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Sex Scenes in Stories

Ernest Bywater

I'm starting this thread in the hopes the discussion on this topic in another thread will drift here instead. The following are my thoughts on the subject. But before I get started I'm discussing stories where the sex scenes are not the centre of the story the way they are in most stroke stories, and similar type stories where the core of plot is the sex or the purpose of the story is the sex scenes.

For most fiction stories every scene included in the story is supposed to present or advance one or more of the following:

1. Plot or sub-plot,

2. Character or character aspect or character development.

If the scene doesn't fulfil one of those needs in then becomes a gratuitous scene which can be easily skipped over or removed.

Sex can be used in a scene to fulfil a number of those aspects, with the most common being to show something about one of the characters.

If the aim of a scene involving sex is to show something in the post sex activities or discussion, then there is no need to provide a graphic description of the sex activities that's not directly relevant to the post sex discussion etc. the author can easily do a cut to black type description and then move onto what they want the scene to provide after the sex.

The problem with sex scenes in a lot of stories at SoL, but not all of them, is some authors stick in gratuitous sex scenes because they feel they have to have sex scenes to post a story at Sol. Thus they look for creative ways to include a sex scenes in the story to try and make it fit better.

SoL is a story site that accepts sex stories, and there is no need to have sex in the story, nor should there be sex in a story if it doesn't fit any of the needs of moving the story along, unless it's a stroke type story - in which case it still fits the need of moving the story along.

REP
Updated:

@Ernest Bywater

No argument with what you said for I agree. However, there is one aspect of using a sex scene for character development that was not mentioned.

Sex usually includes an emotional interaction between two people. A gratuitous sex scene that displays no emotional bonding is telling you things about the two characters. The most likely messages being they are incapable of expressing emotion or they are so into themselves that they have no feeling for others. So it is not always that which is visible that is important, it can be what you don't see, hear, or sense.

ETA Most readers read a sex scene and only 'get' what is 'shown' to them. If you as the Author are going to 'show' something about a character my omitting something, then you need to emphasize what was omitted. For example, if a character displays no love during the scene, you could have other characters discussing how cold and unemotional the characteristic is.

Replies:   Ernest Bywater
robberhands

@Ernest Bywater

The problem with sex scenes in a lot of stories at SoL, but not all of them, is some authors stick in gratuitous sex scenes because they feel they have to have sex scenes to post a story at Sol. Thus they look for creative ways to include a sex scenes in the story to try and make it fit better.

I don't know where you got that information. I've never read a blog of an author where something like this was mentioned. The only other source of information I can asses about an author's motivation is this forum, but I can't remember any author here mentioning something like that either. So how do you know that "some authors stick in gratuitous sex scenes because they feel they have to have sex scenes to post a story at Sol"? I also wonder why it's the problem "in a lot of stories at SoL", but only "some authors" have that problem. Are these authors so very prolific?

REP

@robberhands

The only other source of information I can asses about an author's motivation is this forum,


I recall EB's comment coming up in the forum on several occasions in the past 2-3 years. It is also not the type of comment that an Author is going to put in their blog.

When I first started posting on SOL, I felt sex scenes needed to be added to a story for that is what the readers expected. I quickly realized that was not true. Since then, I only add sex scenes when I feel they are appropriate for the storyline. When I do add a sex scene, it is typically an emotionally based scene rather than two people looking for sexual pleasure.

robberhands

@REP

...I only add sex scenes when I feel they are appropriate for the storyline.

I handle sex scenes like every other scene in my stories. I don't know why I should watch them differently, or handle them with special caution. I don't want to imply that's what you said. It's just the course of these discussions in general.

Dominions Son

@robberhands

I don't know why I should watch them differently, or handle them with special caution.


I'll second that.

REP

@robberhands

It wasn't my intent to imply how anyone should handle a sex scene or any other scene. The intent of the post was the topic has been discussed in the Form, but you weren't a participant.

Replies:   robberhands
robberhands

@REP

It wasn't my intent to imply how anyone should handle a sex scene or any other scene.

I know, that's why I wrote

I don't want to imply that's what you said.

Ernest Bywater

@REP

Sex usually includes an emotional interaction between two people. A gratuitous sex scene that displays no emotional bonding is telling you things about the two characters. The most likely messages being they are incapable of expressing emotion or they are so into themselves that they have no feeling for others.


When it's being used to show an aspect of the characters it's not gratuitous. I actual use some sex scenes in the start of Finding Home to show the main character's attitude to life at that time, and some later sex scenes show his changed attitude. The whole purpose of the sex scenes was to show those changing attitudes, and why.

Replies:   REP
Ernest Bywater

@robberhands

So how do you know that "some authors stick in gratuitous sex scenes because they feel they have to have sex scenes to post a story at Sol"?


I said it because some authors have said in forum posts they only included the sex scenes because they thought they were expected to have them.

It's only an issue with some authors, because only some authors include gratuitous sex scenes. Some authors use the sex scenes to show aspects of the characters, and some authors use the sex scenes as the story plot - common in stroke stories.

REP

@Ernest Bywater

When it's being used to show an aspect of the characters it's not gratuitous.


If the reader sees no aspect, then to the reader, it appears to be a gratuitous sex scene; at least, until it is explained to them by other characters.

Switch Blayde

@Ernest Bywater

If the scene doesn't fulfil one of those needs in then becomes a gratuitous scene which can be easily skipped over or removed.


I don't read romance novels, but I do watch a lot of movies. There are many gratuitous sex scenes in movies that add nothing to the plot or character development. They're there because the director believes their audience wants them. My guess is that's true for romance novels as well. Their target audience likes hot sex scenes.

Replies:   Crumbly Writer
robberhands

'The couple enters the bedroom and the scene fades to black'; a common occurrence in books as well as movies. Much rarer;'The hero draws his gun opens the door to the ware-house and the scene fades to black.' The reason these themes are handled so differently is a cultural bias, displaying rather doubtful moral values.

awnlee jawking

@robberhands

I don't know where you got that information.


It's easily discernible from reading the stories. When done badly, the chapter's tick box sex scene sticks out like a sore thumb. Even when done well, it can be boring and repetitious, especially in long stories. There are several authors where I know I can safely skip a chapter's tick box sex scene and not miss anything.

AJ

Replies:   robberhands
StarFleet Carl

@Ernest Bywater

If the aim of a scene involving sex is to show something in the post sex activities or discussion, then there is no need to provide a graphic description of the sex activities that's not directly relevant to the post sex discussion etc. the author can easily do a cut to black type description and then move onto what they want the scene to provide after the sex.


My first story on here (which implies I'll post more - I'm working on it) I did a combination. Due to the plot of the story, the main character having sex with others becomes an integral portion of the story because of special things that happen when she ... and later, others that she's also had sex with, or finds that she cares for ... also have sex.

But while I specifically went explicit with my descriptions, I also didn't go to stroke story length for the sex scenes. It would have been relatively easy to make those sex scenes stroke story length, but to me that would not have advanced the plot. It's sort of like grinding things out in a video game, doing repetitive tasks in order to increase your skills - it's fun to do it the first half dozen times, the rest of the time it becomes a chore. That's why I wrote it that way - I DID want to include some explicit sex, and bedroom talk while that was going on was important to the plot - but the sex wasn't the main focus of the story.

That, and as is, the darned thing is in the top 125 longest stories on this site (albeit barely, at number 124). If I'd put in the actual stroke story scenes, it'd have been a lot longer and not actually ended any differently.

robberhands

@awnlee jawking

It's easily discernible from reading the stories.

You mix up execution with intent.

Replies:   awnlee jawking
Crumbly Writer

@robberhands

The problem with sex scenes in a lot of stories at SoL, but not all of them, is some authors stick in gratuitous sex scenes because they feel they have to have sex scenes to post a story at Sol. Thus they look for creative ways to include a sex scenes in the story to try and make it fit better.

I don't know where you got that information. I've never read a blog of an author where something like this was mentioned.

I suspect Ernest's comment was based on a few of my comments over the years, where I get fed up because readers would often skip over sex scenes—even when the entire story revolved around the scene. Many authors response to that type of situation (which is mainly isolated to my writing, since I dump so much non-sex content (discussions about the characters and what's happening in the larger stories) by limiting sex scenes to nothing BUT the sex and romance aspects, isolating it so, if readers decide to skip over it, they won't be lost and then complain to the author.

Aside from that being isolated to only a few authors, it illustrates a couple major issues. Stories with romantic sex scenes ARE popular, so the strongest stories WILL have some romance in them. Those of who who've decided to avoid or limit the sexual content do it at the cost of decreased popularity.

In the end, neither the 'limited sex scenes', isolating the sex scenes or constraining the number of sex scenes makes much sense, as it hurts both the author and readers only to please a few readers who like to bitch when they're simply not 'in the mood' to read a sex scene.

The other point, is that sex is what first brings readers to the site (mostly older white men), who immediately focus on the stroke stories, but once here, they eventually gravitate to the more complete stories with more involved plot and (hopefully) better writing. Thus you'll see more and more highly rated non-sexual stories.

Replies:   robberhands
Crumbly Writer

@REP

When I do add a sex scene, it is typically an emotionally based scene rather than two people looking for sexual pleasure.

No pun intended, but everyone likes happy endings, so even most stroke stories prefer focusing on romantic entanglements (i.e. most "much sex" or "stroke" stories focus on couple engaging with multiple partners, or some searching for their ideal partner, rather than the casual hookup story).

Replies:   REP
Ernest Bywater

CW,

I started the thread to try and move a discussion on the topic off another thread that was being destroyed by it, while also bringing some starting order to it.

In a romance story the romantic scenes, be they with or without sex, add to the romantic plot, and are part of the plot development. So, like the scenes Robberhands was mentioning where they move some part of the plot or character along, they're relevant and belong. But some readers may not recognise the relevance on the first read.

Crumbly Writer

@robberhands

I handle sex scenes like every other scene in my stories. I don't know why I should watch them differently, or handle them with special caution. I don't want to imply that's what you said. It's just the course of these discussions in general.

The problem isn't so much the authors handling sex scenes differently, but with readers treating them differently, which eventually pressures authors to change how they write sex scenes, either making them 'easier to bypass', or limiting the total number of sex scenes to cater to a select (and vocal) market, though it runs counter to the general demand on the site.

But I agree with you, Ernest is expressing the ideas badly, suggesting authors are merely including material which has nothing to do with the story, rather than authors trying to 'please' readers by segregating material they may have trouble with. (my example of this are the readers who've just had sex, or just broken up with someone, who have NO interest in reading a sex scene skipping over any sex scene they encounter, and then bitching when the story no longer makes sense because they also skipped over a key element in the story.)

robberhands

@Crumbly Writer

...they eventually gravitate to the more complete stories with more involved plot and (hopefully) better writing. Thus you'll see more and more highly rated non-sexual stories.

Thank you so much for another example of your condescending opinions.

Replies:   Crumbly Writer
awnlee jawking

@robberhands

Statistically there's a very strong correlation when an author includes precisely one gratuitously explicit sex scene per chapter.

Or did I misinterpret your meaning?

AJ

Replies:   robberhands
robberhands

@awnlee jawking

Or did I misinterpret your meaning?

How would I know?

More important: If I write ten really bad stories, will your correlating statistic prove that it was my intent to write bad stories?

Lapi
Updated:

I was told by a web helper, not Laz, that the reason none of my 120 stories get a score of 8 or more is because they are not erotic and have explicit sex in them. I have to think either my stories are really bad or that Asst was on to something since readers have scored some 8-10 85% of the time but SOL rates them 6 or 6.5. I had 2 editors for them, now 1 but other stories he has edited in the past were 8-9.

I freely admit my early work had spelling and grammar errors. 4-5 years later though new ones don't yet a 6 or 7 score does not even come close to how some poor stories are rated.

Minimal and no sex seem to be the Kiss of death for SOL. A few(4) other writers still on SOL have similar opinions based on what they have told me.

Other than FineStories is there any on-line place similar to SOL that no Sex and minimal sex stories are not frowned upon?

Outside that aspect of SOL and Laz's continued argument that the scores reflect a 'weighted' value against what is posted each day, SOL is well run and Laz does a yeoman's job running it.

My reaction for a year or two has been to delete 20-30- stories that were not downloaded much and not finish 30-40 others, some have decent downloads of 30-40,000 each. Lapi is only 1 Pen name I use, Pappy is another all told about 700,000 downloads. I hate to think what I write is as bad as the scores indicate, but hey, what do I know?

Wayne

REP

@Crumbly Writer

or some searching for their ideal partner, rather than the casual hookup story


Most of the stroke sex scenes I've encountered have nothing to do with the participants looking for their ideal partner. Physical attraction and lust brought them together, the encounter is about who is doing what to whom, and when it is over they get on with their lives. There is no emotional bonding during the encounter, but there is an agreement, spoken or unspoken if they enjoy themselves, to do it again sometime in the future.

Replies:   Crumbly Writer
robberhands

@robberhands

Other than FineStories is there any on-line place similar to SOL that no Sex and minimal sex stories are not frowned upon?

I'm very certain no one here frowns upon no 'sex stories'. Actually the contrary attitude is nowadays very much in favor. We just had a very long, and very useless discussion about the question if stories with sexual content score better or worse than those without it. I just hope it won't repeat itself. You can look it up if you're interested, although I'd advise against it.

awnlee jawking

@robberhands

Correlations don't actually prove anything, unless you're a UN soapbox scientist. ;)

AJ

REP
Updated:

@Lapi


I hate to think what I write is as bad as the scores indicate, but hey, what do I know?


I've seen your stories posted and I recall reading some of them, I just don't recall their storyline or what I thought of them.

Overall I agree with what you say. No Sex and Minimal Sex stories do not score as well as stories with a lot of sex. I look at my story ratings and think part of the less than 8 ratings is due to my writing skills and part of it due to readers not finding as much sex as them want. My personal opinion is Authors need to be true to themselves. If you are happy with what you posted, then don't allow the subjective opinions of readers to ruin your satisfaction.

Replies:   Dominions Son  Lapi
Dominions Son

@REP

No Sex and Minimal Sex stories do not score as well as stories with a lot of sex.


Aside from stories with heavy political or religious themes, no-sex stories are probably scored more honestly.

With sex stories you get the asshats who 1-bomb any story with content that is a squick for them, and the fan boys who will give a 10 to any story that feeds their kinks.

Replies:   REP  Crumbly Writer
REP

@Dominions Son

That sounds very true to me.

Replies:   robberhands
robberhands

@REP

That sounds very true to me.

It sounds very reasonable, thereby it will most likely prove wrong.

Replies:   Dominions Son
Dominions Son

@robberhands

It sounds very reasonable, thereby it will most likely prove wrong.


I can't argue with that logic. :)

Ernest Bywater

@Lapi

Minimal and no sex seem to be the Kiss of death for SOL. A few(4) other writers still on SOL have similar opinions based on what they have told me.


This issue was well covered recently in a thread - Penalty for No Sex Stories

http://storiesonline.net/d/s2/t2584/penalty-for-no-sex-stories

Where a lot of research was done about the stories on SoL and the stats provided. In one post is the following:

There isn't enough data to give any definitive information, but they good indicators of some trends.

based on the 40,395 stories 10.13% are no sex stories. 6.16% (no sex = 1.44% - - sex stories = 4.72%) of stories score more than 8, and 3.87% (no sex = 0.09% - - sex stories = 2.92%) of stories score more than 9. When you split that as a percentage of the scoring group you get 23.38% of the 8+ scores and 25.36% of the 9+ scores from the no sex stories which are 10% of the total number of stories - - Which indicates the no sex stories score (on average) higher than the sex stories by a significant margin.


What's important to keep in mind is the scores aren't dependent on how well a story is or isn't written, but on how the story appeals to readers, which is more based on the plot and how the story itself unfolds. The writing quality is a part of that, but not as big as some people think.

BTW: The weighting takes into account a lot longer period than just a day, but I'm not sure exactly how big the period is - but some past periods covered years.

Most story sites insist on either no sex at all in the stories on the site, or stories on the site must have sex in them and all the characters are over 18 - some sites even insist every character must be over 18, even those not involved in having any sex. Some sites that insist on sex in the stories will reject minimal sex stories. SoL is the only site I've found that will allow the full range - other than Project Guttenberg, and they only accept Public Domain stories.

Replies:   Lapi  Joe Long
Lapi

@REP

I think you have it right DS. When or if one does not enjoy writing then there is little alternative but to stop.

Lapi

@Ernest Bywater

I would think those stats do not consider those stories written long ago or by authors who had gotten high scores before the changes in 2013 or so.

Don't mean to be negative but Most of the time my stories got a 1, 2 or 3 rating was before Laz let authors 'hide' their stories behind the 'paywall'. Don't recall any pay stories getting the 1's.

Replies:   Ernest Bywater  REP
Switch Blayde

@Lapi

Minimal and no sex seem to be the Kiss of death for SOL.


Actually, story length plays a bigger role in score. Long stories have the advantage more-so than the amount of sex in it.

Replies:   Crumbly Writer
Ernest Bywater
Updated:

@Lapi


by authors who had gotten high scores before the changes in 2013 or so.


When I did those stats I wasn't looking at the dates they were written or posted, so you're right in they don't take their age into consideration. The option to have Premier Member Only stories has been around since the site started, I've got a sex story I posted behind the paywall back in 2010. The only change with the restricted stories is the recent decision to move the stories of inactive authors behind the paywall to encourage people to buy memberships by increasing the size of restricted stories.

About stats, I'm going with the intent of the section quoted being about stories posted since the last change in the scoring system around 2013. I'm fairly certain all the story votes since the last change are what are used for calculating the current weighted scores. Going from my story stats page, and keeping it to the stories posted in the last since February 2015 (the last 30 months) I've got 51 stories of which 27 are Clan Amir stories written years early and delayed in posting here which are no sex stories and score between 6.89 and 8.56 - most are short stories. Of the other 24 stories one is a very long much sex story with a score of 6.90 and the remaining 23 stories are mostly novel length no sex stories with scores between 7.02 and 8.57. Of my 105 stories posted during the last ten years my highest score is a no sex short story at 9.23 with the lowest being a much sex short story at 5.88. 89 stories score 7.00 or higher. & of my lowest scoring stories are much sex, while 2 of them are series information files and not real stories. The first of my highest scoring stories to have sex in it is in 14th place with 8.15 for a some sex story and the next story with sex is a short story in 47th place at 7.64 - which isn't surprising because of the 105 stories only 18 have sex in them. Time wise most of my top stories are from prior to 2015 with 9 being from 2015 and since, and the first of them is in 4th place.

I don't think my stats are typical of the site, but I don't think they're too far off the mean, either.

the usual typo edit - yes I use a 104 style keyboard variant.

Replies:   helmut_meukel
helmut_meukel
Updated:

@Ernest Bywater


highest score is a no sex short story at 9.23 with the lowest being a much sex short story at 5.88. *9 stories score 7.00 or higher. & of my lowest scoring stories are much sex, while 2 of them are series information files and not real stories.


Obviously there are 2 typos "*9" and "&". It's clear you used the keys above the character keys, but which? On my german keyboard the asterisk is on the same key as the plus.

The displayed keyboard layouts in Wikipedia show only three different layouts for both * and & above numbers:

US and GB both with & above 7 and * above 8

swiss keyboard with & above 6 and * above 3

I presume you are using an english keyboard so you intended to write: "89 stories score 7.00 or higher. 7 of my lowest".

If you however are using a swiss keyboard it would be: "39 stories score 7.00 or higher. 6 of my lowest".

Asuming all readers can see what you tried to type just by looking on their own keyboard would be faulty logic ;-)

HM.

Replies:   Ernest Bywater
REP

@Lapi

Don't recall any pay stories getting the 1's.


If true, then 1-bombers don't want to pay for the privilege of 1-bombing all stories.

Ernest Bywater

@helmut_meukel

Obviously there are 2 typos "*9" and "&". It's clear you used the keys above the character keys


thanks for pointing out the typo, I've a small key keyboard and sometimes hit multiple keys because my fingers are bigger than the keys - not sure why that combined og shift 8 happened.

Joe Long

@Ernest Bywater

SoL is the only site I've found that will allow the full range - other than Project Guttenberg, and they only accept Public Domain stories.


I previously had my story at Adult Fan Fiction. They similarly had a 14+ age limit. She Is the One is a long running serial (78 chapters, nearing 2 million words) that has minimal sex. It's not uncommon for a chapter to have 20k words and no sex (just teen drama.)

Replies:   Crumbly Writer
Crumbly Writer

@Switch Blayde

There are many gratuitous sex scenes in movies that add nothing to the plot or character development. They're there because the director believes their audience wants them. My guess is that's true for romance novels as well. Their target audience likes hot sex scenes.

It's not quite that superficial. The typical plot is girl sees someone they like, guy approaches, they flirt and 'work each other', something happens which distract them, and they eventually get together and have their happy ending (i.e. they become 'romantically attached). That sounds suspiciously like a PLOT to me!

Replies:   Switch Blayde
Switch Blayde
Updated:

@Crumbly Writer


It's not quite that superficial. The typical plot is girl sees someone they like, guy approaches, they flirt and 'work each other',


You're defining a certain genre. I think it was the second episode of "The Ranch" where Ashton Kushner went into a back room in his mother's bar with a girl who's supposed to be 18 in the show. He pushes her shorts down and shoves his hands inside the back of her panties. Then he lifts her onto the table and gets between her wide spread legs while she's going after his pants. His father walks in so it stops.

Sex for the sake of sex. There was some humor to it, but she didn't have to be in her panties with his hands inside them for the scene to work.

Dominions Son

@Switch Blayde

but she didn't have to be in her panties with his hands inside them for the scene to work.


Other's may not share your opinion on that. I have no opinion one way or another, because I haven't watched it.

robberhands

@Switch Blayde

Sex for the sake of sex. There was some humor to it, but she didn't have to be in her panties with his hands inside them for the scene to work.

First off, I wonder if you could still remember this scene if the girl had been fully dressed. I've never seen the show, and neither do I know what could or couldn't have worked in this particular scene, but I know a girl in panties changes the ambience of a scene a great deal. Also I'm not nitpicking when I mention that "sex for the sake of sex" is no guidline to produce a commercial TV- Show. It's sex for the sake of the audience, i.e. success and money.

Crumbly Writer

@robberhands

Thank you so much for another example of your condescending opinions.

Sorry, I honestly don't mind the stroke or much-sex stories. I was just trying to note how many readers first come to SOL for the sex stories, but eventually switch over the more traditional stories (while never losing their appreciation for what brought them here, but no longer focusing on it exclusively).

I surmise that's also what happens to the scores over time. That the no-sex stories start off with lower scores, but they increase over time as more readers eventually discover them.

If it wasn't for this gradual transition, my stories would NEVER get noticed.

Replies:   robberhands
Crumbly Writer

@Lapi

I was told by a web helper, not Laz, that the reason none of my 120 stories get a score of 8 or more is because they are not erotic and have explicit sex in them. I have to think either my stories are really bad or that Asst was on to something since readers have scored some 8-10 85% of the time but SOL rates them 6 or 6.5. I had 2 editors for them, now 1 but other stories he has edited in the past were 8-9.

I'll admit, my earlier stories, which included frequent sex, incest and harem themes, had MUCH higher ratings (8s instead of 6s and 7s). The same is true with FS. My stories traditionally score higher on SOL than they do on FS (possibly because of the no-sex content allowed?).

I've been wondering all this time whether my readers have tired of my stories, or my more recent writing is weaker than my original work, but I'm now thinking it's simply that I no longer include nearly as much sex, and when I do, I only include it when absolutely necessary for the plot (largely because of complaints from a few readers, even though they're STILL my highest rated individual chapters).

Crumbly Writer

@REP

Most of the stroke sex scenes I've encountered have nothing to do with the participants looking for their ideal partner. Physical attraction and lust brought them together, the encounter is about who is doing what to whom, and when it is over they get on with their lives. There is no emotional bonding during the encounter, but there is an agreement, spoken or unspoken if they enjoy themselves, to do it again sometime in the future.

Again, I think I'm conflating "stroke" with "much sex". It seems what I think of as "stroke" stories feature COUPLES having sex with hundreds of women, or single dudes who screw hundreds of women before or while finding their perfect mate. Guess I've been reading the wrong stories!

Replies:   REP
Crumbly Writer

@Dominions Son

With sex stories you get the asshats who 1-bomb any story with content that is a squick for them, and the fan boys who will give a 10 to any story that feeds their kinks.

I don't think it's a few pervs registering all the 10 votes. Instead, I think that certain fans just like certain stories and vote them 10. Thus certain authors just get a LOT of 10 votes. No one is 'rigging' the system.

On the other hand, most times I've watched the behavior of 1-bombers, they post the 1-votes because they have a specific political issue with it (such as the inclusion of gays or politics they don't agree with), even when they continue reading each chapter (I get so few 1 votes, it USED to be easy to track them, before Lazeez started hiding the outermost 5% of scores).

I've always taken exception to the '10 vote fan boy' theory, because it includes MOST of my most loyal fans. I suspect that most simply don't read any of my stories they're not interested in, but the amount of 10 scores DOES vary over time, although the 1s rarely do (once you earn a 1 vote, chances are they'll vote 1 for EVERY story you ever post, just because you crossed an imaginary line in their 'political enemies' list).

Crumbly Writer

@Switch Blayde

Actually, story length plays a bigger role in score. Long stories have the advantage more-so than the amount of sex in it.

I agree with that. It's true on all levels, but especially for the 50+ or 100+ stories, which might explain why so few 100+ authors continue writing. I'm guessing that they're either afraid to start with a new story, or start and immediately get discouraged that no one 'likes' their new stories as much as their older (longer) one.

Crumbly Writer

@Joe Long

It's not uncommon for a chapter to have 20k words and no sex (just teen drama.)

That's one long-assed chapter (or long-pants chapter if there's no sex involved).

robberhands
Updated:

@Crumbly Writer


I surmise that's also what happens to the scores over time. That the no-sex stories start off with lower scores, but they increase over time as more readers eventually discover them.


And while more and more readers discover the story it gets better and better, so the score rises? That doesn't make much sense to me.

Replies:   REP  Crumbly Writer
REP

@Crumbly Writer

Guess I've been reading the wrong stories!


More likely an unconscious assumption that the single dude is using sex to look for a relationship (or the couple is looking to form a threesome). A Stroke Story could be about either - just sexual pleasure or a potential long, or short-term, relationship.

Replies:   Crumbly Writer
REP
Updated:

@robberhands


That doesn't make much sense to me.


Some readers won't start a story until it is finished and others don't find the story until sometime after it is completed.

It is the 1-bombers and 10-fan boys who rate a story as soon as the Author starts posting; in addition to other readers who find the story and don't object to reading it as it is posted. Assuming the story is more than a couple of chapters in length, the score stabilizes while the story is being posted at some rating; assume 7.0.

I suspect the people who wait for a story to finish like the Author's other stories so they will likely rate the story at more than 7.0. I also suspect that people who find the story after it has been completed are looking for particular types of stories, which they enjoy reading. They are likely to rate stories that please them at more than 7.0.

Overall, the story's rating is likely to increase after the last chapter is posted.

ETA: CW was referring to the score/rating getting better. Granted the story may also get better as additional chapters are posted.

robberhands

@REP

Let me propose a different scenario. A large part of the first readers of a new story are readers who know and like the author. Another large part are readers who like the genre of the story. Both type of readers are likely to give the story high scores. Now other readers without such biases get atrackted due to the high score of the story. But without a positive bias the score will drop.

Replies:   REP  Crumbly Writer
Geek of Ages

Another aspect of completed stories that have been around for a while is that they're more likely to be recommended. The stories people like, they'll recommend to other people who will likely also like those stories. This can lead to some score increases, I figure.

Replies:   Crumbly Writer
REP
Updated:

@robberhands


Let me propose a different scenario.


Yes, that is a valid scenario and I suspect it happens. However, it doesn't fit or explain CW's remark about the rating rising over time, which is what you didn't understand.

Replies:   robberhands  Not_a_ID
robberhands

@REP

However, it doesn't fit or explain CW's remark about the rating rising over time, which is what you didn't understand.

True, and I rather doubt its validity.

Replies:   Crumbly Writer
sejintenej

@Ernest Bywater

If the aim of a scene involving sex is to show something in the post sex activities or discussion, then there is no need to provide a graphic description of the sex activities that's not directly relevant to the post sex discussion etc. the author can easily do a cut to black type description and then move onto what they want the scene to provide after the sex.

The problem with sex scenes in a lot of stories at SoL, but not all of them, is some authors stick in gratuitous sex scenes because they feel they have to have sex scenes to post a story at Sol. Thus they look for creative ways to include a sex scenes in the story to try and make it fit better.


One of the problems is that so many authors insert such scenes that how can they bring a new aspect? Quite simply they get boring.
By contrast one story has the MC interested in two women through I think it is four entire stories. Quite simply both were unattainable - one has a boyfriend, the other is lesbian. His eventual coming together with one of them in the fifth is low key with comparatively minimal description which actually makes it a good read

Crumbly Writer

@robberhands

And while more and more readers discover the story it gets better and better, so the score rises? That doesn't make much sense to me.

The story doesn't get any better, but stories that don't get much attention at first, simply because they don't contain the tags that readers are most interested in, eventually find their target over time as more readers search out other stories and discover new authors to appreciate, rather than only restricting themselves to the genres they're looking for.

By the way, you're really resorting to stating the obvious today. What? Nothing to bitch about from actual comments, you have to invent complaints out of things not actually said or implied?

Replies:   robberhands
Crumbly Writer

@REP

Guess I've been reading the wrong stories!

More likely an unconscious assumption that the single dude is using sex to look for a relationship (or the couple is looking to form a threesome). A Stroke Story could be about either - just sexual pleasure or a potential long, or short-term, relationship.

No. Rather, I've NEVER spent much time on the "New Stories" page, instead spending ALL my time on the "Story Updates" page. Thus I tend to bypass the majority of Stroke stories and instead focus on the long, multi-chapter (50+) sex stories that revolve around a specific plot.

I very rarely read either short stories or anything less than 10 chapters, at a minimum. Even then, I mostly rely on authors I recognize and expect to write longer stories.

That's caused 'selective' reading, causing me to make assumptions about what's a "Stroke" story.

Crumbly Writer

@REP

It is the 1-bombers and 10-fan boys who rate a story as soon as the Author starts posting; in addition to other readers who find the story and don't object to reading it as it is posted. Assuming the story is more than a couple of chapters in length, the score stabilizes while the story is being posted at some rating; assume 7.0.

Once again, I've never seen that assumption play out in my story stats. Instead, the initial score tends to remain fairly steady. Readers WILL rate each chapter individually, so a particularly exciting chapters will show up in higher scores for THAT chapter, but the score won't really change much.

However, that changes once a story finishes. Once the story wraps up, several things happen. First of all, everyone gives the story a 'final score', so the overall score will jump, for only a day or two, and then the score will drop, as more readers who never cared for the story in the first place try it out and discover that it still doesn't interest them.

However, over time, as enough people discover it, that initial 'downvoting' trend tends to get overwritten by larger numbers of readers who 1) won't read anything but completed stories, and 2) simply didn't notice the story the exact instant it completed.

That's why I tend to poo-poo the whole '1-bomber' and 'fanboy' inflation theory. I just have never seen it occurring in actual practice. But then, I'm making these assumptions based on what I see in my own stories. If you see different results, please, let us know what you're seeing so we can gain from your experiences.

Crumbly Writer

@robberhands

Let me propose a different scenario. A large part of the first readers of a new story are readers who know and like the author. Another large part are readers who like the genre of the story. Both type of readers are likely to give the story high scores. Now other readers without such biases get atrackted due to the high score of the story. But without a positive bias the score will drop.

That makes sense, as does the fact that many stories finish better than they start, so scores tend to rise over time. But again, your theory doesn't seem to correlate as strongly with the behavior I'm observing (the 2-day rise, the week or two decline and the several weeks or months gradual rise in scores).

Yes, clearly those who like a particular author will read their stories, often regardless of the subject matter, and will score it because it already suits their tastes, but I don't consider them 'fanboys', they're simply getting the kinds of stories that they appreciate. If they dislike the story, for whatever reason, they'll definitely let you know about it soon enough! That isn't blind loyalty, it's an interest in the kinds of stories a particular author writes.

Crumbly Writer

@Geek of Ages

Another aspect of completed stories that have been around for a while is that they're more likely to be recommended. The stories people like, they'll recommend to other people who will likely also like those stories. This can lead to some score increases, I figure.

Whereas abandoned stories, or those which frustrate readers because of a poor ending, rarely get recommended to anyone (Cmsix is excluded, as he stands in a class of his own)!

Crumbly Writer

@robberhands

True, and I rather doubt its validity.

Which? My observations, or your alternate theory?

robberhands

@Crumbly Writer

By the way, you're really resorting to stating the obvious today. What? Nothing to bitch about from actual comments, you have to invent complaints out of things not actually said or implied?

Today? I made that comment two days ago. I commented on this:

I surmise that's also what happens to the scores over time. That the no-sex stories start off with lower scores, but they increase over time as more readers eventually discover them.

Nothing you said explains the rise of scores you claim. A score doesn't rise because a story gets more readers.

Replies:   Crumbly Writer
Crumbly Writer

@robberhands

Nothing you said explains the rise of scores you claim. A score doesn't rise because a story gets more readers.

I can't believe that I have to explain the obvious. MORE READERS = MORE VOTES. Also, MORE READERS typically means a wider VARIETY of VOTES, whereas early voters tend to vote consistently, one way or another. Thus, over time, you tend to get 'truer' scores than you do while the story is STILL POSTING.

The story doesn't 'get better', but as I explained (REPEATEDLY), it 'finds its audience'.

Just like I don't both with the "New Stories" page, many readers never notice my stories. However, over time, they're bound to encounter one or two.

The first batch of votes are somewhat circumspect (people who already like or dislike the work), while the later scores end to be more representative of how readers actually feel about a story.

Now, we can shout and argue about this all week. After all, it's clear that you're convinced that I have NOTHING OF VALUE TO SAY ON ANY matter, and would argue with me if I stated the moon ISN'T made of green cheese. SO let's just drop the topic.

Rather than discuss topics, you seem primarily interested in making relatively minor objections and then shutting down the entire discussion, simply to silence any opinion which you don't like!

And yes, sometimes people don't get to every single reply within five minutes of their being posted! That's why I reply to five posts at one time. CLEARLY the posts have accumulated over time! Get over it, already! Geez!

If you REALLY dislike me that much, then just tell me to leave SOL and never come back. I will never do it, but at least I'd respect you for speaking the truth, rather than merely using passive aggressive techniques to hide your agenda.

And yes, I'm a very STRONG cup of tea. MANY people don't appreciate my strongly stated opinions, but I'd respect you more if you simply suggested I phase things more delicately than if you attack EVERY FRIGGIN' WORD I SAY!!!!

Replies:   robberhands  Not_a_ID
robberhands
Updated:

@Crumbly Writer


I can't believe that I have to explain the obvious. MORE READERS = MORE VOTES.

Since I never objected that equation you don't have to explain it. I doubt the validity of more readers = more votes = higher scores.

I'll ignore the rest of your rant as it's no more than baseless accusations I've seen you threw around from time to time.

Replies:   Switch Blayde
Switch Blayde

@robberhands

more readers = higher scores.


I'd say more readers is probably more votes. More votes = more accurate score because the statistical pool is larger.

robberhands

@Switch Blayde

More votes = more accurate score because the statistical pool is larger.

I won't argue 'more accurate' scores, which is a most likely result of more votes.

Crumbly Writer

@Switch Blayde

I'd say more readers is probably more votes. More votes = more accurate score because the statistical pool is larger.

Thank you, Switch. Once again, I was typing too fast and didn't notice the "readers" instead of "votes". I was saying that the initial scores are probably unreliable because there's simply too small of a sample size, from too limited of a pool (i.e. everyone voting already either has a vested interest, or specific expectations).

Again, it has nothing whatsoever to do with a story getting better, and everything with the initial scores being questionable.

Not_a_ID

@REP

Yes, that is a valid scenario and I suspect it happens. However, it doesn't fit or explain CW's remark about the rating rising over time, which is what you didn't understand.


There are two things that come into play on longer stories, or long running series(which tend to turn into "longer stories").

The first one, which has already been mentioned, is word of mouth. The story gets recommends from other people who have already read it.

The other thing that will start to happen is that other people will start to consider reading a story after it exceeds a certain length/file size. For example, my personal "sweet spot" preference for picking up a story is in the 20K to 40K word range. So if you're posting 8K word chapters, one chapter at a time, it'll be anywhere from 3 to 5 postings before you start showing up on my radar, and potentially obtain a rating.

Replies:   REP
Not_a_ID
Updated:

@Crumbly Writer

I can't believe that I have to explain the obvious. MORE READERS = MORE VOTES. Also, MORE READERS typically means a wider VARIETY of VOTES, whereas early voters tend to vote consistently, one way or another. Thus, over time, you tend to get 'truer' scores than you do while the story is STILL POSTING.


Another way to potentially explain the behavior over time(and slow increase that eventually happens on concluded/inactive stories) is "Who is seeing the story as available, and how did they discover it?"

A "New Story" or "Updated Story" shows up on the SoL listing page for everybody to see. After the initial 2 to 3 days are up, the non-paid SoL users have the story listing drop off those particular listing.

Which then means the only ones seeing it in a general way(through the New/Updated Stories lists) is the paid SOL users. (Note: This isn't to say that a "fanboy" cannot be a paid member too, just that if they're a member of "that club" they probably "voted early"--immediately after seeing a new story/update was posted)

Which makes this a little bit odd:

That makes sense, as does the fact that many stories finish better than they start, so scores tend to rise over time. But again, your theory doesn't seem to correlate as strongly with the behavior I'm observing (the 2-day rise, the week or two decline and the several weeks or months gradual rise in scores).


As "the 2 day rise" would be the unpaid users, which includes the 1 bombers evidently, as well as probably a number of the fanboys and girls. Then for the next few weeks it enters into the realm of the Paid Members "getting around" to reading the story and rendering their respective verdicts.

After which point in time the story "falls off" any active listing from SoL's system, short of it turning up on the random story quasi-promotional thingy. Which means the people who are venturing into the story at that point are either:

1) Reading the story because they were looking for a specific hot code, or otherwise found it through some kind of search undertaken on their part.

2) Reading the story as a consequence of someone recommending the story to them.

In both cases, it is a safe bet that the readers in those two scenarios are likely to be more generous in the reviews of the story because it contained elements they were actively looking for/seeking out. So as those votes start to pile up, they begin to offset the more "impartial" voting that may have been happening by the paid SoL users after the story dropped off the New/Updated stories listing for the unpaid members.

REP
Updated:

@Not_a_ID


There are two things that come into play on longer stories


Neither of which explains WHY the rating increases as CW said. The only thing you address is factors that draw more readers, who may rate the story higher or lower than the current rating.

ETA: The same thing applies to your post to CW. What you are addressing is how readers find the story. You are assuming the readers will like the story and give it a higher rating and that is not true in all cases.

Dominions Son

@REP

The only thing you address is factors that draw more readers, who may rate the story higher or lower than the current rating.


I would expect that readers brought to a story by word of mouth "advertising", to be at least moderately biased to people likely to enjoy the story and thus rate it higher.

Replies:   REP
REP

@Dominions Son

That is true in some cases, but 'word of mouth' advertising is not to be trusted.

My wife and I learned to not trust other people's recommendations for places to eat. We found most of the places people recommended to be lousy. Their taste and ours were very different. The same is true in reading material.

Not_a_ID

@REP

Neither of which explains WHY the rating increases as CW said. The only thing you address is factors that draw more readers, who may rate the story higher or lower than the current rating.


The new story/new update has a "large intake" happen, for some authors, this can be bad(poor scoring), and positive for others(the observed one was mostly positive). Which happens during the period of maximum visibility--listed for free and premier users alike. The unpaid users, it seems, probably trend towards one extreme or the other.

The premier users who don't jump on a story in the first few days, but while its still "recent" seem to be more moderate in their scoring habits. Which results in scores falling as their votes add to the tally.

After that "recent listings" drop off, it falls into the realm of people looking for specific content/things. I'd generally expect that they're going to favorably rate stories that provide "what they're looking for."

Generally speaking, I'd agree with DS, I wouldn't trust generic word of mouth, because tastes do differ. But if I'm on a forum that is specific to certain fetish/hot code, and "a reputable poster" provides a decent thumbnail presentation of why I might want to check out a story, I'll probably consider it if I enjoy that fetish(and if I don't, what was I doing there?).

That and "word of mouth" can take the form of regular/reliable reviewers you consider trustworthy enough in regards to your own tastes. Kind of like using them as your own Siskel and Ebert. Even if you disagree with their conclusions, you still go in with some general idea of what to expect.

Ergo, the "word of mouth" reader is likely to also be looking for a specific thing, and if the person who did the referral did it well, that means the referred person will be likely to rate it favorably.

Crumbly Writer

@REP

That is true in some cases, but 'word of mouth' advertising is not to be trusted.

My wife and I learned to not trust other people's recommendations for places to eat. We found most of the places people recommended to be lousy. Their taste and ours were very different. The same is true in reading material.

I would especially not trust the recommendations of where to eat that you pick up on a site featuring 'diaper', 'crap' and 'watersport' fetishes! Shudders!

Replies:   REP
Crumbly Writer

@REP

The same thing applies to your post to CW. What you are addressing is how readers find the story. You are assuming the readers will like the story and give it a higher rating and that is not true in all cases.

I never (at least initially, until everyone started jumping up and down on individual word choices) suggested that more readers equals higher scores. Instead I kept insisting that 'stories eventually find their intended audiences', meaning that, over time, the people who like a particular story will discover it, and the scores—from those readers—will tend to boost the story. However, a shitty story will remain a shitty story, and even the shitty-story fans won't be able to save it from the poor scores from everyone else.

I must say, whenever I try to describe the discussions we get bogged down and waste weeks of time arguing about here, no one can believe that ANYONE, much less authors whose sole job is to convince people of ideas and concepts, would waste their time arguing about such unimportant things of isolated misapplied words.

Replies:   JohnBobMead  Dominions Son  REP
JohnBobMead

@Crumbly Writer

I must say, whenever I try to describe the discussions we get bogged down and waste weeks of time arguing about here, no one can believe that ANYONE, much less authors whose sole job is to convince people of ideas and concepts, would waste their time arguing about such unimportant things of isolated misapplied words.

This is where you get to exorcise that aspect of your personality, so it _doesn't_ show up in your published work. It's a safety valve.

Dominions Son

@Crumbly Writer

no one can believe that ANYONE, much less authors whose sole job is to convince people of ideas and concepts


I can't speak for anyone else, but my job is writing software.

I write fiction which isn't trying to convince anyone of anything for shits and giggles.

REP

@Crumbly Writer

the recommendations of where to eat that you pick up on a site featuring 'diaper', 'crap' and 'watersport' fetishes! Shudders!


Nor would I. Ours came from friends and business associates.

REP

@Crumbly Writer

ANYONE, much less authors whose sole job is to convince people of ideas and concepts, would waste their time arguing about such unimportant things of isolated misapplied words.


Unless of course the reader of that isolated word feels in has a significant bearing on the idea or concept.

Replies:   Crumbly Writer
richardshagrin

There is another way an out of date story gets mentioned to potential readers. At the end of stories there is an opportunity to click on "similarly tagged stories" which normally brings up a listing of about ten other stories by different authors that are supposed to be coded the same way as the story just read. Once in a while there aren't any stories listed, which probably means the author of the story you just read is unique, and no other author has posted a similarly tagged story on SOL. But that is rare. I have no idea how the decision is made to recommend which stories, but there seems to me to be a method that tends to recommend the same stories and authors over and over again. Still its a reasonable way to find a story that might be like the story you just read.

The other less often highlighted method to find stories that aren't featured on the front page or top 50 lists is to look at what the author recommends on his favorites list. I wish more authors would list favorites, or update their listing occasionally. Sometimes before I start reading stories by a new (to me) author I check what stories he recommends. There is a decent chance if I like the stories he likes, I will like his stories.

Please note "he" and "his" include she and her for authors without a Y chromosome. There are a lot of excellent stories by female authors. One way to broaden your reading horizons is to find their stories, although you can't always tell by the authors name. I wonder if it would be worth have in tag for that? Another interesting approach would be to have a tag to help find stories with female main characters. I guess they wouldn't be heroes, and there is a chance heroine would be construed as the drug.

Replies:   Crumbly Writer
helmut_meukel

@REP

My wife and I learned to not trust other people's recommendations for places to eat. We found most of the places people recommended to be lousy. Their taste and ours were very different.


Those recommandations are always problematic, especially when the timespan between their visit and the recommendation is several weeks or months.
Much could have happened: changes in staff or ownwership or just concept.
I remember one place in Kaltenkirchen (small town northwest of Hamburg) I was driving northward to Denmark when I found this steakhouse and I reccomended it to friends. Two years later I was there again, new owner, slight changes in menu, still ok. Next year same owner totally changed menu - no steaks anymore. :( Two years later, the building still there, but closed.

Another example is the decline of "Little Chef" in GB.

HM.

sejintenej

@REP

That is true in some cases, but 'word of mouth' advertising is not to be trusted.

My wife and I learned to not trust other people's recommendations for places to eat. We found most of the places people recommended to be lousy. Their taste and ours were very different.


A little care is necessary. there is a major international burger company with branches in England and France. I will no longer go near the UK branches because the quality is abysmal but in France the branches are excellent.

One author (I think Dual Writer) in his stories mentions cooking named dishes which I had never heard of; Googling the name for recipes I have added several dishes to my repetoire so there can be positives

Crumbly Writer

@REP

Unless of course the reader of that isolated word feels in has a significant bearing on the idea or concept.

Oh, don't get me wrong. As authors, we all care very deeply about the importance of words, concepts and presentation. However, what I was saying is that the outside world simply can't grasp just how much effort we waste on something with so little actual application to the wider world. After all, it's not like this is a major source of income for any of us, and even though it's an important hobby for us, it's our published efforts that generate the praise, not the online discussions about the minutia of writing.

Sometimes I just need a gentle reminder that, although it seems monumental at the time, these too will pass, quietly into the night, to mix my literary metaphors.

Replies:   REP
Crumbly Writer

@richardshagrin

I have no idea how the decision is made to recommend which stories, but there seems to me to be a method that tends to recommend the same stories and authors over and over again.

The 'Similar Stories' is based entirely on story codes. Thus, if you write most of your stories along a similar line, those related stories will most likely show at least a few of your own stories—especially if there are any sequels. Otherwise, it'll show those which aren't too far off the mark. Unfortunately, I don't believe it takes the score or total number of downloads into account to adjust for the quality or popularity of the writing.

Please note "he" and "his" include she and her for authors without a Y chromosome.

Or a couple of them. I recall that, for those who have more than two sex-based chromosomes, it only takes two X's to be classified as female, though there are also several XYX males who are thoroughly cisgendered, even with two X chromosomes. In the case of multiple chromosomes (which is much more common than is commonly believed) it's a matter of the predominant chromosomes.

Replies:   Geek of Ages
Geek of Ages

@Crumbly Writer

There are XY females. See, for instance, androgen insensitivity syndrome

Replies:   Crumbly Writer  Not_a_ID
Crumbly Writer

@Geek of Ages

There are XY females. See, for instance, androgen insensitivity syndrome

It's no longer a simple two-chromosome world. Simple answers formed in a world without any conflicting evidence are falling before actual experimental data. Just as gays are not an 'abomination before God', so too is one's sex not determined by whether or not they have a "Y" in their chromosome.

REP

@Crumbly Writer

although it seems monumental at the time, these too will pass, quietly into the night, to mix my literary metaphors.


Or as my wife tells me from time to time about the Forum - "You are just a bunch of grumpy old men who like to argue with each other over things that don't matter." :)

Replies:   Crumbly Writer
richardshagrin

@Crumbly Writer

It's no longer a simple two-chromosome world.

See Turner syndrome.

Not_a_ID
Updated:

@Geek of Ages


Just as gays are not an 'abomination before God', so too is one's sex not determined by whether or not they have a "Y" in their chromosome.


However, that "Y" chromosome is critical for someone to be "reproductively viable" as a male by natural means. ( there are laboratory tests that, IIRC, have already artificially grown viable testes for mice.. Of course, ours has a vascular system as part of it, the mice evidently don't, which made things much easier)

Of course, there also is a specific (very exceedingly rare) instance of a certain gene sequence presenting and being activated on the X chromosome which will cause the fetus to grow a penis even though they're XX. Those unlucky ones are sterile for life though.

Edit: Although I'm also inclined to think many have gone overboard on the inclusion of such things. (Not speaking to anything seen on SOL, but rather elsewhere) Where medically validated situations, which are held to have odds of happening of 1 in ten(s of thousands) or even hundreds of thousands seems to become more common than the lifetime risk of contracting some form of (any) cancer.

Not that having a non-standard gender expression is like having cancer, but seriously. When you set a story in say a high school with a student population of a few hundred people, odds are there would only be 1 person in the entire school with one of those "conditions"(for lack of another term) at most, with none being far more likely. Of course, "Clustering" can happen, either purely by chance(like the people who get zapped by lightning on multiple different occasions), or design(support groups). But baring an outside factor artificially creating the situation(hi author), the odds of a 600 person (generic, high school) student body producing over a half-dozen trans/intersexed persons with known genetic/chromosomal triggers is probably worse than Crumbly's odds of winning Wednesday's Power Ball drawing should he buy/obtain a ticket.(Meanwhile the odds of a dozen or more students contracting a form of cancer in their lifetime is rather significant)

Just because certain venues/places make it possible to meet dozens of such (alleged) persons in one go doesn't mean such things are particularly common in the population at large.

Replies:   Crumbly Writer
robberhands

@Crumbly Writer

Just as gays are not an 'abomination before God', so too is one's sex not determined by whether or not they have a "Y" in their chromosome.

I think the comparison between 'God's will' and dna-strands or genes is a bit problematic, to say the least.

Crumbly Writer

@REP

Or as my wife tells me from time to time about the Forum - "You are just a bunch of grumpy old men who like to argue with each other over things that don't matter." :)

Yep, she's got your number! 'D

Crumbly Writer

@Not_a_ID

Where medically validated situations, which are held to have odds of happening of 1 in ten(s of thousands) or even hundreds of thousands seems to become more common than the lifetime risk of contracting some form of (any) cancer.

You're quoting some very OLD studies. Recent studies (from say the last ten years) shows the number of multiple chromosome individuals (XXY, XYX, YXX, etc.) is much higher than ever previously guessed. That's because, as usually happens, they used to base their estimates on 'medical cases' (i.e. someone either has significant medical issues it gets shoved to the research department of major hospitals and someone writes articles about it in the medical journals.

That was also where the assumptions that being "gay" was a mental disorder, because the only people the medical establishment ever encountered were disturbed for other reasons, and only happened to be gay.

Now, however, with DNA sequencing being largely automated and producing relatively quick turnaround, they're discovering much more variability in sexual chromosomes. This includes multiple cases where certain 'parts' of a person's body will have a completely different DNA structure, so they might have twenty DNA tests, see nothing, but someone will draw blood from someplace unusual, and suddenly they're classified as a different sex! (By the way, that's thought to be the result of the egg splitting into two individuals, and then 'refolding' back into one, with part shunted off to the side by the predominant DNA.

With more and more kids coming forward, acknowledging that they're trans, the odds of running across one in most schools is definitely on the rise. It's certainly nowhere near 1%, but many high schools will have at least one and sometimes several openly trans students (while the others will be 'in the closet' about it, or only discover it later as adults).

@robberhands

I think the comparison between 'God's will' and dna-strands or genes is a bit problematic, to say the least.

That's why Einstein stated "God doesn't play dice with the universe". Instead, the mechanics are set up, and they unfold according to a specific set of rules, although they occur seemingly randomly.

robberhands

@Crumbly Writer

That's why Einstein stated "God doesn't play dice with the universe". Instead, the mechanics are set up, and they unfold according to a specific set of rules, although they occur seemingly randomly.

Astonishing enough, I find it much easier to agree with Einstein's quoted sentiment.

awnlee jawking

@Crumbly Writer

That's why Einstein stated "God doesn't play dice with the universe".


Einstein was expressing his conviction that Quantum Mechanics was misguided.

AJ

Replies:   Dominions Son
Dominions Son

@Crumbly Writer

This includes multiple cases where certain 'parts' of a person's body will have a completely different DNA structure


This occurs due to fraternal twins where the fetuses merged completely, creating a human chimera.

It's the same basic process that creates conjoined twins, but in the case of a chimera, the process goes on long enough for a complete merger leaving a single fetus.

Dominions Son

@awnlee jawking

Einstein was expressing his conviction that Quantum Mechanics was misguided.


Quantum uncertainty is largely the result of the fact that we can't observe processes at that scale without altering the outcomes.

That does not mean that those unobservable processes aren't guided by complex but still deterministic rules.

Replies:   Geek of Ages
Geek of Ages

@Dominions Son

It also doesn't mean that they are.

Replies:   Dominions Son
Dominions Son

@Geek of Ages

It also doesn't mean that they are.


True.

Not_a_ID

@Crumbly Writer

You're quoting some very OLD studies. Recent studies (from say the last ten years) shows the number of multiple chromosome individuals (XXY, XYX, YXX, etc.) is much higher than ever previously guessed. That's because, as usually happens, they used to base their estimates on 'medical cases' (i.e. someone either has significant medical issues it gets shoved to the research department of major hospitals and someone writes articles about it in the medical journals.


I'm going largely by numbers cited on Wikipedia and it referred sources when I looked into it about a year ago. I would generally agree, the incidence rate is likely to be under-reported at this point, so the bias could be off by whole orders of magnitude. (Or even discover new anomalies) But I'd still highly doubt an estimated 1 in 650,000 chance from 2010 is going to be discovered as being 1 in 400 by 2040. Which is almost what would have to happen to come up with the numbers some people use in their stories dealing in it.

That was also where the assumptions that being "gay" was a mental disorder, because the only people the medical establishment ever encountered were disturbed for other reasons, and only happened to be gay.


...Or violent sex offenders and use of porn, or violent crimals/mass shooters and "violent video games." I know, correlation, sans causation, even if they appear closely related. (Because they probably are, just not in that way)

toolman4243

If i want to read a sex story i would probably go to Lit..o...a,i go to SOL for the great stories.Unfortunately
more and more of the best writers are disappearing on this
site either to health issues,so called muse problems orjust
plain old real life issues.

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