Do you prefer to read stories that are written in 1st-person or 3rd?
I'm asking as an author, but I didn't put this in the Author's forum because I want to know the reader's preference, not the author's.
First-person is when the narrating character uses "I". I went to the store. I thought she liked me. It all started when I graduated high school. For simplicity, 3rd is everything else.
Thanks.
1st person if the protagonist is Male, in erotic settings.
3 person for female protagonists, and non erotic stories. I can never read a 1st person POV female.
The homophobia runs deep in this one.
For me, I have no problem reading or writing fictional characters, regardless of gender. They're fiction, so it's really not personal, just as I have no problems with stories with dicks, as long as they're not pointed at me.
The homophobia runs deep in this one.
What's wrong with you?
Just because I don't enjoy a story in female POV doesn't mean that I have an irrational fear of those who prefer relationships with their own sex.
Just because I don't enjoy a story in female POV
Aha, so it's not just 1st-person from a female POV. It's from a female POV even it's 3rd-limited.
Good to know. The short story I'm working on is from a female POV in 3rd-limited and I was wondering if I should change it to 1st-person. Your response got me nervous. But in your case it wouldn't matter. Thanks for clarifying that.
I have no problems with stories with dicks, as long as they're not pointed at me.
I'm like that with guns.
homophobia
That's not the correct word for an inability to empathise with or relate to women.
AJ
ANYTHING other than those very few stories actually written in 2nd person.
(Or the ones that don't know what 2nd person is and list it as one of the tags.)
I didn't put this in the Author's forum because I want to know the reader's preference, not the author's
Okay, so I'm not allowed a dog in this fight :-;
Unfortunately it's not easy to test, but judging by the scores for G Younger's 'Stupid Boy' series vis-a-vis the scores for his 'Better Man' series, I'd say SOL readers prefer 1st over 3rd.
AJ
For me, I don't think I have a strong preference, it will depend on the story.
Some stories need to follow multiple characters who aren't always together. While this can be managed in first person, it's often easier in third.
Some stories need to follow multiple characters who aren't always together.
Yeah, I wanted to keep my question simple. Not technical. The assumption is the story is told from a single character's point of view (POV).
The assumption is the story is told from a single character's point of view (POV).
Either don't leave unstated assumptions or don't be surprised when people answer who don't share your assumptions.
Either don't leave unstated assumptions
I didn't ask it in the author's forum. The question was targeted toward readers who may not have the technical knowledge of writing fiction, in this case, POV.
I originally went into great detail on 3rd-limited, 3rd-limited-multiple, omniscient, and the head-hopping I often see on SOL, but deleted all that from the post when I considered my audience.
So I asked a simple question. Basically, do you as a reader prefer stories written in 1st-person?
So I asked a simple question. Basically, do you as a reader prefer stories written in 1st-person?
And I answered as a reader. As a reader I consider the assumption you replied to me with as relevant to the question regardless of a readers technical knowledge. As you stated it in reply to me, it does not require technical knowledge of POV to understand.
Having left that assumption unstated, you have no basis to complain about answers that make a different assumption.
Having left that assumption unstated, you have no basis to complain about answers that make a different assumption.
I didn't complain.
If the POV jumps back and forth, then it pretty well has to be third person, unless one or more of the characters is going to do some significant introspection.
Other than that, I really don't have a preference.
It would be nice seeing the reader stats on that, though as far as I know, there's no way of gathering such data.
there's no way of gathering such data
I'm trying to gather it here. But since it morphed into the technical stuff in writing, I don't think I'll get much input from readers.
But since it morphed into the technical stuff in writing, I don't think I'll get much input from readers.
As a reader of this site, my preference is for 3rd person past over 1st person past. But either are way better than present tense narrative; I think that Ernest Bywater, for example, significantly handicapped himself by using 1st person present, and when he rewrote others' stories to be in this style (for example, Shiloh) I found them a much more dull read - especially when some past tense narrative is encountered.
(As others have said, using past tense for narrative does not mean dialogue has to be past tense.
(As I'm a Brit, that word 'dialogue' is correctly splelt above - or do the site administrators think all posts should use Northern American English? Oops, have I just triggered more thread drift?)
First person past makes a lot of sense to me for many stories. It's an implied memoir or the like. First person present is a pain in the ass, in the same way that watching a POV-shot TV show or movie is often a pain in the ass. I have nothing against 3rd-person limited, but (for me) it unnecessarily complicates getting inside the head of the character. If there's a lot of that in the story, 1st-past is just easier.
Dialogue definitely needn't be past tense itself. One is recounting a conversation. If that conversation is itself about the past, it's past-tense. If it's 'current,' it's not.
I prefer 'dialogue,' and I'm an American who generally uses North American English. On the other hand, I think 'splelt' is not spelt right :)
'splelt' is not spelt right :)
Yep, a typo - which I shan't correct, as then your post would seem odd. (In my mind, typos and spelling errors are differ but overlapping concepts.)
I think that Ernest Bywater, for example, significantly handicapped himself by using 1st person present
A number of his present tense stories contain occasional lapses into past tense. I wonder whether he was having a head/heart-type struggle.
AJ
Isn't that the definition of 1st-person?
I've seen many SOL stories with multiple 1st-person protagonist, and haven't liked a single one of them for reasons I've discussed before.
Isn't that the definition of 1st-person?
No. A 3rd-person-limited story is told from a single character's POV.
Not necessarily. You can have 3rd limited with multiple POV characters. You just have them one at a time. In fact, if you're going to have multiple POV characters, I suggest using 3rd limited. You can do it in 1st, but it's very hard to do well. I've seen even very good writers fail at making clear whose head a given chapter is in.
Not necessarily. You can have 3rd limited with multiple POV characters.
If you back track the posts that led to the one you commented on, I said, "Yeah, I wanted to keep my question simple. Not technical. The assumption is the story is told from a single character's point of view (POV)."
Later I mentioned there is 3rd-person limited multiple. But my original post had to do with a single character POV — do people prefer that to be 1st or 3rd (limited).
I've read several SoL stories with multiple first-person protagonists that work for me. Mostly, they limit how many perspective swaps happen and put it on a very obvious boundary (chapter works well, for instance).
I've also seen this used in romance novels. I don't read a lot of those, but enough to have seen it. In general, the idea is that each participant in the romance gets some time as the 1st-person narrator. That can be highly effective for the reader. Person X wonders what person Y thinks of them, or why Y is doing thus-and-so. Y gets to fill in the blanks while trying figure X out. The reader is often yelling at both of them 'just figure it out, already!'
Many write in 1st entirely, thinking it's more 'immediate', which I'm not sure I buy. But I write in 3rd, because it's easier to describe what's NOT observed by the 1st-person protagonist.
My first novel was in 1st-person, and after that I swore, "Never Again!". But that's just me.
So I'll read 1st-person stories, depending on the story, but it'd better be a damn good story. Still, ANYTHING is better than 2nd-person stories.
Still, ANYTHING is better than 2nd-person stories.
I'm not going to argue with that. :)
Do you prefer to read stories that are written in 1st-person or 3rd?
For me as both a writer and reader, it all really depends on the story itself. I do not have any strong preference of one over the other.
However, I always chuckle when I find one that bounces back and forth between the two.
However, I always chuckle when I find one that bounces back and forth between the two.
As an author, I have written a story that is mostly in first person, but has a few scenes in third person for information that I want the reader to find out before the narrator.
one that bounces back and forth between the two.
In particular, a story which was originally written 1st-person but where the author subsequently changed his (normally) mind and changed everything to third-person, well almost everything.
Either first or third (limited) is equally good, as long as it's sustained. If you do switch viewpoints (which I dislike), it works better with third person.
You didn't ask, but I prefer past tense.
You didn't ask, but I prefer past tense.
For me, first or third are fine. I won't read present tense narrative except in second person, though.
For me, first or third are fine. I won't read present tense narrative except in second person, though.
As Inigo Montoya said, "you keep using that word, I do not think it means what you think it means,"
1st person: "I am going to the store."
2nd person: "You are going to the store."
3rd person: "He is going to the store."
A story written in 2nd person would consist entirely of the author telling me, the reader, what I am doing. I believe that you possibly meant 2nd POV. Which is second Point Of View. That would generally have two, or more, people switching back and forth, telling the story from their POV. However, in each case. it would probably be written in first person.
Which is second Point Of View. That would generally have two, or more, people switching back and forth, telling the story from their POV
That is not what 2nd POV is. I believe others think that and that's why the 2nd-pov tag is misused.
When someone says "1st-person" or "2nd-person" the "POV" is implied. So it's 2nd-person POV" or simply "2nd POV."
"two, or more, people switching back and forth, telling the story from their POV" is not 2nd-POV, it's head-hopping. That's where the term came from. The author is hopping between characters' heads. Now if the author switches POV at a scene change, then it's okay and is usually done in 3rd-person-limited-multiple. 3rd-person-limited is like 1st-person in that the story is told from a single character's POV, except the pronouns are different. When you add "multiple" to it, you're now saying the story is told from multiple characters' POVs. But not within a scene. And then you have omniscient where, within a scene, the reader can be told what any character is thinking, feeling, etc. But that's because no character is the POV character. The omniscient narrator is telling the story and he is all-knowing. But in omni, the narrator can tell you what a character is thinking, but you can't have direct thoughts. Direct thoughts are only allowed when a character is a POV character.
This is the kind of detail I was originally writing when I posted my question but deleted it. It's rather technical and my question was directed to readers who have no knowledge of or interest in this technical detail.
By the way, I find keeping POV straight to be the hardest part of writing fiction, and I believe it's what's technically done wrong the most by SOL authors.
Not quite. 2nd person isn't "You are going to the store", as that's dialogue.
2nd is when you write: "I am going to the story," you said. As the narration is all 2nd-person.
Not trying to pick a fight about this, but I HAVE read at least one short story on this site that went something like this.
You came into the room and put down your briefcase. You approached me and handed me the mail.
It was not dialog. The entire story was like that. Well, the 2 or 3 pages that I read.look up 2nd person writing and see what it says. I THINK you will find that I am correct.
You came into the room and put down your briefcase. You approached me and handed me the mail.
It was not dialog. The entire story was like that. Well, the 2 or 3 pages that I read.look up 2nd person writing and see what it says. I THINK you will find that I am correct.
The 1st sentence is correct for 2nd-POV.
The 2nd sentence is not. It has both 2nd-POV (you) and 1st-POV (me) in it.
As Inigo Montoya said, "you keep using that word, I do not think it means what you think it means,"
Actually, I knew what 2nd person POV meant. It's used infrequently, and used well even less frequently. I remember reading one short story here on SOL that did a nice job with it, but I don't remember who wrote it. 2nd person is the reason I gave up on Tom Robbins' Half Asleep in Frog Pajamas, no matter how much I usually enjoy his prose.
Actually, I knew what 2nd person POV meant.
My understanding of it is that the single biggest use of it in a broadly defined fiction space is for table top RPGs, where it makes sense.
Second person narration is also used in computer games descended from Colossal Cave Adventure, like Zork. ("You are standing outside a small house. There is a stream here. What do you do?") Another use was for those "Choose your own story" books that seemed like a cool gimmick when I was 7 but quickly turned out to be terrible stories.
Second person narration tells the reader what they do, while the actual reader thinks, "I would never do that." In a choose-your-own-adventure or a computer game, the reader gets some choice (as do the players in a tabletop RPG).
In a story with sex, second person narration requires the reader to accept that they have whatever body parts the story describes. ("Your dick grows hard," or "You fantasize about how that would feel in your pussy," or "Your antennae tingle.") That usually makes the story feel like wearing shoes that don't fit.
Second person narration is also used in...
I note that I said "the single biggest use", not the only use.
Exactly. There's no way I will read a story that tells me what I'm doing or how I feel. It's a sure way to get me to immediately click on something else.
It's basically an insult to the reader: "You don't have the intelligence/empathy/imagination to identify with any of my characters".
Which of course is really an admission that the writer doesn't have the skill to make their cardboard characters relatable or interesting.
For me, this is a really good reference. In a good roleplaying game, 'you' do a bunch of things. This can create an enormous amount of engagement. It's not 'I'm manipulating this character to go fight a dragon,' it's 'I'm fighting a dragon!'
But, if the game forces you into a questline that causes you to do something your character would never do, it completely breaks immersion. There are quests I refuse to do in some games simply because my character would have to do things that would be offensive to them.
Now, one can say that you're being asked to roleplay someone who would do those things, but that still makes the connection between character and player weaker, and begs the question of whether (for instance) a questline where your character behaves in a morally fraught manner and knowingly uses demonic forces to questionable ends should even be offered to characters of classes where such behavior would be abhorrent.
Obviously, the same is true for stories. One can read the 'you' as meaning 'the sort of 'you' my main character is', but that breaks immersion and forces the reader into a quasi-third-person stance anyway.
I'm not sure what the problem with tenses is, as sentences or paragraphs vary tense depending on circumstances. So, in a 'past-tense story', is EVERYTHING always written in past tense?
I've never read such a biography or history text written like that. I suspect you are confusing past tense with past-PERFECT tense (ex: "He had run" vs. "He ran").
o, in a 'past-tense story', is EVERYTHING always written in past tense?
No. As I said, present tense narrative is what I dislike (I more than dislike it in third person.) Present tense dialog isn't an issue.
Though those that switch from 1st-Omni to 1st-limited are also pretty annoying, merely because they're so inconsistent.
There are more than a couple of "authors" on SOL that write stuff like this:
"Joe was alone in the house. He made a cup of coffee and I took a sip..."
Do that kind of thing more than once on the first page of your story, and I'm not reading any further.
"Joe was alone in the house. He made a cup of coffee and I took a sip..."
Ahhh, writing from the POV of a dog/cat/spider....
Ahhh, writing from the POV of a dog/cat/spider....
Do spiders 'drink' to hydrate? Rachel, my kitchen window spider, seems to get everything he needs out of the bodies of his victims.
AJ
Rachel, my kitchen window spider, seems to get everything he needs out of the bodies of his victims.
I have a sneaking suspicion that Rachel is female.
I have a sneaking suspicion that Rachel is female.
After seeing him suck his victims dry, I named him Rachel after the UK Chancellor who is sucking our economy dry. After he underwent a moult, I looked up his species (Garden Spider) from google images and found an idiot's guide on how to establish a spider's sex. He has the two 'boxing glove' organs at the front so, belatedly, I'm pretty sure he's male. :-)
AJ
I typed Rachel's colour scheme into Google Images. Google AI said there's no such spider native to the UK - could it be American? Then, scrolling past the AI response, I found loads of pictures of Rachel-alikes.
If AI is replacing humans, God help us all!
I saved Rachel's life the other day. An evil-looking reddish-brown spider (possibly a woodlouse spider) was slowly and ominously advancing on his web. I trapped and deported the interloper. Rachel rewarded me by offing a bluebottle.
AJ
Rachel's sulking at the moment. I rescued a ladybird that was slowly becoming enwebbed, thus depriving him of a meal.
AJ
One author, who I won't fat-shame, does that all the time. His stories on SOL are clustered around the 7.0 rating. And judging by the comments, the books are popular on zbookstore.
AJ
I am generally fine with either 1st or 3rd person, but I dislike stories that switch between mutliple narrators.
but I dislike stories that switch between mutliple narrators.
Even at scene/chapter changes?
I believe most (all?) romance novels are written in 3rd-limited-multiple which means some scenes are from the heroine's POV and others from the hero's. Thrillers are often like that too. Most of the scenes are from the main character's POV, but other scenes are from the POVs of other characters telling the reader stuff the POV character doesn't know. That's often critical to create suspense.
In "The Da Vinci Code," I remember most of each chapter was from the MC's POV, but at the end of the chapter there were two scenes from other characters' POVs to let the reader know what was going on away from the MC.
On SOL, many authors jump back and forth among characters incorrectly. I hope that's what you're talking about.
I believe most (all?) romance novels are written in 3rd-limited-multiple
Some years back I was gifted a bag of romance paperbacks, a step above Mills & Boone but nothing really deep. They were all rather formulaic and written from the female POV.
The females were strong, independent characters with professional careers, but they all ended up needing a hero to rescue them. Cue mushy ending. :-(
AJ
I've read several romance novels written with each participant having their own 1st-person chapters (often alternating). Lots of 'I', lots of inner dialogue. Definitely not 3rd-person. Each of them gets to tell the reader stuff the other one doesn't know, but the reader is limited to things one or the other romance participant knows.
One of the first books of that style I came across was by a rather famous author, Robert A Heinlein in Number of the Beast. Enjoyed it very much. I liked the rediscovered earlier version of the book published as Flight of the Pankera almost as much. But very few of his works are not in my reread periodically list.
Hmm. I read Heinlein constantly from about age 12. Not sure I made if far enough into this one to judge, but here are two competing takes from Wikipedia:
Sue K. Hurwitz wrote in her review for the School Library Journal that it is "a catalog of Heinlein's sins as an author; it is sophomoric, sexist, militantly right wing, and excessively verbose" and commentary that the book's ending was "a devastating parody of SF conventions—will have genre addicts rolling on the floor. It's garbage, but right from the top of the heap."[3]
Heinlein buff David Potter explained on alt.fan.heinlein, in a posting reprinted on the Heinlein Society, that the entire book is actually "one of the greatest textbooks on narrative fiction ever produced, with a truly magnificent set of examples of how not to do it right there in the foreground, and constant explanations of how to do it right, with literary references to people and books that did do it right, in the background." He noted that "every single time there's a boring lecture or tedious character interaction going on in the foreground, there's an example of how to do it right in the background."[4]
~ JBB
Sorry for being unclear - but you are right it is the incorrect jump back and forth between characters that throws me.
It does not matter to me. Thinking back on many of my favorite books, the majority have been written in third person omniscient.
I do not like second person, especially in smut. I did like Half-Asleep in Frog Pajamas, but less so than Robbins' other books.
As long as it's not 2nd person, I'm good. If you're writing in 2nd person, and it's not a CYOA, do us all a favor and don't.