I really enjoy most DoOver stories.
In recent years, I've begun asking people I know whether they would be willing, "knowing what you to now," to return to age 13 and live your teen years over again.
I must have asked that question of more than a hundred people. So far, not a single one would do that willingly.The reaction of most is that the teen years was the worst time of their lives and nothing could convince them to willingly go through that again.
Didn't they realize their knowledge would/could make it a different experience? I would do it and a lot of things would be the same but other things would be very much different.
I would do it and a lot of things would be the same but other things would be very much different.
Yep me too except a lot of things would different and a few things the same :)
In recent years, I've begun asking people I know whether they would be willing, "knowing what you to now," to return to age 13 and live your teen years over again.
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The reaction of most is that the teen years was the worst time of their lives and nothing could convince them to willingly go through that again.
You may be asking the question the wrong way, such that they're interpreting it in a different way than what you mean.
Try asking them, 'if you could retain the knowledge you have now, would you return to age 13 and live your teen years again, knowing you can change decisions you made the first time around because of your future knowledge.'
The way you're phrasing it makes it sound like they'd just have to live the teen years again just like they were the first time around.
I've begun asking people I know whether they would be willing, "knowing what you to now," to return to age 13 and live your teen years over again.
My answer would be no. Such a desire would be selfish to the extreme.
I'm a firm believer in the butterfly effect. Even just a passing encounter can change other lives. There is no way to assure, much less know the importance of a chance encounter.
Example:The guy you delayed for one second after bumping into him at a coffee shop, lives because that delay prevented him from being hit by a bus, five minutes later.
I don't know which way I would answer. However, the butterfly effect wouldn't be relevant to my decision.
While I'm also a believer in the butterfly effect, I believe that one cannot know which butterflies are the important ones. I'm also pretty sure that we are not currently living in 'the best of all possible worlds.'
Put those two together, and there's no reason to believe that my first life was charmed and all my interactions went the way they 'should' in that best of all possible universes. It's just as likely that I would undo a poor random interaction as create a poor random interaction. However, my non-random interactions are (I believe) likely to be statistically better than my former non-random interactions, because overall I'm likely to have better judgment.
I disagree that it would be selfish in the extreme. That depends on what does with their do-over. I'm aware of a lot of things that I don't like that happened between when I was thirteen and today. Some of those things are ones that I might be able to adjust. Yes, that's absolutely setting forth to 'change history', but since I reject the idea that we're in the best of all possible worlds, a change might be for that future.
The road to hell might well be paved with good intentions, but that doesn't mean that good intentions are selfish.
However, it's still a tough decision. I have a number of people in the here and now who are important to me. Any decision to embark on a do-over would have to take them into account. Would this universe continue on unmolested but without me? Could I defer my adventure until I was about to die anyway? Questions like those would make a big difference.
In that sense, it's no different than someone saying 'Come with me on my spaceship. I'll make you a king amongst my people on Betelguise IV.' Sounds very interesting, but I'd be abandoning everyone I know and love. Making the decision to do that is hard.
Simply redoing my life at thirteen with what I know now? That's a no-brainer. If I've got no one to stay for, sign me up.
I believe that one cannot know which butterflies are the important ones.
Agreed. Therefore each has to be considered important.
Agreed. Therefore each has to be considered important.
But you can't know which ones would have negative effects and which would have negative effects on other people. Because even with all your future knowledge, you still aren't omniscient.
Considering you can't know what effects they will have on whom (if you could, they wouldn't be butterflies), trying to factor them into your decision making would be an exercise in futility.
But you can't know which ones would have negative effects and which would have negative effects on other people. Because even with all your future knowledge, you still aren't omniscient.
So what? Just because they're considered important doesn't mean you can't say, eh, fuck it, and just use your knowledge to help create the best possible world for yourself that you can. Which actually means none of them are important - unless you CHOOSE to make them that way.
Because I went to a small school, I literally knew every kid in my high school class, and almost everyone in both the grade above AND below me. My wife - who I didn't meet until 20 years AFTER I graduated high school - went to a much larger school, and only knew half the kids in her class. However, courtesy of my OWN personal knowledge and my OWN determination of what butterflies are important, would certainly make sure that not only was I in much better physical shape when I came down with cancer (at the age of 23), but I would make certain I'd met her WELL before SHE came down with cancer. Fuck the rest of y'all. :)
Oh, and I'd sure as hell be having a talk with my Uncle, and setting up a Triple Crown winning bet on Seattle Slew BEFORE any of the races were run in '77. (Amusingly enough, I know HE would have done so, without hesitation.)
So what? Just because they're considered important doesn't mean you can't say, eh, fuck it, and just use your knowledge to help create the best possible world for yourself that you can. Which actually means none of them are important - unless you CHOOSE to make them that way.
Exactly right.
However Remus2 who I was replying to and first raised the butterfly effect as an issue made the exact opposite argument, that doing that would be selfish and unethical because of the possible negative consequences to other people due to the butterfly effect.
My point is that since butterfly effect level impacts are by definition unknowable, they cannot be relevant to your decision making. They also aren't relevant to the decision to accept or reject a do over because your actions in the here and now have the same kinds of impacts.
Everyone would have to base their decision on their own personal ethical and other standards.
I've stated my choice and the reason for it. To each their own.
My argument is not that they're important, but that you're prioritizing not upsetting new butterflies over possibly never upsetting previous butterflies.
From my perspective, it's unknowable whether (as a for instance) a minor one-car accident that I had as a teenager, where the only damage was to my car (and my pride) might also have caused someone to perhaps critically injure themselves repairing my car. How would I know if that happened, unless someone told me 'Hey, Fred crushed himself with the car lift while working on your car. Thought you should know!' Of course they would never say that - nothing good could come from it.
My point is that I cannot know if do-over me will do more inadvertent harm or inadvertent good, nor whether first-life me did more inadvertent harm than good.
Perhaps first-life me stomped on the butterfly that caused the Iraq war (both of them) and the butterfly that caused 9/11 and the butterfly that caused Russia to invade Ukraine. Yes, it's ridiculously unlikely, but it's unknowable.
To say that it's selfish to attempt a do-over is to say that the risk of doing something 'wrong' is higher in one's second time around than in one's first, or that our current universe is 'better' than others. Neither is a provable statement.
If our universe is 'worse' than others, the selfish action would be to not choose the do-over.
Again, I stated my answer and the reasons for. That doesn't make it the best, or the right answer, it just makes it mine.
Would this universe continue on unmolested but without me?
This is what I would assume. My life has already happened, so it can't unhappen. Therefore, I would be thinking branching universe. Also, as a huge risk taker, I'd go for different, going for better, or at least just as good, but mostly out of curiosity. (Also out of fear of trying for a redo and having things turn out worse! That would be devastating.)
That's also my assumption, but I don't consider it a given, mostly because (to the best of my knowledge) no one's tried it.
I'd consider 'Groundhog Day'-style do-overs to also be within the realm of plausibility, and in those things unhappen on a daily basis. Perhaps each is a branching universe, but it's as likely that they're simply discarded when the day restarts.
"There'll be bluebirds over
The white cliffs of Dover
Tomorrow, just you wait and see
There'll be love and laughter
And peace ever after
Tomorrow, when the world is free
The shepherd will tend his sheep
The valley will bloom again
And Jimmy will go to sleep
In his own little room again
There'll be bluebirds over
The white cliffs of Dover
Tomorrow, just you wait and see"
The white cliffs of Do-over.
My mother died of cancer just before I turned 13. I would not have to re-live her suffering. I still feel some pain from her passing, but I have learned much better how to deal with it.
More importantly, much of my life has been unfortunate timing. I am an early "Gen-X" and all through school they consolidated classes, instead of 2 rooms with 22 to 26 students, we had some 36 students and 1 teacher.
Several of my career choices were OTBE, such as being in ROTC (after 4 years active duty) when the Soviet Union collapsed. There are several other situations that seemed to be a good idea at the time; then unanticipated events, such as September 11th 2001 occurred.
I never married, never had children (that I am aware of, and I am near certain not). I came close to being married 4 times. Military deployments were significantly responsible for those not working out. 3 of those relationships I might be willing to repeat.
However, only one would I be willing to wed, at least during the time we had romantic relationships. (Only one of those 3 have a happy marriage now; a second might).
Different circumstances might result in different opportunities for career(s) and romance.
I would jump at the opportunity for a do-over.
I would jump at the opportunity for a do-over.
Out of a perfectly good airplane, even WITH a parachute?
That particular subject is one my wife and I have fun with. I'll go on roller coasters (albeit reluctantly) and do some things - I'll do (and have done) an Australian rappel down a cliff or out of a chopper. Jumping out of a perfectly good airplane? Nope! Same with getting right up to the edge of a REALLY tall building without a safety harness already attached. I know it's a psychological thing caused by incidents when I was a kid, but I don't care. Facing your fears is one thing - actually defeating them is another.
In case you're curious - and even if you're not - when I was real young, we were on a road trip and drove across the old Cairo Mississippi river bridge, when the flooring was just metal grates. Courtesy of speed, you couldn't SEE the grates, so it looked like we were driving on thin air, several hundred feet up. Scared the piss out of me, and to this day, a lot of bridges STILL scare me. I know why, I can cope (although the Dallas flyover stuff is nuts!), but I don't like it and avoid it if possible.
the old Cairo Mississippi river bridge
Curious to know, how did you pronounce Cairo? A native of Cairo, Georgia, told me theirs is pronounced "Karo" - like the syrup - and the nickname of the community is "surp city"
to this day, a lot of bridges STILL scare me.
Knowing how critical maintenance is deferred based on sketchy fracture analysis, every bridge worries me. It's just a matter of time before there is another I-35W bridge collapse.
Jumping out of a perfectly good airplane? Nope!
Easy. It's Not a "perfectly good aircraft" it's built by the lowest bidder! Maintained by mechanics that aren't on board...
Quality Control of the Parachutes are much better!
I've been at the Riggers Shed when they came, selected chutes, some at random, some by searching for any that appeared Not to be perfectly packed. Those went to the CO, XO, and PL, and senior NCOs! Loaded onto a "Duce-and-a-half" and straight to Green Ramp. Onto a C130, and "Quality Control test of the Parachutes."
I never had a serious malfunction of my main, and never had to deploy my reserve chute.
In recent years, I've begun asking people I know whether they would be willing, "knowing what you to now," to return to age 13 and live your teen years over again.
Phrasing also matters on this. It is easy to construe the question to mean "as a 13YO today" which would be a hard pass.
Now returning to when I was a 13YO, as my 13YO self but knowing what I know now? It changes a fair bit, but probably? My teenage years weren't a nightmare for me and family relationships were/are fine, although the loss of independence for 5 years would be annoying.
I must have asked that question of more than a hundred people.
How many of them replied that time travel isn't possible?
How many of them replied that time travel isn't possible?
That's the most interesting question here.
My high school experience would have been much better if I had spent 4 years in the Marine Corps first.
Oh, I don't know, from an outsider looking in, American schools seem to be as dangerous as the Marine Corps. They certainly seem to have the same amount of weapon possession...
They certainly seem to have the same amount of weapon possession...
wrong, the average US Marine has far less weapons except when deployed outside the USA.
average US Marine has far less weapons
Two hands, two feet, ten fingers, ten toes, one brain to make all of those lethal weapons. That's what a Marine carries with him ALL the time.
That premise is not the sole domain of Marines.
The human brain in general is the deadliest weapon on the planet. From it came nuclear bombs, biological weapons and all other forms of WMD.
From it came nuclear bombs, biological weapons and all other forms of WMD.
And Spongebob square pants and the Teletubies...
Ah... many cogent arguments. But they are all moot.
As a 13 year old... I was too hormone infused to pay attention to voices in my head.
Maybe I'd mitigate some mistakes, but pay close attention? Hardly likely.
Your mileage may vary.
As a 13 year old... I was too hormone infused to pay attention to voices in my head.
This implies your old self got transferred into the brain and has to coexist with the 13yo mind which still is in control.
In most DoOvers the old mind – including it's memories – get transferred into the 13yo brain, replacing the young mind and often it's memories too.
So you will run into problems if you can't remember what happened in the 13yo life prior to the transfer. Having the memory of your old self is no help, because you certainly have forgotten most details and even some major events of that time. The memory may come back after fact, but you'll not relive your life always knowing in advance what will happen in the next minutes.
As far as I'm concerned, I would accept a DoOver where I am in charge, not my 13yo self. I can't pinpoint what exactly I would change, because my memory of this time has large gaps. (I was convinced I was 13 during our first vacancies in Yugoslavia, but after my father's death I read his notices of this voyage - dates, places, costs, and a few photographs and the year was 1961 and I was 14!).
Whatever I would do, my life would change significantly, due to my knowledge. For instance, in school I had real problems learning foreign languages and quit school after year 10. My last grades were (converted to the US system) 'D' in English and an 'E' in French.
I think my only problem in the English classes in school would be their insistence on British English, any usage of Americanisms – in words, spelling and pronunciation – wasn't allowed back then. You would have thought they would at least tolerate American English, because we lived under American occupation, bot no chance.
HM.
I would relive my teen years again with great pleasure anytime. With groundhog day-ing every day up to, say, five times, just to experience all kinds of stupid shit. No time else I was so acutely regretful of only 24 hour a day than in my high school years (no, tight and missed deadlines at work don't cut even close).
Not that it was all rainbows and unicorns, but it was a great, intense, and interesting time, and just watching it in first person again, even if I couldn't change anything at all, I would enjoy tremendously.
Change I could seek, would, and likely prepare for -- what in effect could effect change on its own -- goes a bit later.
Funny, I sometimes "prepare" for a do-over in my mind, catch myself of taking notes, or even do it intentionally like scanning science news for things a time traveler could stole for great effect. Or simply make a mental remark like, "oh, that's... interesting... in the wrong way. Next time I would try to..." Perhaps that comes with territory, being a gamer at times prone to savescumming and cheating. In no other game than life itself it could be more rewarding (and more disastrous).
I do believe in butterfly effect, and the very fact of my memories of possible future entering the world would likely disturb the quantum state of that universe and reroll all true random elements within minutes (propagating at lightspeed) even before any of my unavoidably different decisions would enact tangible changes, even if it may take days or even years to manifest in macroscopic events differing significantly due to accumulation of difference.
For that reason alone I would not be keen to venture before 1991 or even 1992 if it can be avoided (dissolution of USSR the way it happened was as insanely improbable event as was it unavoidable, and being inside those events I wouldn't be very willing to visit worlds it went badly wrong), and my thirteen... end of 1989... is cutting it awfully close, without too obvious a payoff. (Like, in my individual situation, there's not even a lottery I could win millions a way it would make real difference -- hyperinflation and all that -- while the actual, very real opportunities that time entails were hardly available for a 13-15 year old who's more interested in watching neighbor girls skinny dipping all day long.) Even though it would be extremely interesting to revisit anyway.
On the universe branching, the easiest to reconcile the apparent time travel is that do-over is pure information transfer -- or insertion: there is no technical difference if the do-over character just had the "first life" as a particularly vivid, potentially clairvoyant dream and just woke up next day. (Yes, that's technically "discarding" the "first-life" universe.)
In fact, having clairvoyant dream better explain depply detailed future knowledge that actual time travel with couldn't possibly have world that stay fixed to that extent. The belief that it was actually lived experience is only important for confidence it has significance, and to explain the suddenly acquired practical knowledge.
For the morality discussion, the one's "morality" is always fine tuned to serve one's selfishness. It is impossible to not do harm. Any decision or indecision, the best or worst decision alike will always hurt someone, somewhere, it's inescapable. That doesn't absolve one from investing in the best decision possible with minimizes suffering to one's reasonable knowledge and limitations. But different decisions will result in different harm and suffering far more likely, and choice between those is the "moral" choice that is necessary selfish reflection on one's irrational beliefs and tribalism. Those should anyway be made and proved for one's conscience to survive (and not drive the owner to suicide), but pretending there's nothing selfish in moralistic calculus is... on itself selfish. (Maybe it's just me being accurately aware people mostly inhabit self invented words.)
If I was asked if I would go back knowing what I know now I would say hell NO. Even after 61 years on this marble I still don't know shit.
Even after 61 years on this marble I still don't know shit.
Wow! That's a really bad case of constipation. You should probably see a doctor about that. :)
Wow! That's a really bad case of constipation. You should probably see a doctor about that. :)
I see to many doctors as it is.
When we were young we bragged about the drugs we were told not to take to feel alive. As we got older we bitch about the drugs we are told we have to take to stay alive.
Even after 61 years on this marble I still don't know shit.
That's not very impressive - there are only seven different types ;-)
AJ
That's not very impressive - there are only seven different types ;-)
I don't even want to know why you know about that chart.
Over the years I've checked in to this forum to find some pretty good discussions problem is they seem to always get hijacked by infantile spamming attemps at humor. Now we have bathroom humor by third graders. good reminder to me to just stay away
Now we have bathroom humor by third graders.
To be fair, it IS a thread about do-overs, so we are simply returning to the time when we were third graders...
the time when we were third graders...
If you were still in third grade when you were 13 years old, that is truly an indictment upon the education system.
Or you're just mentally slow as fuck.
If you were still in third grade when you were 13 years old, that is truly an indictment upon the education system.
Depends on your education system. Third grade (year) in the UK would normally have pupils around the 13 year mark as you start secondary school at 11....
In the US we don't start grade numbering over moving from primary to secondary school. It's one grade numbering scheme from K-12.
Primary is generally K-5 and secondary 6-12.
Kindergarten is generally age 5(+/- 1 year), so third graders would be 8(+/- 1).
Would [you] be willing, "knowing what you to now," to return to age 13 and live your teen years over again?
Age 13, no way. Maybe starting at 16? At least driving and working real jobs would be an option.
I wrote a do over story (50 Something Teenager) and set the character at ~18 and a senior in high school. One plot element was the memory of a long shot upset sporting event. He bet big, won big, and then used some of that money to start investing in the stock market.
I think the age depends enormously on one's personal history. I'd like the opportunity to make changes during my high school years. Others would be happy with how high school worked out and would want to come back later.
I think the age depends enormously on one's personal history.
More like when you think it all went wrong. :)
I'm doing over a four leaf clover that I over did before.
Time travel backwards is basically a divine level of magic. So that's not a factor for me.
I'd wager that if I did 'go back in time', I'm not actually going back in time, the 'divine' is just hitting rewind on the tape deck, and then hitting play after a bit - and for some reason my mind didn't rewind.
So I'd have no qualms about it. There's a ton of bad choices I made in life that I would alter. But not in the 'get rich and have control of everything manner'.
I'd assume I wasn't the only one and that some of the others would be an issue were I to make myself too well perceived. So I'd just clean up my mess and find a way to live a lot happier path. Let some other set of fools kill each other over which one buys out Apple first.