Forum: Story Discussion and Feedback

So I recently finished after loving 99% of it and I have to say that is the most brutal ending to a story I think I've experienced on this site.

It's incredibly well written and, as a consequence, I was extremely invested in the characters. I was really hoping for a happy ending and I was prepared for a 'sad' ending were it didn't work out between Kathryn and Luke but nothing like that. Kathryn ends up dying alone, Luke ends up a shell of a man who can't maintain a close relationship and Wendy loses her best friend and potential relationship(?). I've been trying to convince myself to think of the happy version in chapter 44 as the ending but even that ends on a low note. Is Kathryn drifting away from Luke?

As I told Barahir when I messaged him it's an excellent story, probably the best I've read in some time, but I can't say I ended up liking it. I think that's the most down I've ever been a the end of a story here.

I don't think that's true actually.

Not that I don't read many stories or books as a form of escapism but I also read and enjoy darker or more ambiguous fiction too. I wouldn't necessarily say Fidèle is that true to real life as such, it's powerful and emotionally wrenching but I wouldn't call it realistic as such.

I think my reaction to the ending is more because I'd become so invested in the outcome for the characters (which is a bit unusual) and wasn't expecting the ending to be quite so dark. To be clear I'm not saying it isn't an excellent piece of writing but, again unusually for me, I was so gutted I felt the need to vent a bit.

I agree with you. It is some of the best writing here. It had a brutal ending. Three days later and I am still thinking about that ending and the emotional roller coaster it has engendered. I am still fucking angry and sad and upset. And yes I know it's fiction. ;-)

I believe that a primary goal of all art and hence all artists no mater the medium is to some how 'touch' the audience. And this artist with this art did that for me.

Thank you and well done Barahir.

I doubt I'll be reading that tale after seeing this thread. It's not realistic to expect a happy ending every time for anything meant to emulate real life, but I've no need to seek it out, however well written.

I will have to pass this one too. Like Remus I don't expect there always to be a happy ending. I like it if a story is so well written that you still think back about it days later but not if it's such a downer, no matter how well written. Still, kudos to Barahir, you made an impression.

In Barahir's blog he explains why he ended it that way.

No worries. I wanted to have a discussion about the story. There's no reason you can't be involved in that.

Just whining about wine.

I think the majority of readers fall into the category 1-3 Dominions Son mentioned, those that read for entertainment. I'm one of them too and like Remus2 I've experienced or witnessed enough tragedy that I don't want to read about them. There is a niche group that loves bad endings but it's not for the majority.

I also really didn't enjoy the ending, but I didn't really let it spoil how much I enjoyed the entire story. As Barahir mentioned (both in here and in my direct correspondence with him), he grappled for a while about how to conclude his story. He chose the ending that he did, but that what I most enjoyed about the story was how well the characters were developed, in what was about 90% of the story (when Luke lived on the property with Kathryn). I also had an affair in the past with a married woman, and I told Barahir that one reason his story spoke so well to me is that the affair between Luke and Kathryn was quite similar to my own. I had never previously engaged in infidelity and neither had she, and I like to think that I'm fundamentally a good person (and so was she). But her husband was also a good person, although there were problems in their relationship when she and I fell in love. It was much more interesting and (in my view) realistic than the typical cheating wife/husband story where there is at least one clear bad guy - the cheater, the person outside the marriage who seduces, and/or the spouse who has been neglectful or abusive.

As for the ending, I totally agree that I would not have minded an ending where Luke and Kathryn didn't end up together. But as you said, Kathryn's post-Bill life consists of very little in the way of love, passion or friendship, and she is middle aged when she is stricken with cancer and then dies alone on a rock. And Luke is still broken and seems doomed to repeat his failures with Kathryn when he meets somebody new who could love him. It's an extremely bleak ending, certainly for Kathryn and probably for Luke as well.

And the fact that Bill died and then they spent nearly a decade living half a world apart, largely unhappy, without ever trying to resurrect the happiest time in their lives, didn't sit well with me. Luke not taking action seemed consistent with his character development - too passive and clearly suffering from depression - but I had a hard time reconciling Kathryn's post-Bill life with who we knew her to be.

In response to the question by Barahir - "what is it about stories that end as tragedies that you don't like?" The characters of Luke and Kathryn were developed as largely sympathetic people. Kathryn, especially, had gone through severe traumas (childhood abuse, miscarriage that rendered her barren). So I think it's human nature to not want bad things to happen to good people, and as someone else said, there's often enough bad stuff in real life to not want to be subjected to pain in our escape from real life.

Firstly I'll say I pretty much agree with pbf13579, it felt very bleak. Barahir you felt like you'd added the possibility of a positive outcome for Luke with your ending but I really didn't read it that way. I assume you're talking about Rose but the potential for a relationship with a Kathryn stand in who Luke initially mistakes for Kathryn strikes me as extremely unhealthy.

Beyond that a few people have talked about the type of ending but I think the type of story which leads into that ending is just as important.

A lot of fiction is plot driven. Of course it doesn't hurt if you're invested the characters as the reader but that's primarily important as a vehicle to make you care about how the plot develops. I've got no problem with dark endings to plot driven stories so long as it's in the service of making the plot more interesting. I don't feel like Fidèle was that kind of story though.

Other than that there's fiction that's about using the story to explore an issue. Again if a dark ending helps better illuminate the the issue being explored then I don't mind it. There's a lot of fiction, both good and bad, exploring the issues around infidelity but, while infidelity is part of the story, again I didn't feel Fidèle was this kind of story.

For me Fidèle is a character driven romance. I care about the story because I care about the fate of the characters. That doesn't necessarily mean there has to be a happy ending, exploring how characters navigate the failure of a relationship and grow beyond it can be very interesting.

The reason I don't like the ending is because it's so bleak I feel like there's not a lot left there for me to take away from it. You've done an excellent job making me very invested in the characters so, yeah, an ending that dark has produced a strong emotional response but I don't feel like there's anything beyond that.

For me it is just about the quality of the writing and of course the story. A zombie apocalypse where the zombies win is ok as long as the writing is good and the story is good.

What do I mean by good? That, as with all art, is subjective. However for me what is really means is that I am engaged with the story. Specifically there is something about the characters to which I can relate. The deeper that connection the more control the author has of my reactions, the happy, the sad, the fear, the anger, pick one or more.

Although truth be told I don't really think I'd like the zombies to win, but there is nothing wrong with the anti-hero winning. There are some really good anti-hero characters in literature and film.

Tastes vary, my entertainment might be your boring.

In response to damoose's post about stories where zombies win can be good if the story is well-written, I agree. But I also agree naeblis in that Fidele did not lead into the ending that we got.

Barahir said that the reader was supposed to feel some sense of optimism about Luke at the end, but in my reading he seemed like he was falling into despondency about missed opportunities with Kathryn. He had strong feelings for Rose but seemed to have no idea how to envision a future for them together.

Kathryn's story cannot be considered anything but depressing. After Luke moves out she is heartbroken when he flees the country, ends up in an irreparably damaged marriage with her husband, who dies within a few years. She has it out with Luke after the funeral, ends up drifting for about a decade and dies early from cancer, with only a distant cousin there with her. It's implied that she has more sexual adventures with Alejandro and Faith, but it's pretty clear that her life post Luke was unhappy and without much in the way of love.

Luke, as discussed, seems quite damaged. I thought that the epilogue was leading towards him ending up with Rose, but that wasn't even an ending that I wanted after learning what had happened to Kathryn. Luke and Kathryn were equal partners in their affair, and given how shitty Kathryn's life was after Luke left, it wouldn't have seemed right for Luke to essentially get a do-over with a woman who has nearly all of Kathryn's positive qualities, and none of her baggage (childhood sexual assault, inability to bear children). It certainly didn't feel like Luke "earned" a good ending, because in his misery he was objectively terrible to people who cared about him (Kathryn, Wendy, Irina, Faith, Olivia, etc). In my view, Luke is a much less likeable character by the epilogue.

Bill is a flawed yet sympathetic individual; he dies early and it's clear that the marriage didn't go the way that he hoped. We don't hear anything from Wendy after Luke runs away from her after the funeral, but it seems like the once-strong friendship between Luke and Wendy is gone. And Wendy didn't end up with Irina, whereas in Luke's dream we were led to hope there would be a future there.

And as I mentioned previously, I just didn't like the idea of Luke and Kathryn not attempting any sort of reconciliation after Bill's death. Their love and attraction and sexual chemistry was such that they almost ended up in bed the night that they met, Kathryn engineered a way for them to spend more time together, and within a week and a half they were engaged in a torrid affair where they quickly and easily expressed their love for each other, explored together sexually, and people like Faith and Irina believed they were meant to be together. It just doesn't sit well for me that, after Luke left the guest house, they have one face to face meeting in a hotel, shortly after Bill's death. It doesn't feel like a love as powerful as the one we saw in the first 40 chapters would be left to languish by two people who are essentially miserable without each other, and who (especially after Bill's death) have no reason not to attempt a relationship.

I was prepared for an ending where Luke and Kathryn end up happily together, or one where they are deeply in love but her sexual adventurousness ends up causing a rift. I was also prepared for her to stay with Bill. Or for an ending where she leaves Bill, but either due to the manner in which she took up with Luke or because their relationship is too explosive, she doesn't end up with Luke and ends up with another Bill-like character (an older man who can give her safety and stability, but for whom she doesn't feel the same depth of passion as Luke). And maybe Luke ends up with someone like dream Olivia who is extremely loving and caring towards him, but not as adventurous sexually as he might be - or he ends up with someone like Liz who is quite adventurous, but less loving. Essentially, Luke and Kathryn end up "okay" but lacking the powerful love, romance, sex and overall chemistry that they shared. The ending, to me, took a bunch of generally Overall, the ending that was written took a bunch of likeable and sympathetic characters, and shit on them for reasons which I can't understand.

And one thing I want to make clear, while I did not enjoy the last couple of chapters, overall I thought the series was outstanding, the best story I've read in some time. The characters were very nuanced and I discovered new layers to them as I went along. I normally just read a story and move on; this is really the first story that I've engaged with the author and other readers. I don't want my critiques of the end to overshadow just how much this story connected with me.

I kind of know what you're talking about because I was feeling the same after I was done with it but at the same time I really enjoyed the story. Author (Barahir) did an excellent job not just with story but also with sex scenes, they're very good.

SOL has too many mushy feel good happy ending type stories(kinda fed up of it) so I was okay with the brutal ending. Hope the author comes up with another *gotyoubytheballsyallmotherfuckers* type long erotica

yet it was the author's response to a correction ("that wine doesn't exist"/"I know but I don't care") that caused the first furious outline.

Since it provoked a new story for SOL, I reckon your reaction was a good thing.

I'm far less sympathetic. He got pissed over a fictional wine in a fictional story. He needs to get over himself.

If I ever finish my WIP and start posting it, I'll probably get a lot of flack from readers who know what they're talking about (and no, there's no gun porn)

I've got the same response for readers who get pissy over certain kinds of "inaccuracies" about guns in fiction.

It's fiction, don't tell me that gun doesn't exist. Unless you've got a solid argument why it couldn't exist, get over yourself.

The author presented both himself and the MC as wine experts throughout the story. He knew the wine didn't exist.

So what? Fictional wine in a fictional story. It is insane to get upset over that. Sorry, but in my opinion, you got exactly the response you deserved.