Forum: Author Hangout

seems a long way to run for a small change

I'm a perfectionist. Can't help it.

As to starting slow, think about a person in a bookstore deciding on which book to buy. The blurb has to get their attention. Then what do they do? They start reading the novel. If their interest isn't piqued, they put the book back on the shelf and look at the next one. It's important to grab the reader's attention from the start.

Sounds like your first chapter is more a prologue. And that's why many people don't read prologues.

A Beta reader on my first novel told me the beginning was boring. I thought I had to give the reader background on the heroine to understand why she was doing things. I ended up deleting the first 3 1/2 chapters and sprinkling that information in later.

That's not unlike what I do when choosing which library novels to borrow, not that I've borrowed any since Covid first closed the local library.

AJ

However some consider me to be a bit odd

A person I knew back in the 1970s read the end of the novel to see if she'd like it. She was odd.

A person I knew back in the 1970s read the end of the novel to see if she'd like it. She was odd.

Not really, IMO. Some people want to be reassured that there's a happy ending. It's probably more common than you think.

AJ

seems a long way to run for a small change

Editing is a marathon, not a sprint ;-)

AJ

Editing is a marathon, not a sprint ;-)

Tell me about it. My chapters go through this:
I write them
I read them and correct what I find.
They go to my first editor, then I go through what he found and make corrections.
They go to my second editor, then I go through what he found and make corrections. Many of his are word choice as opposed to real errors at this point, so most of the time it's me going, huh, do I like that better, or mine?
They go to my third editor, and then I look at what he's come up with, which are mostly grammar issues by this point or again, the word choice discussions.
I typically read them again, this time aloud, to make sure things make sense, and that conversation flows. Many times the 'errors' are because people do NOT speak grammatically perfect English, and that's how I write conversations.
Then, if I have time (like today), I read the chapter ONE last time before I put it in the queue.

Amusingly enough, I found a major error in the chapter I'm posting today. They're having a Fourth of July celebration, and they talk about it being the 211th anniversary of the founding of the country. Except it's 1985, which is the 209th anniversary. Mind you, three other sets of eyes (and ears) have seen this chapter, plus ME at least twice. Just saved myself some emails from eagle-eyed readers!

Then, if I have time (like today), I read the chapter ONE last time before I put it in the queue.

There's a critical edit that's missed doing it this way. By "this way" I mean editing and posting chapters before the entire story is finished and edited. What's missed is a consistency check. Each chapter could be perfect, but something that happened in Chapter 25 might be inconsistent with what happened in Chapter 10.

It's best to read the story from beginning to end in one sitting to make sure it's consistent throughout. I can't do that for novels because I'm a slow reader, but I do read a novel from beginning to end, but not in one sitting.

What's missed is a consistency check. Each chapter could be perfect, but something that happened in Chapter 25 might be inconsistent with what happened in Chapter 10.

I do my consistency checks while I'm writing. There's a reason why I have a 22 page timeline file as well as two other files for extra information that will need to come up later.

For a literary example, the first section (my vague memory says 40-50 pages) of Umberto Eco's 'Foucault's Pendulum' is dense, slow, and nearly impenetrable. I nearly threw it across the room a few times.

If I'd done so, I'd have missed an amazing, fast-paced, insightful, hilarious literary romp. The book is great; the opening is not.

Not many authors can get away with that, and it's best avoided if you can help it.

I've really got no idea where I should be looking to place my breaks

Some people say chapters are artificial to the point that you know how many chapters you want, know the word count, divide the two, and presto there are your chapter breaks. I don't agree. But I do agree about the chapter size.

I typically write short chapters, say 1,500–3,000 words. I've had 6,000 word chapters and chapters under 1,000 words, but they're the exception. So I keep word count in mind when deciding if I should keep going or start a new chapter.

A scene change can occur when one or more of the following changes: POV character (in 3rd-limited), time, location. A chapter is usually a scene.

I like to leave a chapter with a page turner. Not necessarily a cliffhanger, although I do have those in my thrillers. But simply something that the reader is anxious to find out what happens next. Makes them start the next chapter (turn the page).

I'll give an example in my WIP. My MC (1st-person narrator) is on her first date. They go to the movies. After the movie the boy takes her parking at a place called Canarsie Pier (a make out place in Brooklyn at the time). The entire date could be a single chapter. But I broke it into two: a 2,324 word chapter and a 2,407 word chapter. Remember, 5,000 words is long for my chapters.

But the chapter break was more than word count. The first of the two chapters ends after the movie and the boy telling the girl he is taking her to Canarsie Pier. The chapter ends with:

I clutched my hands in my lap. This was different. This wasn't going to a movie with other people around. But what did I know about a date? Maybe this was what kids did on a date. I was as nervous as I had been when the date started.

Hopefully, the reader feels her anxiety and can't wait to find out what happens. The next chapter begins with:

The ride to Canarsie was short, and when we got into the area it looked familiar. I had an aunt and uncle who lived in an apartment building in Canarsie. My grandmother lived with them so we visited often. On Sundays. I just never knew that part of Brooklyn was called Canarsie and never heard of Canarsie Pier. But how bad could it be? It was where my grandmother lived.

No POV change. No time change. No location change. They drove from the movies to the pier (if the first chapter ended at the movies and the second chapter began with them at the pier, then it would be a location change). It could easily have been a single chapter.

As a reader, the beauty of your approach is that it also gives me a good stopping point. I can stop reading at the end of the chapter with a sense of completion, but also with an understanding of why, exactly, I want to read the next chapter.

That is why I do it. That's what I like as a reader so it carries over to me as an author.

I read a lot of thrillers which have short chapters that many end with cliffhangers. Sometimes I start reading the next chapter just to see how the cliffhanger resolves itself with no intention of reading the chapter. Just so I can get to sleep.

are these simple text files or work in some sort of app designed to support writing as a craft?

Just a Libre Office document, no actual app. But each paragraph is however long it needs to be to summarize the important information from that chapter. Here's an example:

Chap 10 – Monday, Sep 10 – dinner at Ponderosa, Rusty stabbed, Don arrested, Cal put in charge of funds / Tuesday, Sep 11 – school, practice, pack Emily's clothes and arrange furniture, sex with Beth in shower / Wednesday, Sep 12 – Groceries, move furniture / Thursday, Sep 13 – meet with Elroy & Earl, find out total wealth / Friday, Sep 14 – school normal, show up for game

As I run a dual monitor set-up, that makes it easy for me to have my typing screen up, and my reference screen just to the side where I can pull up whatever it is I need to see. I have folders on my HDD for my research documents, as well as bookmarked tabs for web searching. (Interesting that the server is down for Liam's Nuclear Blast Radius Calculator today - and yes, that's a real website I've used in doing research.)

I write in Times New Roman using a 14 point font, and try to have chapters about 30 pages. Under the old system that the site used, where chapters would be broken up, that would be two pages. For comparison, a chapter from Tefler's 'Three Square Meals' would be four - five pages in length. My actual chapter breaks are where I think they should be when I'm writing, which is usually 30 - 32 pages, and I steer things that way. I'm also obnoxious in that I try to at least have a minor cliffhanger of some kind at the end of each chapter, although sometimes I don't.

But each paragraph is however long it needs to be to summarize the important information from that chapter.

I have a file (in MS Word) like that too. I summarize each chapter as I plan to write it/while I'm writing it/when I finish it. I use it to find where stuff was that I wrote. I can also read the summaries to get a flow of the story without reading the entire story. Here's an example of one of my chapter summaries:

Chapter 4 (2,324 words)
Joey and Julie go on a date to the movies. She's terrified but has a good time. In the movie Joey feeds her Milk Duds (with his fingers inside her mouth) and holds her with her head on his shoulder. After the movie she thinks the date is over but he says it's not and asks if she wants to go to Canarsie Pier. With trepidation, she agrees.

In that same Word file, before the chapter summaries, I have a list of working titles, the long and short description, information about the characters, and any research I've done. And at the end, after the last summarized chapter, I have notes about what I want to write in future chapters. When it gets incorporated in a chapter, I delete it.

I had to comment, because this is very close to my process.

My current process is:
Write chapter N

Write chapters N+1 - N+20 (or so). While doing this, backfill changes/corrections/consistency/omissions/etc into N

Read N (using ProWritingAid), correcting what I find. Often this triggers a bit of consistency double-checking.

Send N to first editor, incorporate corrections
Send N to second editor, who will do two passes and likely adjust more.
Send N to third, fourth, fifth editors, incorporate corrections
Send N to first editor for second pass
Recheck, put in queue

My goal is to have at least 10 chapters post-editing waiting to post and at least 20 chapters pre-editing, with probably 10 or so somewhere in the editing cycle.

As with StarFleetCarl, my consistency work happens during writing based on notes and memory. I have an outline document covering what needs to happen next and all sorts of semi-structured notes about characters and such. I agree with Switch Blayde that it'd be nice to do a full-story consistency check, too, but in practice it's not likely to happen.

I write something not quite conversational English and not quite grammatically perfect English. There are many times where I 'hear' things that are incorrect and better expressed correctly, and others that stay incorrect. It depends - a number of differences are regional and, while they feel right to me, they feel wrong to readers from other areas while not adding verisimilitude.

With this whole process, a small error makes it out to publication about one chapter in three. Larger errors are less common.

Of course, with my story it's vaguely possible that 1985 could be the 211th anniversary :) By this point in the story, though, I think my MC would've noticed all of the 1774's and expressed concern ... unless, of course, it's always been 1774 for him and he'd be baffled by anyone claiming it was 1776. That could happen (but is very unlikely to actually happen).

Also, the previous paragraph is one of those conversation things - I would completely expect someone around here to say "I think he'd have noticed all the 1774's." That 'of' is commonly omitted. In other places, it's not, and readers who expect it generally don't see the missing 'of' as dialectical but instead just wrong. I'm much better at just going ahead and writing 'of', even when I don't hear it in my head as the characters talk.

this is at the dead tree and peer-reviewed level; it may not be time-efficient for the average SOL author to be doing this level of editing.

I believe any author who is serious about their writing should do as much as the dead tree publishers. If anything, it's the publishers who are constrained by cost. The SOL author simply uses time.

Time is a cost even/especially for an amateur author.

I knew that would come up. Then SOL authors are economically foolish. The time they spend writing could be spent making money. Maybe that's why so many authors are now selling their stories rather than giving them away.

Then SOL authors are economically foolish. The time they spend writing could be spent making money. Maybe that's why so many authors are now selling their stories rather than giving them away.

Of course we are. But there's not a lot of actual authors that aren't that way. (Yes, you can point out the exceptions, but those are the exception, not the rule.) Actual rate of return and return on investment is incredibly low when measured monetarily. However, we also do things that aren't financially profit motivated frequently.

Going to help out at a soup kitchen is time that could be spent making money. Playing with your kids is time that could be spent making money. Taking the family on a vacation is time that could be spent making money.

People get the quote wrong all the time. Money is not the root of all evil. 'For the LOVE of money is the root of all evil' is the KJV unedited quote. I started writing my stories because I wanted to prove to myself that I could do it. I had to be convinced by readers to actually put them on Bookapy. It's nice that people will 'tip' me for my work, but this isn't what I do to put bread on the table full time. (That's the 80% of the 3% for me.) If someone wants to buy a copy of my book, great, I appreciate it, and it gives me a little extra money to help OTHER people. If not, I'm still going to write, because this is fun.

Then SOL authors are economically foolish.

I was being facetious.

opportunity cost of X

Yep, I have an MBA. But in capitalism, it all ends up being about money.

Yep, I have an MBA. But in capitalism, it all ends up being about money.

Writing a story to post on SOL is less remunerative than flipping burgers. Don't all rush to McDonald's at once ;-)

I've just noticed a triangle of pale little dots in the bottom right corner of this pane. No doubt someone will tell me it's been there for years and does something extremely clever. Hint!

AJ

Thank you.

It seems I'm not quite too old to learn ;-)

AJ

This.

And maybe the fun they have while writing and the satisfaction after completion of story is worth a lot more than money to them.

I was responding to: "this is at the dead tree and peer-reviewed level; it may not be time-efficient for the average SOL author to be doing this level of editing."

I believe an author should have the goal/motivation to produce a product as good as the professionals. That includes a certain level of editing. Now I'm not saying an amateur author should pay for editing services, but traditional publishers do. That's the cost I was referring to. And lately, they seem to be doing it less and less. I find errors all the time in articles I read online. And I take issue with that. We are becoming a civilization of "Oh, it doesn't have to be perfect. Let's just get it out there. That's good enough." Not for me.

and the reader has to accept what he gets.

As a reader, I don't accept poor writing.

I agree that not everyone has the skills, but they should make the effort.

You always have the choice to read it or not.

Which is why I finish very few stories on SOL.

And it affects my scoring. I remember the teenagers on wattpad crying "Spelling doesn't matter. Punctuation doesn't matter. Grammar doesn't matter." As I said, today's generation is literate deprived.

I find errors all the time in articles I read online.

Me too. And, increasingly, in traditionally published novels too.

An agent explained the latter to me. He said that mainstream publishers do very little editing these days, expecting authors to have done it for them.

AJ

An agent explained the latter to me. He said that mainstream publishers do very little editing these days, expecting authors to have done it for them.

To cut costs. They aren't what they used to be. That's why I decided not to go that route. Not only don't they provide the editing they used to, but expect you to do the marketing. Really?

Not only don't they provide the editing they used to, but expect you to do the marketing.

That's the part that would kill me. I'm not a people person.

AJ

I agree. I try to make each new story set a higher level of competency in all aspects.

I've written long enough that I have a standard style. Since the elements of my style doesn't change much. I am left with placing the narrative within that framework.

I do all of my own editing as I write. I try to be meticulous and still get occasional mistakes. It's not from a lack of systematized trying. It's more like shit happens, lol.

I would just post the thing in it's entirety.

He won't get as many reads. If someone misses it when it's posted, they'll probably never see it after it leaves the New Stories section. But if he posts a chapter at a time, it'll be in the Update section each time he posts a chapter. So maybe he should post the first few chapters at once and then a chapter at a time.

That would certainly be a sensible compromise.

that was my understanding of the method of posting on set days

Actually, I try to vary the days of the week. I have no idea if my logic is sound, but I would guess different people use the system on different days. Like maybe someone only uses SOL on the weekends so if I only post on Mondays they'd never see it.

Has Covid influenced those numbers? I would expect working from home to have smoothed the distribution.

AJ

Thanks.

AJ

The rest of the days are fairly in the same range.

Is there any basis to my assumption that different users log on different days of the week? Like a group of users only log on on weekends and a group only logs on non-weekends?

I polled my readers and picked the top reader choices for posting days. Once set, they don't vary (unless I do a bonus chapter or - once, so far - fail to click the posting-time-setting button and post immediately rather than at a set time).

I'm expecting to suffer those slings and arrows for the majority of the feedback I receive.

When people ask for writing advice, my first advice is to grow thick skin.

As to feedback: Keep in mind who is giving the feedback. You consider yourself an amateur author. Well, they are amateur critiquers. Take the feedback with a grain of salt. They are not experts.

The most important person you have to please is yourself.

When I was just getting Book 1 underway, about twenty chapters in, I was getting roughly equal amounts of feedback that said the equivalent of:

Why did you say 'Some Sex'? Your story is all sex! There's nothing else there!

Or:

Why did you say 'Some Sex'? Your story has no sex!

Multiple copies of each, from readers that I assume weren't coordinating their comments.

So ... no possible way to reconcile those two. I can understand what I think they meant - one camp meant there's no actual sex sex, the other than the story was in large part about dating and looking for sex - but any change would annoy the other group. It had what I felt was the right balance of sex, romance, friendship, and other plot, so everyone else was welcome to enjoy or not as they choose.

But I'm still glad they wrote to me and, often, were willing to listen when I wrote back.

Also, you may well have readers express criticism in a way that you can't understand. I've had readers who don't express themselves well write in with praise that looked like complaint, and complaint that looked like praise. It happens.

I doubt I'd be able to maintain a posting schedule between stories

No one does. What I mean by establishing a process and maintain it is like what I do - post a new story, make a blog entry about it, then have a new section of post (i.e. chapter) every other day. Thus my regular readers or those who read me blog, know to expect a new post every other day until the story ends.

I know other authors have a process where they post on a particular day of each week when they post a new story, while others have a specific set days.

I know other authors have a process where they post on a particular day of each week

I go out of my way not to do that. That's why I'm wondering if my assumption is wrong. That I'd get the same number of readers seeing my story if I post every Monday (or whatever day) vs post on Monday and then on Tuesday and then on Wednesday and so on back to on Monday and then Tuesday.

I've re-read the current story I'm working on at least 4 or 5 times and each time I pick up some other error that I've previously missed.

Don't worry, when you re-read the story 2 years later you'll likely find more, anyway.

Don't worry, when you re-read the story 2 years later you'll likely find more, anyway.

And not only find errors. But find "Oh, I should have worded it that way" or "Why did I tell the reader that then vs wait until later."