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Plural or singular?

DBActive 🚫

I've been reading a story (Beth by Bronte Follower). One thing that I find jarring about it is that he(?) continually uses "panty" when referring to women's underwear. For example, he writes "she wore a blue panty," or "she took off her panty."
I have never heard a woman, or man, use that in reference to women's underwear. It is always "panties" or "pair of panties, except in two instances. I have seen the singular used in an ad such as "one panty free when you buy two." There it saves space.
Otherwise, I have only seen it used as a descriptor, as in "panty-clad ass," "panty shield" or "pantyhose."
To me, it's the same as "pants," "underpants" or "knickers," when referring to the item, it's always plural.
Am I wrong?

awnlee jawking 🚫

@DBActive

I'd use 'panties' too but that doesn't necessarily mean the author is wrong. I've occasionally come across people who use 'panty' so it may be a cultural thing.

Does it cause any ambiguity?

AJ

Switch Blayde 🚫

@DBActive

Am I wrong?

I believe so.

Depending on the sentence, I use "panties" or "panty."

"She wore a blue panties" sounds wrong to me (I, like the author, would use "panty"). "She wore blue panties" is correct, but when you include the "a", I think it becomes "panty."

Switch Blayde 🚫

@DBActive

I just googled it. Most say the undergarment is always plural and if you want to refer to one you say "a pair of panties."

The reason the author in the example had to use "panty" is because of the "a" without the "pair of."

Replies:   DBActive  awnlee jawking
DBActive 🚫
Updated:

@Switch Blayde

I agree that when you include the "a" you have to say either "panty" or "pair of panties".

The thing is that the author always (thousands of time in a very long story) uses "panty," including phrases like "she took her panty off" or "she wore a sheer panty." I simply have never heard anyone ever say that and find the use awkward at best.

Replies:   Switch Blayde
Switch Blayde 🚫
Updated:

@DBActive

and find the use awkward at best.

Good to know (for my future writing).

I would write: "She took her panties off." But would write: "She wore a sheer panty." I now know it should be: "She wore a pair of sheer panties."

Replies:   Grey Wolf
Grey Wolf 🚫

@Switch Blayde

I think it's panty' that's awkward, not the lack of 'a pair of'.

'She wore sheer panties' should be fine, at least in my opinion.

awnlee jawking 🚫

@Switch Blayde

I wonder whether using the singular emphasises the style rather than the instance.

I can just imagine a sales wonk saying something like, "This is our bikini style panty."

AJ

Replies:   Keet  Switch Blayde
Keet 🚫

@awnlee jawking

Fun fact:
In Dutch a 'panty' is what is called (panty)hose in English.
Conversely, 'panties' in English are called 'slipje' (diminutive of slip) in Dutch, which in turn is something totally different in English :D
Try buying clothes in the US as a Dutch woman that doesn't know enough English :D

Switch Blayde 🚫

@awnlee jawking

"This is our bikini style panty."

And that is correct to me.

Dicrostonyx 🚫

@DBActive

I find that knowing the etymology often helps in determining correct usage, although, of course, the technically correct usage doesn't always match common or accepted informal use.

The word panties is a diminutive of "pants". The word has been around since at least 1845 and was originally used for male underwear; the modern use of panties as referring specifically to "undergarments for women" is first attested in 1908.

Pants is plural because a "pant" is a tube of cloth. In the middle ages each pant was put on separately and they were tied together and to the belt with leather laces.

Thus a pair of pants is two tube of cloth sewn together into a single garment and over time as that garment becomes the standard the term is shortened: pair of pants > pants > panties.

Since there was never an undergarment consisting of a single side, this is a purely plural word. "Panty" is not a word on its own, although it has become acceptable as an adjective, as in pantyliner (the thing which lines a pair of panties).

Replies:   solreader50
solreader50 🚫

@Dicrostonyx

Can we now have a re-run of this entire conversation as to why people do not put on their trouser.

Alternatively we could go for a dance on the head of a pin.

Replies:   Keet
Keet 🚫

@solreader50

Can we now have a re-run of this entire conversation as to why people do not put on their trouser.

Why wouldn't they?
https://www.thefreedictionary.com/trouser

LupusDei 🚫
Updated:

@DBActive

It's seemingly logically silly to refer to a single little patch of lace as a pair of something, but because of etymology it's plural word in all of the few languages I happen to know. My first suspicion would be, that the author's in question native language may somehow be an exception. Or maybe he's a programmer taking world in without history and labeling it all anew.

We all have your weirdness. I would insist on person pronouns for rivers, cities and some other things, explicitly to make them gendered (both of mentioned are always female, but threes come in both, like linden are girls and oaks are men... an artifact of having a native language where it's impossible to use an adjective without determining object's gender, count, specificity, etc. ETA: panties are female, underpants and, surprisingly or not a bra, are male.)

Replies:   helmut_meukel
helmut_meukel 🚫

@LupusDei

like linden are girls and oaks are men...

In German both are female (die Linde, die Eiche) but maple is male (der Ahorn).
The German word for bra is Büstenhalter (usually shortened to BH) and it's male. Something to enclose and hold up a females tits has to be male! ;-)

Rivers are usually female (die Oder, die Havel, die Elbe, die Weser, die Ems, die Mosel, die Donau, die Isar, die Naab) but there are exceptions (der Rhein, der Main, der Neckar, der Inn).
You got me with cities: It's Berlin, Frankfurt, München, Wien (no article, neither der, die or das). If an adjective is used to describe the city/town it's always a neuter: das schöne Wien (the beautiful Vienna).
With countries it's generally no article but there some exceptions: der Iran, die Mongolei, die Slowakei, die Schweiz, der Oman, die USA, der Sudan, die Niederlande, der Irak, der Libanon, die Türkei.

HM.

awnlee jawking 🚫

@helmut_meukel

In German both are female (die Linde, die Eiche) but maple is male (der Ahorn).

What about dioecious trees, which have separate male and female plants?

We have Holly varieties 'Golden King', which is female, and 'Silver Queen', which is male :-)

AJ

Replies:   LupusDei
LupusDei 🚫
Updated:

@awnlee jawking

Grammatical gender of the word not always aligns with the true gender of the object. There's a masculine word, even several, to say basically "girl" in Latvian. Then, those words have their nuance, and could, and often are gender reversed. I mean, a feminine form of nominally masculine word could be used to say "girl" and that grammar play adds flavor.

However, the gendered forms can not always be reliably constructed, especially for compound names. But, while, for example juniper is nominally male kadiķis I could easily say it feminine kadiķe if inclined to.

It's systematically done to surnames (thus yes, the surnames of married people would rarely match perfectly, because of the gendered forms).

helmut_meukel 🚫

@helmut_meukel

With countries it's generally no article but there some exceptions: der Iran, die Mongolei, die Slowakei, die Schweiz, der Oman, die USA, der Sudan, die Niederlande, der Irak, der Libanon, die Türkei.

Just to add, the article for these countries is either feminine or masculine with one exception: the United Kingdom. In German it's neuter!(das Vereinigte Königreich).

HM.

richardshagrin 🚫

@DBActive

die USA

Sometimes English has different meanings than German. I don't want the USA to "die".

Replies:   awnlee jawking
awnlee jawking 🚫

@richardshagrin

I don't want the USA to "die".

Die is the singular form. You should have written:
I don't want the USA two "dice".

AJ

richardshagrin 🚫

@DBActive

dice

Dictionary
Definitions from Oxford Languages · Learn more
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slice and dice
phrase of slice
divide (something) into smaller parts, especially in order to analyze it more closely or in different ways.
"each network has analysis teams that slice and dice the exit poll information to find a conclusion"

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