Forum: Story Discussion and Feedback

It's hilariously unwatchable listening to these kids rattle off specs to their "supercomputers" that wouldn't run a copy of Angry Birds today.

By far the most hilarious examples of this for me actually predates that by a little bit. Short Circuit 2 has to be a prime contender when "Johnny 5" starts rattling off some of his specifications after some recent upgrades.

IIRC, he(the sentient, self-aware robot) was rocking a 500 Megabyte Hard Drive. Which admittedly in 1988 would be considered incredibly huge. (note: It might have been 50 megs instead--still huge for 1988, but not astronomically so by then)

At least the first movie did a good job of avoiding specifics in regards to such things, but the sequel failed at that.

My first computer had a whopping 4K of RAM, with a 16K expansion disk, and used a casette tape drive. (A VIC-20). IIRC, the PC I had in 1998 had a 40MB HDD and 16MB of RAM, ran at 40MHz. The PC I'm typing this on today (Jan, 2018), has a 1 TB HDD, 16GB of RAM, and a quad core running at 1.5 GHz.

Your current PC matches my laptop which is getting long in the tooth for some of the games I want to play. ;)

My first computer was an Amiga 500 with a 52 megabyte SCSI hard drive. But I did spend plenty of time on a Commodore 64 prior to that. Being part of full color 32bit GUI computing in 1991 as a preteen was heady stuff.

Being 32bit from its onset as the Amiga 1000 around 1984(?). It could directly address up to 4 gigabytes of either ram or hard drives even then. Now physically attaching that much storage to it was another matter.

I know Intel must have been a happy camper when Jay Miner's patents started to expire almost 20 years ago. Northbridge acts a lot like how I understand "Gary" did on the Amiga chipsets in the 1980's. Too bad Commodore was being run by bankers who thought the best way to keep a tech company profitable was by cutting R&D.

A Plea for More Details - Details So Simple that Even I can Understand

I think a lot of authors are guilty of this. As near as I can figure, there are a couple of principal causes:
1. They don't know any more than you do and all their knowledge is from Wikipedia,
2. They do know more than you but are lousy teachers. It really takes talent to be a good teacher even when your knowledge of a topic is extensive.

I share your complaint also. Last month, I reviewed the story "Backscatter" by hammingbyrd7 where I noted that extensive knowledge of physics would have been helpful in reading the story. Since I was a business major in college, my physics background is basic at best. But a BS in the discipline would have come in handy when reading that story. At least to get its full impact.

Boiling down complex topics to a grade 8 (US) level (around 13-14 year olds) is the challenge for anyone writing science fiction. Even writing to the average level of a 17 year old high schooler would be welcome. Whether the topics is guns, ballistics or black holes.

My first computer was an Amiga 500 with a 52 megabyte SCSI hard drive.

My first computer was a TI 99/4A, and my second one was an Amiga 2000HD with a 40 megabyte SCSI hard drive. Less than a month later a friend of mine also purchased an Amiga 2000HD but his came with the 52 megabyte SCSI hard drive.

Try watching the 1995 movie, "Hackers." It's hilariously unwatchable listening to these kids rattle off specs to their "supercomputers" that wouldn't run a copy of Angry Birds today. The only thing watchable about that movie is a very young (19?) Angelina Jolie showing her tits.

Hackers was hilariously unwatchable in 1995. Machine specs aside, all of the jargon is basically nonsense. A lot of it was just made up by the scriptwriters, and even the bits that weren't were misused.

To be fair, this is almost universally true of any Hollywood production that deals with computers, and most of them don't have Angelina Jolie's tits in them.

Crime fiction novelist Ed McBaine never put a date in his books and tried never to make a reference that would date the book. His first 87th Precinct book was written in 1956 and is still available [...]

But nowadays they are all dated. No DNA tests, no cell phones, no iPods, no laptops, tablets... But there were coil tape recorders, cassette recorders, VHS tapes, Polaroid photos, type writers...
Even simple things like fountain pens mostly gone. Smoking in offices or restaurants?
You probably can't determine the year or – if the author was successful in avoiding dateable references – the decade, but it's still obviously dated, the usage of the language even is dated.

HM.

Hey! Many of us still insist on using fountain pens. I despise ball-points! However, every year it gets harder and harder to find fountain pens for sale.

If you truly desire the smooth, flowing feel of fountain pen writing, you're luck. Thanks to hordes of sketch artists and journal addicts, fountain pens and permanently light-fast, waterproof ink are readily available in a range of prices from "that's great!" to "holy shit!" on Amazon.

I recently bought a Pilot "Metropolitan" fountain pen for about $12 that refills with an adapter without needing those pesky cartridges; and legend has it that an ink magician in New York hand-mixes barrels of the world's finest ink: Noodlers Black Ink. It comes in many other colors. Among the artist community, this ink is legendary for ink and wash sketches. Most of the journal crowd seems to go into deep-breathing mode over Lamy fountain pens and Moleskin bound notebooks.

So there you have it. Google and Amazon are your friend; once you've done a quick search, you'll get daily emails for the next decade reminding you that all that good stuff and more is only a click away!

(Myself, I find the Pilot Precise V5 roller pen to be sheer magic. Those Pilot folks, Japanese all, seem to be really 'gung-ho' about quality writing gear.)

Is a pen that uses a cartridge still a "fountain pen"? I thought to be a fountain pen, you had to refill it by sticking its nose in a fountain and let it drink, using a little pump on the side of the pen.

You must be thinking of a squirt gun. Don't use permanent ink.

Is a pen that uses a cartridge still a "fountain pen"?

Yes, even if it uses a disposable ink cartridge, if the tip is a nib rather than a roller ball, the stationary industry still calls it a fountain pen.

A fountain pen is a nib pen that, unlike its predecessor, the dip pen, contains an internal reservoir of liquid ink. The pen draws ink from the reservoir through a feed to the nib and deposits it on paper via a combination of gravity and capillary action. Filling the reservoir with ink may be achieved manually, via the use of a Pasteur pipette (eyedropper) or syringe, or via an internal filling mechanism which creates suction (for example, through a piston mechanism) to transfer ink directly through the nib into the reservoir. Some pens employ removable reservoirs in the form of pre-filled ink cartridges.[1]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fountain_pen

Crime fiction novelist Ed McBaine never put a date in his books and tried never to make a reference that would date the book. His first 87th Precinct book was written in 1956 and is still available on Kindle and Audible.

Chandler did not date his novels, but the decade if not the year is quite clear in his pre-WWII works. Like the Sherlock Holmes stories, however, the details of the world he describes are as interesting as the plots, even if both sets of works are, literally, dated.

I'm reading Jennifer Egan's Manhattan Beach, set in NYC in 1940s wartime. It's engaging, but I get a sense of namechecking in her effort to place the story in historically accurate locations with historically accurate cultural references (music, etc.). Minor issues, fair enough, but still there.

bb

Chandler did not date his novels, but the decade if not the year is quite clear in his pre-WWII works. Like the Sherlock Holmes stories, however, the details of the world he describes are as interesting as the plots, even if both sets of works are, literally, dated.

Correct. The details of another time or place are a big part of what makes those stories interesting to readers who have the experience, intelligence and/or curiosity to figure out what the writer is writing about.

As time passes, education declines, and exposure to reality decreases, more and more readers are of the type who wonder why Paul Revere didn't use his cell phone to warn folks that the British are coming.

Unfortunately for those who are trying to write for younger people, it's a hopeless task, because those readers increasingly have no connection or experience with present reality, and no clue at all about anything that may have happened in the past.

Are you planning on kicking the can, because computers almost never last longer than five years? Their life span simply isn't very long.

I have servers that have been up for more than five years.

My understanding is that servers have a shorter lifespan than desktop computers, because they tend to be doing more work for more periods of time (that is, lots of processing for 24/7) than the ridiculously light loads we put on desktop computers and the relatively few hours we use them.

Your understanding is wrong.

For the CPU and the circuit board, the majority of the wear is in the startup process.

The only part of a computer that experiences significant operational wear is the hard drives, and that's what RAID arrays and network storage devices are for.

With the larger raid arrays used for big server centers, they can even swap out individual physical drives that have failed without shutting down the system.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RAID

For the CPU and the circuit board, the majority of the wear is in the startup process.

My experience is to run the PC 24/7 and it lasts at least twice as long as a PC powered up and shut down daily.

I designed and programmed custom-built software for integrating machines and update order data. The computers we used were standard systems in the price range of 1800 to 2500 DM (~ 900–1250 $). I insisted the systems were never shut down and they were often used up to ten years in dusty or damp factory floor environments. Despite of claims by drive manufacturers we always used horizontally not vertically installed drives.

The drive of a twelve year old system died on me when I visited the customer to upgrade his systems from 10 Mbit Coax Ethernet to Gigabit Ethernet. To change the network card I had to lay the box on its side. After completition of the update I could hear the drive didn't run as smoothly as before and in less than an hour I had a drive failure. :(

Just to repeat it: we always used standard components not high-end server hardware.

HM.
(Typo edited)

Doesn't getting 'out of memory' messages for applications and web pages that normally load without problems count as a break?

Not if the reason that message appears is because there was a software problem somewhere that makes the OS think the memory is full.

It counts if there is a physical problem with the memory.

The execution of software programs has little to no affect on the hardware other than the fact heat and possibly vibration is generated. Inadequate cooling leads to damage due to overheating. Inadequate shock mounting leads to mechanical damage to electronic components. A server and desktop computer operating the same number of hours have similar probability of failure

Except the server is probably mounted somewhere out of the way, that doesn't see much foot traffic, and in more commercial/professional settings, probably has further isolation in place to even minimize that. Going further, in the commercial/professional settings, those servers are more likely to be in climate controlled rooms that are well regulated. Sometimes even better than the offices most people work in, or the homes they live in. (although admittedly, there is a "shove it in a (un-ventilated) closet" club as well)

In other words, the server isn't likely to be "bumped into" or "jostled around" for random reasons. Now compare that to a desktop in most environments.

Now also add to this that the desktop is likely to have the user nearby, so that adds "human dander" to the list of things it may be getting exposed to in quantity over time. If the desktop is used at home, animal dander also potentially adds itself to the list.

This also ignores the tendency of people to also eat and drink at their computer and the consequences that can sometimes have. Servers aren't likely to be on the receiving end of a Hot Coffee or Soda spill, desktop computers on the other hand? (Although notably, usually it is the keyboard and mouse that typically suffers, not the Computer itself.)

Isn't "the cloud" just an off-site server?

Isn't "the cloud" just an off-site server?

Yes and no. Initially it was.

Anymore, it generally denotes a "Virtual server"/"Virtual (storage) Space" that may not have any real meaningful association with any particular piece of hardware. So it's existence is rather ephemeral, kind of like trying to keep track of a particular molecule of water in an actual cloud.

Are you planning on kicking the can, because computers almost never last longer than five years? Their life span simply isn't very long.

My dad still regularly uses a system I built for myself back in 2003(he obtained it a few years later). It isn't the system he uses for most things these days, but for a certain range of tasks it remains his "go to" computer.

Are you planning on kicking the can, because computers almost never last longer than five years? Their life span simply isn't very long.

I once was neighbors to a back-country rancher who lawyered for a living (to support the ranch). He was told by a BLM 'grazing expert' that cattle would refuse to graze hillsides beyond a 45-degree slope.

"For God's sake, don't say that too loud," Jim protested. "My cows will hear you and come rolling down the mountain!"

Part of his ranch comprised creek drainages that ran through steep, narrow canyons. Centuries of wildlife had terraced the slopes from top to bottom with game trails. Savvy Idaho cattle had learned to stand on the terrace, reach up to the tall bunch grass, and grow fat in comfort.

That said, I'll not repeat your claim out loud, lest the Compaq S4000T Pentium 4, multi-threaded CPU should catch the bad vibes of what you said, and expire. It runs my Linux installation. The latest version of Debian, updated again just today. Just sayin...

Hell, my Mac Mini, Intel Core 2 Duo, 2 GHz, single processor @ 667 MHz, core 2, with 4 GB RAM will soon be old enough to enroll in college!

Are you planning on kicking the can, because computers almost never last longer than five years? Their life span simply isn't very long.

The computer I'm typing this on, a Gateway DX-4200-09, was manufactured in 2008. It came with Windows Vista Home.

It's currently running Windows 10 Professional x64 1709 with no problems. I'll admit, when Windows 10 was first released, it took 16 minutes realtime to go from my pressing the power button to the login screen, but the updates to Windows 10 have cut that down to about a minute; yes, I'm actually someone who is in better shape as a result of the various updates Microsoft has released to the Windows 10 OS.

I was very pleasantly surprised to find that it came with an HDMI port when I finally upgraded from a CRT, about two/three years ago.

I've had to replace the OS drive twice. I recently upgraded to a dedicated video card from its integrated graphics, because I wanted to be able to use it with two monitors; thus a video card with two HDMI ports was required. I also maxed out its memory. I did have to replace the original power supply when it died, and with the new video card I had to replace that one, which is still in fine condition, with a higher output unit. I did remove the fax modem when I installed the new video card; I haven't had a land line in seven years.

While I have had a couple of computers outright die on me, most have lasted a very long time; my last Windows 98SE machine gave up the ghost a couple of years ago, which makes me very happy that Good Old Games [GOG] has a number of my favorite games updated to run within Windows 10.

This just goes to show how little real change has occured in the last ten years in PC technology.

Yes, we now have SSDs and related forms of data storage with no moving parts, but SATA II hard drives are still readily available; SSDs are still too expensive to use for mass storage. There are a number of specialized interfaces which have come and gone in the intervening years, but USB 2.0 is still the dominant interface.

A modern day ship of Theseus: if you replace all the parts of a computer with new ones, is it still the same computer?

Change enough things, and the Windows OS will ask you to get a new license; the hardware profile is far enough from the original that it assumes a new machine.

Well, if the replacements are upgrades, rather than matches to the replaced part. A sufficient number of add-on cards will do the trick.

I've had that happen a couple of times.

Microsoft was surprisingly cooperative when I argued that it was still the same computer, since it was the same motherboard and case, and issued me a new license gratis.

It is hard to argue, after a bit, that a frankencomputer is the same as the original. I'll support the argument so long as it has the same motherboard and case.

I don't think I've ever had a PC that lasted less than 10 years. A few I replaced at around the 8 years mark because I needed something specific, but I still used the old computer as a secondary system.

If your computers are burning out in under 5 years either you're seriously overclocking them or buying some seriously cheap-ass parts.

It's not so much a fine line, but a line which is different for every single reader! Some readers need to be led by the nose, told every detail in 5th grade English, while others quickly bore of detailed descriptions and want to get into the nitty-gritty details.

Which isn't to mention when the adds detail "beyond their own depth of knowledge" (and the ones checking their work) and start demonstrating just how "horrifically broken" their fantasy world would be if taken to their logical conclusions.

That's all well and good when you're portraying a "broken" setting in the first place, but when those details start nullifying your own premise....

detail

The tale is more important than de tail. As long as interesting things are happening, we don't care what color the grass is. Or the sheets on the bed. Or if there is any bedding at all.

The tale is more important than de tail.

What if the tale is about chasing tail? :)

Some writers refer to benjamins - pretty common and if you have ever ben to the USA you would know automatically

Simply not true. I've been to the U.S. and, until this exchange, I've never heard of a Benjamin, unless you're talking about the dog named Benji

Simply not true. I've been to the U.S. and, until this exchange, I've never heard of a Benjamin, unless you're talking about the dog named Benji

All US Currency notes have a portrait of a historical figure on them.

The $1 (Washington), $2 (Jefferson), $5 (Lincoln), $20 (Andrew Jackson) and $50 (Ulysses S. Grant) are former presidents. This has lead to dead presidents as a slang term for money in the US.

The $10 bill has the first secretary of the Treasury, Alexander Hamilton.

The $100 bill is Benjamin Franklin.

Benjamins would be slang for $100 bills.

Anyone familiar with US currency should be able to figure that out given enough context.

This is especially true for those who've never seen a US currency bill of any sort.

That's quite true, but the comment under discussion was about people who've visited the US being able to figure out the reference.

I rather think it would be difficult for a foreigner to make a trip to the US without having any exposure to US currency.

I rather think it would be difficult for a foreigner to make a trip to the US without having any exposure to US currency.

With credit cards, it is exceptionally easy to never touch any currency while in a foreign nation. Including the United States.

I've lived in the USA all my life, and the only reason I've actually handled $100.00 bills was that when I received my student financial aid checks, I had to take them to the registrar to pay my fees, and the change was always cash. You can believe I was healthily paranoid on my way to the bank to deposit the money that was to see me through the term!

That was back in 1980-82; I suspect they've changed their procedures now, and that electronic transfers are involved, rather than physical checks and physical currency.

I will admit that I always thought that a smart crook, ready to leave town as soon as they were done, would lay in wait between campus and the nearest lowest-minimum-balance-required banks on the days financial aid was disbursed, and clean up. It seemed like an obvious opportunity to me.

Whenever I was travelling, and had the potential need of sums of money, I purchased traveler's checks.

Even if you used $100 bills, did you call them "Benjamins?"

Even if you used $100 bills, did you call them "Benjamins?"

Nope. Never came across the term until a year or so ago, in a story. Probably on this site.

I rather think it would be difficult for a foreigner to make a trip to the US without having any exposure to US currency.

I don't think I have ever looked to see whose likeness is rendered; it's the big number which is important

So, in useful terms, one Benjamin is worth about 25 quarter-pounders with cheese?

So, in useful terms, one Benjamin is worth about 25 quarter-pounders with cheese?

Yep.

. I've been to the U.S. and, until this exchange, I've never heard of a Benjamin,

I have seen them mentioned in the context of a tip or bribe in many stories on SOL. I knew that value but I have also read a few others in a similar context without knowing the loot amount

Like you, I've never heard the term used in the States, but it is frequently used in movies, which is why foreigners are more familiar with this 'Americanism' than Americans are. :( (Hint: It's typically used to describe hip gangsters.)

It also is a movie title in at least once case. It's all about the Benjamin's after all.

Regarding computers, I trump you all - First computer I used was a PDP8 with no hard disc and you programmed it with paper tape! Great for flashing lights on the front though.

Got me beat. First physical computer I ever dealt with was a PDP 11/03, which my high school had in the Science Lab. No hard drive, two 8" floppy drives; I successfully wiped the system disc one day, thankfully it was only a copy, the master was kept under lock and key as a precaution.

I did use card decks during the short period of time I was a Computer Science Major, my first pass through College, 1980-1982.

My first was a trash-80 model I - Level 1. 4k TOTAL memory, cassette tape storage, 3 error messages. no HD, no rs-232. All add-ons required upgrading to Level II (16k RAM!) and the purchase of the 'expansion interface' which cost as much as the 'main' computer.

The first computer I ever used (first week in July 1983) was either a trash 80 model III or a Brazilian clone of that computer (CP-500)

Regarding computers, I trump you all - First computer I used was a PDP8 with no hard disc and you programmed it with paper tape!

The first computer I used – and programmed – was an HP 9815 S, no hard disk or floppy disk, but with an tape cassette drive to store programs and data. It's programming language looked a bit like BASIC and all available keywords were accessed by one key stroke and it was specific to this model, the bigger 9825 and 9835 used a quite different language. (I don't know if the 9825 and 9835 used different programming languages, I have only used a 9825 some years later and it's programming language was really different from the 9815).

The 9815 was the central part of a weighing system in our dyehouse, all our recipes were stored on those tape cassettes, the programes on one track and the recipe data on the second track. This was about 1976 and I can't remember how many recipes were stored per cassette.
The 9815 controlled three electronical scales with RS232 interface and three card readers. The 9815 had a small thermoprinter. To print a protocol it sent the ASCII text via RS232 to a KIM microcomputer which translated it into code sent to a US-teletype. (The european postal teletype services used a quite different code with only lowercase characters).

The next computer I used was a HP 1000 E series with a real-time OS (RTE-IV).

HM.

Regarding computers, I trump you all - First computer I used was a PDP8 with no hard disc and you programmed it with paper tape! Great for flashing lights on the front though.

My Dad could probably come close to matching you. His introduction to computer programming happened in 1965. But as such, much of that stuff was "before my time."

Y'all are ooooooooooold.

I guess.

I'm only 57, being born in December of 1960.

The world has changed considerably in my lifetime.

Add to that that all my grandparents were born before 1900, my parents in 1925, and we talked about things; some, not as much as I now wish I had.

The Interstate Highway System was under construction for much of my youth. There is no way anyone born after it's substantial completion can comprehend just how much it changed our society.

The Interstate Highway System was under construction for much of my youth. There is no way anyone born after it's substantial completion can comprehend just how much it changed our society.

I couldn't agree more. I remember when I-94 was being built through Detroit when I was a kid. They used to move entire houses (at least some of them) out of the way and relocate them rather than demolish them. I remember watching whole houses making their way down the street I was raised on. We'd snag rides on them.

As to how much it changed society, the suburbs would have happened a lot slower if the highway system wasn't there. As well as commerce. Although Eisenhower pushed it for military purposes (the military couldn't easily move troops and equipment around during WWII), commerce took it over rapidly. Then people in general. All in the space of less than two generations.

a slide rule (I still cannot understand how they work)

Its analog, uses logarithmic approach with length of the slides letting the user do a number of mathematical calculations. I don't know if I kept mine, I had it in June, 2016 before I moved, but haven't calculated anything with it since Physics in College circa 1964. If you remember how it works it is faster than any digital calculator because you don't have to enter any digits before the machine processes them. Well, it might be a tie for 2 + 2. The machine may be lightning fast but my fingers don't enter numbers as fast as the slide rule slides. Sometimes the slide rule doesn't give as many digits of accuracy, but if you are using data you observed by eye or hand, it may not be accurate to 27 places anyhow.

Most of us carried our slide rules in cases that fastened to our belts. Sort of like gun slingers, draw and calculate faster than the next guy. I don't remember ever seeing a female slide ruler.

Most of us carried our slide rules in cases that fastened to our belts. Sort of like gun slingers, draw and calculate faster than the next guy.

Mine is still in my desk (though I do have a couple of electronic calculators) but I also have and sometimes use
a soroban.

WTF? After WWII when the USA ruled Japan there was a timing contest between a US servicemen using the latest in American mathematical equipment and a Japanese using a soroban. Many different calculations and until the last they were equal but the Japanese won the final one.
The neighbour who taught me was on TV with some of her pupils and ex pupils all with sums involving five figure numbers. First were primary school children (under 11 years old) using sorobans and answering almost instantly. The next lot (secondary school - over 11 years) did not have sorobans any longer but you saw their fingers moving and they were answering within a few seconds. They were certainly faster than I can operate an electronic calculator.
The crazy thing is that the teacher was not paid but got sacked because the school decided to discontinue the one period (? under an hour) a week to teach

Hoo boy, it's been nigh on to sixty years! I still have my prize Japanese-manufactured plastic-covered bamboo slide rule that got me through Navy electronics (and the complexities of thermionic valve circuitry). That's 'vacuum tube' radio & radar gear.

The two most valuable mental habits learned from slide rule practice was to think in terms of 'significant digits', and to keep track of the decimal point using exponents, powers of ten. Thus 324,567,980 would become 3.25 x 10[8] etc. Few had eyes sharp enough to read four or more digits from the hairline. Anyway, using this simplification one could instantly glance at the significant digits and do an estimate of the result. In a field where anywhere from five to twenty percent 'accuracy' was accepted (component tolerances, power levels, etc) the slide rule was 'good enough.' It was also generally accepted that an accumulation of small errors up or down tended to cancel out in the final result.

Good mental habits led to 'reasonable' thinking; one wonders if the digital universe is so user-friendly. I still prefer an analog display: a mere glance yields situational awareness. The red needle high on the temperature scale needs no interpretation that you're in deep doo-doo. A digital display requires a mental comparison before awareness sets in. Slow. Of course we then tossed both of those out and went for a blinking light and a 'check engine' message. Idiocy!

The two most valuable mental habits learned from slide rule practice was to think in terms of 'significant digits', and to keep track of the decimal point using exponents, powers of ten.

I have come across too many people who couldn't understand or work out such basic concepts. Must be a brain anomoly

Something like that is usually a business decision based on the overhead costs of supporting the class versus the return on investment (i.e., class fees paid by students).

This was a state school; parents might pay for uniforms, lunches, outings etc. but all teaching, occupation of premises, cleaning, heating, light etc. is free.
The teacher is Japanese, a mathematician by qualification with fluent English (and I guess Spanish and Esperanto), legally resident and working in the UK, who teaches soroban and anzan all over the place including Cuba, Germany, Japan that I know of. Two books published that I know of.

I have no idea why her classes were stopped but it occurred shortly after some of her pupils appeared on Blue Peter (a semi-serious format UK childrens TV programme)

sejintenej:

but all teaching, occupation of premises, cleaning, heating, light etc. is free.

REP:

Not True.

The teacher may not receive a salary, but the school incurs administrative, insurance, and other costs relating to the teacher being on the premises. People using the premises cause wear and tear that results in maintenance costs. Cleaning, heat, lights, etc is paid for by someone. The owners of the school are the ones footing these bills. These things and others all contribute to the school's (i.e., owners') overhead costs.

The school's overhead costs probably exceeded the fees charged for the course, and that is why the teacher got sacked.

REP, didn't you realize sejintenej is talking about a school in GB not in the USA? And of a state school not one of those private schools there. There are no fees for courses and AFAIK the taxpayer pays all bills. I doubt the school has to pay any insurances. The state – same as in Germany – doesn't pay any insurance, if something happens and you claim damages the state will eventually pay you but you better get a lawyer involved.

As for the costs: most costs are the same regardless if a classroom is used for an additional hour or not. Breaking down e.g. the cleaning costs on an hourly usage rate of the classroom is simply stupid. They are the same for any given classroom regardless if it's used four, five or 6 hours a day. Same for heating: if the room is unused for an hour between two classes you can't reduce the heating significantly for this hour and nobody will even attempt it.

HM.
(edited typo)

It does not matter where the school is located or who is running it. Schools incur bills and someone (e.g., the private owners or the government that represents the taxpayer) pays those bills.

You had written:

Something like that is usually a business decision based on the overhead costs of supporting the class versus the return on investment (i.e., class fees paid by students

Yes, the government and local authority pay for the building, heating light etc. and national taxes and local rates do not take into account whether a family has one or ten children in school. In state schools pupils do not pay the school for their compulsory education in primary and secondary schools or (?some) sixth form colleges. (We do have private aka public schools where usually*** parents do pay but those are not state schools - confused?).

In state schools often pupils can take part in activities which are not part of the compulsory curriculum (ie skiing, language trips abroad) and for those parents do pay.

*** There is a famous hospital which is a public (ie not state owned) school whose present uniform is almost unchanged since 1553 of which about 5% of pupils have their parents paying the full cost and from memory about 35% of parents pay nothing.

In this case the school had allowed this teacher to teach the soroban during a normal educational period - I don't think primary schools have "Home Room" and for much older pupils the system is different

PotomacBob; is that enough detail for you? :D

Can't you read that YOU suggested that the students pay for the lessons?

The bottom line sejintenej is the presentation of such a course costs money. The school undoubtedly had many courses worth presenting with some necessary and the budget provided by the government wasn't adequate to fund all of the courses

What was the cost of the soroban course? The pupils HAD to be in class and HAD to be learning something. The school was open so there was no extra for lighting, heating etc (and she supplied the sorobans)because they were not switched off if the room was empty. All she did was to allow another teacher to help in another class or even have a cup of tea.

All the courses are set by the state and must be taught - there are no optional ones or the time for them. The question of funding is irrelevant - they MUST teach all those subjects even if they stand in a muddy field in the snow.

The fact that a very highly qualified mathematician was prepared to come in unpaid and supply, free of charge the necessary equipment** was the gravy for them.

** OK so far as I can make out these were supplied by the Japanese government or The Association of Teachers of Mathematics.

You are now saying all courses are mandatory and none are optional and all courses must be taught. How can it be both ways?

Mathematics is mandatory and at primary school level that includes addition, subtraction, multiplication and division which is all that the soraban is used for. (As I wrote, after using it and at a more advanced level like the 11 year olds it becomes unnecessary to have one physically). There are various ways of teaching these parts of mathematics so it would appear that the school has gone back to the classic ways.

The method is as chosen by the school; when my daughter started school she was taught using a system developed for mentally handicapped children which turned out to be extremely quick and effective - it is the results which are judged. (BTW - she has two masters degrees and several other professional diplomas).

As for soroban being cost effective, if the gogglebox saw fit to feature her pupils after one session a week then IMHO it was effective.

Britain does have schools where conditions are like those you suggest occur in America but there are those, including this one which are good. Going back in time when I was there we had three levels of exams - General Certificate, Advanced level and Scholarship level above that. A survey suggested that Advanced level exams were at the same level as the US Ivy League universities after 18 months. However we only studied three or four subjects to that level. I don't know about now.

Who runs the school? The UK authorities of course. I understand that use of the soroban is fairly common in schools in Japan and she teaches it all over the world with their backing.

I'll say it again in a slightly different way. I do not believe the soroban class was a mandatory class. Government run schools usually have a small budget. Presenting the soroban class cost the school money.

Teaching mathematics is mandatory. Using a soroban is one method of teaching mathematics.

Just see
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i-Ok0RCYzW8
from 5.41.
This what Kimie was teaching an entire class of ordinary kids under 11 years of age. Worth it?

I wrote:

Breaking down e.g. the cleaning costs on an hourly usage rate of the classroom is simply stupid.

Your answer:

That is Basic Economics HM - all businesses are operated on the basis of their income stream exceeding their operating costs.

First: at least in Germany state schools still use cameralistics, not business-like accounting.

Second: even in a business, only marginal cost are relevant to such a decision! If the total costs – e.g. for cleaning the room – do not change wether the course is held or not you can't save any money for cleaning by cancelling the course. That's probably not Basic but Advanced Economics REP. Most overheads don't change at all if you cancel a course with one hour per week.

HM.

@helmut_meukel

even in a business, only marginal cost are relevant to such a decision!

If a business were to only consider the maginal costs in making decisions, they would soon be out of business.

It's a bit more complex than that.

There are three types of costs to consider.

Marginal costs: costs directly attributable to the production of x widgets. What it would cost you to produce x more widgets or what you would save by producing x fewer widgets.

Overhead costs: Expenses that must be paid in order to do business at all, but do not directly vary with the level of output.

Then there are sunk costs, these are money already spend that can not be recovered. These are mostly but not always capital expenditures.

Overhead costs do need to be considered, because while they don't directly vary with production, they can be increased or decreased with changes in production.

If you are increasing production, beyond a certain point, you will need a larger plant, this means more rent, more lighting, more heating. The reverse is also true, if cutting back production. at some point, you will be able to move to a smaller facility reducing overhead costs.

Another overhead cost that can vary step wise with production is sales and marketing expenses.

It's sunk costs that you are supposed to ignore.

I was not trying to compare a business like a school to a manufacturing type of business.

The same principle applies to service providers, like a school, where the widgets produced are customers served (or for a school students educated).

for a school students educated

I agree with your statements. But at least in the United States schools can't claim the students are "educated". Mostly they attended classes and did some or most of the work assigned, or at least kept relatively quiet while the teacher was lecturing, or doing what ever he or she did. They got the right credits for the right classes, including physical education which differs from real education, most of the time. They regurgitated enough of the right facts on paper when tested to pass, or maybe the school teachers and administration just wanted them to keep attending since states pay school districts based on attendance. Often once the test is over they forget everything they were exposed to. I may be a little pessimistic, but universities need to have remedial classes to teach high school graduates things they were supposed to learn in school. And graduate schools also have this kind of problem. Attending classes unfortunately doesn't mean the people who went to class were educated.

Overhead costs do need to be considered, because while they don't directly vary with production, they can be increased or decreased with changes in production.

Absolutely true. In the case discussed – 1 hour less course time per week due to cancellation of this one course – you can and should ignore overhead costs too.

HM.
(edited typo)

Sextant

Sounds like a story on SOL, sex tant. Isn't the tant the space between the anus and the vagina?

Sounds like a story on SOL, sex tant. Isn't the tant the space between the anus and the vagina?

Let me guess, six is also your favourite number in German?

Sixty-Six in German almost beats sixty-nine in English!

Well, 66 spoken in German probably sounds a LOT more interesting to an English speaker than 69 would(when spoken in German).

Edit for the lazy: After, what kind of adventurous English-speaking person wouldn't investigate what this "sechs-und-sechzig" might be?

sixty-nine

With 77 you get ate more than with 69.

Yes, but do you have any clue how to use a Sextant?

Actually, yes, and the quartz wrist watch is a chronometer that Capt. Hornblower would have given his other leg to have. Accurate to a second or two a day. And a hand-held scientific calculator makes calculating a sight damned easy. The hard part now is not wobbling too much while taking the sight, and then having a pad of forms to fill out while punching calculator keys.

I bet the six foot slide rule gave better number of digits than your pocket 5 inch rule.

When I was in high school, my math teacher was talking about multiplying by adding two numbers logarithmic value. He was using a 6-foot slide rule as a demonstration tool. :)

I had completely forgotten until now.

There was a humongous slide rule hanging on the wall of the science lab when I was in High School (1975-1979).

I don't think I ever saw it in use, they had a couple of HP RPN programmable calculators in security cases tethered to a power outlet that they used instead (HP25/25c/29c; not sure which of these they were).

I'm just a couple of years too young to have been taught how to use a slide rule; electronic calculators had become sufficiently common that slide rules were a thing of the past.

I did own one; my father got one for my sister and I, but didn't actually sit down and teach us how to use them, which, looking back on it, seems odd to me.

I even picked up a circular slide rule at a rummage sale one time, because it looked really keen, but still never actually learned how to use it.

"SHAG"

The landlord has adjusted their title.

Sustainable Housing for Ageless Generations: SHAG

Sustainable Housing for Ageless Generations
https://www.housing4seniors.com
At a SHAG Senior Living Community, you'll find that an active, enjoyable and sustainable lifestyle is well within your reach. With apartments in the Seattle ...
‎Communities · ‎Qualifications · ‎Life at SHAG · ‎Working At Shag"

?? @PotomacBob ??

The text you quoted is from my posting over 5 years ago.

HM.

Special thanks to necromancer "Grinning Dick" who revived this thread by answering to his own five year old posting.

Guns are "illegal" in Chicago, or Washington DC, but easily accessible in nearby Wisconsin or Virginia.

Interstate retail sales of guns, particularly handguns is heavily restricted under Federal law.

FFL* or private seller, a handgun can't simply be handed over to a buyer who is not a resident of the same state as the seller.

Again, FFL or private seller, what has to happen with an interstate sale of a handgun is that the gun has to be shipped to an FFL in the buyer's home state. That FFL in the buyer's home state will verify that the sale is legal in that state and process the required background check.

If the original seller is an FFL, that's two background checks for one gun sale.

This idea that criminals in Chicago can go to Wisconsin or Indiana and legally buy handguns is a myth.

Even if a long gun is involved, for interstate retail sales, federal law still requires that the gun has to be legal under state law in both the seller's and the buyer's state.

*FFL = Fedderal Firearms License (in context, a licensed gun dealer)

a handgun can't simply be handed over to a buyer who is not a resident of the same state as the seller.

how is this verified? AFAIK there is no official "national identity card" in the United States.

This idea that criminals in Chicago can go to Wisconsin or Indiana and legally buy handguns is a myth.

Can't a criminal active in Chicago just become a resident in Wisconsin or Indiana? Or use a criminal intermediary to get at handguns bought legally in those states?
That's illegal, but would it bother a criminal?

A law abiding citizen will have problems getting a handgun,
but criminals are by definition not law abiding.

HM.

how is this verified? AFAIK there is no official "national identity card" in the United States.

It's up to the seller to verify, with significant criminal penalties if they get it wrong.

Can't a criminal active in Chicago just become a resident in Wisconsin or Indiana?

Not as easily as you seem to think. They would actually have to move to Wisconsin or Indiana, a significant expense.

A law abiding citizen will have problems getting a handgun,

but criminals are by definition not law abiding.

It isn't just the buyer that has to be not law abiding, the seller also has to be not law abiding. Once you add in illegal black market gun sales, there is no need for Chicago criminals to go to Wisconsin or Indiana, they can buy a gun on the black market in Chicago just as easily.

clearly there is no lower limit

I disagree. IQ at 100 is "average". There has to be an IQ number, perhaps zero, that indicates a lower limit to being an intelligent human. Or if you are in a comma, or on terminal life support, or otherwise unable to communicate what you are thinking, that would be a lower limit to human intelligence.

comma

'Coma' refers to an unconscious state, while, 'comma' is a punctuation mark that signifies the end of a sentence.

'Coma' refers to an unconscious state, while, 'comma' is a punctuation mark that signifies the end of a sentence.

So that is three sentences, two delimited by commas and one delimited by a full stop ;-)

AJ