I've been thinking lately about setting up a Patreon page for subscribers to view advance chapters, etc... but I'm starting to think that either Gumroad or Substack might be better (for an author).
Does anyone have any preferences or prior experiences with these platforms?
as an author and as a reader I refuse to use any of them for a number of personal reasons - manly due to all the rip-offs I've seen done and the site managers don't give a shit about it. Thus I don't trust them.
I don't trust them
Pretty much what he said.
I have ONE 3D graphic artist I support on Patreon. The artist also provides additional content to his supporters, and I get what I perceive to be my money's worth of enjoyment from his content.
YMMV. If you're going to write for a living, good luck! If not, then I personally don't think it's worth it. There's an author on this site that I USED to like reading. And he won a lot of awards twenty years ago. Not a lot since then.
His blurb here is - I hope you enjoy my stories. Start with the free ones here.
To me, there's a difference between building a following, then moving new content behind a paywall, and offering early access, advance copies, work in progress, whatever, for people who are interested.
That's not necessarily the difference between 'for a living' and not. There's a lot of ground in between.
I don't have any of them; I still haven't gotten to the point of putting the published volumes on Bookapy (which I should, and I know it). But I support one SoL author and a number of other people on Patreon. It's worth it to me.
I would stop supporting them (any of them, not just the author) if their work switched to being paywalled. That's not the case for any of them. It's much more a reasonable way of offering a tip or some support for their work/art. In every case, the support level I'm at gets me, at most, slightly early access to something I could have for free without paying.
I do have reason to distrust sites of that nature in general, yet they're better than nothing. I wish we had better ones, but some of those are very hard problems, especially if you get into anything at all that's 'adult' in nature.
I have no experience (as a user or, obviously, publisher) with Gumroad or Substack, so can't comment.
Is that rip off done by people with Patreon pages, or by the sites?
If a content creator can get treated fairly there, then I don't see the risk for an author using it.
I suggest transparency, making sure to put out the free side of stuff when you claim you actually will, and making sure you provide value to people paying.
The biggest hurdle you face with something like this is you will now be under pressure to produce content on time. Failing to do so will cause subscribers to begin thinking you're one of the rip-offs.
Is that rip off done by people with Patreon pages, or by the sites?
Most of the rip off is done by the creators not meeting their promises or putting out garbage to meet a date. However, as to the sites themselves I find some of their terms very disturbing and while they promise to behave they have a great potential to rip off the creators as they include phrases like:
quote from Patreon terms of service for creators:
By posting creations on Patreon you grant us a royalty-free, perpetual, irrevocable, non-exclusive, sublicensable, worldwide licence to use, reproduce, distribute, perform, publicly display or prepare derivative works of your creation.
end quote
While they claim they need it to promote the creators work there is absolutely no reason for promotional activities for them to give a sub-license or to allow a derivative work or to transfer their rights.
Quote of the similar term in Gumroad:
You hereby grant to Gumroad and its licensees a worldwide, perpetual, non- exclusive, fully-paid, royalty-free, transferable right and license, with right to sublicense, to reproduce, publicly display, distribute, perform, transmit, edit, modify, create derivatives works of, publish, sell, commercially exploit, use, and disclose the Submissions for any purpose and in all forms and all media whether now known or to become known in the future. Gumroad shall have no obligation to compensate you for any such Submissions in any manner.
Quote from Substack policies:
You agree that this limited license includes a worldwide, nonexclusive, sublicensable, royalty-free, fully paid-up, transferable right (a) to market your newsletters and to permit others to use, access, and download your newsletters through Substack, and (b) to use your tradename(s), trademark(s), and logo(s) in connection with the distribution and marketing of newsletters.
It's very difficult to start on one of those and see some positive result from it. Basically you already have to have a substantional number of devoted followers to see some revenue. The other side of the coin is that many people avoid those sites like the plague, both readers and authors. Like Ernest said, they feel like a scam. Patreon is one of those sites I have completely blocked in my browser, too much 'dirt' behind the scenes.
For fastest and easiest results you could list your books on Bookapy. It's the closest to the readers that already know you and should result in a few sales.
On this topic. anyone know what happened to 'Pan'(pan who writes)?
they started a Patreon charging per 10k words, but I've not seen any action here in about two years.
Was it lucrative for them or did they just give up? they had some very good series. some of which encouraged me to write. but this absence is disturbing.
there were other benefits too, like private discord server, though with the rule changes there that may no longer be viable.
They have another gig which is quite lucrative. I think they are still writing smut and publishing but I don't know about their patreon. They may have stopped posting here when the new rules came in. I read somewhere they were pulling $5k a month from Amazon and kobo at one point
On this topic. anyone know what happened to 'Pan'(pan who writes)?
they started a Patreon charging per 10k words, but I've not seen any action here in about two years.
Patreon has rules against both mind control and incest(which I think may have been initially imposed by way of VISA being leveraged against Patreon by activists), which basically shut down his ability to monetize with Patreon because he exclusively wrote Mind Control stories that often featured incest.
Amazon's Kindle Unlimited is also dangerous territory for Mind Control, even skipping KU and just requiring outright purchase seems to be dangerous ground for an Author publishing on Kindle, and incest is a non-starter.
Patreon has rules against both mind control and incest
Why would anyone censor mind control? Incest I can understand, but MC?
Pan writes pseudo-incest mind control. He's actually been featured in two articles online about how he makes money and his formula (10k one shots, sticking to the same tropes/themes).
His Patreon is still active and making money.
Why would anyone censor mind control? Incest I can understand, but MC?
Consent and how it relates to rape.
Consent and how it relates to rape.
Do they not allow rape in stories? There are a lot of great novels that contain rape scenes. As to mind control, there are a lot of great psychological thrillers that could be considered mind control.
I can understand things that are illegal to write about. Incest. Underage sex. Bestiality. But mind control? Rape? (yeah rape is not legal, but either is murder and there are tons of murder mysteries and thrillers).
I don't understand not allowing mind control.
Underage sex.
In the US, it would have to be ruled 'obscene' under the 'Miller Test' to be illegal:
(a) whether the average person, applying contemporary community standards would find that the work, taken as a whole, appeals to the prurient interest;
(b) whether the work depicts or describes, in a patently offensive way, sexual conduct specifically defined by the applicable state law;
(c) whether the work, taken as a whole, lacks serious literary, artistic, political, or scientific value
A long-form story that discussed politics, philosophy, religion, and so on, would, under part (c), not be obscene, even if it included adolescents having sex with adults.
Of course, defending that in court would be difficult and expensive, and even winning could be a losing proposition.
In the US, it would have to be ruled 'obscene' under the 'Miller Test' to be illegal:
Depends on the state and the ages as the legal age for sex varies between the states in the US.
Depends on the state and the ages as the legal age for sex varies between the states in the US.
If it passes (c) and involves teenagers, it's highly unlikely to be found obscene. The First Amendment doesn't allow restrictions on textual media except if they fail (c). But as I said, I wouldn't want to defend such a case.
Specifically on point:
Pornography Is Protected by the First Amendment
In A Book Named "John Cleland's Memoirs of a Woman of Pleasure" v. Attorney General of Massachusetts (1966), the Supreme Court considered a state effort to have a sexually explicit book declared obscene and therefore banned under state law. Not so fast, the justices told the Bay State. Even a "patently offensive" pornographic work, the Court held, is still protected by the First Amendment. "A book cannot be proscribed unless it is found to be utterly without redeeming social value."
According to Miller v. California (1973), "state statutes designed to regulate obscene materials must be carefully limited." A state may only prohibit a work for being obscene if the work meets all of the following criteria:
(a) whether "the average person, applying contemporary community standards" would find that the work, taken as a whole, appeals to the prurient interest…(b) whether the work depicts or describes, in a patently offensive way, sexual conduct specifically defined by the applicable state law; and (c) whether the work, taken as a whole, lacks serious literary, artistic, political, or scientific value.
That's the law of the land, per SCOTUS.
If it passes (c) and involves teenagers, it's highly unlikely to be found obscene. The First Amendment doesn't allow restrictions on textual media except if they fail (c). But as I said, I wouldn't want to defend such a case.
I have heard of cases where text stories were prosecuted as obscenity under the Miller test.
However, all of the successful prosecutions I have heard of went well beyond mere under-age sex. They involved stories with graphic depictions of the violent rape and torture of prepubescent children.
They involved stories with graphic depictions of the violent rape and torture of prepubescent children.
That's why I said adolescent in my original post:
A long-form story that discussed politics, philosophy, religion, and so on, would, under part (c), not be obscene, even if it included adolescents having sex with adults.
I can understand things that are illegal to write about. Incest. Underage sex. Bestiality. But mind control? Rape? (yeah rape is not legal, but either is murder and there are tons of murder mysteries and thrillers).
I don't understand not allowing mind control.
Major online companies tend to be overly conservative in where they draw the line, and stay well clear of the fringes, unless another major company is taking its own share of the heat as well.
And just because it is legal in the United States doesn't mean they're going to give it an "all clear" either.
It is trivially easy for Canadians to bring US-distribution-only material into Canada when it is digital. People in the UK, Australia, and New Zealand can too with a bit more effort. So for Amazon for example, it's easier to just have all of their English language digital media governed under the same set of rules, as that further allows them to only need one group of people to do all enforcement for the English language for example. So the lowest common denominator amongst the English speaking nations potentially sets the standard for Amazon Kindle.
Diverging from there, we also have the matter of the payment processors to address. As Amazon lives and dies on their ability to process credit card transactions, VISA itself has considerable authority it can (and sometimes does) exercise where "digital goods" are concerned, and federal regulators haven't been shy about using that to "back door" proscriptions in the past. Such as obligating payment processors to ensure that where "sexual content" is concerned, nobody under the age of 18 was involved. Yes, the US has 1st Amendement protections for text based stories--so long as they're fictional accounts. But Amazon would have to do some work to verify those stories are in fact fictional, so while they'll happily sell you a print version of that story if an author wants to self-publish, it won't be distributed digitally unless a major publisher is backing the work and makes it an issue for Amazon. Small time publishers need not even bother to try.
Such as obligating payment processors to ensure that where "sexual content" is concerned, nobody under the age of 18 was involved.
Yes, I get that. Underage sex. Bestiality. Incest.
But I don't get mind control?
I remember a movie ("The Rack" starring Paul Newman) I saw years ago that was about an American soldier on trial for collaborating with the enemy while a POW. He was brainwashed by the North Koreans. They broke him. Not physically, but mentally. Mind control.
That story could not be sold on Patreon?
That story could not be sold on Patreon?
Here is the relevant section of Patreon's Community Guidelines:
Offensive and graphic creations:
We understand that artists sometimes have to push boundaries to create thought-provoking art, so we don't review offensive and graphic creations with strict black and white guidelines. We instead review creations in the context of the whole creator page.
However, we have zero tolerance when it comes to the glorification of sexual violence which includes bestiality, rape, and child exploitation (i.e., sexualized depiction of minors). This is true for illustrated, animated, or any other type of creations. Patreon reserves the right to review and remove accounts that may violate this guideline.
We also do not allow other fringe sexual fetish creations, such as incest, necrophilia, or fetish creations that are hard to distinguish from non-consensual sex.
We understand that some topics on this list such as incest or rape are a little bit more complicated because these situations are, unfortunately, part of real life. As a result, when reviewing these types of creations, the Trust and Safety team will take into consideration context including personal, historical or educational narrative. For example, survivor stories or fiction such as Lolita are allowed on Patreon.
They would classify mind-control non-consensual. Notice that while they ban 'sexualized depiction of minors', they exempt Lolita and make the rationale completely subjective.
Okay, it's not mind control. It's not even incest. It's sexual violence, sexual fetish, sexual etc. It's what they subjectively consider obscene.
Why would anyone censor mind control? Incest I can understand, but MC?
See I would look at that the other way around.
MC is rape fiction. That's about 10 orders worse than incest.
MC is rape fiction. That's about 10 orders worse than incest.
Sites like Amazon will publish a novel with rape. It won't with incest, bestiality, or underage sex.
It won't with incest, bestiality, or underage sex.
Yes they will. They might take it down if someone complains, but they are not reviewing works at that level before they go up.
That's the same as not allowing it.
But it will go up in the first place and that is publishing it, which is the way your original comment was worded.
But it will go up in the first place and that is publishing it, which is the way your original comment was worded.
I meant it's against their rules. Worse thing that can happen on Amazon is to have a bunch of sales and then get your novel taken down for violating their rules and they keep your royalties.
Worse thing that can happen on Amazon is to have a bunch of sales and then get your novel taken down for violating their rules and they keep your royalties.
That will depend on how many sales over what time period, how often Amazon pays out royalties, and how long it takes someone to complain about your novel so Amazon takes it down.
and how long it takes someone to complain about your novel so Amazon takes it down.
It's best to follow the rules and not have to deal with that. I have some novels that are Bookapy only because they violate the Amazon age rule.
But my point was that Amazon doesn't have a rule prohibiting rape, MC or otherwise, but they do for the other three. That's what I was commenting on.
I don't remember which BBS (Bulletin Board System) from back in the day but they didn't allow mind control stories as they considered mind control a form of enforced slavery.
Personally I found it funny that they took such a big stance against mind control but rape and unconsenting sex stories where ok and exceptable. But hey it was their site so follow their rules and as I said I just personally found it funny.
Revisiting this thread for an interesting development. I have a ko-fi. I have received a small amount of financial appreciation through this.
Today I found out that my account has been delisted temporarily for review Because they use PayPal and Stripe as their to payment processes, and because I used the words "romantic smut" in my profile it appears I have tripped some kind of puritanical safeguard.
Not sure what this means. Does that mean you have to become a writer of lightly filthy work who uses only fans?
Not sure what this means. Does that mean you have to become a writer of lightly filthy work who uses only fans?
You have to be creative in how you market yourself. I'm using Patreon and BuyMeACoffee, and while my pages are marked 18+, I've ensured that the descriptions are PG/PG-13 and don't use words that might trigger such filters.
Patreon expressly permits adult material, with some caveats. You'd have to see if their TOS fits your writing or not. Much depends on if you are using it for search discovery, or just to allow people you find in other ways to support you.
I just changed everything to 'writer', removed web links and any reference to 'romantic smut', appealed the delisting and I am back. For now.
I just changed everything to 'writer', removed web links and any reference to 'romantic smut', appealed the delisting and I am back. For now.
That's why I am moving towards only having the material available via Sync.com. It's end-to-end encrypted (even they can't see what's on their servers) and downloads can be locked to invitation only.
It's not a payment platform, but it keeps prying eyes out, unlike DropBox, Google Drive, OneDrive, etc. And that's why I use Backblaze for backups (completely encrypted to the point where they can't even see the filenames)
Not sure what this means. Does that mean you have to become a writer of lightly filthy work who uses only fans?
PayPal explicitly disallows its use for payments involving pornographic materials. It's why you don't have it as a payment option for SOL.
I don't write porn. I write romance that doesn't fuck around, by having the characters fuck around.
I am not a lawyer, but sounds like they might as well just say "If your work is good enough, we're going to sell the movie rights and keep the proceeds - tough luck, sucker!"
I am not a lawyer, but sounds like they might as well just say "If your work is good enough, we're going to sell the movie rights and keep the proceeds - tough luck, sucker!"
ayep