Forum: Story Discussion and Feedback

Thanks for the link to the SOL NIS page. I think there a lot of stories there that I have not read yet.

I didn't know that. Makes sense though
I still would like to see him finish Rewind sometime in my lifetime. Great story like most of his others. One of my favourite authors. I'd re-read stories like Dance of a Lifetime, Heroes, Transcending the Role, Finding a Place and even Tammy at least one every year
Chris aka 1111

In general, no, because the sex would have to be explained as being a requirement of the job before hire, and most people wouldn't take the job. And those who would, may not be good at the other duties.

Pretty much this, it would have to be part of the job description. Although I could see ways it could be abused, particularly in an economic environment where an employer sees dozens of applicants for every job opening.

But it goes back to the ones most likely to offer said sexual services, at least initially, are likely going to be:
1) Unqualified for the job.
2) Not very attractive.

The other thing is that at least in many NiS settings, it doesn't suspend other laws. So Equal Opportunity Employment is still in play, so if you were a straight male looking for some eye candy sexxx-cretary material, and you get a gay male who is willing to meet the terms of employment and he's qualified...

If prostitution was legal would it then be legal to require sexual services from employees?

I would say NO for existing employees.

The one exception I could think of is: If the employee in question is agreeable to the change, then you're probably fine. But yeah, if the employee doesn't accept the change, you're in for some problems, unless there is some other deus ex machina going on within the storyline to explain why that option is working.

You're either dealing with a cultural shift/change that has occurred(mass mind control?) where people are somehow suddenly just fine with such things. (Wagner's NiS Premise almost borderlines this) Or you are dealing with some changes to law on the books that legalized what is going on.

A final option is some combination of the previous two, as many laws are a reflection of cultural expectations. So if the culture changes, the laws would presumably follow suit.

However, the problem is with a policy that requires employees to engage in acts of prostitution (i.e., the employee's wage is in part payment for sexual activities).

Well, so long as prostitution is legal where your company is at, if the employee is agreeable to the change, it would circle back to there not being anything legally speaking that would be likely to prevent such a change.

Unless the sex-workers union somehow had language put in saying that a sex worker could only be a sex worker and not be expected to perform other duties.

Regarding Program Punishments, author's have pretty much explored the range of it, or simply ignored it. Although the BDSM side doesn't tend to show up very often, unlike in Karen's initial opening story.

Beyond that, dystopian and/or hedonistic tends to be favored. They almost all tend to point out and play out the fact that the Programs stated goals, and its methods seem to often be at odds with each other.

Although sometimes you'll see the nudist rather than hedonist take turn up, but those are very rare. When the "nudist view" or perspective does turn up, it's usually to point out the cross-purposes the Program is working towards. As part of its initial stated purpose and objective reads like something most Nudists would support, or even write. Up until you get to the forced nudity, and you certainly lose most (strict) nudists once you start getting into public displays of sexuality. (The hedonists are another matter) As most nudists go to great lengths to try to disconnect the two concepts from each other, while NiS is almost attempting to weld them together permanently.

2] It really does seem to me that the idea of the Progrm [according to most stories] was/is to make most girls into sluts. To force them to experience the 'joys of being a slut', so that many of them would decide that slutdum is a good way to live if there are no STD and babies as a result. The original story by Karen Wagner assumed that most girls are really submissives at heart and just need a nudge for them up to wake up to that fact. [Not true of course, except for 5% to 10% of girls.] Other stories later just assumed most girls are natural sluts.

I don't know about all of them being submissive, even in Karen's take. You also have to keep in mind that in a school situation, the students are in an inherently submissive situation in regards to the teachers in the first place. So even if the specific person in question isn't normally submissive, they're going to have to bend a little in regards to what the teachers want in many cases.

But yes, in the Wagner-verse, it is full on sexual liberation and pushing of boundaries as well as comfort zones for the female students in particular. It's very much putting hedonism on a scale of 1 to 10, and dialing it up to 11.

It also is inherently sexist, and that kind of was the point, I believe. After a person turns 21, only women are allowed to continue being nude in Public. (Objectification of the female form) Accounts of women using their sexuality and "feminine wiles" to "get their way" on various things(sexual politics, more female objectification), only boys being allowed to get relief in class because of "blue balls"(which later iterations of NiS stories made more "equal opportunity"so the girls could get relief as well. Again, at least until it was "equalized" the boys sexual needs were paramount, the girls "didn't matter"). and so forth.

As to the "natural sluts" I think a lot of that goes to what a person wants to define as being "slutty" and some set a higher bar than others. Within the context of Reality, I would tend to believe that there is a very large number (of most devoutly religious) women who literally have no idea what good sex is. Because they've never had it.

They've been socially conditioned to not (directly/clearly) communicate their wants and desires to their (male) sex partners, and in many cases have low expectations to begin with. (Rightfully so, the female body is generally a lot harder to bring to sexual climax than the male body, and young men in particular are usually very poorly informed on the finer points, which gets compounded when their partner doesn't tell them what's working, and what isn't)

Further, particularly with the religious in many cases, they've been taught that "good girls don't like sex" so even if they DO know what good sex is. Because they've had good sex, they're then filled with self-loathing because they liked it. Which then creates all kinds of nasty when they then start avoiding it, even though they want more of it.

So when you do finally end up with a sexually active woman who knows what good sex is. Doesn't loathe herself for having and enjoying sex, and is willing to pursue more of it, just like their male counterparts. Why is it that she is the one who is the "slut" while the male is simply "normal" in doing the same thing from the other side?

While some versions of the NiS Stories do have indications that it may be trying to turn them into naked sex-addicts, most of them seem to be more on the order of discovering sex, and discovering that they enjoy it, and that they don't need to be ashamed of their enjoying it. That's healthy enough, and practically every NiS story seems to stop right about there, at least for the main characters. Now other students may run afoul of the Federal NiS types and end up closer to the Sex-Addict side of things, if they're lucky. But those are the stories they play into the grand conspiracy of NiS being a means for human sex-trafficking.

3] The stories ignore the difference between girls and boys to some extent. Especially, the Program officials seem to oblivious to the differences.

I'm not quite sure what you mean by this. The NiS Program, in particular the Wagner version of it, seems to go to great lengths to play up the "separate, but equal" political construct played out in an overtly sexual context. They point out the differences, and they play them up, usually to the detriment of the female student(unless they're truly (hyper-sexual) exhibitionists to start with, or just otherwise highly mentally resilient).

thank you for your kind reply. 2 things.

1] In my post I always said "most girls", I never said "all".

2] I regards to your reply to my 3rd point -- Let me explain my thinking better. I think that boys and girls are different. I think that there is a 'thing' that we call human nature. And that part of human nature is the act that boys/men and girls/women are different in some ways and that 'sex' is one of the main ways.

So, in NIS the boys will see it as a great opportunity and girls may be split, with some hating it and some going with the flow. The Program officials always seem surprise that boys get out of hand in the early going. Some girl has to ask them "How can you have been so clueless and or stupid?" I understand that it is a story and so dramatic is better, but every story I have read [about 30] there is not any or enough training about what is and is not OK to do "now". This leads to drama, but are officials that stupid?

Oh BTW, I personally [as an grownup-boy] think that sluts are given a bad rap. Boys should not disrespect them because this is the surest way to not get any more fun with them. Girls, OTOH, are enforcing the double standard because they can't compete with sluts so they have to disgrace them to reduce their numbers.

. . It has often been said that men want to marry a woman who is a lady in public and a whore [but slut would be more accurate] in the bedroom.

So, in NIS the boys will see it as a great opportunity and girls may be split, with some hating it and some going with the flow. The Program officials always seem surprise that boys get out of hand in the early going. Some girl has to ask them "How can you have been so clueless and or stupid?" I understand that it is a story and so dramatic is better, but every story I have read [about 30] there is not any or enough training about what is and is not OK to do "now". This leads to drama, but are officials that stupid?

This one gets complicated. Some of this is present day "rape culture" being demonstrated. Where men/boys "lose control" of themselves sexually "she was asking for it" due to how she was dressed, what she was (not) wearing, etc. The reality for nearly all of those men is they were in fact "in control" the entire time, they just found what they considered to be either a good excuse for their actions, or believed they'd be able to get away with it by other means. (Successfully blame the victim for what happened.// Parents will make it "go away."// The victims and/or law enforcement won't track it back to them, etc.)

So a lot of NiS stories end up in a "present day" (or even recent past) setting where female nudity is still a new and unusual thing. Seeing female sexuality in public and in person even more so. While in the "Wagner-verse" female nudity is "common enough" in many areas, even if it isn't seen everywhere. Which may make "in person" exceedingly rare for some, but they're undoubtedly aware of it all the same.

Even most of the "highly sheltered" children would be hard pressed not to be aware of it going on. Although their personal expectations may be heavily skewed to say the least.

But getting back to "boys vs girls" on sexuality. I'm more inclined to say they're both about equally spread across the sexual spectrum. Although there is some research starting to suggest women might be slightly more predisposed towards bisexuality(and/or "sexual empathy"--so they're possibly wired to be bigger voyeurs than even the men in some ways), possibly as a defense mechanism(to help them lubricate prior to "the male" getting to them). What the bigger difference is between boys and girls, in particular in the present day is:

1) "Rape culture" (it's the woman's fault a man "loses control" sexually)

2) Women are brought up, often from an early age, getting directly and indirectly warned about the consequences of sex, as they're the ones who would end up pregnant.

While Wagner's NiS setting (and the broader NiS setting in general) is mixed on "Rape culture" given the strong implication that when a woman is naked or being overtly sexual, men(and some women) can't help ("loss of control" being implied) but give them "what they want." (Although the alternate is the ones watching retain (self-)control, liked what they saw, and want more of it, so they're more than happy to encourage more of it. Which naturally makes it logical to give the woman what she wants if her request isn't unreasonable.) As well as the infamous "reasonable request" which often is anything but. (But does play well into the "in control, and want more of it")

However, in that same context, those women did evidently get what they wanted, and no indication is given they received anything unwanted(or at least, unexpected by them) in return. So maybe that woman seeking the bank loan had an orgy with the bank officers in addition to going in there naked, so long as she expected that outcome and was "fine with it" there isn't much to be said... At least so long as the board wasn't actively creating that situation to start with, and ironically, wasn't actually a decisive factor. (Kind of like playing golf today)

So operating in a realm where "rape culture" is less of a thing, and there is little to no need to worry about "the consequences" as both pregnancies and STDs(which women are also more vulnerable to; at least when it comes to heterosexual pairings) are non-issues then we're right back to women have few to no reasons for remaining restrained sexually, and can let their sexuality "out to play" just like their male counterparts.

So in that respect, a girl working her way through an entire basketball team at that point should be less significant in that setting than a boy working his way through an entire team in reality today. The boy can get the team pregnant or give them STDs, the girl in this reverse scenario can't do either.

Of course, culture is one of the last things to adjust, so even it that is technically true, that doesn't make it so socially. In that respect, it turns NiS into a social engineering effort with dubious ethics, not that anyone claimed it was particularly ethical to start with.

Forcing people into situations where they'll have to assess their new reality without the veneer of their preconceptions is just asking for trouble. Particularly if their preconceptions and "social conditioning" is deeply entrenched in their minds. It becomes doubly hazardous if they're sexually dysfunctional in some way.

Forcing people into situations where they'll have to assess their new reality without the veneer of their preconceptions is just asking for trouble. Particularly if their preconceptions and "social conditioning" is deeply entrenched in their minds. It becomes doubly hazardous if they're sexually dysfunctional in some way.

Haha. Wrote my way into a circle. The above, by itself is almost a justification for The Program by itself. As NiS "allows that confrontation with today's 'new (nude) society' to happen within the 'controlled environment' of their school."

Where they have administrators, counselors, teachers, parents, and fellow class mates to "support" them through the ordeal instead of encountering it once they graduate from high school and move out on their own where they have little to no external support network available. At least, that's the theory. (And one that is only briefly touched on in Wagner's initial storyline)

"We're from the government, and we're here to help."