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Constructive Criticism for: A Military Retiree

Marius-6 🚫

This story (title) has an immediate appeal to me, as I (too) am (medically) retired from the US armed forces.

https://storiesonline.net/s/31572/a-military-retiree

I didn't notice any spelling or grammar errors. The story seems to have real potential. The character could be quite interesting. However, I believe the story could be much better if written in the present tense. I am not an expert in techniques, but the story seems to be written in the past tense but (to me) seems to be describing things in the present tense. Perhaps this is the author's intent, but it "pushed me out of the story" instead of "witnessing" events, it feels like the MC is telling me about them.

The story starts with the character in bed; but after a couple of sentences it goes into a "flashback" for most of the first chapter.

With minimal changes the story could begin with the events depicted in the flashback. I have much to learn as a writer. One of the things I have been taught is that it is rarely a good technique to begin with a flashback. In this story in particular, it begins with the MC's first day retired from the US Army; the "flashback" depicts events that are weeks or months (not described, and not necessary to define) before the MC's decision to retire.

I made a similar mistake writing one of my stories. My MC becomes medically retired from the USMC. In my first version I had him "flashback" to events while on an aircraft flying home. A friend who is a professional editor read my first dozen chapters. She suggested that instead of having (a) flashback(s), depict the MC being notified of the death of his grandfather, which starts a chain of events relating to his retirement.

Similar to this story, I didn't have to change much, for everything was already written. Merely depict events as they occurred, rather than having the MC "tell" readers about them. Westside24 already has dialog in the story. It would just be a change of tense.

Similarly, after the flashback the author has his MC have a present tense conversation with his father. Then in past tense "tell" us about what his nephews are doing as he watches. It puts the reader at a remove from events. Perhaps that is Westside24's intent? I don't see a purpose for this. I believe it would be a better story if this story was written in the present tense; putting readers "in the story" instead of at a "distance" watching the story, or having events told to them.

I am offering this constructive criticism in the forum because the author does not have a link to PM to, nor is it possible to Review their story. (I am a Reviewer, but that option is blocked for this story.) From what I have read, Westside24 seems to make fewer spelling and grammar errors, than I have in what I have posted to SoL. However, I benefitted from advice I mentioned above.

My friend told me that many amateur writers make similar mistakes, writing in the past tense, at a remove or telling not showing. Westside24 may not want any feedback, nor desire to make any changes. I would still encourage others to read what seem to be very good stories (even if I think they could be improved). I am hoping this topic has more comments about ways for many authors to improve their stories.

Cheers.

Replies: Switch Blayde awnlee jawking REP Tw0Cr0ws

Switch Blayde 🚫

@Marius-6

it would be a better story if this story was written in the present tense; putting readers "in the story" instead of at a "distance" watching the story, or having events told to them.

I haven't read the story, but that statement isn't true. It has to do with "show don't tell" rather than present tense. Present tense stories are more immediate, but the reader can still be at a distance watching the story unfold and be told rather than shown.

A close third-person is how you get the reader to see the story through the character. Verbs that are called filter words like "saw" and "felt" and "heard" are not used. Those verbs are what has the reader watching the character do something instead of living the story through the character.

For example in, "Joe saw the car barreling at him. He jumped to the side," the reader is watching Joe seeing the car coming at him.

But take out the filter word and you can have something like, "The car barreled at Joe. He jumped to the side."

There is no distance between the reader and the action in the second one. The reader experiences the car coming at him. That's true whether the car "barrels" or "barreled" at him. People who like present tense say the action is happening right then. More immediate. For those who don't like present tense, it seems awkward to read because they are accustomed to years of reading past tense stories.

I'm no expert on writing close third-person so forgive my basic example. Here's an article on filter words that explains it better than me. Notice the examples are past tense.

Replies: Marius-6 Marius-6

Marius-6 🚫

@Switch Blayde

It has to do with "show don't tell" rather than present tense. Present tense stories are more immediate, but the reader can still be at a distance watching the story unfold and be told rather than shown.

A close third-person is how you get the reader to see the story through the character. Verbs that are called filter words like "saw" and "felt" and "heard" are not used. Those verbs are what has the reader watching the character do something instead of living the story through the character.

Thanks. You explained better than I did.

I am still learning how to write better. I am also learning better terms such as Close Third Person.

What I meant is the story starts on the first day of his retirement. Then hops back a few weeks to an incident that caused him to retire, then hops back to the first sentence.

My suggestion was that with almost no change the story could have started with the incident and consequences that resulted in his desire to retire. Then depict his first day retired, and go on from there.

My OP didn't explain myself well. However, subsequent posts indicate people are responding to what I intended.

I found the story to have a good premise. I find the author worth reading, but wanted to offer constructive criticism to make the story better.

Moreover, I made similar errors with my first story, and benefitted from constructive criticism, and rewriting to make my story flow better.

Thanks for the comments as I think this will help me improve my writing. I doubt the person I am commenting about is likely to change. However, I want to improve my writing, and many of these comments are beneficial for me, and I hope others too.

Replies: REP

REP 🚫

@Marius-6

I am reading and enjoying the story.

The thing I have a problem with is all the long flashbacks. There are so many flashbacks that they interrupt the flow of the story. The switch from the present to the past and return to the present is clearly indicated. After a long flashback, I find that I don't recall what was happening in the present. Some of the scenes in the present are short, so it feels like I spend more time in the MCs past than I do in his present.

It may have been a better approach to start the story in the past, present the essence of the events that led to the MC buying the land, and then continue in the MC's present with a few short flashbacks to emphasize certain events in the MCs past. But that is just my opinion.

Replies: Switch Blayde

Switch Blayde 🚫

@REP

There are so many flashbacks that they interrupt the flow of the story.

"Prince of Tides" has many flashbacks. I've only seen the movie, but I've heard the novel has even more flashbacks. They work great. But the flashbacks aren't long so you spend most of your time in the present. But the flashbacks give you an insight to why the present is the way it is. Excellently done in the movie and probably just as well done in the novel.

Replies: REP

REP 🚫
Updated:

@Switch Blayde

Damn - I confused A Military Retiree with another story I'm reading.

I am reading A Military Retiree and haven't found any problem so far.

To give you an idea of what I said about the other story, in one 3473-word chapter, there were 2445 words of flashback, which were split into 2 flashbacks.

Replies: REP

REP 🚫

@REP

A Military Retiree has a new chapter posted. Westside 24's story would improve with the input of a good editor.

While reading the second chapter, I realized that I had read the story before. After checking his Author Page, it appears that Westside 24 deleted the story and is posting it as a new story.

I have no problem with his doing that. I will continue to read the story for I don't recall the storyline.

Marius-6 🚫

@Switch Blayde

I'm no expert on writing close third-person so forgive my basic example. Here's an article on filter words that explains it better than me. Notice the examples are past tense.

Please post the link. It doesn't seem to be there as of 11 September 2023.

In my opinion, you (Switch Blayde), you write better than I do. While I don't agree with all of your posts in the forums, I do get something positive from many of them. (Even if it is only amusement.) I read the forums for entertainment, but also to learn and become a better writer.

Cheers!

Replies: Switch Blayde

Switch Blayde 🚫

@Marius-6

Please post the link.

I don't know why the link isn't there. I don't remember the article I found at the time so I can't post the link here. But if you Google something like "close third person filter words" you'll find articles on it.

awnlee jawking 🚫

@Marius-6

Similarly, after the flashback the author has his MC have a present tense conversation with his father.

Back from the flashback but not present tense - the father 'said' rather than 'says'.

I agree the story is heavy on the telling. That seems to be the author's style.

Lara's two teenage kids, Jenny and Dennis were a handful. Rather than talk to their uncle, they spent most of their time doing things with their iPhones.

Only one nephew, unless Jenny is a boy.

It was yesterday that Mark showed up unannounced at his parent's home which was located in a Chicago western suburb surprising them.

A single parent whose preferred pronouns are they/them? Actually the punctuation is wrong in at least three places.

AJ

REP 🚫

@Marius-6

but the story seems to be written in the past tense but (to me)

I don't recall any story that I have read that I would call present or future tense.

Narrative is commonly used to provide background information. Background information is a retelling of what happened in the past, so the passages should be phrased using past tense.

Dialog is a mix. First consider the dialog tag, which is used to identify the speaker. Past tense seems to always be used in writing the tag. I can't recall any tag that used present tense. (Can you recall a tag like – "She is saying, or She will say," being used with dialog in any story you have read.) The dialog is commonly written using present tense. However, other tenses are also used.

So, if a past tense tag is used with present tense dialog the indication is that the dialog was spoken in the past relative to some undefined reference point in the story.

So what is your opinion - does use of a past tense tag make the dialog paragraph past or present tense. Personally, I would say past tense.

That is why I consider all stories to be past tense.

Replies: Switch Blayde awnlee jawking richardshagrin Dicrostonyx

Switch Blayde 🚫

@REP

That is why I consider all stories to be past tense.

"Killing Lincoln" is written in present tense. It's about the assassination of Abe Lincoln which, of course, happened in the past, but it's written in present tense as if it is happening right now.

"The Hunger Games" is written in present tense. The first line of the novel is: "When I wake up, the other side of the bed is cold." One of the first dialogue is:

"Hey, Catnip," says Gail.

awnlee jawking 🚫

@REP

I don't recall any story that I have read that I would call present or future tense.

Seek out Ernest Bywater's stories. He was a strong advocate of writing using the present tense. Not my preference, but his stories have a lot of fans.

AJ

Replies: solitude

solitude 🚫

@awnlee jawking

Seek out Ernest Bywater's stories. He was a strong advocate of writing using the present tense. Not my preference, but his stories have a lot of fans.

Not my preference either - I find it jarring. He took over (with author's permission) a DiD story called Shiloh and converted it to present tense before extending it, and I found the result far less readable as a result: flatter and more impersonal. Obviously, just my opinion, ymmv.

Replies: REP

REP 🚫
Updated:

@solitude

found the result far less readable as a result: flatter and more impersonal.

I enjoyed most of Ernest's stories. However, I definitely agree with you for I found his writing style to be impersonal with little real human emotion.

richardshagrin 🚫

@REP

past tense.

We are all past tents, we live in bungalows now.

Replies: Dominions Son

Dominions Son 🚫

@richardshagrin

I live in a ranch style house, not a bungled ow.

Replies: richardshagrin

richardshagrin 🚫

@Dominions Son

ranch style

Cmsix strongly recommended ranch style beans.

Replies: NC-Retired

NC-Retired 🚫

@richardshagrin

And Wolf Brand chili.

On the grocery shelves I found both. Tried 'em. Yuck!

Dicrostonyx 🚫

@REP

I don't recall any story that I have read that I would call present or future tense.

It tends to go in and out of fashion. I recall it being fairly popular in sf/fantasy when I was young, but I'm not sure if it was the books of the time or the previous generation, so that could be anywhere from the 1950s to the 1990s.

For non-genre 20th century novels, John Updike and Margaret Atwood use present often. In fact, a lot of books that you tend to read in school are present tense, such as All Quiet on the Western Front by Erich Maria Remarque, As I Lay Dying by William Faulkner, and One Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest by Ken Kesey. Also, Fitzgerald switches between tenses in The Great Gatsby, with the parties being described in present tense to draw the reader into the scene while the overall narrative is past tense.

These days it's somewhat common in YA. It also was on the upswing in literary fiction about a decade ago, although I'm not sure if that's still true. Philip Pullman sparked a bit of a debate when complaining about the Man Booker Prize including present-tense novels in their listings (https://www.theguardian.com/global/2010/sep/18/philip-pullman-author-present-tense).

Tw0Cr0ws 🚫

@Marius-6

What I have noticed with some writers is their writing seems to be like a military After Action Report or recon report.
Like the narrator is a third party reporting to a fourth party on what they saw and heard the first and second party say and do, rather than the action from a participants eyes and ears.

Replies: REP

REP 🚫
Updated:

@Tw0Cr0ws

That sounds accurate to me.

The third party narrator is the third person POV. When using that POV, the narrator is describing the actions of the characters to the reader. Thus your 'first and second party' are the characters in the story, and the 'fourth party' is the reader.

'the action from a participants eyes and ears' would be the first person POV.

Replies: Switch Blayde

Switch Blayde 🚫

@REP

The third party narrator is the third person POV. When using that POV, the narrator is describing the actions of the characters to the reader.

Only with omniscient (which is usually 3rd-person, but can also be 1st-person).

3rd-person omniscient is what you're describing. The omni narrator tells the reader what every character is thinking, feeling, etc. The narrator is godlike and knows all.

3rd-person limited is the other 3rd-person. It's from only one character's POV (like 1st-person, but with different pronouns). 3rd-person limited multiple simply means you can change the POV character at a scene change. But when you're in that character's POV, you can only tell what that character is thinking, feeling, etc.

A close 3rd-person limited is the same as 3rd-person limited except you bring the reader closer to the POV character, have the reader see the story through the POV character (not distant like the reader is watching the character). That's where the filter words I mentioned recently come into play. You don't tell that the POV character saw something, you describe it so the reader sees it through the character's eyes, as if the reader was the character.

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Constructive Criticism for: A Military Retiree

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