Forum: Story Discussion and Feedback

Was the story complete, in progress, or incomplete and inactive?

another post truncated - wonder why it happens. edit and try again.

it's complete and finished. I chose not to read it because I couldn't see how they got so many sex acts in and still have a worthwhile amount of plot development, and I also wondered about the claim of being minimal sex with all that action.

I will second Earnest. Think before you tag.

In a case of that many tags, I immediately think: 'tag, then release'! 'D

the tags were established for sex stories. To force them into no-sex stories will only cause problems.

Switch, what you say is true for the initial set of tags, but the system has evolved a hell of a lot since then, and now includes many tags and other identifiers which have nothing to do with sex. Now there are 3 types of identifies which includes 14 groups of tags of 179 tags, with over 50 tags that have nothing to do with sexual activity, and a few that can go either way. 5 levels of sexual content from no sex to stroke. 25 genres of which only 4 require sexual activity. Thus there's plenty of scope for no sex stories with a lot more detail available for the sex stories.

That's a valid point. I probably need to change the main tag for my story to Some Sex.

I agree that it is difficult to determine the best Sex Content rating to apply.

My opinion of The Tag and Sex Content Definitions document's definitions is the definitions use terms that are highly subjective; an observation not a complaint. I have tried to come up with a less subjective way to quantify the level of sexual content and it is difficult to do. The only thing I could think of is to determine a ratio or percentage of sexual activity versus non-sexual activity. The two main problems with doing that are: 1) How to do it in a relatively simple manner, and 2) the method will only work on stories that are completed before the Author starts posting. Which basically puts me back to where we are. So unless someone has a good idea of how to quantify the amount of sex in a story, we will have to rely on our best guess as to the proper level of sexual content.

I think I probably ought to make it Some Sex, though.

I think of it as a sliding scale of percentages based on the number of words in sex scenes as a percentage of the whole story. A rough idea would be (mind you it's not fixed as I keep forgetting the numbers)

75% plus -Stroke
50 to 75% - Much Sex
25 to 50% - Some Sex
1 to 25% - Minimal Sex
0% - No Sex

So a 100,000 word story with 20,000 words in sex scenes would be Minimal sex - that's the total amount of words used in the scenes; i.e. what would be lost if all the sex scenes were removed from the story.

Those numbers do seem really far off.

That seems like a lot for "minimal". I'd call anything more than 10% not minimal...

And if half of a 100k word story was sex scenes, I'd call it a stroke story.

Those numbers do seem really far off.

I'm prepared to give others some leeway. Mind you, most of mys stories are no sex with the bulk of the rest being in the much sex category, because I seem to have either none or a lot in the stories.

I think of it as a sliding scale of percentages based on the number of words in sex scenes as a percentage of the whole story.

That seems like a good scale, but difficult to use.

You select the sex content value when you start posting the story. If you start posting before you finish the story, you don't have good numbers to use in the calculation to determine percentage.

Furthermore, I may just be lazy but there is no way that I am going through my story and count the words in the sex scenes especially if it has extensive sexual content but less than a stroke story. Estimating the percentage is no better than just picking the most likely rating based on your gut feel.

You select the sex content value when you start posting the story. If you start posting before you finish the story, you don't have good numbers to use in the calculation to determine percentage.

Furthermore, I may just be lazy but there is no way that I am going through my story and count the words in the sex scenes especially if it has extensive sexual content but less than a stroke story. Estimating the percentage is no better than just picking the most likely rating based on your gut feel.

you don't have to count the words, and it doesn't have to be exact. However, when you read a story right through you can get a good idea of how much the sex scenes make up the story to be close enough to make a decision.

The thing is to either finish the story before you post, or to decide how much sex will be in the story before you start writing it.

I would hope there would be a method for the writer to change that setting at least after finishing the story.

at any time the author can change any of the codes and other identifiers related to the story, the capability is part of the author stats page.

Well a possible solution for writers who post as they write instead of after a story is complete. Would be to make those adjustments a part of uploading new chapters.

Doc, That has one downfall - if they don't give an indication at the start something is coming down the pipeline and then they include something that squicks someone, then all hell breaks loose.

The lowest score I've ever given was for a story that did not code for torture and extreme bdsm, so when it turned up after 20 plus chapters I dumped the story, scored it low, and marked that author as to never read again. If he'd coded right in the first place I would never have started the story, but his choice of not coding those items means I have no trust in what he writes. Last I checked that story wasn't properly coded yet, but that was several months ago.

A little note in the description saying codes are subject to change. Should cover most of the potential changes.

Some authors do that, but it simply shows they don't want to tell you up front or they don't really know what's going to happen - either means a bad situation for a reader.

1 to 25% - Minimal Sex

Well, then I'll just leave it alone. Went through the first 97,918 words and ended up with just over 4,200. So that's a whopping 4%. Since right now my story is just under 400,000 words, I guess it really was minimal sex.

Also - man, those first dozen or so chapters. What's the usual thing on doing a re-write? I know I'm going to do that - in going through it again, I'm amazed anyone read it in the first place. I also noticed something I did - part way through, I changed tense, and didn't even realize it. I was writing in present tense early on (I open the door) and somewhere in the middle, I switched. (I opened the door.)

Yeah, oops.

That's DEFINITELY a re-write. The question is - stop where it is, re-write and re-post, then finish it, or finish it, let it sit while I'm re-writing it, THEN re-post. I'm thinking finish it, but again, I'm curious as to your thoughts.

I would say that if the story itself is not going to change then finish prior to starting the rewrite.

There's going to be some changes to the first few chapters. But I think I'm leaning towards what you talk about, simply because the most re-working is in the first, oh, 50,000 words or so. And with the most recent chapter that I'll post this Thursday, I'm at 400,000 words.

Yeah, I think finish it first. :)

I also noticed something I did - part way through, I changed tense, and didn't even realize it. I was writing in present tense early on (I open the door) and somewhere in the middle, I switched. (I opened the door.)

Yeah, oops.

That's not at all uncommon, especially for newbies who haven't yet identified their particular writing style. They only settle in to what suits them mid-way through a story, often 15 or 20 chapters in.

That's DEFINITELY a re-write. The question is - stop where it is, re-write and re-post, then finish it, or finish it, let it sit while I'm re-writing it, THEN re-post. I'm thinking finish it, but again, I'm curious as to your thoughts.

Just like I prefer writing the entire story out before I start revising (and then post), I'd complete the story, revise it and then rerelease it so readers know it's changed. (Just a word of warning, though, don't announce a rewrite unless the plot changes, as few readers will even noticed things like tense or style changes.)

The key is, you write while the muse is whispering in your ear. You don't stop and edit midstream, or else you'll miss your muses musings, and she'll get bored and head on to the next clown the next story over.

That's DEFINITELY a re-write. The question is - stop where it is, re-write and re-post, then finish it, or finish it, let it sit while I'm re-writing it, THEN re-post. I'm thinking finish it, but again, I'm curious as to your thoughts.

Only once have I done a rewrite on a story in mid-post, and that was because I took over a story at the other author's request. I rewrote what was there, and then continued the story from that point.

My preference is to finish a story before I post it, so i can be sure of what to say in the story description.

My preference is to finish a story before I post it, so i can be sure of what to say in the story description.

Yep, we've had this discussion over in the author's forum. Probably (almost certainly) for the second story I write to post on here, I'll end up doing that. I truly had no idea what I was letting myself in for when I started this thing.

I made the same mistake on my first story, writing before finishing and not having my story even outlined fully. I think it's the classic first time writers mistake.

I made the same mistake on my first story, writing before finishing and not having my story even outlined fully. I think it's the classic first time writers mistake.

You don't need a story fully outlined, but you should have the story arc set in your mind, otherwise the story is likely to wander, drifting without a final destination in mind. Stories need a steady movement from beginning to end. Knowing where you're heading is what keeps the story on track. Knowing how the story ends also allows you to cut the useless crap in the story.

Yep, we've had this discussion over in the author's forum. Probably (almost certainly) for the second story I write to post on here, I'll end up doing that. I truly had no idea what I was letting myself in for when I started this thing.

Those of us who finish before we post are definitely in the minority here. Most, especially newbie authors, want to start posting immediately to see what the public perception of the story is.

One should not set a specific limit as to what constitutes an excessive number of tags.

Rather the number of tags on a story should be judged in light of several factors.

Rather, readers need to rate authors by their tags, as well as their stories. If authors with dozens of tags get low ratings, maybe they'll get the message and simplify the story to something relatively believable?

Tags are similar to story descriptions in that matter. If an author's story description contains multiple typos, you know not to read the story. If the story contains dozens of contradictory tags (romantic war?, romantic lesbian rape?), I'd also reject the story as an unfocused mess.

Many new authors write in a stream of consciousness method, where they try to include everything they can in a story.

That said, I have to quibble with one of your examples. What's contradictory about romance and war?

There's no problem is the story premise clearly explains it, but otherwise, the tags just reveal a lack of focus by the author, where the author is just trying to check off every single sexual kink he can think of, rather than sticking to an underlying plot which unifies the various story elements.

Tags are like a story description, they reveal both what's in the story, and how well written the story is.

One observation to those who caution against this practice is that most of the Authors who are guilty of excessive tags probably do not participate in the Forum. So for the most part, we are preaching to the choir.

True, but there are many authors who don't participate in the forum threads, while they do read them.

while they do read them.

I classify reading posts as participation

I think the amount of sex to qualify has to actually describe sex. If a story only said "they had sex", I think it might even qualify as no sex.

I have a story coming up where characters have sex, but the scene "fades to black" just before the action starts and picks up just after, so, like with prime time television, you don't 'see' anything. I'm going to label it no sex.

In that stories case, I'm going to tag:

No Sex
Crime, Mystery, Violent

How do you tag the story, though? Some Authors tag sex scenes that are only spoken of and never "shown".

https://storiesonline.net/author/posting_guidelines.php

Precise coding is also important. Excessive coding is bad. If something is mentioned in the story but not described, then it shouldn't coded for. Anything that happens offscreen shouldn't be coded for. For example, if a woman gets raped, and the story doesn't contain the rape scene, only a mention that the woman was raped, then the story doesn't need the 'Rape' code.

Anything that happens offscreen shouldn't be coded for. For example, if a woman gets raped, and the story doesn't contain the rape scene, only a mention that the woman was raped, then the story doesn't need the 'Rape' code.

As Ernest mentioned earlier, most tags are specifically for sex scenes. You don't include the "Oriental" tag if you have someone who's Chinese in the story, only if you're describing a particular sexual kink. The same is true for violence and rape. If it happens, but isn't described in the story, then the codes DON'T apply. Otherwise, those looking to feed their rape fetish are going to be pissed! 'D

I think the amount of sex to qualify has to actually describe sex. If a story only said "they had sex", I think it might even qualify as no sex.

I agree, it has to be a graphic sex scene. Fine Stories has a no sex rule, but you can usually get away with saying someone had sex as long as you don't describe it.

I agree, it has to be a graphic sex scene. Fine Stories has a no sex rule, but you can usually get away with saying someone had sex as long as you don't describe it.

I included a story on Fine Stories with a major theme of a romantic incest element between a brother and sister. Rather than focus on sex, I instead focused on the build-ups and after-effects.

Rather than focus on sex, I instead focused on the build-ups and after-effects.

Which is a romance without the graphic sex scenes, and thus no sex. Well, that's my view if there are no graphic sex scenes.

Which is a romance without the graphic sex scenes, and thus no sex. Well, that's my view if there are no graphic sex scenes.

Granted, but given the limitations of FineStories, that's how you incorporate sex into the story, you deal openly with the sexual relationship, but hide the actual sex acts. There's no reason adult stories can't be posted to FS, it just takes a little more finesse.

romance is not an adult story

You however can turn an adult story (well, some adult stories) into PG-13 stories, if there is enough non-sex plot available to work with.

A PG-13 romance is not an adult story.

Adult stories don't require explicit sex acts. What they do require are adult themes, addressed somewhat believably. That's what I was getting at. You can address issues like rape, abuse and violence without showing it happening on the page. Instead, you focus on the build-up and the aftermath.

It won't be the same story you post on SOL, but it can still stand on it's own legs. It just takes a bit more planning than most are willing to expend.

Ernest's percent list

Those are just my rough estimates I recommend as a guide - there is no exact figure or measure I can find on SoL.

The thing is, many readers don't bother reading stories they think will be overloaded with sex scenes, so you need to get as close as you can to encourage readers.

I'll definitely avoid the "Overloaded With Sex Scenes" tag, that would be bad advertisement. On the other hand I try to avoid puritan readers as well and they should avoid my story, they would not enjoy it.

I you have a basic plot (other than 'MC fucks everyone he meets') then "Some Sex" may be your best (safest) option.

It might be a report or it might be porn, but if you read something without a plot, it's not a story. The tags attached to a story generate expectations beyond word counts or the number of sex scenes. When I see the "Much sex" tag I expect the sex is plenty but more than that. I expect the sex to be a driving force behind the motivation of the characters acting in the story, not just a pleasurable secondary effect because people are in love, get payed for it or for whatever reason there is. If you skip the sex scenes of such a story it is useless to read it, because the story ceases to make any sense without them. In most of the story I have read with the "Minimal Sex" or "Some Sex" tags you can skip the sex scenes and read on without a problem. That's the main reason why I kept the "Much Sex" tag. That and because no one complaint about it.

Whoa, whoa! Where is this coming from? Are you still talking about tags, or my comments about dealing with adult situations in stories posted to FineStories?

Obviously, no one is going to post a Much Sex story on FineStories. My only comment about the tags is that I wouldn't follow Ernest's strict word-count guideline, instead focusing on how much explicit sex is in each chapter. Even if the characters are doing other things (plot related) if they're engaging in sex with all new partners every single chapter, then that's still likely to be a "Much Sex" story.

Not exactly sure what you were trying to express. Did I scare you? That wasn't my intention. I also don't know anything about your comments on FineStories.

I was just caught off guard, as you seemed to be coming after me for making the same point you were.

I wasn't trying to shut you up, just hoping to get additional information.

The thing is, many readers don't bother reading stories they think will be overloaded with sex scenes, so you need to get as close as you can to encourage readers.

Not to mention, those expecting "much sex" will bail quickly if there isn't sex in virtually every single chapter. Accurate coding is essential, though I'd be cautious about Ernest's word count index. I'd instead base it on chapter count, how many chapters include sex and how many don't.

I wasn't sure how to tag the amount of sex in my story, and I'm still not.

Ernest's approach using percentages is good, but personally, I tend to have difficulty implementing that in a non-subjective manner.

I am considering a different and less subjective method that can be used by those who complete their story before posting and by those who do a detailed outline of the story if they start posting before they complete the writing.

I am thinking of counting the number of sexual encounters during the sex scenes in a story and dividing that by the number of chapters to determine level of sexual content. That should be relatively easy to do. By sexual encounter I mean two people engaged in sexual intercourse from start to finish of a specific scene. If the scene involves more than two people, then I would consider sexual activity between each pair of people during the period to be a separate encounter even if they are all together in one bed.

For example, a threesome where each person engages in sexual activity with the other two parties would count as 3 encounters. For a foursome, that could be up to 6 encounters.

Each of us can assign a value for Average Encounters per Chapter. The story length (i.e., word count) would also enter into the value used but I haven't addressed that yet. I'm thinking of something like the following based on a short to medium story length:

Average Encounters per Chapter:
1. Stroke Story – 5 or more
2. Much Sex – 3 or more and less than 5
3. Some Sex – 1 or more and less than 3
4. Minimal Sex – greater than 0 and less than 1
5. No Sex – 0

Average Encounters per Chapter:

That would depend on how long you set for a chapter. My chapters, as posted on SoL, average between 8,000 to 12,000 words while most of what I see by other authors varies anywhere from about 500 words to 5,000 words per chapter. 5 sex encounters in 10,000 words isn't that high, while 1 per 500 words is is.

That would depend on how long you set for a chapter.

Yes that would be a way to work in the word count I mentioned.

For example, a threesome where each person engages in sexual activity with the other two parties would count as 3 encounters. For a foursome, that could be up to 6 encounters.

You're overthinking it. A sexual encounter is a sexual encounter, regardless of the number of participants.

I'd go with the number of chapters with any sexual encounter.
1. Stroke Story - 80 to 90%
2. Much Sex - 60 to 80%
3. Some Sex - 25 to 60%
4. Minimal Sex - Somewhere between one and three sex scenes in the entire story.

Tags should be used wisely. If a lot of the level plus the sub-level tags are used. Wouldn't it be simpler to just use the main tag instead of the majority if not all of the rest of that sub-grouping. The main tag includes all the sub-levels I would think.

How about adding a new tag 'everything imaginable', that way, rather than listing 30 separate tags, you could simply list one that announces that 'anything goes' and the story is a race to include every squick they can identify?

I feel that happens in many incest stories. When I read those stories, I want to feel the uniqueness, about how the people are outside of the social norm, but often the stories degrade into 'everyone is doing it with everyone in their families and we're only now catching on to what was obvious to everyone else all this time'. It takes away the entire appeal of the genre for me. If something isn't forbidden, then why dwell on it?

If its just brother and sister for example the incest tag isn't really needed since that is definitely implied using the brother and sister tags. Use the incest tag when the number of relationships take up almost the entire sub group for the category, instead of listing each individual relationship.

Wouldn't that compromise searches using the 'incest' tag?

AJ

Wouldn't that compromise searches using the 'incest' tag?

As an alternative (related to my earlier suggestion) we could start a new "family" tag, which designates stories featuring 'family incest', so authors wouldn't have to list each individual act of incest.

It would be similar to the 'harem' tag, signally a serial incestuous relationship where the MC targets one family member after another in a seemingly endless progression.

we could start a new "family" tag

Doesn't incest mean with "family" members? The additional tags only define the relationship of the people involved in the incestuous relationship to aid the reader in determining if the incestuous relationship is what they are interested in. Example: a reader could by interested in brother-sister sex, but find mother-son relationships objectionable.

Doesn't incest mean with "family" members?

Duh! Of course, but that wasn't the objective. I was suggesting it as an alternative to listing twelve separate "incest" codes to stipulate "every conceivable incest code in a single story".

The entire discussion here isn't what defines incest, but rather how to control the inaccurate overuse of inappropriate tags. Listing six or eight tags to flag the same type of story seems excessive, when a single tag doing the same seems to make sense.

If you want to be proper then make the tag "family incest", which means the protagonist has sex with everyone in the family, rather than listing each individual variation, one after another. That's like listing each individual sex act in a 100 chapter story. If there's that much sex, then simply list it as "Much Sex" or "Stroke" instead of telling us what's found in every single chapter.

. I was suggesting it as an alternative to listing twelve separate "incest" codes to stipulate "every conceivable incest code in a single story

If you missed it, "incest" is one of the selections.

@Lazeez

In the suggestions I sent you, ignore deleting the options like 'incest' that I mentioned.

If you missed it, "incest" is one of the selections.

I don't know what's up, but today you seem to keep coming in late to the conversation and stating the obvious without regard to what's already been posted.

I was responding to a post suggesting that authors use the tag "Incest" rather than listing each individual incest offense, but someone objected that someone searching for "incest" stories might miss stories which didn't use that tag. Thus I suggested an alternate catch-all tag, rather than the already used "incest".

But like most of my posts you've jumped on today, it wasn't a serious post, as I never believed any of these offerings would be accepted by most readers. Instead, I was simply posting them as alternatives to determine whether there's any pressing need which needs addressing. After all, if no one is going to use the existing tags correctly, then why post more to only confuse the already overwhelmed posters?

Sidebar, my old Angie Dickenson/Rachael Welch were definitely overwhelmed posters, as I used to stare at them all the time! 'D

but today you seem to keep coming in late to the conversation and stating the obvious without regard to what's already been posted.

Like you, I'm not on the Form constantly. I have other things to do. Like you, I respond to the posts as I read them. If subsequent posts address the issues then I'm not aware of it until I get to the post, and lately there have been a large number of posts in some threads.

And anybody who objects to any kind of incest can exclude one tag and be done with it.

Is that automatic, meaning, if the author doesn't include the generic incest tag (as has been suggested here) that wouldn't work, right (meaning the "incest" tag is required as long as any incest takes place in the story.