Forum: Story Discussion and Feedback

When the translation is with the word, no problem.

I've had my fair share. IIRC a translation was usually provided or the context was included in the response.

"thiyt seok trppsa."

"yes, I would enjoy a glass of milk."

Agreed.

Scientific advances are always accompanied by a proliferation of jargon. I've invented some new terms to incorporate in my current WIP. However they look like English, with recognisable English roots, and readers don't need to know their precise meaning.

AJ

Oops, my bad!

I cheat. I usually have my alien species all speaking a common language, which is a really big cheat considering how many languages we still have on earth. The exception is when a lack of understanding is a plot requirement.

AJ

Survival of the fittest and parallel evolution.

Since I've only one planet and one technological species on which to base my assumptions, aliens all tend to have similar features to humans, whatever their origins.

At least that's slightly more plausible than Dr Who's tardis doing the translating ;)

AJ

Since I've only one planet and one technological species on which to base my assumptions, aliens all tend to have similar features to humans, whatever their origins.

To give a specific example, here's an unedited passage from my newest story:

"I recorded each phrase, so you can practice them on your return flight, though I suggest you listen to them quietly, rather than attract the attention of every creature on your flight."

"Do I get one?" Meg demanded, pouting slightly.

Phil chuckled. "Not now, since we'll be practicing on the ride back, but I'll give you one so you can listen to it at night—a recognized form of becoming familiar with foreign pronunciations."

"As long as I get one," she answered, smiling sweetly, winking at him. "And Silsk you too!"

"Meg!" Abe cautioned. "That's incredibly rude."

"I don't object to that, but she's not using the term correctly. The proper term—in that context—is Sslaussen!"

"Please, she already knows enough four letter words, she doesn't need any lisping nine-letter ones."

"How do you know the precise meaning of these phrases?" Toni demanded again. "It's not like you have a dragon-English translation book."

"It comes from the context and how it's delivered. You figure out the meaning more from the non-verbal clues than you do from a formal definition, the same way you know when an Italian is cursing you even if you don't know precisely what they're saying."

"Silsk" Toni said quietly, testing the phrase.

"Sslaussen!" Meg said a bit more emphatically, though keeping her voice pitched lower.

it isn't all that plausible that they would all have compatible vocal organs.

I had that problem in my story Time Scope 2 (i.e. an alien race, Altairians, communicating with people who speak the English language). I went with a translator program that uses a dedicated English-Altairian translation database.

Of course, I avoided the technical characteristics, database size, and implementation problems inherent in such an approach. I relied on my reader accepting that an alien race might have such a device and they had resolved the issues that our technology would have in creating such a device.

Edit to add: The story is currently being posted and I don't think posted chapters have addressed that issue.

But surely if they are several millenia more advanced than Homo Sapiens they may have developed an ability to read minds

Even if they've learned to read each others' mind, that doesn't mean they can read human minds, or that humans can necessarily read theirs. :(

A common cheat is to have some kind of automated tech based translation, like the universal translator in Star Trek.

The problem with a common "galactic language" is that if you are going for diverse aliens (not all primate based humanoids) it isn't all that plausible that they would all have compatible vocal organs.

What's more, that won't always sidestep the issue. If every alien species speaks the same common galactic language, then if one is going to curse, they'll do it in their own language, precisely so the listener won't realize just how vile the insult is! It's the same thing as a Korean muttering something in Korean on a crowded bus.

However, in that case, a handy way of handling it is to have someone who speaks Korean, but who isn't Korean themselves, challenge them over what they said, thus translating it for readers who realize the extent of the actual insult.

I cheat. I usually have my alien species all speaking a common language, which is a really big cheat considering how many languages we still have on earth. The exception is when a lack of understanding is a plot requirement.

That's usually the point in showing foreign languages. If everyone understands what's said, you just state in English, since the characters are performing their own internal translations.

If a writer shows the actual foreign language phrase, that's supposed to show that most, if not all of the characters don't understand it as well.

In my latest book (which won't show up here for some time), I introduce several foreign (alien) language curses, with translations, but then reuse the phrases in conversations later—where readers may not remember the context any longer. :(

"thiyt seok trppsa."

Nah, like - thiyt seok trppsa :)

if told from the point-of-view of someone who doesn't speak the other languages, if one character rattles off a bunch of nonsensical words, the character is not supposed to understand it, just as the character in question doesn't.

True and perfectly acceptable if the writer explains to the reader what is being said. Leaving the reader in the dark or forcing the reader to refer to some dictionary of XYZ terms interferes with the flow of the story, and in my opinion, is a big no-no.

I'm not sure about Ernest's suggestion that most people understand merde or perdonome but there are other common ones not so well known in parts of Appalachian USA.

True, but where I've seen it used in a story the context made it clear it was some sort of expletive, and that's sufficient information for the reader to get the benefit of what's said. Just like the way I started the post with 'Oh, Smeg.' I'm sure you all took to be an expletive like 'Oh, hell' etc. but had no idea what it really meant.

Just like the way I started the post with 'Oh, Smeg.' I'm sure you all took to be an expletive like 'Oh, hell' etc. but had no idea what it really meant.

I'm old school, and know the exact definition of "Smeg" (it's much filthier than "Oh, hell!", in a literal sense).

I'm old school, and know the exact definition of "Smeg" (it's much filthier than "Oh, hell!", in a literal sense).

Watch it, or I'll ask Lister to call on you.

or Rimmer if you really want to make him suffer.

Nah, never happen, because I couldn't stand to be in Arnold's presence long enough to arrange it. Nor do I have his email to do it that way.

but got the gist of what was going on.

I can understand that. Although I have to wonder, if the beginning was important to the rest of the movie and the viewer did not get the gist of the beginning, how would that might impact their understanding of the rest of the movie.

Or sometimes the POV character doesn't understand the language so doesn't know what is being said.

Which is why The Third Man didn't have subtitles. Holly Martins, who doesn't know German, isn't supposed to know what's being said. Since Holly is the main character, the lack of subtitles just reinforces how out of his depth he is.

Did you see the movie "Lion?" The entire beginning was not in English. And no subtitles. I was not pleased, but got the gist of what was going on.

The main character is a five-year-old Hindi speaker when the movie begins. He finds himself in Kolkata, where the main language is Bengali (Bangla). He didn't know what was going on.

In order to depict Saroo's POV, there couldn't be any subtitles. Translating Bengali would have been dishonest. [Since Saroo would grow up to forget Hindi, not translating that language was also justified.]

Which is why The Third Man didn't have subtitles. Holly Martins, who doesn't know German, isn't supposed to know what's being said. Since Holly is the main character, the lack of subtitles just reinforces how out of his depth he is.

German speakers in the audience would know what was being said, which would ruin the effect for them.

How could the film be shown in Germany without ruining it? They couldn't dub the actors or use subtitles.

I'm not a fan of the technique.

AJ

German speakers in the audience would know what was being said, which would ruin the effect for them.

How could the film be shown in Germany without ruining it? They couldn't dub the actors or use subtitles.

Not really, since they're familiar with the situation as they're likely to have encountered it many times from both sides. Instead, they read it from a different perspectives, which actually makes the story more interesting (and reinforces the need to properly research your stories).

Babel fish

Most of them get elected to political positions.

Babel fish

Just a word of warning, it you use actual foreign languages, you can't reply on tools like Babelfish or Google Translate, as they often produce nonsensical translations (i.e. the native speaks won't have a clue what they're actually saying).

I've learned, after many mistakes, that it's worth investing $5 on Fivrr to get exact translations from native speakers. That way, you look like less of an idiot when people from other countries read your stories. 'D

Gaelic CANNOT be pronounced by English speakers by sounding out a syllable at a time.

Hukt on fonix wurkt for me?

I thought it was an urban legend or myth, but my wife actually had someone apply for a job at her work with the name L-a. That was what was on her application.

Pronounced Ladasha.

Pronounced Ladasha.

Strangely enough, I can see that pronunciation.

Example, one of the easiest Gaelic names to remember how to pronounce IF you learn how first is Siobhan, which is pronounced Shaw-vahn.

An Irish girl I once worked with insisted her name was pronounced - don't know the phonetic codes but take the word chevron and move the 'r' one place to the right ie chevorn.

AJ

as I'm finally returning to my infamous long, protracted rambling plots!

A good plot is a good plot, regardless of whether it is long/short or rambling/focused.

A good plot is a good plot, regardless of whether it is long/short or rambling/focused.

True, but a long rambling story can destroy a good plot.

True, but a long rambling story can destroy a good plot.

See my previous comment. But then again, many people have reflected that I make complicated complex sentences seem 'natural', my readers appreciate my complex group discussions and my characters need the time to deconstruct my convoluted premises.

It's not that the extra words make the story harder to read, instead they add value to the story, so given their druthers, my fans prefer I not trim my stories. However, it's been difficult retraining myself to write longer stories after struggling for so long to write concise stories. :(

A good plot is a good plot, regardless of whether it is long/short or rambling/focused.

That's what I thought, but ALL of my shorter (under 150,000 word) novels have been trashed on SOL, with each getting lower scores than all my previous stories. Thus I learned my lesson. Since I'm not finding any new readers via Amazon, I'm returning to my ponderous tomes, regardless of how efficiently I can tell the stale.

Part of that, though, is that by not trimming it, you get more of the 'self-reflective' investigation about the nature of things, which helps build a better character portrait of the different characters. If each person takes a slightly different position in those debates, then they all get better fleshed out. So I can appreciate why they're hungry for that kind of story. However, that logic flies in the face of ALL the writing advice I've ever read!

While most readers like short books they can read on a single trip to the beach, SOL readers prefer reading a single chapter at a time, and thus look for the longest single chapters they can get. Thus I'm not sure that tendency translates to more readers anywhere else. :(

with each getting lower scores than all my previous stories.

I suspect you are confusing a good plot with the manner in which it is told.

Just for fun - imagine that english is your fifth, or even tenth language. What would you think if someone who comes to your country find his/hers prima donna self insulted that you are mixing his english with your native language and couple of others?

That's why I run all my translations (I submit the original text and have a native speaker translate it for me) through Fivvr. I don't want to get called on a crappy translation.

With Fivvr, there's no guarantee it's the best translation, but it's ALWAYS better than Bablefish or Google Translate!

I like the way Ernest does it for foreign languages. He might have a paragraph or so in that language (with translation as needed), but then he will state the rest will be written in English with the understanding that most if not all conversations will actually be in Japanese for those stories which include Japan. Enough of the applicable language is used while its stated early on that the rest will be written in English.

That's the same approach that I (and Ernest) use for regional accents or dialects. You use just enough to give readers a feel of what it sounds like, then drop everything but a few key phrases, which serve to remind the reader the character is still speaking with an accent.

There nothing worse than an epic poem you have to translate word for word from 'spoken' pidgin English to 'standard' English.

I would like to add that if the writer and the editors feel the story is getting to long. It makes it simpler to find a natural combination ending/starting point. Like we see so much of in those TV shows which run multiple years or seasons as they term it. The ending of one season sets up the starting show for the next season. I don't know if that principle can be used in other medias however.

It works well - I did that with the Clan Amir series and the Chaos Calls stories.

I would like to add that if the writer and the editors feel the story is getting to long. It makes it simpler to find a natural combination ending/starting point. Like we see so much of in those TV shows which run multiple years or seasons as they term it. The ending of one season sets up the starting show for the next season. I don't know if that principle can be used in other medias however.

Those "TV shows" are called a "series", which is, coincidentally, the same thing you call a story that continues from one book to another. 'D However, a story that starts with one book and continues with additional books, with little to no change in the basic conflicts, is called a "serial", and that's where you run into trouble, as there's no conflict resolution, and emotional connection to actually power a story.

However, a story that starts with one book and continues with additional books, with little to no change in the basic conflicts, is called a "serial", and that's where you run into trouble, as there's no conflict resolution, and emotional connection to actually power a story.

But in such a serialized story the plot is about your MC's efforts to attain a resolution to the stated conflict, thus the conflict is not the plot.

But in such a serialized story the plot is about your MC's efforts to attain a resolution to the stated conflict, thus the conflict is not the plot.

There are typically multiple conflicts, but generally, a series will have one overriding conflict, while each book will have a distinctive primary conflict, with secondary and tertiary conflicts popping up as needed.

In my stories, the characters are trying to resolve a specific conflict, but that depends on their understanding the physics which governs what's occurring (i.e. source of a plague, how telepathy works, or why zombies continue to live after death).

My stories are more about the scientific method than anything else, as the characters are in a race against time to figure out whatever new power/abilities they've discovered before it's too late.

The conflict is the driver of the plot, but the plot determines the steps the characters have to follow to resolve the conflicts.

Just an FYI, Ch 1 has both the foreign and English sentences

I have read/started several stories that use foreign words. In most, the Author provides English translations. However, in the story I recall most clearly, the Author gave his readers a listing of 20-30 made-up words with meanings that he would be using during his story. He didn't provide translations in the story, I skimmed several paragraphs and bailed. In other stories, the Author would define a word or phase when first presented, and they expected you to remember the word/phase. I don't recall a glossary, but there may have been one.

When I encountered your note, I interpreted it to mean you would be using foreign words and phrases in the story, and not be providing English translations after the first chapter.

After reading your post, I reread the note and I saw how you may have meant no foreign words after the first chapter. So assuming I misread your note, I apologize for any offense.

I think the story appeared as a new one on the SOL home page between a week and two weeks ago.

IIRC, the story I was referencing was posted early last year.

Thanks for reading the story further.

Actually, I didn't read it beyond your note. When I read that note and interpreted it the way I did, I bailed for I'm not willing to expend the time and effort to learn foreign words and phrases just to enjoy a story.

I found the story of interest based on the description, so since it isn't what I thought it was, I bookmarked it and will give it a try. Thanks for clarifying my misunderstanding.

I've found that it really is hit-or-miss depending on the skills of the author.

Like you, I pretty much automatically turn away from any story that the author thinks needs a huge cast list or dictionary. I'm not going to bother trying to keep all those characters and words straight in the brain.

For an example, in Three Square Meals, I think the author is just at the borderline of good in terms of the number of "species" involved. He does a great job of illustrating the species each time they appear so you don't forget that Maliri are blue-skinned hotties and the Khintark are the ugly bad guys.

Because he does such a good job of working the description of the species into the story, you get a constant reminder of what they look/act like and don't feel like you have to keep them straight in your imagination. Same goes for his use of alien language.

I'll keep that in mind in the future, especially as I revise my current story (currently in development) as it features a bunch of different species, using a LOT of specific foreign words and phrases. Typically, authors WANT to avoid repetition, but in this case, constantly repeating the same thing serves a definite purpose, making establishing clear lines more difficult.

In my case, I think I'm clear, since most of the terms and phrases consist of variations of either "Hey, You!" or "Screw You!" in various languages, but I've already started restating what specific terms means, each time they're used (specifically, the names of the different species/races).

As for cast lists, I prefer complex multi-character dialogues, as I tend to write more far-encroaching epics, but I also include cast lists (and limit them) to make them both usable and easy to reference. I'd rather not limit how far a story can range, but I also don't want to overwhelm readers.

In all, it's a fascinating dilemma that all authors should be aware of. If you don't need an answer now, it doesn't mean you won't some time in the future.

It's got to be a thorough pain to try and keep all that stuff straight as you're writing. As a reader, I find it taxing enough and can't imagine what it'd be like as the guy behind the pen.

The key is, I don't aim to write 'easy' stories, instead I'm drawn to the difficult ones (like one's where everyone dies, where there are over a hundred characters, the characters all disagree with each other, or other complicating factors which (hopefully) make the story more captivating (kind of like watching a trapeze act, where you wonder whether they're going to fall to their deaths or not).

I've long said, I like planning out a complete story, but before I begin writing, I purposely throw in a monkey wrench which completely disrupts the entire story. Then I'll sit on it (or at least I used to, as I've progressed beyond this process some time ago) until I figure out how to rectify the dilemma.

The resulting story, more complicated because of the added complications, make for a more involved, rich story. However, I wouldn't recommend that technique for everyone, as it's fraught with obvious problems, as I've also had several spectacular failures!

There are people who like reading those kinds of stories. :)

And those who find them ... difficult! 'D