Forum: Author Hangout

The passing of time....

tjcase 🚫

I will be the first to say I am not 'well' read. But I do read a lot. 100+ books a year and the odd 30-50 on this site.

What I have found the past couple years on this site and many Kindle Unlimited self publishers, is the lack of the element of time.

Characters build mansions in a month. New technology is found, prototyped, mass produced in a month.

In one part of a story it takes 5 days to travel each way to a place. And the character has been there 8 times in the last week of the story.

I completely understand this is fiction, fantasy, syfy. This isn't real. But isn't the passage of time an element to all stories? Not looking for reality, just possibly a little more attention to time.

My 2 cents and annual rant. Thanks.

Tom

Replies: StarFleet Carl Switch Blayde palamedes Ernest Bywater richardshagrin Remus2 Grey Wolf Paladin_HGWT

StarFleet Carl 🚫

@tjcase

the lack of the element of time.

You can blame it on Cher - those authors listened to her and tried to do it.

Switch Blayde 🚫

@tjcase

on this site and many Kindle Unlimited self publishers

That's part of the problem. Do you find it happening in traditionally published books?

Replies: Dominions Son BlacKnight Dicrostonyx

Dominions Son 🚫

@Switch Blayde

Do you find it happening in traditionally published books?

I have read DTP books that did not clearly and cleanly deal with the passage of time, though nothing so blatant as what the OP describes.

Not so much things happening in an impossibly short time frame, but more leaving the time frame of the story undefined. Cases where there is clearly passage of time between chapters/scenes but no clear delineation of how much time is passing. Did the whole story take days, weeks, months, years? The author never makes that clear.

Replies: Switch Blayde

Switch Blayde 🚫

@Dominions Son

more leaving the time frame of the story undefined.

I do that sometimes. It's sometimes when I start a new chapter.

Replies: Dominions Son

Dominions Son 🚫

@Switch Blayde

I do that sometimes. It's sometimes when I start a new chapter.

For me as a reader that is something that detracts from the story. Though usually not enough to kill an otherwise good story.

BlacKnight 🚫

@Switch Blayde

GRRM has notoriously said that travel in ASoIaF happens "at the speed of plot", so sometimes Westeros seems like it's maybe the size of Great Britain, and other times it's more like all of Europe.

The TV show took it to ridiculous extremes, with at one point a group traveling north from the Wall for several days, being attacked by ice zombies, and sending one of their number to run back to the Wall, send a messenger raven from the fort at the Wall half the length of the continent to alert the dragon queen to their plight, and then the queen flying back half the length of the continent with her dragons to rescue them while they were still fighting the ice zombies. I mean, seriously, unless these are Pern dragons, which can not only teleport but time travel, they're gonna be zombie chow long before that raven even takes wing.

Replies: Dominions Son PotomacBob maracorby

Dominions Son 🚫

@BlacKnight

I mean, seriously, unless these are Pern dragons, which can not only teleport but time travel, they're gonna be zombie chow long before that raven even takes wing.

Heck, they'd probably be zombie poop by the time the raven takes wing.

PotomacBob 🚫

@BlacKnight

GRRM has notoriously said that travel in ASoIaF happens

I tried to look up both GRRM and ASoIaF. Couldn't find either one.

Replies: awnlee jawking BlacKnight

awnlee jawking 🚫

@PotomacBob

GRRM is George R R Martin, the author of the books on which the TV drama 'Game of Thrones' is based.

AJ

BlacKnight 🚫

@PotomacBob

And "ASoIaF" is "A Song of Ice and Fire", the name of the full series of which "A Game of Thrones" is the first book.

I'm not sure where you tried to look them up, because I'm pretty sure that Google will give you plenty of information right at the top of the search results for either of those acronyms.

maracorby 🚫

@BlacKnight

GRRM has notoriously said that travel in ASoIaF happens "at the speed of plot"

For what it's worth, I've heard the term attributed to J. Michael Straczynski. (But regardless of whoever said it first, I see a lot of value in repeating it at conventions when challenged by pedantic fans.)

The TV show took it to ridiculous extremes

The first four seasons of the TV show - the ones based on the books - established the speed of travel. Like many elements of that world, they showed us that travelling was difficult and dangerous. It was in the last four seasons that they abandoned any sort of reason or consistency, so that whole armies were basically teleporting around the continent. Part of the reason fans hated the later seasons so much was that they violated the rules that the show itself had established early on.

Replies: StarFleet Carl

StarFleet Carl 🚫

@maracorby

For what it's worth, I've heard the term attributed to J. Michael Straczynski.

The trope name comes from J. Michael Straczynski's partly tongue-in-cheek declaration of the cruising speed of the Excalibur on Crusade in June 2000; he said similar about the Starfuries in Babylon 5.

Dicrostonyx 🚫

@Switch Blayde

Agree. Many people see the process of DTP as gatekeeping, and it is to an extent. But the gatekeeping isn't "you must be this good to publish," it's "you must be willing to work with other professionals to produce something that's actually readable".

When you self-publish you either need to know your own weaknesses -- a very difficult thing for anyone -- and find a way to address them or you're going to risk releasing stories that are riddled with errors. Those might be grammatical, typographical, time errors, internal or external inconsistency issues, bland characters, messed up pacing, or just an overall lack of structure.

DTP books can also have errors, and DTP authors can certainly be divas, but there's also many more stopgaps in the process that are meant to smooth things out.

palamedes 🚫

@tjcase

In one part of a story it takes 5 days to travel each way to a place. And the character has been there 8 times in the last week of the story.

Do they change or define what a week is ?

For centuries the Romans used a period of eight days in a week until 321 CE Emperor Constantine established the seven-day week in the Roman calendar and designated Sunday as the first day of the week.

In history France tried to have a 10 day week, called a décade and was used for nine and a half years from October 1793 to April 1802.

Then there are cultures like the Aztec having 13 days in their week.

Replies: Switch Blayde tjcase

Switch Blayde 🚫

@palamedes

France tried to have a 10 day week

That's because of their generous vacation laws. Give someone 4 weeks vacation in a 7-day week and that's only 28 days vacation. Give them the same 4 weeks vacation is a 10-day week and that's 40 days of vacation.

tjcase 🚫

@palamedes

It was just an example. Have seen it in all related human time frames. And fantasy ones.
The telling of the 'doing' of things trumps the time frame it takes to actually do it in the authors world.

Ernest Bywater 🚫

@tjcase

Having been involved with the construction of a number of buildings I can say how long it takes to build structures depends on a number of factors like: size, design, type of of structure, materials, skill of workers, experience of workers, number of workers, how many hours worked each day, tools and equipment used.

Even back in the 1800s a barn raising could see a huge building constructed within a day by the whole community or take a small crew a few months. I've seen average homes go from foundation to finished in a day, and some take years.

Replies: palamedes

palamedes 🚫

@Ernest Bywater

Even back in the 1800s a barn raising could see a huge building constructed within a day by the whole community or take a small crew a few months.

You can still see this today in any Amish community and everything is done by hand or when raising the walls animal teams.

richardshagrin 🚫

@tjcase

Time needs to successfully take a number of examinations in order to pass most schools.

Replies: irvmull

irvmull 🚫

@richardshagrin

Speaking of schools - there's proof that time is variable. Here's an example everyone should be familiar with:

One hour in English class diagramming sentences passes more slowly than two weeks' vacation in the summer.

Remus2 🚫

@tjcase

I always took it as compression of time. Trying to fill in every little detail is a bit much for any story.
Having been involved in multiple construction projects from bridges to airplanes, I could easily detail every step of the process. However, the average reader would likely bore of that quickly. They are also intelligent enough to figure out there was several points skipped in between.
To present just a log timeline, wouldn't make much of a story.

Grey Wolf 🚫

@tjcase

One of the plusses and minuses of writing a story that is entirely linked to the calendar is that things that take time need to take time. I can't wave away how much time it takes to do something, but I need to pretty much get it at least plausibly right.

Time to construct a house varies widely. It often (but not always) seems to follow the triangle model. As in, there are three elements: fast, cheap, quality. You can have any two. If you want all three, good luck.

While doing other things, I've passed by two fairly large houses under construction. One is nearly done after six months. One started two months after the first and finished a month ago. My working assumption is that a lot more money was spent on the second.

On the other hand, a co-worker is building a house where he lives in Europe. They just put in the basement foundations. The rest of the house will go up either in late 2022 or early 2023. That's routine for basements where he lives. It's been about three years of work with the city planning commission and such to get to this point.

Replies: StarFleet Carl

StarFleet Carl 🚫

@Grey Wolf

You can have any two. If you want all three, good luck.

That's the same thing I used to tell people when they wanted to buy a cheap, low mileage, late model car. Pick two.

In my novels, I'm pushing construction limits a bit, but with the money available to hire enough workers, and ignoring possible weather effects, it's possible for what needs to be done to be completed. I'm also keeping a timeline and calendar as well.

One of the things that CAN happen in home construction is modular homes. NOT mobile homes - modulars are built to actual building codes, they're simply assembled off site and then trucked in once the foundation work is complete.

New home construction right now in our area is about $180 - $185 per square foot. The house that is sitting may have been what's called a spec house - a builder was simply putting it up on speculation that when it was complete, he'd find a buyer for it, and he's been scrambling to find money to finish the job. The other house may have already had a buyer, with everything financed. Politely, this is not quite a FUBAR housing market, because it IS repairable, but it's definitely FU right now.

Replies: Remus2

Remus2 🚫

@StarFleet Carl

but it's definitely FU right now.

It will probably make FUBAR status by the end of the year.

Replies: richardshagrin

richardshagrin 🚫

@Remus2

FUBAR

"Beyond All Recognition"? I suppose it depends on your experience but if you were in the Army or worked for Government almost anywhere, it is pretty easy to recognized FU when you see it.

Paladin_HGWT 🚫

@tjcase

If you would enjoy a story about asymmetrical warfare in 2018 (with SciFi and Fantasy elements), you might enjoy my story: Aztlan Portal.

I maintain copious notes and detailed time-lines for the various factions.

Some have complained that my story is moving too slowly. Perhaps I am, but the big battles that I am foreshadowing take days, weeks, even months to occur.

Troops have to be gathered, as do the food, fuel, and other logistics. Scouting and intelligence gathered, Thdn plans made and refined. Even with trucks and jets it usually takes days, weeks, months to prepare.

Politics, the decision to actually commit forces takes time too.

The US Invasion of Iraq in 2003 was astoundingly fast! Even with much of the logistics stockpiled and some Troops already in Kuwait, it took months of preparation.

I don't intend to bore my readers, the focus is on US Special Operations personnel, and Frontline Mexican Infantry. However, they have limitations based on logistics.

24 chapters so far, 14 days, 1 Battle and a dozen skirmishes. More units are being deployed.

I mostly focus on the action, although at first it is Squad size patrols, or single aircraft flights.

Even big battles are just a bunch of small fights occurring in proximity and time. Just a few guys dying is as tragic as the Omaha Beach scene in Saving Private Ryan, if one is your buddy bleeding out and the high command won't risk a MedEvac helicopter!

To the readers, much is obvious. People may wonder why it seems to take so long. I hope my story gives people a perspective of how actual military operations take place, including limitations.

Look at the Russians and their months long preparations against Ukraine. The USA and other countries also considering deploying forces, and the logistics involved.

I have flown on a "Big Iron Bird" across Continents and Oceans; then had to walk, climb, or crawl with my weapon, rucksack and other gear.

I try to show the difficulty of planning with incomplete (or wrong) information. Politics and scheming that results in poor results in combat.

I could stick to just the big exciting battles, but it would result in people wondering WTF! Victory often goes to the Biggest, or most powerful force.

I am trying to Show circumstances that will influence the upcoming battles.

Some people want to learn about the steps involved in a story. Others just want to get to the "Good Stuff" it doesn't make either type of story or reader better than another. We all have preferences.

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Forum: Author Hangout

The passing of time....

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