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Island Mine -- A Sequel

Jim S

I was just using the Random Story feature when Island Mine came up as one of the selections. That got me thinking. If Refusnik wrote a sequel for Island Mine, what direction would a reader (such as myself) like it to take? So I pose this question to the board. What would be your suggestions? In other words, what would you like to see in it?

Myself, I think there are three potential conflicts/situations that offer huge potential. The first is the rebuilding of his body. What capabilities did it leave him? Is he improved or degraded? Is his mental ability improved or degraded? What about his personality? How does it change? Or even does it change?

The second situation is Merilee Walker's death. Just how does it effect him given how deeply he felt for her. For that matter, does the death of his friends warp him or strengthen him?

A third is how the US pursues him. Given the return of Captain (now Admiral) Walker to active duty, just how much can the US discover/screw up/affect what Waylon Eckermann does and/or how he proceeds to do it.

Thats just a couple of large ones off the top of my head. And, certainly, not the only ones.

Anyone else?

And if you haven't read it yet, I sure do urge you to. And sorry for the spoilers above but I couldn't think of a way to avoid it.

Replies:   REP  Oyster
REP

@Jim S

sorry for the spoilers above

Which raises the question of which is more important in a story - the journey or reaching the destination.

Oyster

@Jim S

Since Waylon and the AIs have removed themselves from humanity and established a base on Mars a sequel would be very different from the first book.
Waylon has absolutely no ties to Earth (save for the surviving Truong) and has made it absolutely clear that he has no intentions to get involved there (or rather that he has had enough of humanity).

A sequel would have to be about how Earth deals with Waylon's actions and/or a delegation sent to Mars.
The problem with that is what comes next and is it really a story that needs to be told?

Replies:   shinerdrinker
shinerdrinker

@Oyster

I wrote a blog about this on my page a while back, but here is the gist of it...

Now I remember reading about some folks wanting a second story to follow up on what happens next. I can understand the feeling of wanting more from the story. Does the AI Chief follow Waylon's orders and visit Arman in Tahiti and bond with the man. Or does he just watch over the family and protect him, like his mother believed the island did for her. Will newly promoted Admiral Arnold ever have an opportunity to speak with Waylon while he is on Mars? Or maybe even does Waylon ever speak with humans again?

Many questions. But do you really want a sequel for a nearly perfect story. It is a question I end up contemplating every time I finish re-reading the story. I still don't really have an answer, but then again, I smile and realize I can be happy with just the one story.

Thanks Refusenik. From the bottom of my heart, I can only give one compliment. I wish I had written this story.


That's how I felt about it then and if anything the feelings I have about that story have not wavered one iota.

Replies:   Wheezer
Wheezer
Updated:

@shinerdrinker


Many questions. But do you really want a sequel for a nearly perfect story. It is a question I end up contemplating every time I finish re-reading the story. I still don't really have an answer, but then again, I smile and realize I can be happy with just the one story.


Harry Potter & the Sorcerer's/Philosopher's Stone was a pretty damn near perfect story that didn't need any sequels. It stands on it's own quite well, but Rowling managed to write another excellent story for every year Harry was in school.

Yes, Island Mine was a great story. It does not mean that Refusenik could not write another story or three in that universe if he found a story to tell. I believe his name may provide the answer. It's not so much that he can't, but he won't.

Replies:   Crumbly Writer
Crumbly Writer

@Wheezer

Harry Potter & the Sorcerer's/Philosopher's Stone was a pretty damn near perfect story that didn't need any sequels. It stands on it's own quite well, but Rowling managed to write another excellent story for every year Harry was in school.

Except, J.K. Rawling didn't write seven stories, one after another. Instead, she had a vision of Harry's story evolving over his years in Hogworth's, thus the series should be seen as a whole, not as a string of individual stories. Thus, any question of sequels would be over any stories that come after the Hogworth's series.

However, as someone who's written many stories that I considered 'finished', I can relate when readers request sequels and authors just can't figure out how to arrange it. Hell, I've killed off a few main characters, yet readers still demand sequels.

Trust me, if an author kills off a character, they never imagined writing sequels. They may still create one, but only after they figure out a way to pull it off effectively, not based on reader demands (most of my sequels were written well after the story concluded, when an idea for a whole new 'sequel' suddenly occurred to me). I also had a sequel to my first story, "The Catalyst", long requested, that I never completed. I felt it would have satisfied those requesting a sequel, and provides an alternative 'happy ending', but I just didn't feel it 'fit' the original story. :(

Replies:   REP  Wheezer
REP

@Crumbly Writer

I can relate when readers request sequels


They probably have in mind something like a sequel on a different topic that parallels the timeframe of an existing story.

Replies:   Crumbly Writer
Wheezer

@Crumbly Writer

Except, J.K. Rawling didn't write seven stories, one after another. Instead, she had a vision of Harry's story evolving over his years in Hogworth's, thus the series should be seen as a whole, not as a string of individual stories. Thus, any question of sequels would be over any stories that come after the Hogworth's series.

Yes, Rowlings planned the entire series. My point was that she wanted to write a series. Refusenik apparently does not want to write more on that story, even though at least a few of his fans feel that there is more story he could tell. In fact, Refusenik has dropped off the scene. I was told that he was deeply involved in a business venture that took all his time and he had set aside any efforts to write.

Replies:   Jim S  Crumbly Writer
Jim S

@Wheezer

Refusenik apparently does not want to write more on that story, even though at least a few of his fans feel that there is more story he could tell. In fact, Refusenik has dropped off the scene. I was told that he was deeply involved in a business venture that took all his time and he had set aside any efforts to write.


All true. But I can't help escape the feeling that he left enough at the end of the story so that it could continue if he so chooses. And thats the rub. Its all up to him really. All that I'm saying is that I hope he so chooses.

Replies:   REP
Crumbly Writer
Updated:

@REP


They probably have in mind something like a sequel on a different topic that parallels the timeframe of an existing story.


In one case, "Singularity", they wanted to know what happened to everyone who came after the MC who died ("passed on to a higher plain" is a more fitting term in that case).

While that would be worth exploring, it would only amount to three to five short chapters, rather than a full novel, so I never pursued it (though I still might someday). But then again, I'm still considering "Passing the Torch", my final sequel to "Catalyst".

Sorry about the off-site link, boss man, but I thought it appropriate, even though the story isn't available anywhere yet, just so readers can see what I'm referring to.

Crumbly Writer

@Wheezer

Refusenik apparently does not want to write more on that story, even though at least a few of his fans feel that there is more story he could tell. In fact, Refusenik has dropped off the scene. I was told that he was deeply involved in a business venture that took all his time and he had set aside any efforts to write.

My understanding is that he plans to return, and his 'business venture' is finally winding down, but whether he chooses to continue his finished saga or start a brand new one, is anyone's guess (most likely his, though). 'D

shinerdrinker

I do know one thing for sure about all of this. Whenever Refusenik publishes again, I'm stopping whatever the hell I'm doing and reading it.

Unless Cold Creek happens to post at the same time. Tee Hee.

Replies:   Ernest Bywater  joyR
Ernest Bywater

@shinerdrinker

I do know one thing for sure about all of this. Whenever Refusenik publishes again, I'm stopping whatever the hell I'm doing and reading it.

Unless Cold Creek happens to post at the same time. Tee Hee.


I have this deed for a lovely bridge in Brooklyn, and can sell it to you cheap. Are you interested?

(disengaging weird humour mode)

Replies:   LonelyDad
LonelyDad

@Ernest Bywater

I have this deed for a lovely bridge in Brooklyn, and can sell it to you cheap. Are you interested?

Depends on how cheap.

Replies:   Ernest Bywater  Wheezer
Ernest Bywater

@LonelyDad

Depends on how cheap.


very cheap, but certain government organisations claim they own it, too.

Wheezer

@LonelyDad

I have this deed for a lovely bridge in Brooklyn, and can sell it to you cheap. Are you interested?

Depends on how cheap.


Don't listen to him! It's a scam. I'll have you know that my Grandfather left me clear title to the Brooklyn Bridge, and I'm not selling.

Replies:   Ernest Bywater
Ernest Bywater
Updated:

@Wheezer


I'll have you know that my Grandfather left me clear title to the Brooklyn Bridge, and I'm not selling.


you got the clear title and I got the murky title. that means you own it when the water under it is clear and I own it when the water under it is murky.

typo edit

Replies:   Wheezer  Centaur
Wheezer

@Ernest Bywater

you got the clear title and I got the murky title. that means you own it when the water under it is clear and I won it when the water under it is murky.

Aaaaaaahahahahaha! :D

REP

@Jim S

I hope he so chooses


Or a really good writer could get his permission to write a sequel using Refusenik's writing style.

joyR
Updated:

@shinerdrinker


Unless Cold Creek happens to post at the same time. Tee Hee.


I'm not Canadian, I know nothing about Ice Hockey (except what I've picked up from CC's story), in fact it's not a genre I particularly like......

But

It is one of those stories that are almost impossible to put down once you start to read, then there are the gaps between chapters....

And you start to imagine.....

So far I'm about half way into Dman4

Replies:   Ernest Bywater
Ernest Bywater

@joyR

So far I'm about half way into Dman4


????? Where? D3 isn't finished!

Replies:   joyR
joyR

@Ernest Bywater

????? Where? D3 isn't finished!


I'm all too aware that D3 isn't finished...!!!

As I said, "And you start to imagine.....

So far I'm about half way into Dman4"

No, I'm not even considering writing a continuation, but in my imagination, I've completed my imagined continuation, and beyond, which would logically be D4.

Sorry if I raised your hopes, now repeat after me..... "Dear Santa, for Christmas please may we have D3 chapter 9"

Fingers crossed....

red61544

As I've said here before, the story belongs to the author! He only loans it to the readers. Were I to loan you my car, would you customize it or repaint it? The story is complete when the author says it is complete. Asking to add to it or change it is the height of arrogance.

Crumbly Writer
Updated:

@red61544


As I've said here before, the story belongs to the author! He only loans it to the readers. Were I to loan you my car, would you customize it or repaint it? The story is complete when the author says it is complete. Asking to add to it or change it is the height of arrogance.


If I understand it correctly, the point isn't to 'change an existing work', it's to complete a work the original author was unable to complete himself, just to see it finished or to do it in honor of the author.

Still, it needs to involve requesting permission to rip the author off. Even if you do a tremendous job, it's no longer the original author's, and in order to make the story consistent throughout, you'll essentially have to heavily 'revise' the original author's text to make it match your writing style, an inherently dishonest proposition. It can be done (see Ernest's co-written stories), but it takes a lot of finesse.

Replies:   red61544  REP
red61544

@Crumbly Writer

it needs to involve requesting permission to rip the author off

The emphasis is on "rip the author off"! I believe the story ends when the author says it ends; or it ends when the author's life ends; or it ends when the author's ideas for the story end! If someone really wants to do something "...in honor of the author", write a review. Allow the author's intellectual property alone. It belongs to him!

Replies:   Crumbly Writer
Crumbly Writer

@red61544

The emphasis is on "rip the author off"! I believe the story ends when the author says it ends; or it ends when the author's life ends; or it ends when the author's ideas for the story end! If someone really wants to do something "...in honor of the author", write a review. Allow the author's intellectual property alone. It belongs to him!

While I agree with you (to a degree), there is 'wiggle room'.

Since many authors either don't tell their family they 'write porn online', or don't supply passwords to their accounts, there's no way for anyone to authorize the original author's approval. Several authors have revised or completed stories for still-living but sickly authors, so it seems silly to block those efforts simply because the author didn't prepare for their deaths.

There's also the widespread use of fan-fiction, both here and on other sites, usually with the acceptance of the original authors. The authors, or their families, are free to file a complaint and Lazeez will yank the story, but if they don't, he's more inclined to leave them up.

I tend to search for a lot of photos, fonts and other things for my stories, but I can't tell you how many times I've found something that's ideal for a book, but the authors is 'unreachable'. After trying, I research it fairly heavily, but in many cases, the consensus opinion is that 'the artwork no longer belongs to anyone' (i.e. there's no one to contact), at which point everyone is legally allowed to use the material, as long as they stipulate they tried to contact the author and are willing to remove it if contacted by the rightful owners.

This is an extension of that principal. It's essentially a 'if no one sues, you're free to use it' clause, but it's got a fairly rich history.

Finally, there's the case of 'virtually any use is legit if the original author doesn't lose any income'. Legally, it's almost impossible to stop someone from 'borrowing' character names, situations or ideas, as long as they don't profit from it.

Since the vast majority of the stories here are free already, most of them fit into that legal category as well.

So, you see, it's not as cut and dried as we all wish it was.

Replies:   red61544
red61544

@Crumbly Writer

So if the author doesn't bitch, no harm no foul? Does that also apply to stories taken from SOL and sold on Amazon? Dead authors don't often complain so can I sell their works elsewhere? After all, "if no one sues...". Often, what is legal isn't necessarily ethical.

docholladay

@red61544

So if the author doesn't bitch, no harm no foul? Does that also apply to stories taken from SOL and sold on Amazon? Dead authors don't often complain so can I sell their works elsewhere? After all, "if no one sues...". Often, what is legal isn't necessarily ethical.


I believe most would just write it in their own style giving credit for the inspiration to both the story and its writer. I have seen many different versions of cmsix's "John and Argent" for one example. Almost every writer gave credit to start with to him and his story even if its in the incomplete status. Notice its their version of that basic plot line he used not a plagiarized story.

I think most can respect that type of either finishing or rewriting a story.

Replies:   Crumbly Writer
Crumbly Writer

@red61544

So if the author doesn't bitch, no harm no foul? Does that also apply to stories taken from SOL and sold on Amazon? Dead authors don't often complain so can I sell their works elsewhere? After all, "if no one sues...". Often, what is legal isn't necessarily ethical.

The key is, the author isn't reachable, you post your desire to contact the original author, and you NOT profit from the story. You can cheat a little on one or two of those, but those are the conditions which make it legally allowable.

Replies:   red61544
Crumbly Writer

@docholladay

I think most can respect that type of either finishing or rewriting a story.

I think the biggest contributor to new authors are either badly crafted or unfinished stories, as most of us started out after reading a bunch of stories and thinking 'Even I can write something better than this!'.

That's not copyright theft, that's an author's work inspiring others to reach for the stars. Copyright isn't borrowing someone's ideas, it's literally copying their words and taking money out of their pocket (by stealing their customers).

REP

@Crumbly Writer

you'll essentially have to heavily 'revise' the original author's text to make it match your writing style


The alternative is to write in the original Author's style following any outline they or their heirs may have provided. An extremely difficult thing to do, and only an excellent, flexible Author could pull it off.

richardshagrin

I don't believe authors can copywrite plots. Shakespeare stole his from other authors, he changed Juliet in Romeo and Juliet from 16 to 13. Condensed to their basics, there are only x number of plots (boy meets girl, gets girl, loses girl, gets girl back, for example). Particularly for Romance novels, readers would rebel if the standard story did not apply.

Being sent back to the Stone Age is freely available to any writer. Lots of them have tried, and most, like cmsix have had problems finding an ending they liked. Cmsix probably didn't invent that plot, either.

Replies:   REP
REP

@richardshagrin

I don't believe authors can copywrite plots.


I agree. There are a limited number of plotlines in existence. A love story is a love story; both have the same basic plot - X meet Y and this is how they met and what happened.

Only the first story in a plotline is original, the remaining novels and stories are just copies of the original with different characters, settings, scenarios, and narrative/dialog.

red61544

@Crumbly Writer

You can cheat a little on one or two of those

Ethics matter!

Replies:   Crumbly Writer
Crumbly Writer

@red61544

Ethics matter!

Sorry, loose language sinks ships too. I meant, you can fudge the rules a little, like with the fan-fiction situation where authors allow you to 'borrow' their characters (a clear violation of copyright), but since fanfiction authors don't make any money, the FF authors can't be sued for it. Instead, they operate in an unsteady truce. They're free to write under certain 'conditions', but if they screw the author, he'll revoke their ability to use his characters. (There are several infamous cases where this unintentionally happened.)

Replies:   Ernest Bywater  red61544
Ernest Bywater

@Crumbly Writer

you can fudge the rules a little, like with the fan-fiction situation where authors allow you to 'borrow' their characters (a clear violation of copyright), but since fanfiction authors don't make any money, the FF authors can't be sued for it.


That may be the case in the US, but in some countries how much you make out of the story only becomes relevant when the judge is piling on the additional compensation penalties you're paying for the copyright violation, and in some countries copyright violation carries a prison sentence. If you don't believe that, ask the guys in Europe sitting in prison for copyright violation on movie downloads.

bukkybrown5
Updated:

That story deserves sequel, damn am already imagining one myself, and refusnik is killing me slowly with the delay

red61544

@Crumbly Writer

bukkybrown5:
"That story deserves sequel, damn am already imagining one myself, and refusnik is killing me slowly with the delay."

Crumbly, the problem is some people will do what they want whether or not it's legal. It's a slippery slope when we do what is border-line legal and ignore what is ethical.

Replies:   Crumbly Writer
Crumbly Writer

@red61544

Crumbly, the problem is some people will do what they want whether or not it's legal. It's a slippery slope when we do what is border-line legal and ignore what is ethical.

There's no sense debating this endlessly. I'm NOT being unethical, because I'm NOT stealing anyone's work. However, the world isn't as black and white as the privileged like to pretend. Some of us have to live in the real world, where shades of gray exist.

I'm not saying I approve of theft, just that I can understand exceptions and exemptions.

Nuff said. We've wasted an entire day on these discussions and I've got stories to write.

Replies:   StarFleet Carl
StarFleet Carl

@Crumbly Writer

where shades of gray exist


Are there 50 of them? Which is also a perfect example of this:

the fan-fiction situation


Because that originally WAS a Fan Fiction.

richardshagrin

@StarFleet Carl

Fan Fiction

There aren't a lot of stories about fans to move air around, possibly to make things cooler. If your story has a fan in it is it cool?

Replies:   joyR  Crumbly Writer
joyR

@richardshagrin

If your story has a fan in it is it cool?


Only if the fan is rotating, and then only until the effluent strikes it.

Replies:   Crumbly Writer
Oyster

Back on topic:

If there is a sequel it would have to be about someone else than Waylon. His "hero's journey" is finished, at least that's how I see it.

Let's revisit and sum up the situation at the end:
- Waylon and the AIs are on Mars and have the whole planet's resources available and no need for secrecy
- Earth has to deal with the massive strikes against China and the fallout from that
- All major powers have to realise that their armies and arsenals are not enough to stop Waylon
- Arman and one AI are left on Earth

So what would a sequel be about? What would be the stakes?
With the situation such as it is you have a group in this universe that could be omniscient and omnipotent as Earth has no defense against the AIs' capabilities and Waylon could step in whenever he chose and swiftly deal with nearly everything that one could throw at him.

Replies:   JohnPalko  Jim S
JohnPalko

@Oyster

The plot to justify a sequel including Waylon is simplicity itself...

Arrival of other aliens.

samuelmichaels

@JohnPalko

e so chooses. A


To hijack the thread a little, why not write your own story *inspired* by Island Mine? There are plenty of other, very good stories that feature one or handful of characters receiving, inventing or discovering advanced space travel technology and their subsequent conflicts with Earth governments?

Don't need to borrow Waylon or skirt copyright violation.

Replies:   Crumbly Writer
Crumbly Writer

@richardshagrin

There aren't a lot of stories about fans to move air around, possibly to make things cooler. If your story has a fan in it is it cool?

I'd say they are, because story that feature celebrities in fictional situations, or which 'borrow' someone else's characters aren't 'hot' and leave me cold!

Crumbly Writer

@joyR

Only if the fan is rotating, and then only until the effluent strikes it.

Who's dumb enough to sit on a rotating fan?

They prefer to be facing you when you sit on their faces.

Replies:   joyR
Crumbly Writer

@JohnPalko

The plot to justify a sequel including Waylon is simplicity itself...

Giant ants run amuck. Those are always popular. Either that, or something with the Wayan brothers or Melissa McCartney.

Ernest Bywater

@StarFleet Carl

Fan Fiction


Isn't that a story about a fictional fan that people can't see, but they think they feel the air from it washing over them?

Replies:   Crumbly Writer
Crumbly Writer

@samuelmichaels

To hijack the thread a little, why not write your own story *inspired* by Island Mine? There are plenty of other, very good stories that feature one or handful of characters receiving, inventing or discovering advanced space travel technology and their subsequent conflicts with Earth governments?

Don't need to borrow Waylon or skirt copyright violation.

What brings most of us to write fiction is reading something we think: I could do better.

When you read a successful story, you try to imagine where it goes in the future. When you read an unsuccessful. but promising story, you decide to start over from scratch, building a better story from the ground up, rather than 'borrowing' an already flawed story.

Crumbly Writer

@Ernest Bywater

Isn't that a story about a fictional fan that people can't see, but they think they feel the air from it washing over them?

No, no. If it features things not yet possible with current technology, then it's fan-sci-fi! If it's about things we don't know how ends, then it's a fan-mystery. If it's about romance, then it's a fan-romance: fanboy romance if about a guy, and fangirl romance if about a woman.

Replies:   Ernest Bywater
Ernest Bywater

@Crumbly Writer

If it's about romance, then it's a fan-romance: fanboy romance if about a guy, and fangirl romance if about a woman.


Ah, so they're the types of stories where a guy at an Miami game meets up with another Miami fan and they get to know each other real well after the game?

Replies:   Crumbly Writer
Crumbly Writer

@Ernest Bywater

If it's about romance, then it's a fan-romance: fanboy romance if about a guy, and fangirl romance if about a woman.

Ah, so they're the types of stories where a guy at an Miami game meets up with another Miami fan and they get to know each other real well after the game?

Or, more likely, a story where iPhone and Samsung users meet other iPhone or Samsung users, or hookups during comic con.

joyR

@Crumbly Writer

Who's dumb enough to sit on a rotating fan?

They prefer to be facing you when you sit on their faces.


The majority of fans are submissive and share a kink of being caged or otherwise imprisoned behind bars. As such these fans don't get the choice as to how we choose to sit on them, or indeed how much rotation is allowed them.

Of course there are exceptions, such as ceiling fans, who have the suspension kink, not to mention those extremes like the turbo-fans that enjoy a great deal of thrust.....

Replies:   Crumbly Writer
Crumbly Writer

@joyR

Of course there are exceptions, such as ceiling fans, who have the suspension kink, not to mention those extremes like the turbo-fans that enjoy a great deal of thrust.....

I like fans because I appreciate being blown. Of course, if I decide on something different, I can reverse it and get sucked instead. 'D However, I ain't about to stick my dick anywhere near the thing. I just don't trust those types!

Replies:   joyR
joyR

@Crumbly Writer

I just don't trust those types!


Unlike the dyslexic but well endowed young lady who purchased a bust duster.

Replies:   Crumbly Writer
Crumbly Writer

@joyR

Unlike the dyslexic but well endowed young lady who purchased a bust duster.

Ow, but I'd still rather vacuum my tits than stick my dick (or balls) into a spinning fan! One's painful, but the other is excruciating.

Replies:   joyR
joyR

@Crumbly Writer

I'd still rather vacuum my tits


Not something you hear a guy say often...

the other is excruciating


Don't you mean emasculating..??

Unless it's a very blunt fan at fairly slow r.p.m. but that's out there, even for the masochists.

Not that this isn't enjoyable, but are we going to continue to wail on so far off topic ?

samuelmichaels

@StarFleet Carl

Because that originally WAS a Fan Fiction.


I would think a more appropriate take-off for Twilight would be titled something like Fanciful Fangs, a Fanfiction.

Replies:   StarFleet Carl
StarFleet Carl

@samuelmichaels

I would think a more appropriate take-off for Twilight would be titled something like Fanciful Fangs, a Fanfiction.


This article is a couple of years old (first published in 2015), but gives the details:

http://www.businessinsider.com/fifty-shades-of-grey-started-out-as-twilight-fan-fiction-2015-2

Jim S

@Oyster

Let's revisit and sum up the situation at the end:
- Waylon and the AIs are on Mars and have the whole planet's resources available and no need for secrecy
- Earth has to deal with the massive strikes against China and the fallout from that
- All major powers have to realise that their armies and arsenals are not enough to stop Waylon
- Arman and one AI are left on Earth


This is excellent. Couple with the three points from my original post. I'll add another -- potential Merilee siblings (never precluded). A sister would be cool, but there could also be something (non romantic) worked in for a brother.

JohnPalko's idea of other aliens arriving is brilliant. Would have to be AIs though as the time frame given at the beginning had them traveling for over a billion years.

One thing about the Mar's colony. It makes mining the asteroids easier than the original plan as the asteroids don't have to be dragged back to the Moon's Lagrangian points.

Another point: Earth is yet unaware that alien intelligence was involved in Waylon's enterprises. That could receive a whole lot of attention.

Refusnik, are you listening? :)

Replies:   joyR  JohnPalko
joyR

@Jim S

Refusnik, are you listening?


Even if the answer is yes, I very much doubt you'll get a response and just about zero chance of the sequel.

The problem with building an outline for a sequel you want the author to write is that few if any writers will use that which you have developed. For a commercial author it opens up all kinds of copyright issues.

Just as FanFic stories can destroy the authors intended story arc, what you are doing is just as likely to put off any chance of a sequel.

Not that I mean to apportion blame or indeed suggest you quit. I'm just pointing out the "collateral damage".

Replies:   Jim S
Jim S

@joyR

The problem with building an outline for a sequel you want the author to write is that few if any writers will use that which you have developed. For a commercial author it opens up all kinds of copyright issues.


Refusnik hereby has my permission to use any of my idea, in whole or in part. If I was going to copyright this, I'd write it myself. But thats a moot point since I don't have the talent to produce anything as good as he did. Nor the inclination. I just flat loved the story and the concept and just wish it doesn't end.

docholladay

Heck do like I do. Be grateful he shared what he did. Of course any of you writers with the skill feel free to write your own story based on same general plot line, just make it your own story.

JohnPalko

@Jim S

Not those aliens. Although their appearance would certainly rile up Waylon's pet AI's. Local aliens from our close in galactic neighborhood would do just fine... I can see two or three logical plot lines 1) Agressive invaders that motivate Waylon enough to somehow intercede to protect the Earth (or at least Texas.... heh). 2) Our wonderful, sooo responsible and insightful governments or the usual (brain dead and/or hysterical) suspects making a total cock-up out of first contact or subsequent efforts to interact with the new neighbors. 3)Simple curiousity gets the better of Waylon and finally coaxes him out of his hemitage.

Harold Wilson
Updated:

@red61544


As I've said here before, the story belongs to the author! He only loans it to the readers.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pride_and_Prejudice_and_Zombies

Also: https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/pastiche

tucson

I believe that any story marked incomplete and inactive is open for any author to finish. One year after the last chapter indicates the original author has abandoned it. By any chance does this site notify the author that there story has been declared inactive?

samuelmichaels

@tucson

I believe that any story marked incomplete and inactive is open for any author to finish.


I don't think that's how copyright works.

Ernest Bywater

@tucson

I believe that any story marked incomplete and inactive is open for any author to finish. One year after the last chapter indicates the original author has abandoned it. By any chance does this site notify the author that there story has been declared inactive?


No story is open to be completed by another unless the original author specifically states it as such or it's dropped into the public domain due to the expiry of copyright which is many years after the author died.

Yes, when a story earns the dreaded yellow stripe the author is notified of the event by Lazeez. An author who had that happen to him told me about being notified.

docholladay

@tucson

I believe that any story marked incomplete and inactive is open for any author to finish. One year after the last chapter indicates the original author has abandoned it. By any chance does this site notify the author that there story has been declared inactive?


The only way I would want to read the type of story you mention is if the writer lists the original story and writer as a reference. Then the writer has to write their OWN version of that story with their OWN characters. Otherwise without permission from the original writer its just plain stealing in my opinion.

Replies:   Dominions Son  REP
Dominions Son

@docholladay

It's only stealing if they don't have explicit permission from the original author and/or the author's estate.

(good luck getting either from an SOL author whose dropped off the face of the earth.)

Replies:   docholladay
docholladay
Updated:

@Dominions Son


It's only stealing if they don't have explicit permission from the original author and/or the author's estate.


That is why I said they need to write their OWN version of the story with their own characters based on the original story with a reference to that story for the idea/inspiration.

Writers who finish stories with permission usually include a statement to that fact in some form early on. Those I respect and will read the finished version if I like the theme of the story. I like a wide range of themes so the chances are good that I might read it.

REP
Updated:

@docholladay


Then the writer has to write their OWN version of that story with their OWN characters.


But if Tucson were to do that, he would not be completing an existing storyline.

He would be doing what we all do - select a basic premise (i.e., the same one as the unfinished story), create a plot, and then flesh it out with characters, dialog, and supporting narrative. In other words, he would be creating a new story.

Replies:   Wheezer
Wheezer
Updated:

@REP


He would be doing what we all do - select a basic premise (i.e., the same one as the unfinished story), create a plot, and then flesh it out with characters, dialog, and supporting narrative. In other words, he would be creating a new story.

Considering that Island Mine is a completed work, that is all that anyone can do as there is no incomplete story to be finished. Even Refusenik himself would be creating a new story if he chose to write a sequel. Anything another author could do would be in the nature of fan-fic, with all the legal ramifications that come with it - mainly, would Refusenik choose to ignore such a work, or not.

Replies:   REP
REP

@Wheezer

Tucson posted:

I believe that any story marked incomplete and inactive is open for any author to finish.


You are correct in that Island Mine is a completed story. However, the above is what Tucson posted. He specifically addressed 'incomplete and inactive' stories without mention of Island Mine.

What Tucson stated would apply to all 'incomplete and inactive' stories, and that would be a copyright violation if he were to act on his specific statement.

What Docholladay suggested was to write a similar story rather than build on a story that another author owns, which is what I was addressing.

Replies:   docholladay
Jim S

I was surprised to see this topic active again. It got me interested again so I went back and reread the final two chapters (18 & 19) to refresh my memory. What I saw was about 7 or 8 hooks that I didn't recall when I first started this thread. I can't help but believe Refusnik was unaware of that. He did something similar with the Human duplex. So maybe I'll get my wish.

Replies:   REP
REP

@Jim S

What I saw was about 7 or 8 hooks that I didn't recall when I first started this thread.


I've noticed that in ending a story, most authors have many 'potential' subplots that are briefly mentioned but never developed .

docholladay

@REP

What Docholladay suggested was to write a similar story rather than build on a story that another author owns, which is what I was addressing.


My reasoning is that unless you have permission in one form or another. Use the story as inspiration to create your own version. The acknowledgement is the right thing to do regardless however. Respect is always worth while.

LonelyDad

I have noticed a few authors have stories that are basically add-ons to stories by another author. Usually prefaced by something like 'I liked [other author]'s story, but think it should have gone further, so I wrote this. What are some opinions on this practice vis-a-vis copyright violations. On one hand, they are doing nothing to the original story/stories, and are creating their own original works. On the other hand, they are using the author's plot, settings, and characters as the basis for their own work. Would this be a sort of fanfic? As far as the Human stories go, Refusnik has basically created a Universe of two stories, and around here the polite thing to do is to gain permission to add the universe before doing so. I suppose 'Island Mine' could be considered a one story Universe, so the same consideration would apply.

Let the comments fly!

Replies:   Ernest Bywater  REP
Ernest Bywater

@LonelyDad

Let the comments fly!


The copyright laws of most countries include the actual text as a given. However, they also usually include the characters and names of places that aren't real places. The names get very iffy at times, because the name itself isn't copyrighted, while the named character is. For example: write a historical story set in 12th century England with a character named Hermione Granger and you aren't violating copyright (in most jurisdictions) but use a character named Hermione Granger in a modern day magical universe and you are violating copyright. However, using the same plot device or concept in a story with your own characters and plot development is legal. So to write a story about students at a school of magic called Hogwarts is a copyright violation (due to the school name) writing the same story about students at a school called Merlin's is not a copyright violation and is legal, as long as you don't violate with the character names.

In a story the story Revenge for the School we first wrote to Connard Wellingham to get permission to use their characters, then wrote a story using them. I did the same when using Dual Writers characters for cameos in a few of my stories. If I had not got their permission prior to publishing the stories I would have been in violation of copyright.

In the context of this thread you can use the same concept to write your own story, but you can't use the same characters in it.

Replies:   docholladay
docholladay

@Ernest Bywater

In a story the story Revenge for the School we first wrote to Connard Wellingham to get permission to use their characters, then wrote a story using them. I did the same when using Dual Writers characters for cameos in a few of my stories. If I had not got their permission prior to publishing the stories I would have been in violation of copyright.


You also made no changes to their characters. The characters were used in a support and/or background mode to add depth to the story. Done properly it adds depth to both stories not just one. For the original it fills in empty time spaces.

Like I said earlier with some form of permission its fine to continue or use their characters and places. Without it then an ethical writer will create their own story built on the same plot line with new characters. The plot and/or characters can have many things in common but must be an original story.

REP

@LonelyDad

On the other hand, they are using the author's plot, settings, and characters as the basis for their own work.


One aspect of that, which I do not recall being addressed, is the original author invested a great deal of time and effort in creating his story. That time and effort yielded a story that gained the respect of readers and authors.

For some author to use the story as the basis of their new story, with or without permission, can have a very negative effect on the respect given to original author's story. This is especially true when the new author has poor writing skills and fails to handle the characters in the appropriate manner which includes placing them in situations that are appropriate per the original author's character development.

For example: The original author's MC treats his woman with respect, and the new author has the MC treating her as a slut.

From the reader's perspective, such a change would damage the original story's respect for readers tend to overlook the fact that the two stories are written by different authors. They want the characters to be consistent throughout all of the stories.

Replies:   AmigaClone
AmigaClone

@REP

For example: The original author's MC treats his woman with respect, and the new author has the MC treating her as a slut.


In some cases a blurb stating something like "this story occurs in a parallel universe to the one created by author XYZ. While there are a number of similarities to characters and locations from that universe, there are a number of differences as well" before the actual beginning of the story would be enough.

I know that there are some that would ignore that warning even if it appeared at the beginning of every page and complain (to the original author) about the changes his characters have gone through.

Replies:   docholladay  REP
docholladay

@AmigaClone

I think there are people who would complain regardless. My idea is based on respect and ethics nothing more or less. in admitting where the idea came from and stating you are creating your own version of the story. A writer acknowledges the original creator while creating their own version based on that original version.

Its the same way with ages. Different cultures and time periods had different standards as to what was considered an adult age (mating), Problems occur with that difference everyday in our time period as well. Different cultures have different standards and major problems can and will occur when ever one culture tries to force their standards on another culture.

Replies:   Ernest Bywater
Ernest Bywater

@docholladay

I think there are people who would complain regardless. My idea is based on respect and ethics nothing more or less. in admitting where the idea came from and stating you are creating your own version of the story. A writer acknowledges the original creator while creating their own version based on that original version.


In principle, I agree with you,doc, but, that's not always possible due to the age and difficulty in tracking down who it was who first wrote a story with the basic theme. I wouldn't expect anyone to put an acknowledgement to H.G.Wells in front of their time travel story, because the genre is that old and well known, the same is true for many other types of stories. However, when they take directly from a specific story universe, I would expect the acknowledgement, which I've done when I think I should.

Replies:   docholladay
Centaur

@Ernest Bywater

I have beach front property in Arizona for sale.

Replies:   Dominions Son
Dominions Son

@Centaur

I have beach front property in Arizona for sale.


How many miles from the water to the inland side of the beach?

docholladay

@Ernest Bywater

In principle, I agree with you,doc,


Like I said its a matter of respect and ethics. I agree some themes and ideas have become almost generic or whatever the label is currently. I think you and most of the writers here have a great since of ethics.

Replies:   robberhands
robberhands
Updated:

@docholladay

I think you and most of the writers here have a great sense of ethics.

I store all such smelly things in cardboard boxes down in the cellar.

ETA: I should get rid of them for good but you never know, I might need them one day.

Replies:   docholladay
docholladay

@robberhands

I store all such smelly things in cardboard boxes down in the cellar.


Notice that didn't include any remarks about respect. Respect is a different aspect.

REP
Updated:

@AmigaClone


In some cases a blurb stating something like


That is different from building on an existing story or finishing an 'incomplete and inactive' story, which is what was suggested earlier in the thread.

In my opinion, some people would view such a blurb as the author distancing his story from an existing story. I would have to ask, Why is the author trying to distance themselves from something, when it is obvious that they used that something as a model for what they created? I also think that many of us recognize that when someone puts out a blurb like that, they are actually hoping the denial will create a link that will make their story more acceptable to the reader.

Dominions Son

@REP

I also think that many of us recognize that when someone puts out a blurb like that, they are actually hoping the denial will create a link that will make their story more acceptable to the reader.


I am skeptical that you are actually recognizing something rather than making unwarranted assumptions.

I can think of at least one perfectly legitimate reason for such a blurb. The new story was inspired by the other story but is not meant to be a continuation or be in the same universe with the same history and the author is looking to forestall reader complaints about continuity errors from the story that inspired him.

Replies:   REP
AmigaClone

@REP

I would have to ask, Why is the author trying to distance themselves from something, when it is obvious that they used that something as a model for what they created?


It's possible that the author of the original work insisted the fan fiction author place a blurb similar to the one previously mentioned before approving it.

Replies:   REP
REP

@AmigaClone

It sounds as if your statement conflicts with itself.

If the original author is granting approval, then there would be no need for the new author to 'distance' them self from the original work. If the original author insists on a blurb, it would probably be worded along the line of - This story is base on XYZ with the permission and approval of ABC.

REP

@Dominions Son

We can always find an exception to everything that is stated as indisputable fact.

Replies:   richardshagrin
richardshagrin

@REP

indisputable fact

I maintain it is an indisputable fact that two plus two is four. Where is the exception to that statement?

Replies:   Ernest Bywater  REP
Ernest Bywater

@richardshagrin

I maintain it is an indisputable fact that two plus two is four. Where is the exception to that statement?


Maybe as the number twenty-two or when you use binary numbering or base three for it to be something else.

Mind you you could have it for dancing as a a tutu.

REP
Updated:

@richardshagrin


Where is the exception to that statement?


When you adding 2 and 2 results in 22.

ETA: As EB said, 2 + 2 in base 3 format yields 11.

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