No doubt the students (girls, especially) were sad to hear that there would only be 5 minutes between periods.

Replies: Dominions Son joyR

Dominions Son 🚫

@irvmull

No doubt the students (girls, especially) were sad to hear that there would only be 5 minutes between periods.

It's more likely that the girls were alarmed by this rather than sad.

Replies: awnlee jawking

awnlee jawking 🚫

@Dominions Son

Even in a 'rich' country like the UK, a depressing proportion of the female population lives in 'period poverty', ie they can't afford proper sanitary wear.

Some of them, particularly young schoolgirls, would be suicidal if periods came every five minutes.

AJ

joyR 🚫

@irvmull

No doubt the students (girls, especially) were sad to hear that there would only be 5 minutes between periods.

Sad wouldn't even be close...

However, a period that lasts five days isn't unusual, it is the two day gap before the next starts that would be the killer.

I'd opt for the correspondence courses, no fixed periods that way.

:)

Replies: Dominions Son

Dominions Son 🚫

@joyR

I'd opt for the correspondence courses, no fixed periods that way.

I kind of doubt the girls would be happier with broken periods. :)

Honey_Moon 🚫

I do try to research a story when I write a period piece. It took me forever to find an automobile built in 1939, that I could confirm that it had door lock buttons! (Needed them to be unscrewed in the story)
I decided on a 1939 Dodge Luxury liner. I found a print ad reproduction that clearly showed the lock buttons. So many cars back them had little slide switches!

Mushroom 🚫
Updated:

I decided on a 1939 Dodge Luxury liner. I found a print ad reproduction that clearly showed the lock buttons. So many cars back them had little slide switches!

It can go even deeper than that.

I read one long ago where the character jumped into a "brand new" 1909 Ford Model T, turned the key, then turned on the headlight. Then later on turned the switch to turn on the wipers.

Wow, so much fail in a few sentences. At that point, the Model T did not have "headlights", it literally had carbide lanterns. Wiper blades were not electric, you literally moved a crank back and forth to move the blades. And all cars were still crank start. The earliest "automatic ignition" cars normally did not even use keys, it was a button on the floorboard you pressed with your foot (some was a knob on the dash).

And curiously, I am now getting emails from people because I posted a 30+ year old story, and did not include the author's e-mail. *smacks head*

At that time, there were no "email addresses", it really did not exist. If you were one of the rich ones and had say CompuServe, you might identify yourself as "Mail at 1234567,12". Or in this era on a BBS "Message SYSOP at 'Mushroom Garden BBS', (707) 234-5678". If you did not mind your mail being read by everybody around the world, you might throw in something like "Respond in the Fido Erotica Echo, StoryWriter at node 2:463/68".

This story was literally written when only a few dozen thousand had even heard of an "@address.com" type email address. Yet I am getting messages now wondering why I did not attribute to the author in a format that literally did not exist at the time it was written.

Replies: Keet Honey_Moon

Keet 🚫

@Mushroom

Yet I am getting messages now wondering why I did not attribute to the author in a format that literally did not exist at the time it was written.

You know the saying: there's no limit to ignorance ;)

Replies: Mushroom

Mushroom 🚫

@Keet

You know the saying: there's no limit to ignorance ;)

Which is ironic, as it is about a story I reference, specifically saying it was written in around 1989.

Probably makes me wonder if some of them wondered how many people got text messages when JFK was shot. And what CNN had to say about it in the crawler on the bottom of the screen.

Replies: StarFleet Carl irvmull

StarFleet Carl 🚫

@Mushroom

Probably makes me wonder if some of them wondered how many people got text messages when JFK was shot. And what CNN had to say about it in the crawler on the bottom of the screen.

No CNN crawler that I remember, but I know that listening to Walter Cronkite made my mom really upset.

Replies: Dominions Son

Dominions Son 🚫

@StarFleet Carl

but I know that listening to Walter Cronkite made my mom really upset.

Listening to Walter Cronkite would upset anyone. :)

Replies: PotomacBob

PotomacBob 🚫

@Dominions Son

Listening to Walter Cronkite would upset anyone. :)

Just curious: Was there anyone to listen to that was not upsetting?

irvmull 🚫

@Mushroom

Probably makes me wonder if some of them wondered how many people got text messages when JFK was shot.

We didn't have a radio, tv, or Muzak playing in our store. If there were customers, we were supposed to be talking to them, if not, we talked to each other.
Actual talking, as opposed to texting across the aisle, had certain benefits.

We first heard about JFK's shooting from the newspaper "boy" - actually, a short little old man of vaguely middle eastern ancestry - yelling "Special Edition! President shot!" in the street outside the store. We kept buying new Special Editions as they came out.

A lot of the things mentioned above will require an explanation for future readers. The idea that you could call anyone a "boy" - even though most self-propelled dispensers of printed news were in fact "boys" - without insult being meant or taken is unimaginable.

I'm not sure which will be the next to go, "talking" or "newspaper". "News" has already lost its original meaning, which, according to Merriam-Webster, was "a report of recent events". The next edition of the dictionary will probably just read: "News - see Propaganda"

Honey_Moon 🚫

@Mushroom

I read one long ago where the character jumped into a "brand new" 1909 Ford Model T, turned the key, then turned on the headlight. Then later on turned the switch to turn on the wipers.

I would have known must of that already. I read a book once where a teen was proud of being able to install an electric starter on a car (Forget the year, it took place during WWI) so he wouldn't have to crank it in the rain.

Replies: palamedes

palamedes 🚫

@Honey_Moon

electric starter on a car

The first electrical ignition system or electric starter motor for cars was invented by General Motors (GM) engineers Clyde Coleman and Charles Kettering. The self-starting ignition was first installed in a Cadillac on February 17, 1911. So it is correct and possible to have someone installing a electric starter during WWI.

Replies: Mushroom

Mushroom 🚫

@palamedes

The first electrical ignition system or electric starter motor for cars was invented by General Motors (GM) engineers Clyde Coleman and Charles Kettering

Ahhh, the GM story. :)

The thing is, Boss Ket was not a GM employee yet. He owned and ran DELCO, and they were simply contracted to help GN solve the problem.

It was because of that work that a few years later GM bought DELCO, and brought Kettering in as an actual employee. And it was more than just adding the starter. They basically reinvented the entire electrical and ignition system also. Alternator for magneto, more improvement in ignition timing and performance, and many other things at the same time.

And the GM buyout was not until almost a decade after the new starter and other improvements were invented. DELCO went on to develop entire generator based power systems for remote homes and farms, which the military also bought a lot of. Delco went on to produce De Havilland bombers and major components for the Liberty L-12 engine.

And even then, Kettering and his partners did not want to sell out to GM. They had already joined the "United Motors Company", which was a conglomerate of many companies that had an interest in making motors. And their main industry was the aviation industry. GM simply bought that company, and over several years either closed the other members, or absorbed them into GM itself.

But no, Kettering was not a GM employee, that would not happen for another decade. And much of it predates GM involvement, as he was already working on the issue before GM even got involved.

One thing about Kettering, he was a proliferate inventor. Ethyl gasoline, modern fuel additives, freon, the motorized cash register, programmable guided missiles, quick drying paint for cars, safety glass, 4 wheel brakes, portable incubators, "high beam" auto headlights, pneumatic delivery systems, the "Fever Chamber", and many more.

During the latter years of his life he mostly dedicated himself to medical research, and before antibiotics the Fever Chamber was a common procedure for VD and other infectious diseases. Prior to that, "fever treatment" was actually performed by infecting a patient with malaria. His device allowed a save fever to be induced without infecting a patient with another disease to treat the first one.

palamedes 🚫

Some people think the 1909 Ford Model T has an ignition key because the electrical switch looked like a key. The switch had 3 positions OFF - BATTERY - MAGNETO. Starting the vehicle was an art form in itself

The Steps

1) Make sure the vehicle was out of gear (neutral)
2) Parking brake set
3) Turn electrical switch from OFF to BATTERY
4) Set the spark timing lever (centered maybe with a little
advance helps if you know the engine)
5) Set the throttle lever (this is your gas pedal down fuel
is off so move it up to give it some gas)
6) Hand crank it over (try not to sprain/break your hand,
arm, or flat out kill yourself {NOT A JOKE} )
7) Move electrical switch from BATTERY to MAGNETO
8) give it a little more gas then adjust the spark lever to
smooth out the engine (you will adjust this even when
driving at times)

If you care to know the 3 pedals in the vehicle are

LEFT - Clutch
MIDDLE - hold this in and you get reverse
RIGHT - Brake

Of course back in those times you would have also taken the time to make sure the vehicle had water in the radiator, the engine had oil but you would hand lube the key parts of the engine before starting, the tires where on tight with no cracks or breaks remember the rims where wood, and that you had fuel there where no gas stations on every corner most of times you would get your fuel from the hardware, livery, or even the grocery store in metal cans sold right beside the lamp oil.

Radagast 🚫

And it was still faster than feeding a horse, saddling the horse, unsaddling the horse and scooping out its crap from the barn.

Replies: irvmull Mushroom

irvmull 🚫
Updated:

@Radagast

Yeah, but the horse could get itself, and your drunk self, home. Tesla is still working on that.

Replies: Dominions Son ystokes

Dominions Son 🚫

@irvmull

Yeah, but the horse could get itself, and your drunk self, home.

Not legally these days. People have been arrested for DUI riding a horse.

Replies: ystokes

ystokes 🚫

@Dominions Son

Not legally these days. People have been arrested for DUI riding a horse.

People have even been arrested for driving lawnmowers while drunk.

Replies: Dominions Son

Dominions Son 🚫

@ystokes

People have even been arrested for driving lawnmowers while drunk.

Yeah, but you are actually driving the lawnmower. On a horse, you can let the horse "drive".

Replies: irvmull

irvmull 🚫

@Dominions Son

You can be sleeping on the back seat of a parked car, and still be convicted of Driving While Intoxicated.

Because you could, conceivably, wake up, crawl over the seat, and drive away, causing an accident. That makes sense.

I suppose, in the tiny mind of a bureaucrat, there's the fear that you might hoist the horse upon your shoulders and stagger home, risking an accident along the way. I'm not sure this makes quite as much sense.

Perhaps it's just another way to raise taxes.

Replies: bk69

bk69 🚫

@irvmull

You can be sleeping on the back seat of a parked car, and still be convicted of Driving While Intoxicated.

Usually there's a different charge for that, a "care and control of a motor vehicle while under the influence" type.
However, you're ok to sleep in the vehicle if you aren't in possession of the keys.

Amusingly enough, I once was left passed out sleeping in a vehicle, with the keys, by cops. While I was drunk, the person driving got picked up on outstanding warrants. Because it was my vehicle (and I'd been responsible enough to let someone else drive) I guess they figured it'd be ok to let me sleep it off and drive home later, rather than bother waking me up while I was still drunk and in a town a couple hours from home.

ystokes 🚫

@irvmull

Yeah, but the horse could get itself, and your drunk self, home. Tesla is still working on that.

I always felt the biggest mistake Harley ever made was getting rid of the kick-starter. It kept alot of drunk riders off the road.

Back when I did background work there was a love-hate with doing "period piece" movies. Love because you get to wear cool wardrobes, hate because that wardrobe had 3-4 layers mostly made of wool in the summer.

Mushroom 🚫

@Radagast

And it was still faster than feeding a horse, saddling the horse, unsaddling the horse and scooping out its crap from the barn.

Yes, but also a horse would rarely kill it's rider.

Quite a few people were killed trying to crank-start cars back then. And broken arms were common injuries. The death of Byron Carter in 1909 after such an accident caused Cadillac to become serious about creating a self-starting car. After failing to do so, they consulted one of my ancestors who was an inventor, and had created a lab out of Dayton to solve the problem.

Less than a decade later, GM bought the Dayton Engineering Laboratories Company (DELCo). And while almost unknown today, the inventions of Charles Kettering in many ways rival and exceed those of Edison.

Replies: Dominions Son Radagast

Dominions Son 🚫

@Mushroom

Yes, but also a horse would rarely kill it's rider.

For a properly trained horse, that would be true. It wouldn't be quite so rare for a horse not trained to the saddle to kill someone trying to ride it.

Replies: bk69

bk69 🚫

@Dominions Son

Also, horses have been known to kill a rider when spooked by a snake. As well, a horse moving at speed could always stumble, which could cause a broken neck. (Also, a thrown rider could be stepped on. Usually fatal given the level of medicine during times when riding was common transport.)

Radagast 🚫

@Mushroom

And down the Wiki hole I go...

Uther Pendragon 🚫

@Mushroom

Some decades ago, I read something by a guy who said, essentially, "I visited India, nd Kipling was wrong about it."
Now, he had visited India something like 50 years after Kipling wrote his Indian stories, which were mostly about the English ruling class. Since independence, what observations could you make that could contradict his social observations?
Second, while current India is a huge place -- more diverse linguistically than Europe, the geography where Kipling lived, and in which he placed most of his stories, in now in Pakistan.
So, since The Man Who Was, set in the mess of an English regiment stationed lightly south of the Khyber Pass bears little resemblance to a tourist-bus trip across the Gangeatic Plain, it must have been because Kipling was an inadequate observer.
Third, most of Kipling's Indian stories were first published to great acclaim in India.

Replies: Remus2

Remus2 🚫

@Uther Pendragon

One truism about the Jammu/Kashmir region. It changes rapidly and frequently.
Example:
In 1989 the Doda region was reported to have been hit with a rash of insurgents. Reality is, the area had long had a problem with it. It was more bandits and wannabe warlords than insurgents though.

No government has been able to effectively control the area. The nations in play are China, India, and Pakistan. None of which could care less about the people; being more concerned with the resources the region is rich in.

I've been in the region three times over four decades. Each time was like the first visit all over again. Whomever that guy is you're speaking of, obviously only visited once, or twice at most (assuming a very short interval).

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How to read a "period piece"

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