Forum: Story Discussion and Feedback

Our glorious webmaster was going to impose an upper limit, not sure what happened there.

I believe the new limit of 50 has now been implemented, but there's no sensible way to enforce it retrospectively.

AJ

I believe the new limit of 50 has now been implemented, but there's no sensible way to enforce it retrospectively.

Lazeez hasn't the time to go through and check everything, but when the author accesses the story stats on the page where they can make changes they get a notice if there are more than 50 tags and they are asked to amend them. If you report it violators to Lazeez he'll probably message the author about changing it, and later take action if they don't.

edit to add: I know about this because it happened with one of my older stories Power Tool - when you have a 268,000 word story with a lot of sex scenes the codes can grow on you very quickly.

when you have a 268,000 word story with a lot of sex scenes the codes can grow on you very quickly.

Yep. My Legacy of a Legend at 435,000 words has 25 codes and maybe could have another half a dozen if you wanted to get technical about some of the things in it.

And if you're over in the Author's Forum, you'll see that Laz has added another couple for us to play with, too.

Well I have noticed how some writers will go back and add codes when either their readers suggest it or Laz adds new codes that fit their stories.

I don't think I've ever added a tag to an older story, probably because most newer tags don't particularly apply to my stories, but I have requested tags when a story needs it (like "fairies" and "dragons" rather than using the misleading "fairy tale" tag for a sci-fi story).

I believe the new limit of 50 has now been implemented, but there's no sensible way to enforce it retrospectively.

I think that, if you go over 30 and you have fewer than 80 chapters, then you're motorboating tags. Rather than listing every single sexual tag, just list "much sex" or "stroke" and readers get the point.

Personally, I think a few select authors see it as a personal challenge, trying to cross each tag off in the list as quickly as possible, just because they can't think of how to move the story forward with plot, characters or conflict.

Sure, if they are small chapters. Some authors write larger chapters.

I used to write 14,000 word chapters, and I've NEVER gone over a dozen (I'd have to check each specific story to be sure, though). Personally, I don't think story length has anything to do with the overall number of tags, as many epics don't fall into this trap. It's more an author's desire for tags rather than the stories need for them.

Rather than listing every single sexual tag, just list "much sex" or "stroke" and readers get the point.

I agree. Also if using more than a few tags under a category (IE the incest tags) instead of selecting each individual tag, just use the general category tag instead of all the individual tags, even if some of the specific tags don't apply.

I agree. Also if using more than a few tags under a category (IE the incest tags) instead of selecting each individual tag, just use the general category tag instead of all the individual tags, even if some of the specific tags don't apply.

Way back when, there was an active discussion where we floated the idea of 'category tags', which would specify 'everything in the specific category' instead of listing every single one (i.e. the category tags would be an entirely separate tag). But Lazeez quickly shot it down as being too difficult to maintain and keep track of.

Still, many of us continue to hold onto that ideal when adding our own tags.

we floated the idea of 'category tags', which would specify 'everything in the specific category'

Actually, the categories that are most likely to have a majority of the interrelated sub-category tags listed (Incest, BDSM, Interracial, Paranormal, Science Fiction) HAVE the category itself available as a tag. Just because every possible combination of incest occurs in the story except for grandma doesn't mean you have to select all the others. Just tag it as Incest and be done with it. Same with interracial. Just because your story doesn't include every type doesn't mean all have to be tagged except for the missing one.

Our glorious webmaster was going to impose an upper limit, not sure what happened there.
That particular author has a history of tag inflation. Personally, I avoid any story like that and would be happy to have "too many tags" (with a number) as a story exception criteria.

I think it should be subjective. Whenever we notice that sort of abuse, we let Lazeez know, and then he can place ALL the tags with a single "tagfag" tag, to let the author (and readers) know that we're onto him (no offense to the traditional fags intended (i.e. British cigarettes)).

Boy, I can see that quote popping up if I ever decide to run for office!

I agree.

I don't believe there are very many authors here that can handle ALL those elements effectively, and weave them into an interesting story. Just my two cents.

What's more, than that can won't time listing every damn tag. Relying on tags that extensively is more crutch than assistance.

For example, in my opinion, it's particularly hard to make science fiction and paranormal work in the same story.

Hey! I resemble that comment.

I can't even imagine how you have to look like resembling a comment.

Many of my stories feature paranormal sci-fi, though most often the simpler ones, like telepathy, telekenesis, etc.

In that case, I'd understand you resented DS' comment, but why would you resemble it?

It's a TV Trope (aka: "I resemble that remark"). I was making fun of the fact that his criticism of the use is essentially my bread and butter as an author.

And I didn't 'resent' his comment, I was just having fun with it. I enjoy tweaking the two genres and get them to work, so I don't take offense when others find it difficult.

And it's not that I personally find it hard to do as an author. As a reader, in my opinion, most of the attempts at it that I have read fail badly.

IMHO, that's mostly because the authors don't prioritize the story. You have to ask yourself, is this a sci-fi piece (i.e. what's your Primary genre) and what's secondary to that. For me, the stories work because I write 'hard sci-fi', meaning there's GOT to be a scientific explanation for the psychic abilities, so the abilities fit into the broader genre. I suspect that, where many authors run into trouble, is they're just writing out scenes and not thinking about how they fit into the story at all (like when you have vampires fighting werewolves in space for the love of the high-school beauty queen).

In short, they too end up as 'hot messes'.

With to many taqs

Sorry, but "with too many tags …"

The other day I saw a story on the home page where the list of tags was three times longer than the story blurb, and from the size of the story it probably had more words in the tags than in the story.

What's worse, the author probably used more time coming up with the tags than he did in constructing the story!

Authors need to think of their story description as their 'elevator speech', or how you'd sell a concept during an short elevator ride with someone influential (like a reader). If your description isn't both short and powerful, you're story is never going to fly. And when the tags declare that nothing the author does is either short nor powerful, there's little reason to bother with the story.

I didn't quite get the story shorter than the title, but I tried.

Sounds like a good basis for a special contest. lol.

Personelly, I only use basic genre tags and the sexual tags to warn of squick worthy content in my stories.

So if I have a character in story who frequently works out, I should label the entire story 'small breast' because someone who loves HHH-bra sizes might be 'offended' by someone who isn't likely to topple over at any moment, even if it has no relation to any specific sex act?

But I think more people would skip over a romantic consensual story that also includes the rape tag, than readers who are outraged because there was one rape scene in it. Same with a story including gay.

Sorry, but while we agree on your other point, I have to object to this one, as many romance stories start with someone having been raped in the past, thus it's a central component of the story, even if the story isn't 'about' the particularly scene at all.

I think that readers can understand this co-dependent relationship between the tags, as long as it's partially explained in the story description (ex: "After an attack, Susan thought she's never again trust love, but ...").

As for the other tag discussion, maybe we need a new tag, beyond the normal "gay" or "MM" tag of "homophobe", which labels ANY story where one man might desire another, whether they act on it or not. And while we're at it, how about a "Racist" tag, to label ANY story that features blacks having the same rights as 'normal' people.

Coding for squicks gets problematic fast, as you're no longer actually coding the story, but coding for things that really don't matter to the story at all.

Excellent idea - I have seen that warning a number of times when the normal tone of a story is changed (example: extreme violence in an otherwise staid story). Perhaps a tag with warning that it applies to a short section which can safely be missed

Pulling the rug out from under readers is always a call for 1-bombs, whether it's properly coded for or not. If you're going to throw something like that into a story, you'd best plan for it, and prepare the readers for it. That involves proper foreshadowing, so the readers are at least aware that it's a possibility.

But simply waking up one day, feeling particularly peevish and dumping on your readers for no apparent readers is NOT a way to win reader approvals.

There's a way to include controversial material in stories, and that's why, even when people protest my stories, they continue reading them.

Some of my biggest protests are when I kill of main characters, and readers protest that, 'although I read your repeated warnings, I assumed you'd never do it'. Yet, in each of those cases, while the scores dipped just after I posted the offending chapter, the stories' scores rose over time to some of my all time highs. So I must be doing something correctly.

dumping on your readers

Dumping from whose perspective?


Personally, I believe the Art of Writing includes presenting scenes in an unexpected and surprising manner. If a reader is caught off guard, then I've done a good job.

I wrote a story with 2 co-MCs who were happily married. The wife was pregnant when I killed her off. The first 8 chapters were sort of a romance story, but the chapters were a buildup leading to the revelation of the stories actual plot, which was not a romance story. The wife had to die and comeback as "spirit" for the plot to work.

I warned readers something unexpected would occur in the next few chapters without specifying what would happen.

When I killed her off, one reader swore she would never read another of my stories and another said that it was sad but death was just part of life.

If you are true to the Art, you will upset some readers when you have your characters do something that readers don't like.

You can't wrap up everyone in cotton batting to protect them from things they don't like.

I warned readers something unexpected would occur in the next few chapters without specifying what would happen.

When I killed her off, one reader swore she would never read another of my stories and another said that it was sad but death was just part of life.

I always get dumped on whenever I kill off my protagonist, which is discouraging, but long term, the stories where it happens have ended up with my highest scores. So despite the initial displeasure/disappointment, the stories seem to be stronger for it. Those that end with the traditional 'happy ending' aren't quite as enduring (at least in my experience.

However, there's a way to spring surprises on people. You don't just 'dump' it on people. Instead, you prepare them for the eventual scene by using foreshadowing. That doesn't mean that you include spoilers, but you provide enough context that, when the surprise happens, readers think 'Ah, I see it now'.

One of my strongest sellers was the one where I killed off every character in the book, only to 'bring back' two in the epilogue. About a full third insisted that they couldn't finish the story and had to quit. But because to of the character development, especially relating to each of those deaths, those readers insisted they were eager for the sequel, and the sequel sold better and had higher scores than the original, despite the fact that characters continued to do (just not as frequently).

That's the secret to foreshadowing. Readers will still be disappointed when a favorite character dies the the story is essentially over forever, but given time to grieve for the characters, they'll accept the deaths as necessary, and cherish the story for the issues it dealt with. However, when you don't prepare the readers, that frustration bubbles over, and they don't have the sense of the deaths being both inevitable and necessary to the story and instead feel cheated.

It's not about 'protecting readers from things they don't like', it's about providing context so even the surprises make sense when they occur. In other words, those surprises can't come in from left field, or simply be 'dumped' on the reader.

you prepare them for the eventual scene by using foreshadowing

in this instance foreshadowing was not an option. The wife went out with her parents to look at baby furniture. On the way home a drunk driver hit them and killed all 3. Yes I could have picked a different means of death, but this seemed more realistic to what happens to us on occasion. It was extremely damaging to the MC, and his mental state set up scenes for support by his friends and his subsequent recovery.

in this instance foreshadowing was not an option. The wife went out with her parents to look at baby furniture. On the way home a drunk driver hit them and killed all 3. Yes I could have picked a different means of death, but this seemed more realistic to what happens to us on occasion. It was extremely damaging to the MC, and his mental state set up scenes for support by his friends and his subsequent recovery.

Yeah, in that situation, the 'surprise' is difficult to foreshadow, but even then, I'd foreshadow many of the elements the character responds to afterwards. Thus I'd list the various things that ticked the character off about his wife and her family, as well as the things that endeared them. That way, while the initial shock is surprising, the character's response to it isn't. By basing his response to it on things you've already foreshadowed, it fits into a 'comfortable' pattern in the story, and it makes for a more seamless transition.

Like when I kill off my protagonists, you'll always get flak for it, but if you prepare for the big shock, the story will hold up over time and the one event won't have readers turning away.

Ah, but in this case the couple were perfect fit for each other. They formed a team to face life and had no significant problem with each other. There was no in-law problem either.

We talk about the afterlife. In Buddhism, the afterlife is a new level of existence. I adapted Buddhist beliefs with other concepts to define a series of levels. A person must learn a series of lessons at each level before they can move to the next higher level. The concept is a supporting detail, not a significant part of the story.

The couple were on Level 3 and they had a mental link. When she died, she was moved to level 4; even though she was not ready for existence on that level. Part of a subplot. Their link was still in place and since they were living on different levels (i.e., death is not the end of a person's life), so they could still 'talk' with each other after her death. A key element in the main plot. He was devastated until their link was reestablished.

There is far more to the story, but I won't spoil it for anyone who wants to read it. I wrote Chocolateen and the Ancient Abilities part 1. While writing Ancient Abilities, I decided to turn the two stories into cross-over stories. The recommended order in which to read the 4 stories is Chocolateen 1, Ancient Abilities 1, Chocolateen 2, Ancient Abilities 2.

I agree, when you look at tags as an advertisement of story content. But the tags are also a warning and the one gay scene in the last third of the story will get many readers very upset and rightfully so if it has not been coded.

In that case, I'd prefer a warning at the start of the chapter, rather than a tag labeling the entire story to be gay centered. That way, readers can simply 'skip over' the part they'd object to (and then, of course, they write to the author to complain that the story 'no longer makes any sense').

If every tag means the entire story is centered on that tag, a lot of stories would have quite a number of centers. Or in other words, I wouldn't use any of the sex content tags anymore because none of my stories centers around a specific sexual act or about sex in general. That in exchange would mean I'd have to warn at every damn chapter that contains a sex scene about the specific aspects of the scene. Thank you very much, but I prefere to stay with my personel view on the meaning of the tags, which also defines the way I use them.

Again, I've never used any of the various racial tags, despite having characters of various races in my stories, because the tags themselves are about sexual stereotypes, not about who the characters are.

We're drawing a distinction between sex-based tags and character-based tags. An "inc" tag should always be included in there is incest involved in the story, though if there's a single instance of some MM experimentation, I'd include it (without tags), but I'd include the warning (both for the specific chapter and also in the story description), because I don't want to be guilty of false advertising.

In that case, I'd prefer a warning at the start of the chapter, rather than a tag labeling the entire story to be gay centered.

CW,

I have to disagree with this approach. If I get well into a story only to suddenly find any sort of warning that I feel would've had me skip the story if it had been so tagged I'd dump the story and score it a 1 for poor writing by using deceptive practice to encourage people to read it when they would normally skip it.

I don't care what the tag is to do with. They're there to help people with deciding to read a story or not, thus anything that is not in the tag or the description on the story listing is an abuse of the tag system.

If it's a single scene that may squick people and you don't feel it should be tagged, then put a warning in the story description, but don't leave it to somewhere within the story to be found later.

If I get well into a story only to suddenly find any sort of warning that I feel would've had me skip the story

Do you throw away deadtree books if you come across something like that?

Do you throw away deadtree books if you come across something like that?

Used bookshops are handy for that, and so is the never read again author list.

I principally agree with you, although In this case I'd go with the minimal sex tag but I guess that was rather a mistake than a point of disagreement.

you're right, I don't do enough sex stories to remember the order of the categories between no and much.

I'd never tag 'small breasts' or 'big breasts' unless it amounts to a fetish within the story

agreed.

Lastly, I view the the 'interacial' tag and it's varying options as a warning of racist tendencies in a story.

I disagree. Miscegenation is still a squick for a large proportion of the planet, so even if there were no racism in the story whatsoever, I'd still advise adding the code. (Yes, that makes me a hypocrite).

AJ

I'm more inclined to say most of "the hottest" people on the planet are "mixed"

Can't argue with that. But, for example, the UK has a significant Asian population who'd happily throw acid or worse over a daughter if she started dating a white guy.

AJ

Miscegenation

Two people of different races having kids and having sex are different things and neither is a racist activity. We don't have a code for Miscegenation or for Racist activities. Personally, I don't think we need the codes.

Two people of different races having kids and having sex are different things and neither is a racist activity. We don't have a code for Miscegenation or for Racist activities. Personally, I don't think we need the codes.

I agree, and (in my mind) the use of the racially distinctive codes should only be used where the racial difference is included as a fetish type reason. If a character is seeking out persons of another ethnic ot racial group for sex because they prefer that group as sex partners, then the code is appropriate, if it just so happens the two characters are of different ethnic or racial groups and those aspects of their background play no part in their actions then the tags for ethnic or racial mixing aren't relevant.

and (in my mind) the use of the racially distinctive codes should only be used where the racial difference is included as a fetish type reason.

Whoa, you gotta be careful there. I have interracial and slavery in my most recent story. Those looking for that fetish will hate the story. But they're integral to the story and a big part of the story. And that's what story codes are for.

I disagree. The site description is:

"Interracial Sexual partners of different races"

Nothing about racism. Your current story includes instances of racism but I personally wouldn't use the interracial tag for that reason alone.

AJ

So why should I apply the 'interracial' tag just because some people aren't as lily white as others?

I don't think you should, unless the characters are indulging in sex.

I didn't specify any racial features in this fantasy setting.

I thought I'd seen references to skin colour. Even if I'm wrong, your story includes several different races that dislike each other.

AJ

Even if I'm wrong, your story includes several different races that dislike each other.

If we are thinking of the same story, the dislike is not based on skin color, but on political/economic reasons.

If we are thinking of the same story, the dislike is not based on skin color, but on political/economic reasons.

We Brits (mostly) hate the French and the Germans and the Spanish. Even though we (mostly) share the same skin colour, newspaper sentiments such as 'Hop Off You Frogs' seem pretty racist to me.

And yet that creates an inconsistency in my opinions. I think readers would expect an 'interracial' story to involve sex between protagonists of different skin colours.

Ho hum!

AJ

I think readers would expect an 'interracial' story to involve sex between protagonists of different skin colours.

Why would they think that is true in all cases? The story could be about an interracial couple in a non-racial conflict.

Why would they think that is true in all cases? The story could be about an interracial couple in a non-racial conflict.

Read the damn codes! You don't tag the story because you're a racist, you code the story because the sexual games they're playing are based on sexual stereotypes.

Consider the white men who, despite all outward signs, love to have sex with tiny Asian women, who straight-laced white women who love the idea of dalliances with the proverbial big black men. Racial animus is common in many sexual fantasies, as it's how we, as human beings, cope with our conflicting natures.

Read the damn codes!

I suggest you read the post comment that I was responding to before you go off half-cocked. My post had nothing to do with the codes. Awnlee's stated:

I think readers would expect an 'interracial' story to involve sex between protagonists of different skin colours.

Why would an interracial story have to be about protagonist having sex. They could be friends, allies, or strangers. Why protagonists?

Why would an interracial story have to be about protagonist having sex. They could be friends, allies, or strangers. Why protagonists?

Simple assumption. My stories usually revolve around the protagonists, but many author's revolve around the antagonist, or even the many secondary characters.

But I think we've established our positions, and that you did NOT intend to redefine the story tag, so I'll drop all of my objections.

The French police always target cars with GB plates, even when the drivers aren't doing anything wrong, and they stiffed us when we joined the Common Market. The Germans always beat us on penalties. The Spanish are always trying to nick Gibraltar, and they supported the Argies during the Falklands War. ;)

Feel the hate!

AJ

Targeting cars with GB plates - yes because of the number of such cars seen massacring the speed limits or otherwise breaking very simple regulations - Brits are notorious for that, especially around Calais.

I have no personal experience, just newspaper reports plus the word of friends who made frequent trips to Europe on business.

AJ

And yet that creates an inconsistency in my opinions. I think readers would expect an 'interracial' story to involve sex between protagonists of different skin colours.

What's more, it's that inherent conflicts in relationships that drive stories. What's stronger than a love story with an undercurrent of open hostility, as readers wonder when the entire thing is going to explode? Introducing those types of conflict is the job of the writer. Mary Sue stories end up being fairly boring, because there's no real conflict, because we know that the Mary Sue character is always going to win.

The key, is to recognize that two people can both love each other while also hating what they represent in their lives, and play on that to illustrate the ongoing conflicts in readers' lives, so that the story feels 'real' and personal to them.

So why should I apply the 'interracial' tag just because some people aren't as lily white as others?

I don't think you should, unless the characters are indulging in sex.

This goes back to SOL being a sex story site or a story site. I believe the story codes are tied to sex stories. If that's the case, then an interracial couple needs to have sex for the story code to be used. If the codes are used equally for no-sex stories, then it should be used for an interracial relationship.

I once used an example of a no-sex story about the relationship between a male coach and a male teenager. Ma/mt is the code for that. But if someone saw that, they'd assume a gay story.

Both interracial and Ma/mt on SOL must be sex related. They don't exist on Finestories.

I also don't apply the 'oral sex' tag just because some guy gets a blow job

Imagine this single occurrence scenario: During the progress of the story, it is rumored that Jim and Bob are gay, even though it isn't true. Jerry and Juan are two of the bigmouths spreading the rumor. Tom sees Bob come out of the restroom looking pale and asks what is wrong. Bob says he just walked in on Jerry getting a blowjob from Juan and gives a brief description of what he saw. This occurs in chapter 15 of 28 and is the ONLY instance of m/m or sexual activity between individuals whose racial stock is fairly obvious.

Should this story be coded with m/m, interracial, and gay? Some would say yes as all three things happen and would '1-bomb' for not using the tags.

As stated earlier, I don't read m/m stories. However, if I was reading the story described above, I would not run screaming into the night at the mention of a m/m blowjob - and I wouldn't expect that example to be worthy of a code unless it was described in detail, or was integral to the ongoing plot.

I'm not that easily offended.

I agree. yet there are some who have insinuated that it should have been coded as all three or they would 1-bomb the story.

I recently skipped almost an entire chapter of an ongoing story because of the subject matter which took up most that one chapter. I didn't 1-bomb, but I did send the author a note that I was disappointed in that particular chapter. Did I stop reading the story or any others by the same author? Nope. I was too engrossed in the main story to be put off by something I could easily avoid by skipping ahead. Just knowing the theme of what had occurred in the section I skipped was enough information to understand later interactions of the characters involved.

ETA: I did send a followup message to the author letting him know how much I enjoyed the following chapter and that I plan to continue reading his work as it becomes available.

Too bad I can't avoid the 'noise' coming from certain vehicles as easily.

Too bad I can't avoid the 'noise' coming from certain vehicles as easily.

Yeah, I hate it when choppers drive by my house, because it makes concentrating on stories so difficult. 'D

Yeah, I hate it when choppers drive by my house, because it makes concentrating on stories so difficult. 'D

I was referring to the 'thumping' coming from vehicles with more audio amplifiers than most concerts. You know, the ones you hear coming three or more blocks away and, if they pull up next to you at a traffic light, you can't hear your own music even if you turn it up full.

I also don't apply the 'oral sex' tag just because some guy gets a blow job. So why should I apply the 'interracial' tag just because some people aren't as lily white as others?

That's the whole point. You wouldn't! You only use the various racial codes when you're using racial stereotypes to describes sex acts, otherwise, you NEVER use the tags. You'll notice there is NO tag for SBM (small, or even 'medium-sized' black men, only BIG black men).

However, there IS no code for 'racism'. If you want to use one, include it in your story description, as it's not the kind of thing which would attract many readers to the site, while most people recognize what "BBM" or "Asian" refers to without having to overthink it.

The 'interracial' tag is justified because you have racist characters

Interracial is about people of different races interacting. If none of the people are racists, it is still appropriate.

We don't have a Racist code. Using Interracial to mean Racist is an inaccurate use of the code. A warning would be more appropriate.

That's my point of view

We all view things differently. I won't try to change your mind, but I don't see two people of different races engaged in a loving sexual relationship as being racist.

Whatever gave you that idea? All I ever statet is that I wouldn't apply the tag without racist happenings in a story.

Your decision gave me that idea. You would not have made that decision if you did not consider sex between two people of different races to be related to a racist actions.

Or you are fooling yourself regarding your motivation.

I can only determine what your attitude is by what you say. What you say is founded in your belief system.

What I do is accept your statements at face value. I am not assuming what you write, I'm reading it. If what you write matches something I've experienced in the past, I draw a conclusion. I agree conclusions are similar to assumptions.

We all view things differently. I won't try to change your mind, but I don't see two people of different races engaged in a loving sexual relationship as being racist.

Just because two people supposedly love each other doesn't mean they can't also hate or despise them. Most families have the proverbial racist grandfather/grandchild, and consider how many mothers and fathers toss their children into the streets simply because they can't accept their declarations that they're homosexual. Does their love simply stop on that day, or are their expectations at war with their love for one another?

Having raised two interracial kids, I'd continually find myself reacting in unexpected ways, to my wife, the kids and their friends. Despite how much I learned about their culture and them as individuals, it's difficult turning off those stereotypes, which is often the first thing you turn to when something unexpected happens.

So yeah, you can be both racist and loving. It happens ALL the time!

If you check the context, the passage was to counter Robberhands statements. I did not intend it to exclude other combinations.

If you check the context, the passage was to counter Robberhands statements. I did not intend it to exclude other combinations.

Understood. That's happens here so often, it's almost an understanding here. We often respond to others, rather than speaking about the topic writ large, so it's easy to take the responses out of context.

That may be your opinion but it isn't mine.

It doesn't matter, what matters is what readers would expect. If you use "M" to mean "yellow parrot", then expect to take some heat for it. But if every author 'invents' their own definitions for each story tag, then we'll have utter chaos when it comes time to evaluate what any particular story is about.

In my case, there are whole classes of tags I wouldn't approach with a ten-foot pole. Rather than simply 'redefining' what I think they SHOULD mean, I simply avoid them altogether.

If the interracial relationship between characters is just a 'normal' love affair, I wouldn't apply the 'interracial' tag.

I don't believe that's SOL's definition.

I pretty sure we don't have to argue about the definition of 'Big Breasts'. I also won't apply the 'Big Breasts' tag when a woman with big breasts in my stories has sex.

It's not a question of the code definition, it's a question when to apply a tag.

That's a fair assessment, but it's also one that most of us have failed on occasion, as we try to discern when to apply a tag and when not to. Sometimes we get called on it directly, but mostly we wonder 'why are my scores so low for this particular story?'

If the interracial relationship between characters is just a 'normal' love affair, I wouldn't apply the 'interracial' tag.

I don't believe that's SOL's definition.

Sorry, Switch, but you're wrong on this count. As many others have pointed out, a 'normal' love affair between people of two different races doesn't rate an 'interracial' coding simply because a few avowed racists take offense at anything which isn't 'Lily White' (no offense to any Lily's in the field). It's only when it rises to a sexual kink, with little long-term interest in an actual relationship, that the term applies.

I'm with robberhands on this one. While I'll call him when he gets things wrong, I'll also call you on when you get things wrong too. (But, whenever I realize I get things wrong, I simply shut up and move on, rather than belabor the point since I'm already embarrassed enough.)

Sorry, Switch, but you're wrong on this count. As many others have pointed out, a 'normal' love affair between people of two different races doesn't rate an 'interracial'

SOL definition:

Interracial = Sexual partners of different races

So if that love affair includes sex, it's interracial per SOL's definition.

SOL definition:

Interracial = Sexual partners of different races

So if that love affair includes sex, it's interracial per SOL's definition.

Maybe it's just me, but I don't know of anyone who searches for 'interracial' stories unless they're searching for a particular type of story. Few come on the site saying 'I wonder if I can find any Georgian/South Guinean combinations'. As such, I won't label a story with a single black character a black story whether that character has sex or not.

Maybe it's just me, but I don't know of anyone who searches for 'interracial' stories

I seem to recall you saying an author should add codes applicable to the content of the story. I sounds like you are now saying the author shouldn't add codes for stories the readers won't want to search for.

Make up you mind.

I agree with SB. If a story contains scenes with a mixed race couple having sex, add the code. It doesn't matter it they are a loving couple or two people who hate each others guts. They are having sex so add the code. It also doesn't matter if the sex is voluntary or rape.

If a story contains scenes with a mixed race couple having sex, add the code. It doesn't matter it they are a loving couple or two people who hate each others guts. They are having sex so add the code. It also doesn't matter if the sex is voluntary or rape.

I'd add the caveat that in the situation described it would have to be a graphic sex scene. Just having two people of different skin colours having a relationship with no on-screen sex wouldn't justify the code in my mind, unless it was the racial difference aspect that was what brought them together.

Example, person goes out looking for a person for sex and is only looking for people of another racial group qualifies, while if the racial group has no bearing on the meeting and relationship it doesn't qualify.

no on-screen sex

Maybe I'm reading something into you post, but I did say:

If a story contains scenes with a mixed race couple having sex

and I agree with you - no on-screen sex, no code.

Maybe it's just me, but I don't know of anyone who searches for 'interracial' stories unless they're searching for a particular type of story.

But that's putting your own stereotype on it.

In fairness, that's probably how the interracial story code came about. But the site has evolved since it's early days.

I never received a complaint about my application of story tags.

I have. I used to write a lot of non-consent stories with blackmail, coercion, etc. I tagged them as non-consent and the applicable type. Readers complained that I didn't have the rape code.

Since it wasn't a violent knock-down rape, I didn't include it. The readers didn't agree. To them, non-consent = rape.

Authors can only do what they think is right.

Since it wasn't a violent knock-down rape, I didn't include it. The readers didn't agree. To them, non-consent = rape.

The technical definition of rape has gradually evolved over time. At one point, it was physically impossible to rape a woman who you were married to. Now, in the #metoo generation, any type of forced sexual act is a rape, no matter how you try to justify the act to yourself. That's how President Clinton got into trouble, saying "I did not have sex with that women" because he (supposedly) never had dick-in-vagina intercourse with her. And look what trouble it landed him in parsing his terms so carefully.

The technical definition of rape has gradually evolved over time.

I'm posting on SOL so I'm using SOL's definition.

Consensual sex with a minor is legally rape, but on SOL it's not even non-consent.

If the interracial relationship between characters is just a 'normal' love affair, I wouldn't apply the 'interracial' tag.

I trust we ALL agree on this point, everyone's objection was your initial claim that you were free to define a tag 'however you chose'.

I trust we ALL agree on this point

Interracial: Sexual partners of different races

The definition says nothing about 'excluding a normal love affair'.

AJ

The 'interracial' tag is justified because you have racist characters acting in your story. If you wouldn't, you also wouldn't need that tag.

Sorry, but the 'interracial' tag doesn't refer to 'interracial attitudes', but refers specifically to interracial sexual acts (i.e. it's a sex code, not a social code). You may want to use it for other purposes, but readers are unlikely to accept your unfounded definition of the term, and are likely to respond negatively to your misbegotten usage of the tag.

Personally, I'd prefer that we replaced all those various interracial tags (ex: (BBM)) with a single tag ('racist content').

Good luck, CW.

Robberhands refuses to accept Lazeez's definition of 'interracial'. He seems to read Racist into the Lazeez's definition and refuses to accept what it actually says.

I argued the point with him and he said I had my definition, which was Lazeez's, and he had his.

The only way I see someone getting Racist out of Lazeez' definition is if they believe sex between two people of different races is a Racist act.

the bad guys are slavers and racists).

Yes it is true. SB's story has white characters who are racists. Those characters do rape black women. The rapes are motivated by their racist leaning. All true.

The point you keep missing is, SB included the Interracial tag because white men have sex with black women. Lazeez's definition of the tag is people of different races engaging in sex. Inclusion of the tag was based on Lazeez definition and had nothing to do with the men being Racists or with the rapes being Racist acts.

The point you keep missing is, SB included the Interracial tag because white men have sex with black women.

True.

What I did was representing my personal opinion on the matter.

I can accept your earlier comments being a personal opinion.

I didn't have to read SB mind about why he added the interracial code. I sent him a feedback message and we chatted.

Accepted.

The story type codes aside, all codes are sexual content codes.

While a lot of them are related to described sexual activity, not all codes are. The Interracial code relates specifically to described interracial sex because it says so in the definition. Thus if there's no sex described between the 2 characters that code isn't relevant to the story.

However, unless the interracial aspect is seen as a fetish aspect of the sexual encounter described, I doubt many authors would list it.

However, unless the interracial aspect is seen as a fetish aspect of the sexual encounter described, I doubt many authors would list it.

I would. I did.

Ernest, you don't see American TV commercials, but I've noticed recently that a significant number of them have interracial couples and mixed raced children. Knowing the advertising industry, this is not an accident. They are targeting a group of people. The story codes are used to target potential readers.

Ernest, you don't see American TV commercials, but I've noticed recently that a significant number of them have interracial couples and mixed raced children. Knowing the advertising industry, this is not an accident. They are targeting a group of people.

SB, I've seen some US ads on some of the YouTube videos I've watched. I've also seen a lot of rhetoric over the last decade about TV ads around the world. While it is possible the US ad companies are targeting different racial groups I think it's much more likely they're trying to avoid being targeted by the abusive leftists for not having different racial groups in their ads so they stick them in to avoid being accused of racism. We've seen that happening in a lot of the visual media over the last two decades or more.

While it is possible the US ad companies are targeting different racial groups I think it's much more likely they're trying to avoid being targeted by the abusive leftists for not having different racial groups in their ads so they stick them in to avoid being accused of racism.

I think it's moved beyond that. The only ones who continue to insist on that interpretation are the outright racist and the political parties who cater to them. Instead, at least in the U.S., the various ad agencies have recognized that most families have at least one interracial coupling among them, so they're now targeting themselves in a way that'll appeal to ALL buyers, rather than continuing to insist that the other races simply don't exist other than as the proverbial bad guys who do evil things to decent white folk.

In the UK, amongst the metropolitan elite, it's considered brave and edgy to have a POC cast in the role of a white character, but it's considered racist to have a white person playing a POC character :(

AJ

Some descendants of Caribbean immigrants consider the term 'person of colour' to be derogatory. And yet it seems to be on-trend amongst the Twitterati, especially some agents and publishers who positively discriminate in favour of POC literature (provided it's not written by a white author).

AJ

a POC cast in the role of a white character

I don't remember who it was, but a black actor wanted to play James Bond. He said his color shouldn't matter. *shakes head*

There was much speculation, and no little metropolitan support for, Idris Elba to be the next James Bond. I don't think he positively agitated for it though. IIRC Daniel Craig agreed to another film, despite intimating it was time to quit, so the whole question's on ice.

AJ

What would be funny is if they did a female Bond.

Funnier than a female Dr Who?

AJ

Felix Leiter changed skin colour. Perhaps James Bond could self-identify as female (yet keep his functional wedding tackle) to qualify for the Labour Party's all-women transgender-friendly shortlists.

AJ

Felix Leiter changed skin colour. Perhaps James Bond could self-identify as female (yet keep his functional wedding tackle) to qualify for the Labour Party's all-women transgender-friendly shortlists.

A better plot, would have James' illegitimate daughter going into his field with a chip on her shoulder, based on his inability to bond with anyone, despite how often he sweet-talks information out of people. Whenever you're overly nice, she's likely to slice your balls off. Instant conflict which taints any relationships across the entire story.

Will she murder M at a moment's notice? Who knows, but they keep hiring her, because she's so efficient at surprising, killing and disposing of bodies in creative ways.

What would be funny is if they did a female Bond.

"What's your name?"

"Bond, Jamie Bond. What's yours?"

"Dicky Galore."

"You're a cocky chap."

"What's your name?"

"Bond, Jamie Bond. What's yours?"

"Dicky Galore."

"You're a cocky chap."

Or:

"Bond, Jamie Bond."

"Dick Trickle!"

"Pass."

(NASCAR driver whose parents should be beaten for naming their kid Richard Trickle)

"Dick Trickle!"

It was the male Pussy Galore.

James Bond/Pussy Galore
Jamie Bond/Dicky Galore

(NASCAR driver whose parents should be beaten for naming their kid Richard Trickle)

Not as bad as the Richard I knew with the surname 'Legg'

:D That's exactly the sort of humor I was thinking of.

They could have a guy named Dick Pussey who was a more active type.

Ernest, you don't see American TV commercials, but I've noticed recently that a significant number of them have interracial couples and mixed raced children. Knowing the advertising industry, this is not an accident. They are targeting a group of people. The story codes are used to target potential readers.

I've got many stories with characters from various racial backgrounds. I've yet to label a single one as 'interracial', simply because of the baggage that tag implies. I'd rather that readers, eager for those types of stories, would happen upon my stories accidentally and say 'Wow, a story that's similar to my own', rather than guessing 'I wonder if this is just another racial stereotype?'

Despite having raised an interracial family, I'd avoid ANY story with an interracial tag!

raised an interracial family

Is that an accepted American usage of the word interracial?

In British English, I would say that Barack Obama was a mixed-race President, not an interracial President.

AJ

In British English, I would say that Barack Obama was a mixed-race President, not an interracial President.

he was a mixed race child born in an interracial relationships, and while they lived together it was an interracial family.

Oops, I should have gone for a different quote: "Having raised two interracial kids".

I wouldn't use 'interracial family' - IMO interracial requires two parties but family is singular so I'd use 'mixed race' family instead.

AJ

I wouldn't use 'interracial family' - IMO interracial requires two parties but family is singular so I'd use 'mixed race' family instead.

Normally, I would too, but I was commenting from the US view point and terminology.

To prove my point if you read my story Mack you'll see I've a huge number of scene involving people of different racial backgrounds while I rarely mention that point. The main character, Mack, ends up with two wives who are Aboriginals (who are dark skinned) but while I mention their Aboriginal heritage at various points where it's relevant I never use the term interracial or view it that way as I view them as three people of similar ages - end of story.

The story type codes aside, all codes are sexual content codes.

While a lot of them are related to described sexual activity, not all codes are.

Not lecturing you, since you were arguing with robberhands, this response is echoing your sentiments rather than arguing with your point, Ernest.

It you (robberhands, or anyone else) examine the code declarations when you post a story, the sex-based codes are clearly labeled "Sex codes". There IS no "Racist codes", but the racist stereotyping is implied and it's generally understood that everyone understands the implications.

Not lecturing you, since you were arguing with robberhands, this response is echoing your sentiments rather than arguing with your point, Ernest.

It you (robberhands, or anyone else) examine the code declarations when you post a story, the sex-based codes are clearly labeled "Sex codes". There IS no "Racist codes", but the racist stereotyping is implied and it's generally understood that everyone understands the implications.

CW, I suggest you go back and read what I said in that post and look at the code definitions. In the sentence of mine you quote I was stating a fact, not providing an argument or sentiment. In the second paragraph I covered the Interracial code and pointed it it involved sex. In the whole post I deliberately avoided the racist aspects.

There are many codes that have no sexual content and aspects and when you lodge a story in the wizard if you code it as no sex a lot of the code definitions are no longer available to you because they are used only for sex stories. Obvious non-sex codes are in the groups Story Types, Science Fiction, Paranormal, Other - while those codes are not sexual activity codes they can apply to stories without sexual activity or with sexual activity as they relate to the story plot and type.

Personally, I'd prefer that we replaced all those various interracial tags (ex: (BBM)) with a single tag ('racist content').

I'd say 99+% of the interracial stories are not racist stories. It's the "well-hung black man/white woman who can't get enough of it" stories.

It's the "well-hung black man/white woman who can't get enough of it" stories.

I'll believe that when you show me all the stories labeled SBM or MBM. The fact is those codes aren't about racism itself, but are based on the kinks people enjoy reveling in racist stereotypes. Those people choose to buy into the racist claims, and the stories ONLY feature the same tired racial stereotypes. Believe it or not, not all black men have 12" cocks, not all are thugs and not all of them deal drugs. If they included a little variation in their character descriptions, then maybe more people would take those stories seriously.

BBM isn't a SOL tag. However it's the code for Battambang Airport in Cambodia.

AJ

BBM isn't a SOL tag. However it's the code for Battambang Airport in Cambodia.

Hmm, I seem to remember it being one, but I suspect that's because the "black" tag is so often interpreted as referring to the stereotypical "Big Black Male" often portrayed in rape fantasies.

I agree, but I recognise that some people are turned off by interracial sex and it wouldn't harm an author to use the 'interracial' tag as a squick alert.

AJ

I agree, but I recognise that some people are turned off by interracial sex and it wouldn't harm an author to use the 'interracial' tag as a squick alert.

Just curious now. What would you think of a story with Sarek of Vulcan and Amanda Grayson, versus something between Nyota Uhura and Hikaru Sulu? (The actual characters, not the actors.) The first would be interracial, since Vulcans and Humans are different races, while the second wouldn't, because both are Human.

The first would be interracial, since Vulcans and Humans are different races, while the second wouldn't, because both are Human.

Having just completed a story like that, I've got to object to your terms. The first is clearly 'interspecies', while the latter is 'interracial', a largely nebulous concept based almost exclusively on the particular shade of someone's skin, with virtually NO specific scientific basis.

Warning: don't get me started, as I raised two mixed-race kids, and I personally witnessed the unwarranted attacks they faced for something they had no control over.

Warning: don't get me started

Not trying to get you riled up. Simply pointing out how something might appear otherwise if we did meet up with other intelligent races from another planet.

Keep in mind we're now less than 45 years from First Contact. I specifically said races instead of species because my example was based in the Star Trek universe, and in that universe, all hominid life had common ancestors. That's WHY Vulcans or Betazoids (or Klingons or Cardassians, even) could mate with Humans and produce progeny.

It would be interspecies if a Horta mated with a Human, because there were no common ancestors.

Yeah, I may also be a bit of a Trekkie ...

Keep in mind we're now less than 45 years from First Contact.

First contact hasn't occurred that we know of other than what you read in National Enquirer. So since it hasn't happened in recorded history, what make you thing it is going to happen in the next 45 years. Is someone from outer space telling you they are coming or is someone making unsubstantiated predictions.

Of course, also by Trek Lore we should have already fought the Eugenics Wars against Khan and he should have fled on a cryogenic sleeper ship, among other significant events.

Alternate universes. Not necessarily totally of the 'Mirror, Mirror' episode type (although I did like Spock with a beard), but once you go back into the past, are you sure you're returning to the future of your OWN timeline, because with alternate universes, THE timeline is equally valid across ALL the universes.

According to the film the first contact will happen in 2067.

Ah, that completely flew over my head. I've got this annoying habit of thinking there's a difference between fact and fantasy.

First contact hasn't occurred that we know of other than what you read in National Enquirer. So since it hasn't happened in recorded history, what make you thing it is going to happen in the next 45 years. Is someone from outer space telling you they are coming or is someone making unsubstantiated predictions.

You're (StarFleet Carl) also assuming that 1) we'll eventually reach those habitable planets near us in the next 45 years, 2) that they'll contain intelligent life who are receptive to speaking with us, and 3) that we'll actually send a human being on those life-long missions, rather than a robotic camera. On top of all of those doubts, you're presuming all those pieces will fall together at a very precise point in the future, with no complications, hampering the effort.

Since you appear to be addressing Starfleet Carl's post, why didn't you address it to him?

what could we possible have that they would come this far to get?

Stories on SOL.

We are in a relatively out of the way area of our galaxy. Why would they come here?

They likely originate from an older solar system than our own and IIRC, that means further from the galactic centre. Their easiest and most beneficial route of progression would be to work their way inwards along their spiral arm rather than crossing between spiral arms, and if we happen to lie en route ...

Given that they clearly have much more advanced technology, what could we possible have that they would come this far to get?

They'd probably keep the hell away from us because we're such selfish, uncivilised bastards.

In fact I postulate that any 'hello' signal they transmit will require the processing power of sentient artificial intelligences to interpret, since a society controlled by such machine intelligences will surely be less irrational than us glorified apes.

They might actually be transmitting such a signal at the moment, but we're too dumb to recognise it.

AJ

We are in a relatively out of the way area of our galaxy. Why would they come here?

What if they were even further out and decided to just stop by on their way to the center of the galaxy. :)

that we'll actually send a human being on those life-long missions, rather than a robotic camera. On top of all of those doubts, you're presuming all those pieces will fall together at a very precise point in the future, with no complications, hampering the effort.

We didn't (or won't) send a human out. The Vulcans are (or will be) simply passing by and going to ignore us.

Apropos of nothing to do with this post, did I end up sending you the apology for misunderstanding something that I wrote and posted the other evening, or am I just thinking I sent that to you, because I really don't remember, and I can't find it posted here?

I'm not familiar with those characters but, from your descriptions, IMO the tag 'interracial' should be used in the second case to avoid upsetting racist squicksters.

Others may have different opinions.

AJ

I'm not familiar with those characters

They are all characters from 'Star Trek'.

Sarek of Vulcan (Race = Vulcan) and Amanda Grayson (Race = Earth Human) are Spock's parents.

Nyota Uhura (Swahili ancestry) and Hikaru Sulu (Japanese ancestry) are both Earth Human. I use the term 'Earth Human' since the human race has moved out into the stars.

I'm not familiar with those characters

Note my handle ... I may be a bit of a Star Trek fan (since about 1966, actually).

but I recognise that some people are turned off

Our readers have many squicks. If we code a story to alert every reader to every possible squick, then our list of codes and warnings in the chapters could be longer than the story.

For example: Taking a bath in jello (flavored gelatin) might be a squick to some people. Would you add that as a code or warning if someone in your story liked to bath in jello?

Miscegenation is still a squick for a large proportion of the planet, so even if there were no racism in the story whatsoever, I'd still advise adding the code. (Yes, that makes me a hypocrite).

Personally, I'd consider each 1-bomb by an outright racist to be a badge of honor to be worn proudly and defiantly. You can't expect to cater to the lowest rung on the moral ladder and still claim credibility with anyone.

With my own 1-bombers, I engaged in discussions with them, suggesting alternatives in the story line, but assuming they had me on the ropes, they demanded that I make specific political statements of their own choosing, at which point I said "FU" and doubled down, making the statements even more pointed.

If you aren't willing to compromise with someone, you can't dictate what's an acceptable practice, as it reduces your protest to simple schoolyard threats. If you want an author to tout your party line, then write your own political screed. In my case, I don't write political screeds, I instead write fiction stories that sometimes have a character with a particular political inclination.

Furthermore, I'd never tag 'small breasts' or 'big breasts' unless it amounts to a fetish within the story, which also defines my view on many sex content tags. Lastly, I view the 'interacial' tag and its varying options as a warning of racist tendencies in a story.

The "small breasts"/"big breasts" discussion was my absurdum argument (look it up if anyone is unfamiliar with the term). As for the 'racist tendencies' tag, that was my point, that many of the tags only apply to very specific uses, and are best avoided wholesale by most authors.

Incest code tag I would expect to see a mix on incestuous relationships while a story with only one or two of the incest relationship tags would be limited to only those couple of relationships.

Except Category Search wouldn't find a story only tagged with incest when the reader is searching on mother, son.

Basically include it as chapter 1 or part of the index so it is encountered before getting into the story itself.

It should be before I open the story itself. So that puts it in the tags or the story description. If you have to open the story before you see it that gives the story an unjustified download count.

There's one story I was reading that was very good until I hit the untagged extreme torture scene in the middle of the story. What made it worse was it was totally unexpected with absolutely no warning. If the only warning I had was at the start of the chapter it would have been just as bad and just as annoying for having wasted my time reading to that point.

The tags are there to be used, authors are instructed to use them, so they should.

Basically include it as chapter 1 or part of the index so it is encountered before getting into the story itself.

It should be before I open the story itself. So that puts it in the tags or the story description. If you have to open the story before you see it that gives the story an unjustified download count.

In my case, my initial post on the subject (in this thread) clearly stated that, while I may not include specific tags if it only constituted a tiny portion of the story, I also specified I'd flag it early on, either in the description or in a note in the first chapter as well as the chapter where it exists. But I just don't think it's honest to tag the entire story with MM if it only occupies a small portion of a single chapter in a 100 chapter story.

However, in most of my cases, if it occupies a single chapter in a 20 chapter story, then yes, it would deserve a specific tag for it.

You do want to avoid squicks, but you also don't want to promise what you have NO intention of delivering. That's akin to including the 'WS' tag when the story only contains a single reference to a small boy relieving himself against a tree in the woods. That misuse deserves a 1-bomb, more than a short reference to a necessary encounter in the story which doesn't accurately reflect the true nature of the story.

That's not an exaggeration to emphasize your point, it's a blatant stupidity.

Try looking up "Reducto absurdum" in Wiki (spit, spit). My point was to emphasize how stupid the first argument was by taking the claim to it's extreme. The point wasn't that anyone should mis-code a story, but that coding exclusively for squicks is itself a form of false advertising for people actively searching for those stories. Thus the inclusion of those tags is often a double-edged sword, cutting the author from both directions while pleasing no one!

Keet, the problem is rather complex.

Story codes are basically used for 2 purposes: to warn readers of squicks and to define the content of the story, which is often thought of as attracting readers who have specific interests.

Too few codes can be bad and too many can be bad. As an author, it is hard to define a good balance for a specific story. Some authors say if the code's activity is present in a story to any extent, add the code. That is how a story ends up with many codes. Some authors say, code the main characteristics of the plot and activities and that is how the story can end up with too few codes. Some authors try to reach a balance between those two positions by considering the number of occurrences and overall effect those occurrences have on the plot. Some authors think they should warn the reader about everything a reader might consider a squick, while other authors only warn readers about what the author thinks is a squick.

No matter which way an author goes, someone is going to disagree with them. Without going into the details, many readers ignore the codes the author assigns to the story and ignore the warnings in the description and chapters, and then they complain about the content they find in the story.

an advise/guidelines section for authors. If all authors use the same guidelines

That is an awfully big IF. Most authors wouldn't read the guidelines. A good number of those who read the guidelines would disagree with certain suggestions and not follow them. Even if an author read the guidelines and tried to follow them, the decision to add or omit a specific tag in a story is often subjective.

We have had numerous discussions about adding tags in the Forum. If you review this thread, you will see that we don't all agree, so who would you get to write the guidelines.

What you say is a possibility and true. However, Keet talked about "an advise/guidelines section" and that could be written by anyone.

Laz created the codes and it is the authors that create the interpretations that seem to clash.

Just to clarify what is being discussed. We are not talking about the code definitions. We are talking about when a code should be included when posting a story.

We authors can't seem to agree on when a specific code should be added for specific scenes. The thoughts submitted by authors would as contradictory as the opinions expressed in the Forum during the past few days.

Basically the decision of whether a code should be included is subjective. Authors will do the same thing they currently do, which is add the code if they think it is needed.

A guideline might have a small influence on a few authors use of the codes assuming of course they bother to read the guidelines.

We authors can't seem to agree on when a specific code should be added for specific scenes.

Lazeez has provided clear guidelines on when to apply codes as well as what the codes mean at:

when to apply at:

https://storiesonline.net/author/posting_guidelines.php

which says:

Correct, Precise Codes:
Correct codes are extremely important. Most people use the codes to decide whether they want to read a story or not. The more precise your codes are the better your scores will be. If you put the wrong codes or you miss some codes or even put extra codes, you risk the chance of people retaliating by giving you low scores.

For example, if you put the romance code in your story's codes, while your story is a rape story, then you'll attract those people that are looking for romance and when they find the rape in there then they'll be shocked and the result is usually a vote of 1. And by not labeling the rape, you won't attract those interested in reading about a rape who would give your story a higher score. So it's all about attracting the right audience.

Precise coding is also important. Excessive coding is bad. If something is mentioned in the story but not described, then it shouldn't coded for. Anything that happens offscreen shouldn't be coded for. For example, if a woman gets raped, and the story doesn't contain the rape scene, only a mention that the woman was raped, then the story doesn't need the 'Rape' code. Use your judgement and try to see it from the readers point. If you see a code in the story what would it mean to you? Code accordingly.

............................

code meanings at:

https://storiesonline.net/docs/code_faq.php

............................

He even has a clear statement on the age issue at:

https://storiesonline.net/h/58/what-kind-of-stories-can-i-post

You can post almost anything. We have one restriction: Characters under 14 years old can't be sexual or sexualized. Characters under 14 can't masturbate, can't be described nude and can't participate in any explicitly described sexual manner.

If you must have those characters, then anything sexual to do with them must be described in a clinical manner. Think how they would do it on public television. So never in any sexualized manner or salacious descriptions.

In that vein, you can't have fictitious characters that are supposedly older and yet somehow behave or look like underage children. That will get you booted off the site.

.......................................

Hopefully the above will help clarify a lot of the author concerns expressed lately

If you must have those characters, then anything sexual to do with them must be described in a clinical manner. Think how they would do it on public television. So never in any sexualized manner or salacious descriptions.

That 'test' will produce considerably different results depending on whether we're discussion American public television, British television, or cable channels. There hasn't been a consistent 'broadcasting standard' for a very long time!

Lazeez has provided clear guidelines on when to apply codes as well as what the codes mean at

Nope! Those guidelines are far too generic. They are also mainly about the accuracy of the code matching the scene.

Authors deal with the specifics of scenes when determining if a code needs to be added. The accuracy of the code is important, but the number of similar scenes and the effect of those scene(s) have on the overall story also have to be taken under consideration.

If you have a 100K word story and one 300 word scene with three people having sex and the sex has little to nothing to do with the plot, does the story warrant the Group Sex tag? I'd say NO.

If you have a 25K word story with a dozen 300 word scenes with three people having sex, does the story warrant the Group Sex tag? I'd say YES.

The point where the number of sex scenes result in me switching my NO to Yes, is a subjective decision on my part. Each of us must make that decision for our stories. Lazeez guidelines do not provide guidance regarding that type of decision.

We also need to keep in mind that coding a story for every act and type of scene in a story is not the way to go, especially in a long story, for you would end up with too many codes.

As Lazeez said in those guidelines:

Use your judgement and try to see it from the readers point. If you see a code in the story what would it mean to you? Code accordingly.

Each of us judges a story differently and we don't agree in many instances.

or they don't know what to do

If the partners are in the dark, it could be grope sex.

Or the best of all, good groping, gooey group sex!

Some authors try to reach a balance between those two positions by considering the number of occurrences and overall effect those occurrences have on the plot. Some authors think they should warn the reader about everything a reader might consider a squick, while other authors only warn readers about what the author thinks is a squick.

One general rule of thumb, and supported by Lazeez, is that activity which isn't specifically shown in the story should not be tagged for. Thus the previous example of the guy describing the homosexual blowjob in the bathroom would NOT be tagged, because he simply mentions the blowjob, without describing the specific acts.

It's okay for characters to discuss squicks, but it's another to discuss the details as if it was a reader's main interest in the story. Just like with underaged sex, you can mention when someone has been exposed to something, but you can't play off the sexual interest behind it. Knowing the difference often lies in what to code for and what not to, as well as what can keep your story from being banned!

Once again, read the damn post a person is replying about and consider what the poster is replying to before shooting off your mouth. My post had nothing to do with what yours is saying.

I was initially under the impression that the tags should be included for every single reference to an activity, but webmaster corrected me on that point. I still view tags mostly as a warning, however, to weed out possible trolls wh might not care for my various taboo tales and their wide variety of socially censured activities. The key difference is that I now use the tags for only onscreen acts, not offscreen, too.

I now use the tags for only onscreen acts, not offscreen, too.

Which is how they are supposed to be used, but many writers don't realize that.

Lol, my former practice being a case in point.

Maybe good tags will get an author more readers but too many tags will certainly scare away some if what I read in some responses is correct.

I've always veered to under-using tags, rather than tagging absolutely everything that happens. There are times when you absolutely need to tag certain things, both because their central to the story, and also when they're not. And you're right, as an author, you need to consider your tags. I typically consider my tags the entire time I'm writing a story, and then again as I revise it, to ensure I tag whatever is necessary, and not tag anything that isn't.

A Mrs Waite worked in the accounting department. If employees needed answers concerning their paychecks, they were told to go to Helen Waite.

For a serialized story, the tags should be as complete as possible for the planned story. But state that tags might be added later if needed. Above all be honest with the readers and/or reviewers.

And don't be surprised if people don't start reading the story until after it's finished being posted, as they want to know all of the relevant tags before they start to read a story.

The quantity of said subject matter may be briefly mentioned or extremely graphic.

Your caution sounds great. I would make one change to the above so it read as follows:

There may be brief passages of content relating to story codes not listed and that brief content may be extremely graphic.

Your caution sounds great.

Glad you liked it. It was meant as tongue-in-cheek, but I think there may be a use for it somewhere down the line. Thanks for your recommended change.

CZ

Please, please. OK so it is accurate but negates the whole purpose of tags.

As I said, this was posted as a tongue-in-cheek comment. If I were to use it, it would be in addition to the normal tags just so nobody could say they were not warned of a one or two paragraph scene which, in my opinion, did not need to get tagged for. Anything more than a brief, non explicit scene will be tagged for.

And just to clarify, it was the 6 year old pig being boffed by the 92 year old giraffe. :/

Could be worse, his last name could be Swell instead of Swett.

It gets worse.

Guy I knew was named Richard Cox. So yes, he was Dick Cox.

And even worse - his dad was named Harold Long Cox.

This is NOT the same Harry Long Cox I knew, but ... yeah, what the HELL were his parents thinking. (And of course, he's a coach!)
http://www.nwitimes.com/sports/high-school/boys-basketball/where-are-they-now-harold-cox/article_a9d20fda-1821-5eb1-a430-75a7c0e65636.html

He asked the man if he was ever called Jack. The man said yes. So Abe Lincoln said, "So you're a Jack Cass." (jackass)

Abe was always quick with a turn of phrase, as well as a master of creating proverb-inspired anecdotes to illustrate points, which frequently caused complex discussions to grind to a halt as the various parties had to figure out WTH he was talking about.

It's not in the free Accounts

No, it's a premier feature. DS said premium members.

The tags aren't just about about efficiently describing the story, they are about accurately defining the audience you are writing for.

I would phrase it, helping the audience you are writing for to find your story, which is what I think you intended.

However, if I would have applied the 'Harem' tag, I'm certain readers searching for such stories would feel tricked as well.

Consider this faint praise, since my own tagging is far from perfect, but in my opinion your story doesn't read like a harem story so I think you made the right decision ;)

AJ

As an author all you can do is code the story as you see it. Readers may view the story differently. As long as you added the necessary codes and didn't add codes just to attract readers, you've done the best you can.

Or it's all sex.

There are only around 180 some tags in total. If you are using more than a quarter of them on anything less than an epic novel (200K + words) your story is probably a bit unfocused.

435,000 words, I used less than 30 tags.

https://storiesonline.net/s/13629

I suppose by a strict definition of the tags, there may be a few missing from my story, but to me as the author, those tags not used aren't relevant to the story. And since I was adding tags as needed as I wrote and posted it, I was very much aware of the content of each chapter.

There are only around 180 some tags in total. If you are using more than a quarter of them on anything less than an epic novel (200K + words) your story is probably a bit unfocused.

I've got a new story coming up, which is only 120,000 words, but it only has five tags, six at the most (I'll have to see whether there are any new tags when I finally go to post), so jumping to 40+ tags for only another 80,000 words sounds a bit extreme.

Well-written stories tend to stick to topics. Unfocused, rambling tales tend to bounce all around the place, mainly because the author really has no clue what points they're trying to make. And as has already been noted, many of the 'tag abusers' are writing 'to' the tags (i.e. writing chapters for the express purpose of adding additional tags, instead of trying to properly code the story as it stands).

Don't forget, you mostly write no or minimal sex stories. That cuts down a lot on the applicable tags for any given story.

Even when I was, that might add another 2 or 3 tags, not 30 or 40. I'll say it again, an abundance of tags is mostly a sign of an unfocused author who's merely fumbling, making it up as he goes, with no clear idea of where his story is going. Even with 50 or 100+ chapter stories, the better ones known where the story is going, rather than simply churning out new sex scenes hoping to keep the story going by revealing new ways to put tab A into slut B.

I will agree, that ~30 tags is is starting to push the limits even in very long stories, but it is not, in my opinion, necessarily impossible for a story over 200K words.

Okay, I think I see where you were going here, so I misunderstood what you said earlier.

If your story has any of these types of actions, activities or story features, IMHO, the tags should be used.

Let's say there's a scene where the woman uses her mouth on the guy before having sex. Maybe to get him hard. Maybe foreplay. That's the only oral sex in the story.

Should the author have the "oral sex" tag because of that? Someone looking for oral sex might be disappointed.

Or someone might get squicked by mouth to genital contact (God help them, but there are people like that). Oral sex for foreplay is still oral sex.

Two things Keet.

1. Do you believe that authors are aware of everything that might squick their readers?

2. Do you plan to add a code or warning for every possible squick that you identify? You are limited to 50 codes. Your readers will eventually become inured to your squick warnings in the chapters and skip over them.

Agree, but what I was trying to say is that you would not need to add a warning tag for 30 words in a +10,000 word story but give a warning at the top of the chapter. So the reader is warned but didn't skip the whole story. I have seen it before in stories, even a little warning in the description instead of of a tag.

The only issue with that is if the item is enough of a squick to the reader they'll skip the whole chapter, so you come to the situation can the story be told without that chapter, if it can the chapter isn't needed, anyway. If it can't the story becomes unreadable and the reader gives it a 1 and dumps it.

Anything that happens on-stage has to be coded, that's the basic rule of SoL as set out in the various instructions on it. Doing it any other way is just asking for trouble and backlash from readers you catch unawares.

Describe an actual rape, and it needs a code while just saying Miss Smith was raped doesn't require a code. Sometimes less is more in that regards, less description of the event is more readers.

typo edit

There are more than a few readers who would object to that approach.

Count me as one of them. When I get into a story and find the author has decided not to code one of my squicks I first contact them to let them know. Sometimes the author just missed it. I can deal with that. Sometimes the author tries to say that it's not a big deal, it's not a central part of the story or some other BS. That author hits my exclusion list.

That's part of why I almost always wait until stories are complete before reading them - authors frequently add codes as they go along. I also avoid stories where the author says in their synopsis that they are intentionally excluding codes that would apply.

Do I miss some good stories by doing this? Probably. Are there more stories out there? Yep. Each author will make their own choices but as a reader I have choices, too.