There have been a few threads recently on the subject of squicks and kinks, and I don't wish to derail them, so here we go...
This thread is aimed at readers, rather than writers, which is why it's not in the authors forum. This question is as the title. As a reader, will you ignore stories from writers you like with tags you don't? Or will you just give it a go and hope for the best?
Over to you, the readers...
Mostly I'll ignore them. I sometimes contact the author and see what they think but only very rarely have I read the story and enjoyed it, regardless of how much I enjoy the author's other work. Now, this is for things that squick me (BDSM, cheating, slavery), not for things that I'm just not into (M/M, MC, rape). If they fall in the later category I'll give it a try anyway.
Now, this is for things that squick me (BDSM, cheating, slavery), not for things that I'm just not into (M/M, MC, rape). If they fall in the later category I'll give it a try anyway
And this is my challenge. My work has magical slavery, but it is required by the nature of magic and the stories I tell are of those who are charged with making it more humane. Neither masters nor slaves either want or think of what they have as slavery, so the story reads as consensual between highly compatible partners. So, in taking it with "slavery" I'll likely disappoint those looking for the more common form and repel some who would have actually enjoyed the story. I plan to err on the side of protecting squicks, but it is not a clear choice. Maybe the description can put the tag in context.
sla
"A service-level agreement (SLA) is a contract between a service provider and its customers that documents what services the provider will furnish and defines the service standards the provider is obligated to meet."
SLA very an enhanced Service Level Agreement.
As a reader, will you ignore stories from writers you like with tags you don't? Or will you just give it a go and hope for the best?
I will admit that my decision to read or not read a particular story sometimes is made purely on the author - before I even get to topics that I'm not into or I consider a squick.
I'm more open minded than most. I'll read anything that sounds interesting. I don't have anything excluded in my searches.
I've proofread some really sick shit, but when it comes to reading for pleasure, there are certain tags I prefer to avoid.
AJ
I've proofread some really sick shit, but when it comes to reading for pleasure, there are certain tags I prefer to avoid.
I don't like stories with torture and skim those parts, however, I have my hero in my thrillers administer torture and have the bad guys also hurt people to show how bad they are. Now if torture is a major part of the story, I abandon the story. But if torture is necessary to the plot, I'll keep reading.
have the bad guys also hurt people to show how bad they are
In TV dramas and movies, is it accurate for morally dubious protagonists to shoot bad guys with a through-and-through knowing they'd missed all the vital organs so the bad guys should make a full recovery once they'd spilled the beans?
AJ
In TV dramas and movies, is it accurate for morally dubious protagonists to shoot bad guys with a through-and-through knowing they'd missed all the vital organs so the bad guys should make a full recovery once they'd spilled the beans?
Almost no one would be able to shoot that accurately in a life or death situation. Especially if someone is shooting at you.
On top of that, in the real world, deliberately shooting to maim would be worse (legally for the shooter) than shooting to kill in any situation where self defense would be legally justified.
is it accurate for morally dubious protagonists to shoot bad guy
I was talking about torture. In "Dirty Harry," the hero tortures the bad guy to find out where he buried the victim alive. Of course it was thrown out of court, but the hero did it.
I'll read anything that sounds interesting
I'm currently breaking the rule of "Just because you can, doesn't mean that you should", with regards to writing a story involving tentacle sex. I'm not interested in the subject, but I wanted to see if I could...
No, I will read most stories and if the story goes in a direction that I might not like I may abandon reading it. But I would give most stories a try first.
After all, I might change my mind about say bondage or gay sex.
As someone once said. I prefer well-presented stories than condemning them for the subject matter...
I decide on a case-to-case basis, so a definite "it depends".
The same applies in reverse, occasionally I'll look at a story by an author I have negative interest in and take look. Once or twice it was worth it.
An author who I'm familiar with I'll have a read anyway, as it may well be such a tiny part of the overall story as to be almost unnoticeable. Case in point is Lazlo Zalezac's 'John Carter', where it probably amounted to a few paragraphs in a story running to hundreds of pages. On the other hand if an author I've not read puts up a string of gay/MM stories (but not lesbian/FF - I'm a guy, sue me!) then I'm likely to put them into author exclusion.
The reality is that I have more than enough potential reading material in my life that I would rather look at than try something that I'm likely to abandon partway through due to personal dislikes. It wouldn't matter if it was the most well-written work going, if you feel uncomfortable then it might as well be the worst. Unless you're a masochist of course, but that's usually a whole other genre!
The reality is that I have more than enough potential reading material in my life that I would rather look at than try something that I'm likely to abandon partway through due to personal dislikes. It wouldn't matter if it was the most well-written work going, if you feel uncomfortable then it might as well be the worst. Unless you're a masochist of course, but that's usually a whole other genre!
This. One very good author on this site landed in my exclusions bucket because I ran into multiple instances of something that squicks me (D/s) that weren't coded. The author sounded like he only codes for kink, not squick.
The author sounded like he only codes for kink, not squick.
I'm not sure how you can effectively code for squick as a writer, because something is going to offend someone. The only way to be sure, is to code everything in case one of your readers is a snowflake...
I'm not sure how you can effectively code for squick as a writer, because something is going to offend someone. The only way to be sure, is to code everything in case one of your readers is a snowflake...
You can just try to do your best.
I remember seeing a list of what they called Hot Codes years ago, maybe on ASSM?, and the suggestion that you always code for those as they were hot button topics for a fair portion of the readership. I don't remember the whole list but I'm pretty sure it had incest, pedophilia, all of the BDSM codes and MM at the minimum.
Since I want my readers to be happy reading my stories coding for things that might turn them off seems like a good thing to do. Of course if an authors goal is to just tell their story and to hell with the reader then who cares about codes.
I don't remember the whole list but I'm pretty sure it had incest, pedophilia, all of the BDSM codes and MM at the minimum.
I believe on SOL, cheating is a huge squick. I guess a lot of readers had been cheated on and it's painful.
In my WIP, there's a relationship that sours and the wife cheats before getting a divorce. But I won't include the "cheating" tag. It's not a story about cheating. The cheating is about relationships. If someone reads that tiny scene (with a big impact) and is squicked by the cheating, I guess they'll 1-bomb me because I didn't include the code. Oh well. Hope that makes them feel better.
Choosing story codes is not a science. It's not black and white. If someone wants black and white, they should read a Math book, not fiction.
I'm not sure how you can effectively code for squick as a writer, because something is going to offend someone. The only way to be sure, is to code everything in case one of your readers is a snowflake...
That is certainly one approach, but if a book was coded that way and included tags for say murder, genocide, incest, homosexuality, slavery etc. Would that mean that no snowflakes would read the bible?
Personally I think a lot of the coding issues would be solved if authors and readers stopped interpreting the code descriptions provided by Lazeez and simply followed them.
Obviously the code descriptions could do with a overhaul to correct or better define certain codes, but since far too many people ignore the code descriptions in favour of their own version, it is understandable that Lazeez hasn't spent valuable time doing so.
I've always found having 'codes' a little weird. Yes, it's handy for some quick porn to get the blood flowing in order to surmount deficiencies in the other half, but that's only required for short stories where base titillation is the only goal and plot and character development are really not needed.
I suppose, now that I think about it, it's the literary equivalent of a 'fluffer'. I'm talking about 30KB stories and under. Anything over that and I'm after a story to read and the sex is not important, and will most likely be skipped, so (for me) story codes are superfluous.
When I walk into a bookshop, I don't bemoan the lack of story codes on the covers, I just check to see if it's in the genre I fancy at the time, and if the synopsis is intriguing, in the basket it goes.
I've always found having 'codes' a little weird. Yes, it's handy, but that's only required for short stories where plot and character development are really not needed.
I suppose (for me) story codes are superfluous.
When I walk into a bookshop, I don't bemoan the lack of story codes on the covers, I just check to see if it's in the genre I fancy at the time, and if the synopsis is intriguing
(I edited the above quote)
Story Codes or Tags are used for more than just sexual content and fetishes. Violence, War, Military, Politics, Slow, Tear Jerker, etc.
For example, a story similar to the movie 8mm should have the Tags: Mystery, Violence, Snuff, Tear Jerker, and probably several others. Sex is part of the plot, but not titillating.
Police stories, all with a serious plot, say a Murderer has escaped from the state penitentiary, and is suspected to be in the jurisdiction of...
Andy Griffith Show: Humor, Crime or Mystery
Barney Miller: Workplace, Humor, Crime
Hill Street Blues: Crime, Workplace, Violence, perhaps some nudity or sex, likely Humor.
Justified: Violence, Crime, Humor, possibly nudity or sex.
Star Cops: SciFi, Crime, etc.
Babylon 5: SciFi, Workplace, Crime, Mystery, Aliens, Politics, etc.
Other versions might be NYPD Blue, Hawaii 5-0, The Wire, Bluebloods.
Without adding aspects that were not in the original show (or books) it is possible to have a variety of Tags that might appeal to some readers and not others.
All of the shows I mentioned above had at least one episode with an escaped felon being caught. But the plots were often quite different.
Tags provide some indications of the focus of the story, along with the blurb or description.
(I edited the above quote)
If you edit it, it is NOT a quote.
We are discussing codes/tags used on SoL. They may or may not be used elsewhere, however the meaning of each is specific to SoL and is ONLY as set out here.
Using examples of TV shows is irrelevant. Suggesting examples of unwritten stories not even posted on SoL is spectacularly irrelevant, not to mention the illegality of copyright theft.
The fact is that printed books do not have codes/tags and are only defined by genre. Attempting to compare the two is utterly pointless.
If you edit it, it is NOT a quote.
Quotes are often edited. I removed the middle of what a person posted so that the matter that I was commenting upon remained. Since I did cut out part of what they typed, I was clear that I removed elements without changing context.
I am old enough to have used the Dewey Decimal System to look up books for papers I wrote in school k-12. Even at the university not everything was in the computer systems, so, file cards of the DDS were in their traditional drawers, in particular in the History, Military, and Law libraries.
Very similar to using Tags to look up stories on SOL. If you are searching for stories, online or "dead tree" you may use Key Words, often identical to the Tags on SOL.
Because it seems more people are familiar with popular TV shows than many books, I gave examples of If a person were to write a Story based upon those TV shows, and remained consistent to the source material, some Tags they would likely use.
So, for print books:
Henry V: Royalty, Politics, War, Violence, Poetry, Historical, probably some others.
The Lord of the Rings; Return of the King: Fantasy, War, Violence, Magic, Tear Jerker, Romance, Ghosts, Pirates, Farming, etc
Perhaps it more common browsing books online. However in the bookstore the SciFi section has subsections such as Military SciFi, or Post Apocalypse. Romance has Urban Fantasy, Explicit, Young Adult, Western, etc.
Romance seems to be the biggest section in most bookstores. There are Tags on the shelves to help people find the variety of Romance novel they are looking for.
A tangent: some of the best writing about veterans, disabilities, physical, mental, and emotional, adapting to prosthetics, coping with PTS/PTSD, service dogs, and equine therapy, are in Romance novels! Several young lady friends have suggested books to me, or given me some to read. Better than American Sniper, one of the few books about warfare in 21st century that actually addresses PTS and other wounds and disabilities.
However in the bookstore the SciFi section has subsections such as Military SciFi, or Post Apocalypse. Romance has Urban Fantasy, Explicit, Young Adult, Western, etc.
That is some book-store. All the ones that I have graced with my presence in the UK and Europe, have ranged from just having the store divided into either Adult/Children's sections (it's up to you to go looking) to Western/Romance/Crime/(Scifi and fantasy have always been intermingled on the same shelves)/ Maps etc, etc. I have never seen the sections split or labelled into subsections.
Alas, book-stores seem to be declining in both numbers and books. A lot of them are removing shelves (and therefore books) to make way for 'coffee areas' or are now stocking puzzles/boardgames and all sorts of weird non book related stuff.
Is this just the one shop that sub labels genres or is this standard for your area/country?
Despite my numerous, and serious, complaints about the Seattle (and Portland, OR) area(s); one reason I remain is the tremendous numbers of Readers, Writers, and Bookstores!
Two chains in particular use the tagging of sections I mentioned. Barnes & Nobes, and Half Price Books. Half Price Books offers new books, mostly acquired at discount, and used books (nearly all in like new condition, or nearly so).
Used book stores (that often offer some new books too) are prolific, and tend to have shelves dedicated to, and labeled, for sub genres.
Being Seattle, a coffee kiosk or small cafeteria is common. Most of those that have them here, they are additional space, added in the 1990's. While Amazon and such has caused some book stores to go out of business. I believe we have 2 "new" Bookstores for every 3 that have closed since 2003.
I recently went to a sale at a bookstore "closing" in downtown Bellevue. I remember when it opened in the 1980's. It is/was converted to a bowling alley. They will be building a skyscraper in the location. However, they are relocating to a shopping district several miles away in the suburbs. The new location is significantly larger than their old location.
Games, either family, or "for smart people" (such as Trivial Pursuit), or D&D, have been sold in many bookstores here since the 1960's. I first bought D&D books c.1979 in a local bookstore.
Since I was a teen, I have had a membership card in a couple of stores in the "Japan Town" district where I could purchase (or back in the day rent) Manga and Anime. Now, many bookstores offer Manga, or the Korean variant, some also offer animal.
In the last decade there are fewer books for sale in grocery stores or department stores. (Nowadays grocery stores and department stores both offer near identical mixes of groceries and sundries.)
Until a year or two ago I would spend $50 to $100 dollars a month on books each month, picked up while grocery shopping (and sundries).
"Tags" became more common as bookstores had fewer employees, and higher turnover. Also, it seems some customers want to focus on "the current trend" and not browse and perhaps find something they didn't know they were looking for! Some of my favorite books (often "research materials") I found while looking for something else. I have learned if I don't get it now, I may never find it again.
Perhaps it more common browsing books online. However in the bookstore the SciFi section has subsections such as Military SciFi, or Post Apocalypse. Romance has Urban Fantasy, Explicit, Young Adult, Western, etc.
So now you are comparing SoL story tags to those placed on the shelves of a bookstore, NOT tags printed IN the books themselves.
For that to be a true comparison every book posted on SoL should be assigned tags by Lazeez, no story would contain any tags at all. Readers would be guided by which directory the story is in.
I don't see that as a popular change from the current system. But obviously you do.
So now you are comparing SoL story tags to those placed on the shelves of a bookstore, NOT tags printed IN the books themselves.
Publishers, even more than writers, are concerned that using such "tags" may discourage potential customers.
As I mentioned in another comment, the use of "Tags" on shelves seems to be much more common as bookstores have Fewer employees, and greater turnover of employees. Making it easier for casual shoppers to find the "current trends" or the most popular (thus best selling) categories.
Librarians have used "Tags" for more than a century, but authors not as much. I refer to the Dewey Decimal System (and have in other posts).
I refer to the Dewey Decimal System (and have in other posts).
In a discussion about colour saturation on Digital HD flat screen televisions, you could repeatedly refer to the test card display on a black and white cathode ray tube TV. You could refer repeatedly, doing so would not make the comparison relevant however.
It doesn't matter if the author is a favorite or otherwise. If they want me to read it, just nudge my insatiable curiosity button. Do not, however, under any circumstances use the 'True' tag. It destroys my ability to suspend disbelief.
Edit to explain why.
As a reader... It depends. As others have said, if the author puts out what I feel is good material otherwise, I'll give it a go. Or if there's a lot of good buzz about a story, or good reviews that maybe partially explain the situation or coding a bit.
Coding for a story can be a bit misleading since they try to address kinks/squicks. Take Don Lockwood's Dance of a Lifetime. It's coded M/M and Rape. The rape itself is very brief, not sexualized (it's an attack), and isn't described in details other than later in medical terms. I think the M/M aspect either comes in there, since it was a rape of the male protagonist, or in conversations dealing with gay figure skaters. Sophie also talks about non-consensual sex that was in her past, and some of the girls that she counsels talk about some issues that occur off screen. If you go strictly off coding, you'll miss one hell of a great story (in my opinion).
I think that's a completely different beast than a story where the rape is the major event and is sexualized. One, I'll read with no issues. The other, pass.
As a reader, will you ignore stories from writers you like with tags you don't? Or will you just give it a go and hope for the best?
If I am familiar with the author, in deciding to read it is primarily based on the summary.
If it is an author that I am not familiar with and I get past the summary, I will skim through the tags. Then it is a combination of the tags and summary as to whether I will read it.
The reader always has the option of dumping a story before finishing it. I have done that but the usually it is due to the plot progression, lack thereof, or poor writing skills.
Cheers,
If I am familiar with the author, in deciding to read it is primarily based on the summary.
And that, for me, is where most new stories can stand or fall as regards reading it - the summary/story desription. A badly written one with spelling/grammar mistakes immediately points up that what follows may be an exercise in frustration in reading, never mind the squicks that may (or may not) be mentioned in the codes. Mind you, if I then see it getting good scores and continuing to post then I may have a look, on the basis that if others are high scoring it then it may just be that the author has a problem with writing descriptions. I've seen that a few times too; excellent story but poor description.
And that, for me, is where most new stories can stand or fall as regards reading it - the summary/story desription. A badly written one with spelling/grammar mistakes immediately points up that what follows may be an exercise in frustration in reading, never mind the squicks that may (or may not) be mentioned in the codes.
Case in point from today's Updates:
"When your a young genus..."
and I don't think a "pyretic victory" was exactly what the author had in mind.
Will I read it? Possibly if I have nothing else to do. But the failure to even proof read the sales pitch doesn't give much hope that the rest of the story is better.
But the failure to even proof read
You can proofread forever, but if you don't know the correct spelling of a word and a spellchecker doesn't flag it because it's a real word, you'll never see it.
It happened to me.
You can proofread forever, but if you don't know the correct spelling of a word and a spellchecker doesn't flag it because it's a real word, you'll never see it.
Correct.
I think that's why they used to have these things called "schools"...
You can proofread forever, but if you don't know the correct spelling of a word and a spellchecker doesn't flag it because it's a real word, you'll never see it.
'genus' and 'pyretic' are both valid words, although it's obvious they're not the ones the author intended.
AJ
'genus' and 'pyretic' are both valid words, although it's obvious they're not the ones the author intended.
That was my point.
It may have been you who pointed out that in one of my novels, I had "Forward" when it should have been "Foreword." No matter how many times I read a novel with a Foreword, I never actually looked closely at the spelling. I just read "Forward." So no matter how many times I edited my novel, I never saw the error. I would now because I'm aware of it.
Oh, man! I saw this and thought of the story I'm currently posting. Did I screw that up? It would be so easy to get it wrong. (No, I didn't, but I can't say it was a conscious decision to get it right.). Thanks for pointing it out as I'll probably actually think about it in the future.
I proofread/correct/suggest to a few authors here. Even the best authors make mistakes, and it is hard to read a story from a proofreading point of view. That is why I make at least two passes through every story I work on, and if I find a lot of things I missed on the first pass, I will make a third as well. I am constantly surprised at the things that slip past me the first time through. Not many, but the fact that they are still there at all.
I remember seeing that and thinking that, not only doesn't the author know how to spell 'pyrrhic', he doesn't know what it means. What he describes, at least, is an empty victory, but it doesn't seem that anything is lost so the victory didn't come at too great a cost.
If I knew the author and their style, it likely would not bother me. Because in those cases I would know how they write, and seeing something that would normally turn me off would not affect me as if it was an author I did not know.
Some of the things I avoid are rape, or any form of abuse. But if I knew that writing about such as a kink was not their style, I would not put it off seeing such as I would know that was likely something done for the plot, and not a major aspect of the story.
Some of the things I avoid are rape, or any form of abuse. But if I knew that writing about such as a kink was not their style, I would not put it off seeing
A lot of people exclude tags that are squicks to them. They would never get the opportunity to judge whether or not to read it. They won't see the story.
A lot of people exclude tags that are squicks to them. They would never get the opportunity to judge whether or not to read it. They won't see the story.
And for that, I will often then look at the writing history of the author.
For example, if 2/3 of their stories involve say rape and the descriptions make it is obviously a story about rape, I really need to look no farther.
I exclude nothing in my searches, but do look at story descriptions and tags.
In general, one of my largest "squicks" are what I call the "kitchen sink stories". And we have all seen them, a 30k story that has 30+ tags in the description.
I exclude nothing in my searches, but do look at story descriptions and tags.
Me too. I was referring to people who have tags in their exclusion list. They would never see a story with one of those tags so they lose the opportunity to decide if they want to read it. For them, the story doesn't exist.
This is what made me end up taking a read even though it had some tags I don't care. I was glad I did.
"WARNING: This starts in a dark place but don't be put off by the tags, they don't tell the story. Take a chance, you won't regret it!"
There are authors that I have come to love their stories, and I would read regardless of the codes. But for most others, I would just skip.
The only stories I avoid are the stories with authors obsessed with scat and spanking, as they almost universally are terrible. And these authors usually only write stories with their weird fetishes in them, so its unlikely for me to find a normal story from that author.
Picking an author is way more important than skimming tags. Most of the stories on this site are borderline unreadable to completely unreadable for me, because the writing is frankly fucking terrible. Once I find a good author who knows how to build story structure, knows how to write dialogue, knows how present and past tense works, then I'll read pretty much whatever they put out. These are sadly few and far between.
My guess is the better the author the less it matters to most people. muyoso is right. A consistently good author is the best indicator of a good story.
What is squick can be subtle too. Sure "Cheating" is a flag for some but "BTB" brings some back and "RAAC" brings a different crowd.
Once is different than alot. I can just skip it once.
Does it happen "off screen"? Some people flag for even "off screen" stuff and that is fine but to me that is like skipping it but built in.
If you have a plot does it make sense what the squick is doing in the story? The bolt on scene is more likely to bug me than anything else.
Do you explain in your story blurb? This is the most important. I have seen authors say "blah" is off screen for example. That is super helpful.
For me, a lot depends on both the specific tag and the author, and what I've read of theirs in the past.
Some tags are black & white. If a story includes "scat" I'm not even going to look at it. Most tags have wiggle room, though. People draw lines in different places. Moreover, despite the large number of tags on SOL, there's no consistent way to tell if content is part of the story or background, if it is written sexually or not, and so on.
For example, if I know that a story includes sexual torture I won't look at it, no matter who the author is, but just because a story is tagged as including both sex and torture does not mean that they are necessarily linked or explicit.
As for it depending on the author, a good example is Thinking Horndog. Some of their stories include squicks of mine, like sexual slavery, sexual violence and torture, and extreme DomSub relationships. On the other hand, I read The Heat Wave years ago without knowing the content, and while it does have some scenes I dislike, the story doesn't quite go too far for me, although it is very close to the line in some places. As a result, I'm willing to approach newer TH stories cautiously.
OTOH, if an author like Lubrican had a story with a rape tag I'd have no issues trying it because I know from previous stories that their writing style is unlikely to go into great detail on the violence.
For example, if I know that a story includes sexual torture I won't look at it, no matter who the author is, but just because a story is tagged as including both sex and torture does not mean that they are necessarily linked or explicit.
That is the reason why several of my stories have a rape (or attempted rape) in it, but I never include the "rape" tag. Also, I absolutely refuse to ever describe such an act in detail, nor to portray it as anything other than a horrible act.
I have absolutely no interest in feeding people attracted to something like that, and see nothing wrong in doing so because in no way is the assault depicted in a "sexy" manner at all, but as a gross violation.
Sure, but the flip-side is that if rape or recovery is a major theme of the story then it could be triggering or otherwise uncomfortable to some readers and should be tagged, whether it's an on-page sexual event or not.
One of G Younger's Stupid Boy books has a plotline in which the protagonist has been falsely accused of rape. Although other things happen, there are several chapters in which that situation is the major story element and frankly it got really oppressive.
Now, that may have been the point: getting the reader to feel just as stressed as the protagonist was, but that doesn't make it a fun read. Moreover, nowhere in any of the books is rape a tag, but this isn't the only storyline involving it. There are a couple of Stupid Boy books in which off-page rapes are both major themes and drivers of plot.
If it's an author I like, will most definately give it a go. There's no greater purpose in literature than to get a person thinking about something they might have a 'squick' towards (prejudice is perhaps a better word). Also, there is nothing more rewarding than to read something you thought might have been unappealing or even gross, only to find it is actually rather interesting, and maybe even changes your outlook. However, it takes a good writer to do this to you. Good writing trumps 'topic' all the time. Conversely, I'm completely turned off if a favourite topic of mine is written badly. I all the more want it to be written well if it's 'my thing'.
It depends. There are varying degrees of 'squick.' If the description includes any of the more serious squicks then yes I will avoid it. If it contains codes that I find distasteful, but I trust the author I might give it a try, but may quit at any time if it takes me too far out of my comfort zone. As an example, the bondage scenes in 'Mat's Crazy Corner of the World' by Fantasylover were just descriptive enough to give the reader the idea of what was going on without being too descriptive. On the other hand, things like ma/ma and the more extreme versions of S&M I will avoid regardless.
