It's come up several times that people avoid stories that contain a story code they consider a squick. Some even block those stories and never see them. I just read a scene in a story with:
girl (8-yo), pedo, rape, snuff, torture, gangbang, cuckold, etc.
Oh, did I mention it's a best selling Jack Reacher novel?
Uummm, what does that have to do with the fact that it's a best selling story? If it's somebody's squick he or she probably doesn't want to read that novel (assuming it is known before hand).
If it's somebody's squick he or she probably doesn't want to read that novel
The point is, the novel is over 300 pages. This one little scene required those story codes. Why miss out on reading a best-selling novel simply because there was a scene containing your squick with the only purpose to show how bad the bad guys were?
This one little scene required those story codes.
I understand your point. I haven't read the novel but I doubt that the scene was descriptive in detail. It wouldn't have gotten past the publishers 'censors'. Much the same as here on SOL where a single 'squick' scene in a long story is not coded (most of the time). If is was coded, too bad for those that have blocked those codes. That's why I don't block any codes although I do watch out for a few personal squick codes.
but I doubt that the scene was descriptive in detail.
No, it wasn't a blow-by-blow. It would never have been published if it were.
But he wrote about the terrorists capturing a star soccer player and using a sledgehammer on his legs, concentrating on his knees and ankles. They talked about a battalion of men waiting at the door to use his wife and daughter. His wife lasted 24 hours. His daughter died in 8 because she bled out.
It wasn't in detail, but I cringed and felt disgust. So if it were an SOL story and I didn't include those codes, I'd hear about it from readers who felt those were squicks.
It wasn't in detail, but I cringed and felt disgust. So if it were an SOL story and I didn't include those codes, I'd hear about it from readers who felt those were squicks.
Yep, the continuing problem of when to code and when not. It can't be solved because everyone has his own opinion. Probably one of the reasons why published works have no codings and just a genre indication.
Why miss out on reading a best-selling novel simply because there was a scene containing your squick...
BECAUSE that is their choice.
Let's say you were a parent whose 8 y.o. girl was raped and murdered. REGARDLESS of how good the story might be, wouldn't you like to know that was in there so you could avoid it? (Not to mention it is pretty damn condescending of you to think that someone NOT reading it is somehow less "enlightened" than you)
Let's say you were a parent whose 8 y.o. girl was raped and murdered. REGARDLESS of how good the story might be, wouldn't you like to know that was in there so you could avoid it?
Best to avoid the bible then.
wouldn't you like to know that was in there so you could avoid it?
What about newspapers, TV and radio news reports, and on-line articles about atrocities. They happen and they are reported to the general public.
Are you going to stop reading and listening news articles because they might squick you out. Perhaps you will insist on content codes for news articles about real life tragedies. I can just picture it now, the TV reporter says, "If you don't care for (squick) then change channels for the next minute."
Are you going to stop reading and listening news articles because they might squick you out.
yep, have been doing that for years - when the headline makes it clear it includes something I don't like I ignore it.
I don't blame you at all. I personally find all news sources to be negative. They seem to only report bad news and present the worst aspects of the events.
I seem to recall a quote from the managing editor of a newspaper about Blood, Sex, and Scandal selling papers, so that is what we readers get.
Several newspapers over the last quarter century have instituted "good news only" editions. Every time they try it, their circulation drops drastically.
Let's face it. We American readers want to read about bad news, and we'll buy newspapers that print that stuff. We're interested in it. The same way we are interested when there's a bad auto accident - we all slow down to see; not one of us slows down to see when everything is going smoothly.
I'm not disputing what you say. However, Blood, Sex, and Scandal frequently contain the elements that squick readers. I haven't heard them complain about their squicks when the squick appears in the news. So if as you said - "We're interested in it." - why do they complain when similar things appear in fictional stories.
Interestingly, on that subject, it always amazes me that the vast majority of books in Asda and Tesco (leading supermarkets in the UK)are mostly all about domestic/child abuse. Often with lurid titles like "My abuse hell" or "Please daddy, don't" normally featuring the face of a crying child on the cover, or a lonely teddy bear. Society, is just fucked up.
the vast majority of books in Asda and Tesco (leading supermarkets in the UK)
For our american readers: Asda was acquired by Walmart in 1999. There was a short period where new supercenters were branded Asda Walmart Supercenters, but since 2006 all new supercenters are solely branded Asda.
HM.
I seem to recall a quote from the managing editor of a newspaper about Blood, Sex, and Scandal selling papers, so that is what we readers get.
There is a decades old saying in the news business:
"If it bleeds, it leads."
There is a decades old saying in the news business:
"If it bleeds, it leads."
That's a "local tv news" saying.
"If it bleeds, it leads."
Just to discuss squicks -
"Old enough to bleed, old enough to breed."
Something I remember from my college days when we were discussing abnormal sexuality as regards to criminal law.
depends on the squick. someone who doesn't like paranormal elements can be turned off by a novel with the code "Vampire" Even if the story only had one scene with a Vampire in it. it completely changes the world of the story.
Confusion could very easily be avoided by adding tags to tags, so you have something like "romance (major)" and "rape (minor)", this would tell you that the focus of the story is on the romance, and that the rape is only a minor theme.
You could then narrow it down further by tagging stuff that happens only to side characters or only to the main cast.
Basically, tags as they are used most of the time are either too specific (the author tags every possible turn-on/squick, no matter how minor) or too general (omitting important tags that could be considered squick to the audience).
For example, I like harem stories, but I don't like it when the protagonist's women sleep around with other men, yet I don't really care if side characters engage in swinging and sharing.
Problem is, with the current way tags are used, I have no way of knowing if a story with both the "harem" and "sharing" tags apply to the main cast or not, or if the "harem" and "sharing" are central to the plot or themes that are only explored once.
no matter how minor
This was the point of my OP. The codes I listed in the OP are major squicks to some people so that even if they are minor in the story they need to be coded.
In the novel, it encompasses a few paragraphs of a 369-page novel. I can't imagine that someone would purposely not read the novel due to those few paragraphs. Yet, by blocking stories with just one of those codes on SOL would hide the story from them.
Maybe that's what readers who block codes on SOL want. They just need to know they may miss out on a gem.
In the novel, it encompasses a few paragraphs of a 369-page novel. I can't imagine that someone would purposely not read the novel due to those few paragraphs. Yet, by blocking stories with just one of those codes on SOL would hide the story from them.
It all comes down to how the section is worded and if the codes are applied properly. If the story includes a paragraph that gives graphic detail of the action, then it should be coded and people will avoid it to avoid such descriptions. However, if the mention is along the lines of an off screen mention such as 'they raped and tortured them to death' is all that's said, then it need not be coded and it's unlikely to hit any squicks.
However, if the mention is along the lines of an off screen mention
No, it was not described in detail. Reacher just came back from assassinating two people and someone from the National Security Admin he was assigned to on his new assignment asked him if he had any qualms about murdering them.
His response was the few paragraphs telling her what kind of men they were. He did not go into detail about the rape, but he said a battalion of men lined up at the door to use his wife and 8-yo daughter. And that his wife lived 24 hours and his daughter 8 hours because she bled out. And the husband kept banging his head against the wall trying to kill himself.
So the rape wasn't a blow-by-blow, but it was clear what happened. The "bleeding out" part was quite a visual and disturbed me.
So the rape and torture occurred off screen, but I've learned from experience that some SOL readers would still take issue with it because of the squickiness of those codes. Even though the author didn't describe it in detail, I saw it in my head.
So the rape and torture occurred off screen, but I've learned from experience that some SOL readers would still take issue with it because of the squickiness of those codes. Even though the author didn't describe it in detail, I saw it in my head.
And thus we come to the appropriate coding - my understanding of the SoL rules is you do not need to code for what happens off screen and isn't described in detail, but you do have to code for what is described in detail on screen. In the situation you describe it's off screen and doesn't need to be coded.
Maybe that's what readers who block codes on SOL want. They just need to know they may miss out on a gem.
Amazing as it may seem, some people do not want to read stories wherein children are raped to death, no matter how great you think they are.
do not want to read stories wherein children are raped to death,
It's not a story where a child is raped to death. It's THAT a child was raped to death.
I guess I'm more tolerant as a reader.
I guess I'm more tolerant as a reader.
No I think you are more of an adult and people should just grow up and realize that it is fiction and skip over parts which you don't enjoy. I don't like mass murder do you squick people think others shouldn't read about WWII and the holocaust?
Personally I don't block any codes. If a scene bothers me I try and skip past it, if that is impossible, I just close the story and read a different one.
I'm guessing there are some people that need a reality check. Mass murder, genocide, child rape/murder, slavery of various forms, snuff, and a few thousand other despicable acts are at a minimum, a semi-regular occurance. Burying your head in the sand will not change that. There are few story codes (i.e. science fiction, do-over, etc) here that don't have some basis in reality.
I've personally witnessed some extremely horrible things. Things that give me nightmares decades later. Things like watching a little girls head explode from being shot in the mountains of Columbia, an explosion that either dismembered and or burned to death eight people, nearly the entire town of Pisco Peru flattened in 2007, and other worse things.
Next to all that, the written word is nothing, not even a patch on the 'reality' that occurs every day on this planet.
The only true squick I have is when such events are glorified rather than reviled as they should be. An author portraying the worlds evil reality of the sub-humans among us should be welcomed as a teaching tool if nothing else.
I do some filtering partially due to personal preferences and partially due to the fact that in the US your reading habits can be used against you for various legal reasons. An easy example is a custody case where a father is fighting for custody of a daughter. All the wife has to say is "Your Honor, he likes to read daddy and underage daughter sex stories." Case over, you lose.
In the state, I live in up until a very a few years ago possession of any type of pornography could cause you to lose your State Licensure for several trades and businesses.
So I'm all for coding for squicks personal or otherwise.
I'm not sure that from a legal perspective, avoiding stories with certain codes would help you. The mere fact that you were reading stories from a site that contained certain codes would be all that interests a jury. A bit like being caught in a brothel that had underage kids- it doesn't matter if you had a granny fetish and you were there for some fun with an eighty year old, the fact that an eight year old kid was there would probably be enough to ruin your life, even if you didn't know she (or he) was there. You would still be tainted by association.
I've just finished a dead-tree 'bestseller' which included an innocent 13yo girl being raped, including anally with the sharp end of a knife.
When she got away, she staggered to safety with her ruined innards seeping down her legs.
Take a bow, Karin Slaughter. I liked her early Will Trent stories but I imagine this stand-alone novel might alienate some of her readers.
AJ
You focused on the girl, but I suspect the scene was about the assailant, not the victim; or possibly both. So describing the assailant's actions in morally corrupt and unacceptable actions is one approach to character development. However, your comment raised the question in my mind of, 'Is there a limit to how degrading an author should make a scene when developing a character?" Personally, I would say no, but I would also not write such a scene.
I haven't read the book, but the scene could be to show the assailant as a depraved criminal. Alternatively, it could be used to show the circumstances that the girl's character has to overcome.
She may alienate some of her readers, but I wonder how many new readers she will attract.
Take a bow, Karin Slaughter. I liked her early Will Trent stories but I imagine this stand-alone novel might alienate some of her readers.
Keep in mind something like this is actually tame in comparison to things I've read about and studied in real life. Yes, it's horrendous to think about this happening. Now go check out what some killers have actually done. Start with Ed Gein and his soup bowls made from human skulls, or his woman suit made from real flesh. (And if that sounds like something from Silence of the Lambs, that's because they partially based the killer ON Ed Gein.)
I did my corrections internship at the US Federal Penitentiary, Terre Haute - which has the only Federal death row in the country. There are some REALLY sick bastards in there. Just because a woman being raped was too swollen to have sex didn't stop one guy from cutting a slit in her stomach and fucking that.
There are innumerous horrors people(?) have inflicted upon other people. However rough and sickening something may sound, somewhere in time, it's already happened.
That said, gratuitous violence just for shock value should be avoided imo. If it fits the story then have at it, but it shouldn't be 'the' story in and of itself.
My .02
I completely agree with you.
I have several personal "Squicks" a primary one being Decapitation. I saw too much of that on my deployments. I wouldn't Block it, however, I would likely avoid a story in which it was described. "Off Screen" is another matter.
Despite enjoying much of the World Building, and Character Development, and generally good writing of George RR Martin, I eventually stopped reading "A Song of Fire and Ice" (Game of Thrones) and have never watched a full episode of the 8 Seasons. (I have watched numerous scenes on YouTube, etc.) Too much Rape & Decapitations.
Ah well.. here we go again. The point is well made, but it's onna those tedious gotcha's used to justify whatever point one wants to make. Has to do with context and expected readership. And we all know it!
Just freaking silly.
Am I the only one who like to get immersed when I read? I am very well aware that horrendous shit happens every day in reality, often more horrendous things than you find in your average books and stories.
However, when I read FICTION, I like to really immerse myself in the protagonist. And such, I try to read stories with protagonists that atleast share some similar values and morals that I can relate to. And when I'm immersed in a story, a squick can absolutely ruin it for me. It doesn't really matter if it's off screen or just happen in a paragraf or two. One of my biggest squicks is a common one, swinging. If it's mentioned that the protagonist and his love interest went to a swingers party, it has changed my entire perception of the protagonist, and it makes it much harder for me to relate to him. Even if it's just casually mentioned off screen and not graphic. That in turn will considerably lessen my enjoyment of the story, and I'll usually drop it or read it while feeling detached from it.
Latest example for me is Oscar Meyers. Really high rating, figured I'd give it a try. The main couple says that they both might play around with different people and I was instantly turned off from the story (I don't even know if they actually went through with it, as I dropped the story when they were talking about it).
I can definitely see how people who really want to avoid anything where a child get raped would want to avoid the book OP mentioned, even because of that paragraf.
I don't really buy the "you need a reality check, worse shit happens every day" argument. Just because the real world is full of bad shit, it doesn't mean that the pretend worlds you read about has to be as well.
I don't really buy the "you need a reality check, worse shit happens every day" argument. Just because the real world is full of bad shit, it doesn't mean that the pretend worlds you read about has to be as well.
No it doesn't mean it has to be as well. That much is true. However, it doesn't preclude it either. Since the rest of the world can't read your mind and they'd have varying opinions opposed to yours, it's highly unlikely you'll get it to change. Expecting them to change for you isn't reasonable.
I mostly agree with you.
For me its Tags such as "Furry" "Futari" or "Gender-Bender" nor do I enjoy most stories with M/M etc.
Mostly, its just because some things are "too silly" and force me out of the story. In a well written story I can accept Time Travel, FTL travel, Magic, and the "Super Natural" but "Furries" or "Magical" Gender switching break my ability to suspend disbelief.
I do read reviews, and I have read stories that contain elements I am not interested in (such as Man/Boy sex), if I can just skip over the scene and think okay "Ray & Jose" have a relationship, I just don't want to read their sex scenes.
but "Furries" or "Magical" Gender switching break my ability to suspend disbelief.
With the state of modern genetic engineering, real world furries may be only a generation or two away.
I Agree!
I have seen a couple of Huma... Freaks who have undergone "Lizardification"!!!
I have also seen some young women who Cosplay HOT Cat Girls, or other "Furies"...
There are things that are Real, that in a Story, can still Break My suspension of disbelief!
I have also seen some young women who Cosplay HOT Cat Girls, or other "Furies"...
I wasn't referring to tattoos, cosmetic surgery or costumes.
Modern genetic engineering has the potential to produce genuine biological anthropomorphized animals.
The only thing holding them back is government regulation. University Ethics boards, and public outcries accusing them of being mad scientists.
And I don't think those things will hold them back for long. Too many in that field seem to be taking the attitude that if it can be done, it must be done, if they don't do it, someone else will.
All I will say is that the only fail proof way to not encounter any squicks in what you read is to stop reading completely.
Having said that, a more moderate view might be to make a note about certain things that a particular author might include in their stories that are squirks to you and simply avoid them.
Can a story be benefited by a bit of the squick?
I've had some back and forth over squick avoidance in my story Blue Ribbon. https://storiesonline.net/s/15456/blue-ribbon
The story is about Leo who gains mind control powers at school, along with 5 others, and navigates the best and worst of himself until he's forced to make a stand over who and what he wants. There are other mind controllers in the story, with aggressive sexual needs, and Leo's unpreparedness puts the girls he collects at risk.
NTR can be a big turn off for some but the only other option was to lower the stakes and save every girl in the nick of time. As a writer, my biggest squick is plot armor. It's just bad drama to lower the stakes. However, letting any of his girls get fucked turned off a vocal portion of the audience. (I believe overrepresenting their numbers in the silent portions.)
So what should one do when squick conflicts with narrative? I'd always choose the narrative but is it the right choice?
Also doesn't help that my response to someone saying "This is why your story scored so deservedly low." is "So you're saying I should've made her humiliation worse and more graphic?"
So what should one do when squick conflicts with narrative? I'd always choose the narrative but is it the right choice?
For me as an author, the story comes first. If a reader doesn't like it, so be it.
For me as an author, the story comes first. If a reader doesn't like it, so be it.
Pffft, James Patterson will never hire you as one of his ghostwriters :)
AJ
So what should one do when squick conflicts with narrative?
In my opinion, there is no way to avoid squicks. What you find acceptable will often be objectionable to others. Regardless of the activity, someone will see the activity as a squick. For example, one of my acquaintances found my creasing a piece of folded paper by rubbing my finger across the fold to be objectionable. He said sound of my fingers sliding across the paper made him nauseous. He wanted me to crease the fold by pinching it between my fingers.
The only thing you can do is write your story as you think it should be written. Then add codes to identify what activities are present. In a long story there are probably more activities than the number of allowable codes; it's a no win situation. You can also add a comment in the story description to check the codes for squicks, which is another no win situation. You need to provide a good story description and want to alert readers, but you also have a limit on the number of characters that can be entered.
The only thing you can do is write your story as you think it should be written. Then add codes to identify what activities are present.
I list my novels on Amazon as erotica. I'm afraid if I don't and someone buys it and they read the graphic sex scenes they'll complain to Amazon and my account will be deleted. But I consider it in the "thriller" genre, not "erotica." In fact, my covers are thriller and not erotica.
I have on the cover of my Lincoln Steele series "an erotic thriller." Well, after having finished the draft of my latest one, I'm reading through it and realize there is not much sex in it (percentage wise). But when I do have sex, it's graphic and not necessarily the vanilla variety (non-consent, abuse, etc.) because the bad guys are really bad.
Crumbly recently said in an email that by classifying my novels as erotica I will lose readers because they'll think it's porn.
I guess I don't have a question. I'm just ranting. But what's an author to do?
For example, one of my acquaintances found my creasing a piece of folded paper by rubbing my finger across the fold to be objectionable.
Objectionable? Objectionable is too mild a word, sir! You're a monster! :D
I'm glad the consensus seems to be, write the story not the audience. I felt I did the right thing but the vocal portion of the audience is generally the complainers. I still think its a good idea to tamp down my kneejerk reaction to go balls deep into the squick and ramp everything up everything to eleven the moment someone tells me it ruined the story for them.
For example, one of my acquaintances found my creasing a piece of folded paper by rubbing my finger across the fold to be objectionable. He said sound of my fingers sliding across the paper made him nauseous. He wanted me to crease the fold by pinching it between my fingers.
Hand made 'artisan' paper.... [Has origamiasm]
I agree with your post. Mostly. Narative is very important. I dislike gratuitious gore/cruelty.
What is "NRT"? I am presuming its an abrivation for "Non-Consent"?
What is "NRT"? I am presuming its an abrivation for "Non-Consent"?
No, it's an abbreviation for Netorare, a Japanese henti/anima genre.
https://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=Netorare
Thank You.
I have seen Netorare on a few Hentai/Anime sites, but did Not know what it meant. I do have a rather extensive list of Terms printed out.
Some so I can properly Tag my stories. Some, so I know what stories to avoid!
Narative, and an individual's skill as a storyteller make significant difference, at least to me.
There are topics I don't enjoy, however, sometimes unpleasent events may be a character building experience.
Often it is a matter of how an event is described.
In a story I read here, Human Trafficers commit premeditatated Rape upon several girls/women 16-19, a girl 15 is not raped because selling her virginity is too valuable. There was some detail, but the Feel of the scene is of Violence, and it confirms what was earlier speculated on that girls and young women were being raped, prior to being forced into stripping an prostitution.
Earlier scenes had hinted (panties and other evidence found on the ground), some of the stripped described as being "Listless" and having "Dead Eyes" even a "suprising Lack of Street Prostitution" that girls and young women were being Trafficed, and that Rape was used to "Brake" them.
Most of this was "off Screen" or at least not detailed.
More importantly, these actions were depicted as acts of Violence, and depravity. Also, the fifteen-year-old virgin was rescued before being defiled; as were many of the trafficed women.
I found this to be good narative, despite skirting the edge of what I am willing to read. I have be disgusted by some other writers who depict violent rape in a manner that makes me percieve they enjoy reading about forciable rape. Detailing not merely the sexual satisfaction, but an emotional enjoyment of the sufferring of the victim.
This being significantly different from the codes "Reluctant" or even "Non-Concentual" Especially in fiction, one partner (most often the female) starting out reluctant, or even saying "No" as long as the narative reveals that the reluctant partner Really Did want their partner to be dominant.
(In some rare cases this could be a "missunderstanding" as long as there are Consequences.)
I have not read "Fifty Shades of Grey" but I have read, or participated in some light bondage, or "role playing" to satisfy the fantasies of a partner.
Often the Words could be identical, and the depeictions nearly so. Yet, there is a Feel to different naratives, one being of violence Inflicted upon an unwilling victim. The other is the fulfilment of a Fantasy (often of the person "not" concenting).
Back in college, I had a girlfriend who wanted to experiment with bondage. We went to several "Lover's Package" and XXX stores, where she found all of the chains to be unsatisfactory (she believed she cold break free). So, we ended up going to a hardware store to purchase quite substantial chains to attach to custom leather wrist and ankle cuffs.
When we fulfiled these Fantasies for her, she would fight against the chains, and she would yell and demand to be released (but Not use our agreed upon Safe Word). After each of these fantasies, she would assure me that it was What She Wanted. Fantasies her previous boyfriends were unable to be convincing in.
I had clearly been more than a little uncomfortable, especially the first time. She told me that added to her confidence I would have responded promptly If she Had used our Safe Word. Thus she felt comfortable indulging in her Fantasies! (She was a competative college, athlete, and had always felt she could have overpowered previous boyfriends.) After the first time, I grew to enjoy these occasional fantasies because she was extremely passionate and wonton. Also, these were an Occasional fantasy, Not something she wanted every time we had sex.
Until those experiences, I don't think I Really believed that a significant number of women had "Rape" / Bondage / "Non-Concent" Fantasies. Because I knew women and girls that had been raped, I had been dubious about such a "Fantasy" until induldging her in her desires.
Similarlly, how a "Rape" "Non-Concent" "Reluctant" or Bondage Scene is written makes a Significant difference between it having a spectrum from "Squick" to Yuck, to "Eh" to Okay, to "HOT!"
This may apply to just about Any Tag on SoL.
I just move on to anohter story if i encounter something wiht more than a suggestion or a hint of one of my squicks.
Even as an aside, an all too graphic discription of that 8-year old getting raped to death is more than I want to read about.
Real life has enough of that junk that I dont need or want it in the stories I read.
I read for fun. to realax and smile.
*shrug.
Shad
an all too graphic discription of that 8-year old getting raped to death is more than I want to read about.
Did you see the movie "A Time to Kill"? The young girl was raped, beaten, and left to die. It's been a while since I saw the movie, but they didn't actually show the rape, but they did tell what happened in some detail and showed the girl after the rape. It was clear what happened to her. (I have no idea how much detail John Grisham goes into in the novel.)
The detail is important to the story because it justifies why the father killed the two rapists. Avoiding the movie/novel because of the rape of a young girl would mean you missed a great one.
In my novel "High School Massacre" the heroine is sexually abused. It shows her sacrifice to protect her family. It shows how despicable the drug lord is and the corrupt sheriff and border guard. If someone gets off on the rape scenes, so be it. It wasn't written that way. When the scene is from her POV, it shows her anguish. When the scene is from the rapist's POV, it shows their evilness. So the sexual abuse scenes are used to both develop characters and plot.
There are thousands of good books out there. I can skip a few now and then, wihtout feeling like i missed anything.
I am not saying that i wont read anything that has uncomfortable scenes in it. hell, i have written a few of them myself. It is just that i rahter not.
Shad