Forum: Author Hangout

Nope. It is still in progress, so not complete.

But not incomplete. It will be completed in a reasonable time. That's the rules.

You can say the same about the first posts of my stories, as what's publicly visible is not the same as what is on SoL.

What you really mean is: What is currently publicly visible.

The anti-teaser has always been to stop people posting an incomplete story on SoL that doesn't reach a suitable end. Where as what this author does is post a story on SoL that is complete, but you can also buy another version which has all of that and some extra material, much like a director's cut version as against the basic release version. In each case the story is a complete story in itself, but one has additional material the loss of which does not take away from the story, but enhances when it's there.

He is not saying, "Go here to see the rest of the story," the way Winston used to, but he is saying, "Go here for the cut scenes version." So there story is complete.

the loss of which does not take away from the story, but enhances when it's there.

I'd like to see you argue that point of view with Spock ;-)

AJ

I'd like to see you argue that point of view with Spock ;-)

Tell him to log in and I will.

but enhances when it's there

Not always. Like with the director's cut. There was a reason the editor removed the extra scenes and hopefully made it stronger. They even give an Oscar to the best editor.

When I first wrote "The Preacher's Wife" so many people asked for more that I actually wrote 5 more chapters (something I don't usually do and this may be the reason). Some even provided scenarios for the MC.

When I revised it to post on SOL, I deleted those 5 extra chapters. They added nothing to the story. They were just sex and made the plot weaker. So the version of the story on SOL ends where it originally ended and is better for it.

There was a reason the editor removed the extra scenes and hopefully made it stronger.

True, for some, but many cuts are due to reduce the total film length time of play, and often the cuts are to fit the editor's personal prejudices. There are many films which had the story line destroyed by the editors cutting critical plot scenes because they didn't like something in the scene.

During the night, now 9 a.m. here, I thought about this and realised a variation on this situation which I had done. When I first wrote the Clan Amir Series it was in 7 books which were published in Ireland. The series has a mix of novels, novellas, and short stories in for 45 stories in total. When I first posted the stories on SoL I had to meet restrictions on how much of each book I could post on SoL, thus while what I posted were readable as complete stories they were not the full book and there were gaps between the stories. Eventually the deal with the Irish publisher expired and then all of the stories were posted on SoL and eventually accumulated to be the 7 books on SoL as well.

Does that mean when I first posted them on SoL the partial books were a teaser? They weren't as what was posted made a complete story of it's own and you did not have to go elsewhere to reach the end of the story posted, although the other material enhanced the overall story arc.

The same is true to what is happening with the story in question. Like the other two stories in this series the story on SoL reads like a complete story, while the purchased version has extra material in it that enhances the story, and the same will be true of this story.

The author is just giving the reader a little more for a price.

Which is exactly what rule six exists to prevent.

No. Rule 6 is about getting a reader interested and then saying, "Oh, sorry, but if you want to read the rest you have to buy it."

So if the author simply points out that to read the extra eight chapters you have to buy it is ok then?

I believe that is correct.

I guess marketing is okay, but dishonorable marketing is not.

The way rule six is written teasers are absolutely prohibited. It defines a teaser as any parts that require or entice readers to read preceding or following parts on other sites.

It seems to me if all the substantial elements of the plot are included in SOL version and the ebook; then its not a "teaser" by Lazeez's standards.

Adding additional content to various printings of a book is not uncommon.

Back to movie comparisons. The theatrical release of Blade Runner included narration, and some other changes. The plot didn't change, however, fan (Fanatic) speculation of what occurs After the movie ends continues to this day. Still, BOTH are the Full story.

If I am to publish as an ebook or print version of my story Aztlan Portal, I would have an editor. There would be substantial changes, mostly trimming down, from the serial version I am putting up on SOL. I might have to rearrange some chapters, and perhaps add some material to replace the greater amount I would cut.

Depending upon readers input, I might, or might not, put up on SOL the "abridged" version. If I did, I would want to leave up the original version, and make clear the the new version matches the ebook.

Do you actually believe that a competent author would add eight chapters to the Bookapy/Amazon version of the SoL story, none of which contain anything substantial?

It's possible to have two versions of a story that make a complete story, but one has more content in it than the other. The author under discussion has two other stories in the same series where the stories on SoL are complete and full stories, while the purchased epubs include more material which enhances the story and makes it better. However, the SoL versions do NOT suffer for not having the extra material.

Take my latest story 'Space Born - A New Realm' - it would still be a complete story if I had left out everything related to the fight at General Port or the fight with the Hellenic Hegemony. So it is possible to have a good story that is short some material.

Heck, the story that started this thread is the only 'on-going' story I've been following for many years, and I'm currently reading the epub version I bought. If the author had not mentioned the extra chapters I wouldn't have recognised there were difference in what I've already read. Even knowing where they've been added, I can see the story is good without them, but better with them as each one is like extra-time at the end of the fourth quarter of a goodgame.

the bookapy version has EXTRA scenes - is that so hard for you to understand? It's not like the story ends in the middle of the fight, the second version just has a few extra fights, is all.

There appears to be an inconsistency in the site rules.

If the story were serialised to a 'buy me a coffee' site, because the SOL version is only allowed to be a small number of chapters behind, the fact that several of those chapters were never intended to appear on SOL surely means an inevitable violation.

So whether a violation has taken place appears to depend on where the author has published the premium content.

AJ

The older story – in my EPUB version – is 164 KB, the newer novel as Baen EPUB is 349 KB.

The epub of that I bought in march 2021 is 286.1 kb - it has 2 stories in about Stephanie. I suspect the original was only the first story. Does your older copy include the story of Stephanie becoming a Junior Ranger after the fight where she and her treecat get hurt?

the fact that several of those chapters were never intended to appear on SOL surely means an inevitable violation.

No.

It just means there are two versions of the story. But both are complete stories so there's no violation. That's not a teaser. A teaser is, "If you want to read the end of the story, sorry but you have to pay for it."

(Teasers are any story parts that require or entice readers to read preceding or following parts on other sites or purchase those parts or sending money for further postings.)

I believe you're taking the words "teaser" and "entice" literarily rather than what their intent is in the rule.

Every book blurb (description on SOL or movie trailer for a movie) is a teaser to entice you to buy the book. A blog where the author states, "If you liked my first book you're going to love my second book which is available on Bookapy" is a teaser to entice the reader to buy the second book. Even the free stories on SOL can be viewed as a teaser for the Premier only stories — to read those stories you have to buy a membership.

I believe the intent of Rule 6 is to not allow an author to make the reader buy parts of the story to make it complete. Don't leave the reader hanging, feeling cheated.

If the story that's free on SOL is complete, but the one for pay is different, that's not what Rule 6 is trying to prevent.

What if an author posted a story on SOL with a ton of grammar errors and typos and then he paid a professional editor to fix it up. But he laid out the money for the professional editor that he needs to recoup so he publishes the better version on Bookapy and in a blog informs the readers. Or informs them in an author note at the end of the free one. That's not a violation of Rule 6. Your argument is that the reader is cheated because he has to buy the better version. But they're the same story except he has to put up with the typos and grammar errors in the free one.

Finally. We agree.

Sorry, but we don't agree.

I don't know what story you're talking about and haven't read the blog. But if the story is complete on SOL, it's complete. If there's another version on Bookapy that has more chapters, that's a different version of the story.

The reader got to read a completed story on SOL. If the different version had never been put on Bookapy, we wouldn't be having this discussion. But even though there's a different version on Bookapy, the reader wasn't left hanging with an incomplete story and forced to pay to read the completed one. I believe that's the intent of Rule 6.

That explains a lot.

Okay, I found the blog and story. It isn't what I thought it was. I thought there was a completed story on SOL and the author decided to embellish it by providing more content and selling the enhanced version on Bookapy.

I still don't think it's a teaser because I'm assuming the author will post the remaining chapters on SOL to complete the story. If he doesn't, Lazeez will do it for him. That's what authors agree to. Oddly, the only completed version Lazeez has is the one on Bookapy which is different. But I'm assuming the author isn't doing anything nefariously and will finish the story on SOL so that's a non-issue.

As to teasers in general, the right kind is good for Lazeez. Sales on Bookapy is good for Lazeez. That's where he makes money. The only time it's not good for Lazeez is if the author does something nefariously that pisses off the reader because he felt cheated, taken advantage of. That's what Rule 6 is for.

But here I am again speaking for others. I'm just giving my opinion.

That's not my reading. My understanding is that eg the Chapter 7 on SOL corresponds to the Chapter 8 on Bookapy, and that Bookapy's Chapter 7 is not intended for publication on SOL.

ETA A reader who has purchased the book has mentioned extra expository chapters in the comments.

AJ

he was posting as he wrote it. Thus I think he made the epub available as soon as he finished the story, but in doing the final edit he had included extra material and couldn't be bothered to go to the trouble of reposting everything on SoL with the new material.

That explains a lot.

Which is also the reason I don't post anything until the story is completely written. The story takes me places that make me change/add stuff earlier.

I see the situation as if someone was writing a story about hitch-hiking from New York to Los Angeles and each chapter was about each day's travel, and at the end of each day they went to sleep and the next chapter opened with them waking up. Then in a revision they include some extra material with chapters about events happening during the night at some locations.

That sounds more than expository to me.

AJ

except that is NOT what rule 6 says.

I guess we can go back and forth forever. My opinion is that it comes down to intent.

I believe what Ernest is saying is the intent of Rule 6.

Regardless of what the rules currently say, I think there's a substantial difference in intent between supplying more descriptive content (eg maps, floor plans, likenesses of the main characters) and extra story content in which the main characters take part in significant events. I'd rate extra expository content (for example the Prologue of the story in question, which is currently free to read via Bookapy's 'look inside) as somewhere in between.

AJ

there's a substantial difference in intent between supplying more descriptive content (eg maps, floor plans, likenesses of the main characters) and extra story content in which the main characters take part in significant events.

If the reader reads the story on SOL (once it's completed) and doesn't know about the version on Bookapy, he wouldn't feel cheated, coerced. He'd be a happy camper.

As to the author, from what I can conclude is that he isn't being nefarious, forcing the reader into buying the Bookapy version. He was notifying the reader that there's a version with some extra stuff. There's no intent to force the reader to buy the Bookapy version.

Someone once said on this forum that my short story "Last Kiss" is a teaser in violation of Rule 6 because at the end of the story there's a link to the novel on Bookapy with the same name. The novel was inspired by the short story and has some similarities, but it's quite different. Both have some of the same characters and aspects of bullying and Romeo and Juliet, but the novel is a murder mystery which the short story isn't. It was decided that referencing the novel at the end of the short story is not in violation of Rule 6. It's marketing, not what Rule 6 is all about.

I believe this author is innocent. The reader doesn't have to buy the Bookapy version to enjoy the story on SOL (assuming it gets finished on SOL). The author didn't do anything wrong.

Now if the additional chapters on the Bookapy version make the new chapters to be added to the SOL version confusing, that's different. Like if a reader sends the author feedback saying he doesn't understand it and the author responds with, "Oh, that's because that information is in the Bookapy version," that's in violation of Rule 6.

Now if the additional chapters on the Bookapy version make the new chapters to be added to the SOL version confusing, that's different.

Having read both I can say they do not make it confusing, they just include additional scenes.

Having read both

You haven't read the SOL chapters that haven't been posted yet. But that was hypothetical. I don't expect the author to do that.

The last of the additional chapters is chapter 56 of the epub. At the time of the blog entry the story on sol was posted up to sol chapter 49 which equates to epub chapter 57, thus all of the new work is prior to where the sol story was up to at the time of the blog. Therefore, yes I did read all of both stories as far as the sections with the extra material is concerned.

posting chapters 1-20 and 41-60 on SoL then posting chapters 21-40 on a pay site (like Bookapy) isn't allowed either.

If the story on SOL (chapters 1-20 and 41-60) is a complete story, then it's not in violation.

That clarification makes things perfectly clear.

I thought that's what I said. LOL

I thought that's what I said. LOL

Nope. Because as Lazeez made clear, by entice he actually means compel.

I said: "No. Rule 6 is about getting a reader interested and then saying, 'Oh, sorry, but if you want to read the rest you have to buy it.'"

and

"A teaser is, 'If you want to read the end of the story, sorry but you have to pay for it.'" (which you responded with "WRONG") but "Have to pay for it" = compelled

and

"I believe you're taking the words 'teaser' and "entice" literarily rather than what their intent is in the rule." … "I believe the intent of Rule 6 is to not allow an author to make the reader buy parts of the story to make it complete. Don't leave the reader hanging, feeling cheated."

Anyway, glad the wording has been changed.

"I believe the intent of Rule 6 is to not allow an author to make the reader buy parts of the story to make it complete. Don't leave the reader hanging, feeling cheated."

Doesn't the very act of announcing that there's extra content which readers have to pay to read leave the readers hanging, feeling cheated?

I recall another author publishing a 'complete' story on SOL during which the protagonists got married. The author announced that the events of the wedding were in the monetised version of the story which readers would have to pay to read.

The commonality is the author's announcement inciting FOMO.

AJ

no more than a condensed version, or a cliff's notes, or an abridged version does.

Doesn't the very act of announcing that there's extra content which readers have to pay to read leave the readers hanging, feeling cheated?

No, because that's extra content. They won't be left hanging, like if the story isn't finished.

There is a pretty good story, that I think is still on SOL. Book One is complete. If a person wants to read the other "Books" in the series, they must buy them.

I don't feel cheated. The first book showcased the author's talent and established some interesting characters and situations. I have some desire to (perhaps eventually) read the other books.

Instead I spent money to buy a Premium Membership to SOL/Fine Stories/Sci-Fi Stories. I qualify for a "free" premium membership thanks to Readers who keep reading what I post. I pay for a Premium Membership so that there will be a place for amateurs to Post their Stories, and a place for people to Read them!

I do wonder why in a forum named 'Author Hangout' on a story site so few are concerned with correct word choice, clarity, words and their meaning but instead much prefer to 'interpret' or argue over intent.

Because they've been too heavily tainted with how the politicians and media no longer regard words having strict meanings. Just look at the words that have been seriously morphed over the last few decades, especially the last few years, for political reasons.

Gay meant happy, but not now.

Decimate meant kill one tenth of the people, but not now.

Literally meant exactly as stated, but not now.

and that's before we get onto such topics as propaganda and fake media.

JoyR I think I understand your passion on this matter.

However, I believe that Lazeez allows some "grey areas" or laxness on His interpretations of the rules. As I understand, Laz will contact a writer if their content seems to be in violation. Allowing the writer to explain and/or modify what was posted. Laz also seems to allow a person to post chapters a bit slower than "required" if that is consistent with how they typically update a story with new chapters. Or explain a situation why they are delayed.

That is good for both readers and writers. If content is removed it is readers who are most harmed. Writers benefit from more people seeing their work, even if some content is for free. At writers conferences and Sci-Fi Conventions I am usually given one or more books. eBooks are sometimes made freely available too. Usually to "entice" readers to buy more content from that writer.

"I've gotten my new writing in for the week! What I should be doing is more proofreading and self-editing..." :-P

70+ posts and every post still pretty much on topic. Is this a record?

I count only 10 different contributors.

I feel the discussion would have been healthier if more SOL readers had contributed.

AJ

I'm not sure how this misses the point, honestly.

An author wrote a story.

At some point, they decided to offer additional chapters, but only via Bookapy.

That might, or might not, violate teaser rules.

What part of the parallel to 'The Stand' doesn't fit? An author wrote a story, then decided to add additional material and published it. Is it the same 'story' or a different 'story'? That determines whether it violates the rules (taken literally).

The second part of my comment, about sequels, clearly goes somewhat beyond your point. My reason for mentioning it is that the prohibition about 'teasers' is fairly arbitrary, since an author can side-step it by simply splitting a 'story' into two 'stories' on whatever boundary they wish.

P.S. I should also note that you just encouraged additional contributions.