Forum: Story Discussion and Feedback

It can be very amusing when an actual character in the story breaks the fourth wall. See: Pool, Dead

Walters, Jennifer ... aka She-Hulk, did it well before Wade Wilson.

That technique fails terribly when all the people involved in the conversation already know what you need to tell the reader. An example of what I mean is in the story Shiloh two experienced Special Forces soldiers who know each other from being in the sand together are talking and one mentions Strelas. Both the characters involved already know exactly what a Strela is, but your average reader would have no idea. Thus the two characters wouldn't expand beyond the name, but the author needs to - and that's where a short note nearby is very handy.

In that case, I'd have one of the two character remember, via a short flashback, his first encounter with a Strela, as a way of fleshing it out without having to rely on a damn footnote!

Or go for the laughs and have one of the characters break the fourth wall and explain it to the readers.

"We were brainstorming, trying to come up with ways to help raise money for the NASCAR Foundation," he explained. "The NASCAR Foundation is a charitable organization that raises money to support multiple charities, especially those helping children."

"You know, George, that's an example of author intrusion, and is something your creator should never do in the story of your life."

"You're absolutely right, Frank. I'm ready to dump this crappy story and go find some porn!"

via a short flashback, his first encounter with a Strela, as a way of fleshing it out without having to rely on a damn footnote!

Which will still break up the story flow at that point, while not giving the reader the opportunity to skip over the note. A flash back will also need a lot more words than a simple note.

Which will still break up the story flow at that point, while not giving the reader the opportunity to skip over the note. A flash back will also need a lot more words than a simple note.

Showing always uses more words than telling. That's why so many authors tell so much. Stating it "uses a lot more words" doesn't mean much. If it's worth including (and not including footnotes in a fictional story warrants serious consideration), you include it because it aids the story. It it doesn't, you cut it. Frankly, anything which hasn't been defined within the scope of the story should end up on the cutting room floor.

Footnotes are for history and science books, NOT fiction! How many novels currently on your bookshelf have footnotes?

We've discussed how to handle these situation ad nauseam, stating that authors should simply 'add a footnote' is simply giving new or uncertain authors terrible advice.

There are circumstances when footnotes may be required (such as when you're citing epigraph (quote) sources), but it's not something I would suggest as a matter of course.

Showing always uses more words than telling. That's why so many authors tell so much. Stating it "uses a lot more words" doesn't mean much.

Using excessive words to explain something simple that not everyone needs to know is more a waste of space than anything else.

If you ignore something odd readers don't like it, so you give them an explanation in as easy a way as possible. a one or two line note is much better than a five line flashback which will break up the story flow more than a note will.

Using excessive words to explain something simple that not everyone needs to know is more a waste of space than anything else.

That's why you don't show all the time. "Show don't tell" does not mean never tell.

If someone steps outside you might tell the reader it's snowing hard. But if the blizzard is an integral part of the story/action, you show it.

Using excessive words to explain something simple that not everyone needs to know is more a waste of space than anything else.

I wasn't dictating the techniques use, merely offering it as an option if you wanted an opportunity to delve into the characters background. It was simply another way of getting to the same point.

That said, your use of footnotes is valid in select cases. I just wouldn't recommend it, as it's not a widely recognized usage in modern fiction. As you noted, it's also easily overlooked (missed) and tends to yank readers out of the story, all of which argue against it's use. Thus I'd work hard to avoid using it, even if it requires more text.

We've discussed how to handle these situation ad nauseam, stating that authors should simply 'add a footnote' is simply giving new or uncertain authors terrible advice.

No story should be buried in notes, but they should be used where the add to the story, and in as unobtrusive away as possible. It all comes back to what's best way to include the required information with the minimal disruption to the story and the reader.

If I go to the chapter end to read the explanation I have extreme difficulty finding the original place again

Which is why I said it should be close to the actual text. I write in a 6 x 9 inch book format, and when I feel a note is needed it's at the bottom of the book page or the end of the scene, whichever is closest to the right text.

We haven't yet mentioned the Close out note those should go at the end of the chapter because there intention is to close out something relevant but not important enough to bring up again later, so you close it off. An example of that is in Mack at the end of the sub-chapter on his father's funeral I have a short 2 line note about the inquest into his father's funeral so I don't leave the readers wondering what happened about it.

We haven't yet mentioned the Close out note those should go at the end of the chapter because there intention is to close out something relevant but not important enough to bring up again later, so you close it off. An example of that is in Mack at the end of the sub-chapter on his father's funeral I have a short 2 line note about the inquest into his father's funeral so I don't leave the readers wondering what happened about it.

Again, that's the wrong place/way to include it, and however short it may be, it amounts to an 'info dump', rather than including it as a part of the larger story.

I typically wrap up any loose ends in my story in my epilogues (which many authors don't use, as they're generally restricted to sci-fi and historical dramas), but I fold them into a general recollection of what happened after the close of the story. That's a fitting way of detailing what happened to individual orphaned story threads.

Dominion Son's suggestion about a flashback

Personally, I find a flashback in the middle of a story very disturbing and they break up the story too much. I've used a flashback at the start or the end of a story, but work hard to avoid having any within the story. I've seen too many good stories destroyed because a flashback disrupted it too much.

Personally, I find a flashback in the middle of a story very disturbing and they break up the story too much. I've used a flashback at the start or the end of a story, but work hard to avoid having any within the story. I've seen too many good stories destroyed because a flashback disrupted it too much.

A flashback needn't be a huge endeavor.

John reflected on his first encounter with the Strela. He was a new recruit, recently stationed to the planet's surface, and ...

It can be as simple as a couple lines to a few paragraphs, without yanking the reader out of the current story setting, and does help to shed new light on individual actors and their motivations.

While difficult to pull off, you shouldn't avoid it simply because it's been badly handled in the past.

Dominion Son's suggestion about a flashback to explain Strela would cover the question well - I have seen this or similar used several times

Sorry, but DS may take exception to that, as I was the one who suggested it.

If I go to the chapter end to read the explanation I have extreme difficulty finding the original place again. I no longer bother which means that the author's well meaning explanation is ignored

Maybe we should petition Lazeez to include abbr or abbreviation tag (so when you pause over a reference, an explanation will pop up like you see on Amazon). That would certainly be a useful addition, while not likely to be overused.

Still, it's more coding for something which wouldn't be widely used. :(

You're slow, I already took exception to it. :)

No one's ever accused me of being quick on the uptake, which is why I keep trying techniques most authors studiously avoid. However, what I excess in is providing insights which others simply never notice, which often provide alternate story threads.

Besides, I don't camp out on the site (despite all appearances to the contrary), so for these longer threads, I'll often address a couple days posts all at once, moving chronologically through them all instead of trying to remember the various points I wanted to argue until the very end. (which is why I have so many posts running together)

all our other ammo

Infantry are nothing but pack mules, so don't forget the food and water. If other ammo was not a reference to it, add in your share of the SAW ammo and motor rounds, if needed. :)

They can't kill the Boche, Krauts, Nips, ragheads etc by slinging bread rolls at them

True, but they can force feed them MREs. :)

Ah yes, the MRE (Meal Ready to Eat), three lies for the price of one. :)

When I came back home (to where my parents settled), my mother took the opportunity to clean out her pantry, feeding me everything she wouldn't eat herself. That included 20-year-old pudding mixes and 30-year-old MRE (left over from Vietnam, which my father collected to use while hunting). Luckily, he didn't bother with the MRE meals, but rather the snacks, which aren't as bad and are relatively easy to eat.

They can't kill the Boche, Krauts, Nips, ragheads etc by slinging bread rolls at them

You're lucky to have not tried any of the rolls baked by my ex-wife - they can be used as deadly projectiles. The crusts were so hard they could almost be used as armour.

rolls baked by my ex-wife

Were they like a bun in the oven? :)

Were they like a bun in the oven? :)

No, crusted rolls with crusts like armour plate.

You mean the kind that, if they rolled off the table and landed on your foot, would break your toe?

and the rest of the foot.

VeryWellAged in his stories about the Philippines uses footnotes, most of the time to translate what a character has said in a local language. Many of his stories are here on SOL, most of his latest stories are on ASSTR since he uses girls under 14 as characters involving sex. The ASSTR ones also use highlighted words to take you to another site, for example to give a recipe for a Philippine dish in the story or an advertisement for a location or vehicle mentioned in the story. The footnotes in the chapter are collected at the end of each chapter in numerical order.

That's another valid use for footnotes (or end-of-chapter notes), though I'd treat them as I do character lists, placing them at the end of the story, or as the first chapter while posting so readers can always look up words (or characters) they can't remember. If necessary, they can always open two simultaneous webpages in side-by-side tabs.

My argument with Ernest, is listing something he should have included in the story is a losing strategy, as few readers will ever glance at it (and will thus never understand the reference). In my own not-so humble opinion, it's worth wasting several pages just to create the context to understand something he can't be bothered explained in context.