Forum: Author Hangout

If you are thinking about writing in 2022

Eddie Davidson 🚫
Updated:

I was talking to a friend of mine on here and they said they weren't a writer. I am not a writer either. I am just someone who tells stories and puts them on the Internet. I learn something new every day.

I think that anyone can write good stories but it is helpful to have some tips at the start.

I wanted to share my observations. I rarely participate on the forums. I am sure some people will disagree with me/tell me I am wrong, but if anyone is thinking about writing but for whatever reason are apprehensive I'd like to share my thoughts.

Here is some basic shit that I wished someone had told me when I started writing.

1. As I told you earlier, just write like you are sitting with your friend shooting the shit and telling them a story, or if from someone else's perspective, write like you are trying to describe what happened the best you can.

2. IDGAF - When you are in doubt about where to go with the plot remember "I do not give a fuck" (what readers may think) and go with your instinct. If they like it, they like it, and if they don't - they don't. You can't please them all so you may as well do what pleases you. That will please somebody.

3. Don't let negative feedback get you down. The Internet is full of trolls and people who love to downvote stories just to downvote it. The first person who gave me feedback said I shouldn't write. If I had taken his advice I wouldn't have continued. The only way to get better is to practice and read other people's stories/apply what you learn from their styles. (don't plagiarize but see how they turn a phrase)

4. Show don't tell. This one might be the most important. It's hard for me to express this in a way that is easy to understand. It took me a while to really get it. You can just TELL the reader what happened (That's fine). Stroke stories are notorious for being quite like a police report. "I stuck (this body part) into that hole. Then she said she was nervous. Then I told her not to be nervous. Then we both cleaned off and showered."

It's better if you can SHOW them what happened by using word pictures. Instead of saying someone was nervous, "When we embraced, she shivered. "Don't be nervous" I whispered into her ear as I stuck a finger up her poop-hole.

I just showed she was nervous and that I didn't want her to be with actions and dialogue.

5. It's not easy to self-edit. You can try all you want but self-editing is difficult because you know what the words are supposed to say, and your mind will sometimes skip the errors. Let someone else read your writing before you post it and give some constructive feedback on story structure, characterization, dialogue, and most of all the errors. I use MS Word to write and then I transfer it to Grammarly, then I put it back in MS Word and read it again (Twice) and make corrections/embellish.

6. Don't be afraid to use real people from your life but obviously change them or make them an amalgam of several people. The authenticity of a character is often because the author is describing what they know or knew. It comes across as genuine.

7. Use the five senses - taste, touch, smell, sight. You are the eyes, ears, nose and even tongue of the reader. If the main character walks into the motel room; "It smelled of mildew and old newspaper. The decorations looked like something out of an old Black and White Television show. They were out of date and worn. The sound of Bing Crosby and static was tinny on an old radio in the corner that nobody was listening to."

You don't have to do that for every scene change but make sure you do a little of it.

8. Thesaurus.com is your best friend, or google "Alternative words for..". If you start using the same word frequently, try and break it up. Fuck is a great example. "Fucking Bitch," I said as we fucked for hours. I was so fucked over. I'd have to get the fuck out of there."

Don't do that (unless you are joking). Try Screw, Bang, Doink, Hump, Sleep-with, and other words. Dick and Cock are another one that authors often over-use. Try to spread them out so that they don't appear in the same sentence or the ones before and after the same sentence.

Use other words like penis, schlong, pecker.

9. The best guitar player is probably a natural but they got there by practice. Just write and to hell with being the best at any of it. Write to enjoy. See the story through the eyes of your characters and tell it. It can be an adventure.

10. Don't be afraid to ask for help. There are some toxic people on the Internet, but not all of us are assholes.

11. A good story has three acts. The first one introduces them. The second act introduces a conflict or problem. It doesn't have to be a bad problem. I'll explain in a second. The third act concludes the story and wraps it up - but shows character growth.

Sometimes I "Free Write" which is to say that I create some characters, a scenario and then just start writing. I have no idea where it is going to go and I enjoy that because I have a lot of freedom as an author to just go wherever.

I have found those stories are the hardest to finish because I never really see an "Ending" and anything I do to conclude it feels tacked on.

The best stories I've done I created the characters, the scenario and then I had the three acts in mind. An act isn't the same thing as a chapter. It's just a framework to organize the story so that there is a basic structure to it. This also doesn't account for little subplots that may be happening in the background.

An example of three acts would be a typical romantic comedy.

1. Boy meets girl

2. Boy loses girl

3. Boy gets girl back

I am not going to explain all the details because that could fill a book. I will just say that in a longer epic you may have a series of these acts. Example: The girl got away in act 3 but he learned something about himself and when the next one comes along he is smarter and more mature. The real love of his life was always there and acts 4,5,6 are about that realization and expressing it to her now that he realizes what she knew all along.

My point to this is that I write an outline that is essentially as simple as those three acts (or a collection of acts) and then write around that. I am always willing to diverge from the acts if I get to that point and it doesn't feel right, but starting with that blueprint helps me feel like the story will have a solid conclusion.

Thank you, that's my Ted Talk.

Replies: INtrinSicliValud Ernest Bywater Switch Blayde Eddie Davidson BlacKnight Ernest Bywater Uther Pendragon redthumb Eddie Davidson CB norefund

INtrinSicliValud 🚫

@Eddie Davidson

All most excellent tips, Eddie.

As a new writer on SOL, the feedback has been interesting here. Everyone who has emailed me feedback has enjoyed my writing and been supportive, but the scoring has not matched. At first, I was comfortable allowing the scores to guide what people are interested in reading, but that does not seem to be the case. As such, instead I looked at download counts and actual comments/emails received. And then, at last, I just decided to write what I want - I ain't getting paid, nor am I under contract.

I wholeheartedly agree with utilizing some version of the three-act structure. Once I discovered I was a "methodological pantser," I feel more comfortable with my chaotic process, but all my stories must now have some kind of outline, even if it's bare-boned. And an ending, even if it is temporary, pending the next segment/Book, etc. My one rejuvenated/revised serialized multiple (like a bazillion)-chapter story is giving me fits because it never ended. Now I must underpin it with a structure and fortify its subplot to add external plot conflict elements. While fun, it is time consuming and I wish I'd done that when I wrote it.

One additional step I find most useful is utilizing the Read Aloud function in Word or similar program to listen to your story. That is my final stage before one last ProWritingAid pass to catch anything that I goofed while editing as I listened.

IV

Replies: Keet

Keet 🚫

@INtrinSicliValud

Everyone who has emailed me feedback has enjoyed my writing and been supportive, but the scoring has not matched.

From what I read here on the forum many authors fixate way too much on votes/scoring. Evaluating the responses you get will probably give a much better idea of how you do. A 1 vote stands as a statistic, a negative troll response is most of the time easily recognizable as such and can be scratched as irrelevant to your writing.

Replies: INtrinSicliValud

INtrinSicliValud 🚫

@Keet

I agree. Count me as one of those score-trackers. Coming from a data-driven world, I have finally realized it was a trap. Although it seems the system is supposed to account for 1-trolls and 10-fanbois, it is impossible to determine from the minuscule number of scoring readers whether something is actually well-received. At this point, after much teeth-gnashing, I am focusing on writing mo' better and generating the stories I enjoy.

Ernest Bywater 🚫

@Eddie Davidson

You may even find it useful to read my free help guide which says many of the same things and a lot more.

Fiction Writing & Style Guide

https://bookapy.com/s/8/fiction-writing-and-style-guide

Switch Blayde 🚫

@Eddie Davidson

Use the five senses - taste, touch, smell, sight.

You missed the 5th — hear.

I'd add:

Enter a scene late and leave early (it basically skips a lot of boring stuff).

Choose your POV wisely. It may be the most important decision you make.

Eddie Davidson 🚫

@Eddie Davidson

One other thing I do and this may not be for everyone but I make a folder for each story.

Then I take the "inactive stories" and move them to a totally separate subfolder so that I can exclude them more easily from searches.

In each story folder I start with 01_storyname.doc, and 02_storyname.doc and chop up the story into chapters snippets that I would post one at a time.

My own personal technique is to convert the file to html once it is ready to post. This way I know it's completed all the editing steps. If I don't I may forget that I still have more editing to do. I know Lajeez accepts word documents but I started converting to HTML years ago and I just continue doing it.

BlacKnight 🚫

@Eddie Davidson

5. It's not easy to self-edit. You can try all you want but self-editing is difficult because you know what the words are supposed to say, and your mind will sometimes skip the errors.

One trick I use... I write in raw HTML in a terminal mode text editor. I read the formatted page in a Web browser. Changing how you look at it, even just where the line breaks are, makes your brain refresh it, and invisible errors will pop out of the woodwork.

8. Thesaurus.com is your best friend, or google "Alternative words for..". If you start using the same word frequently, try and break it up.

Be careful with this. "Synonyms" usually aren't. They'll have different connotations, subtly — or sometimes even grossly — different shades of meaning. If you use words that you don't really know because the thesaurus says they're synonyms, you probably won't actually be saying what you intended to.

Also, "said" is basically invisible. When you're tagging dialogue, 90% of the time you just want to go with "X said". No one will notice that you're repeating "said" a lot. Readers will notice if you're repeating "exclaimed" or "giggled" or "ejaculated".

Replies: Keet

Keet 🚫

@BlacKnight

Also, "said" is basically invisible. When you're tagging dialogue, 90% of the time you just want to go with "X said".

I love the mastery of some authors who manage to convey who 'said' a line without adding the 'X said'. For a conversation between two characters that's probably rather easy but some very good authors manage to do this with multiple characters simply by presenting something that is said in such a way that it's obvious WHO said it.

Replies: awnlee jawking

awnlee jawking 🚫

@Keet

some very good authors manage to do this with multiple characters simply by presenting something that is said in such a way that it's obvious WHO said it.

I think that's the exception rather than the rule.

I've read some really awful examples of multi-person dialogue where, following the 'change of speaker/new paragraph' rule and without dropped quotes or any other indication of a continuation, it becomes impossible to work out the speaker.

Another common example of bad dialogue writing is a paragraph starting with a sentence in which a character performs an action and ends with an unattributed piece of dialogue. By a process of working backwards logically, it becomes apparent the character performing the action was not the speaker.

I wish authors would give consideration to how the reader is supposed to know who's speaking. If it involves the reader having to stop and work backwards, that's poor writing.

AJ

Replies: Keet Switch Blayde Uther Pendragon Switch Blayde

Keet 🚫

@awnlee jawking

I've read some really awful examples of multi-person dialogue where, following the 'change of speaker/new paragraph' rule and without dropped quotes or any other indication of a continuation, it becomes impossible to work out the speaker.

I did say "... some very good authors manage to do this ..." emphasizing that not every author can write that way. A proofreader or editor will point it out if an author tries this but ends up with a dialogue where it's unclear who is speaking.

Replies: awnlee jawking

awnlee jawking 🚫

@Keet

A proofreader or editor will point it out if an author tries this but ends up with a dialogue where it's unclear who is speaking.

You need to qualify that with 'In an ideal world'.

AJ

Replies: Keet

Keet 🚫

@awnlee jawking

You need to qualify that with 'In an ideal world'.

True :)

Switch Blayde 🚫

@awnlee jawking

Another common example of bad dialogue writing is a paragraph starting with a sentence in which a character performs an action and ends with an unattributed piece of dialogue.

That's just flat out wrong. That's why authors must learn the rules. Why just being a good storyteller is not good enough.

Replies: Grey Wolf

Grey Wolf 🚫

@Switch Blayde

As far as I'm concerned, it's the rest of the original quote:

By a process of working backwards logically, it becomes apparent the character performing the action was not the speaker.

If the person performing the action is the speaker, it's fine:

Blaine entered the room and coughed. "Excuse me! Is Amber in here? Has anyone seen her tonight?"

As long as the quote is spoken by Blaine, that's fine. No 'said' needed.

If someone other than Blaine said that, it's flat-out wrong.

Replies: Switch Blayde

Switch Blayde 🚫

@Grey Wolf

If the person performing the action is the speaker, it's fine:

When I brought up confusing pronouns, I was not talking about dialogue.

Replies: awnlee jawking

awnlee jawking 🚫

@Switch Blayde

When I brought up confusing pronouns, I was not talking about dialogue.

I'll paraphrase an example I saw recently.

When Georgia descended the stairs she said, "Blah blah blah..."

Since the speech was an anti-Georgia diatribe, it was obvious the 'she' referred to someone else.

AJ

Replies: Dominions Son Not_a_ID Switch Blayde

Dominions Son 🚫

@awnlee jawking

Since the speech was an anti-Georgia diatribe, it was obvious the 'she' referred to someone else.

I've known people in real life who are self disparaging, so I'm not sure without more context that it's a obvious as you claim.

Not_a_ID 🚫
Updated:

@awnlee jawking

I'll paraphrase an example I saw recently.

When Georgia descended the stairs she said, "Blah blah blah..."

Since the speech was an anti-Georgia diatribe, it was obvious the 'she' referred to someone else.

I'm with DS on this one. I'd read that as Georgia being the speaker absent further context that indicates otherwise, and even then, I'd wonder who "she" was then supposed to be.

The most important thing for a good writer to do is to make sure that they're not making the reader work to understand what's going on. You want the process to be as "transparent" as possible. That example is not transparent on its own if the "she" being reference isn't Georgia.

Switch Blayde 🚫

@awnlee jawking

When Georgia descended the stairs she said, "Blah blah blah..."

Since the speech was an anti-Georgia diatribe, it was obvious the 'she' referred to someone else.

I would definitely have used the name of that character rather than "she."

Replies: awnlee jawking solitude

awnlee jawking 🚫

@Switch Blayde

I would definitely have used the name of that character rather than "she."

Me too.

Sorry for the lack of detail about the diatribe, but too many specifics might have made the author identifiable :-(

AJ

solitude 🚫

@Switch Blayde

Its also more annoying in that it's easy to rework for clarity. For example, "Spotting Georgia descending the stairs, she said..." makes it clear that it's not Georgia that's speaking (and also that the speaker knows that Georgia is coming down).

Replies: Dominions Son

Dominions Son 🚫

@solitude

and also that the speaker knows that Georgia is coming down)

But would that have been the author's intent, as opposed to Georgia coming down unnoticed and overheating something she wasn't supposed to?

Replies: Switch Blayde Not_a_ID

Switch Blayde 🚫

@Dominions Son

But would that have been the author's intent

You'd have to read the scene or maybe even just the paragraph. Little snippets used as examples here are incomplete when figuring out intent. But the intent of the example was clear to me.

Not_a_ID 🚫

@Dominions Son

But would that have been the author's intent, as opposed to Georgia coming down unnoticed and overheating something she wasn't supposed to?

Then you could make it:

"Unaware of Georgia descending the stairs, she said..."

But solitude does raise a valid point that a minor tweak to how it is phrased can make it reasonably evident that there is another actor involved in the sentence besides Georgia so "she" becomes someone who isn't Georgia.

Uther Pendragon 🚫

@awnlee jawking

I wish authors would give consideration to how the reader is supposed to know who's speaking. If it involves the reader having to stop and work backwards, that's poor writing.

I am, naturally, very bad at that. I can hear the characters in my head, and they have different voices. That doesn't help you.
What I try to do when there are two speakers for a while is to label every third speech:
"We could afford a cone apiece, today," Bob said.
"But today celebrates togetherness."
"And Im happy to be together with you."
"Me, too," Jeanette said.
I figure that when you have established that 2 people are alone together, few readers are going t forget that before the attribution comes up. Generally, I write the stry and go back to put in attribution.
When the same speaker has 2 paragraphs, I put in 'He continued.' When there are only 2 speakers, a noun of directaddress can substitute for an attribution.

.

Replies: Dominions Son awnlee jawking

Dominions Son 🚫

@Uther Pendragon

Beyond standard dialog tags and action tags, one technique I have tried (It works well for me, I can't really speak for other readers) especially in conversations involving more than 2 characters is something I call baton passing.

It starts with two characters in conversation then one will make a comment about or address a question to a third character, naming that character in the dialog and that character becomes the next speaker.

awnlee jawking 🚫

@Uther Pendragon

What I try to do when there are two speakers for a while is to label every third speech

I vary somewhat depending on how recognisable the two characters' speech is, but I reckon I average out at about every third speech too.

AJ

Replies: Switch Blayde

Switch Blayde 🚫

@awnlee jawking

I reckon I average out at about every third speech too.

I typically go longer but, like with everything else in writing fiction, it depends…

Switch Blayde 🚫

@awnlee jawking

I wish authors would give consideration to how the reader is supposed to know who's speaking. If it involves the reader having to stop and work backwards, that's poor writing.

It's also true for pronouns. Sometimes it's just too damn hard to figure out if "he" is "Sam" or "Bob" (not specifically talking about dialogue).

Replies: Not_a_ID

Not_a_ID 🚫

@Switch Blayde

It's also true for pronouns. Sometimes it's just too damn hard to figure out if "he" is "Sam" or "Bob" (not specifically talking about dialogue).

For someone I edit material for, that's one of most common things that starts triggering editor markup on my end. When I end up with a sentence where there is more than one person(of the same gender) getting "he/she" (or him/her, etc) applied to them.

Sally and Suzie both turning up as "her" in the same sentence, or group of sentences without a clear signal that we've changed the focus gets flagged. But if Suzy gets tagged as "her" and Sally is "she" I'll likely probably alert that potential confusion could exist, but leave it alone.

Replies: Switch Blayde Grey Wolf richardshagrin

Switch Blayde 🚫

@Not_a_ID

For someone I edit material for, that's one of most common things that starts triggering editor markup on my end.

I find Lee Child does it in his Jack Reacher novels and he has professional editors reviewing it.

Grey Wolf 🚫

@Not_a_ID

I have a bad habit of doing that (hey, it's clear to me!) but I'm getting better at eliminating it. And, my editors are pretty good at catching it, overall. Or, at least, I think they are :)

richardshagrin 🚫

@Not_a_ID

But if Suzy gets tagged as "her" and Sally is "she" I'll likely probably alert that potential confusion could exist, but leave it alone.

Her She is a brand of chocolate.

Replies: Dominions Son

Dominions Son 🚫

@richardshagrin

Her She is a brand of chocolate.

Why would she want to asphyxiate a latte?

Replies: Remus2

Remus2 🚫

@Dominions Son

Why would she want to asphyxiate a latte?

Retaliation for choking on the last latte maybe?

Ernest Bywater 🚫
Updated:

@Eddie Davidson

I write in Libre Office in a6 x 9 inch book format as that makes very good print ready PDF file for a PDF e-book or a Print on Demand book. I then save as HTML, skim out all of the excess format code, add in CSS code, and create an e-pub as well as s html file for lodging at SoL. That way everything comes out displayed as I want it to be seen.

Uther Pendragon 🚫

@Eddie Davidson

8. Thesaurus.com is your best friend,

Definitely not. "There are no synonyms in English." me
"The difference between the right word and the almost-right word is the difference between lightning and a lightning bug." Mark Twain.
If you use a word because you think it means the same as the word that described the action, and you have used the other word too often, then you're not describing the action.

Replies: Eddie Davidson Grey Wolf richardshagrin

Eddie Davidson 🚫

@Uther Pendragon

Definitely not. "There are no synonyms in English."

I bet Mark Twain would agree there is a difference between a dick and a cock.

Grey Wolf 🚫

@Uther Pendragon

That doesn't mean it's not your friend. Sometimes looking through the almost-the-same words gets you the right word when the one you had was almost but not quite right.

As with nearly any writing tool, the point is to not blindly trust it, but to look at the meaning and connotations of both words first and make sure what you're using fits.

richardshagrin 🚫

@Uther Pendragon

Thesaurus

Theo is from the Greek for god.
"Dictionary
Search for a word
-saurus
/ˈsôsəˌlētō/
combining form
forming genus names of reptiles, especially extinct ones.
"stegosaurus"
Definitions from Oxford Languages"

So Theosuarus is a god of extinct reptiles. It isn't spelled with the o between the and sarus, but that is how I pronounce it. The Saurus doesn't sound right to me.

redthumb 🚫

@Eddie Davidson

5. It's not easy to self-edit. You can try all you want but self-editing is difficult because you know what the words are supposed to say, and your mind will sometimes skip the errors.

IF you have a test to speech app, listen to the story. The wrong word might be obvious.

Replies: Dominions Son

Dominions Son 🚫

@redthumb

a test to speech app

Is that something students use to cheat?

Replies: awnlee jawking

awnlee jawking 🚫

@Dominions Son

IF you have a test to speech app, listen to the story. The wrong word might be obvious.

Unintentional irony?

AJ

Replies: Pixy

Pixy 🚫

@awnlee jawking

Unintentional irony?

A bit like a low scoring writer giving out writing advice, perhaps?

Replies: awnlee jawking Eddie Davidson redthumb

awnlee jawking 🚫

@Pixy

A bit like a low scoring writer giving out writing advice, perhaps?

I resemble that remark.

I like to delude myself that I'm low-scoring because I don't pander to the cliches that earn high scores. ;-)

AJ

Replies: INtrinSicliValud

INtrinSicliValud 🚫

@awnlee jawking

I like to delude myself that I'm low-scoring because I don't pander to the cliches that earn high scores. ;-)

Oh, I so feel that. Ha, ha.

IV

Eddie Davidson 🚫
Updated:

@Pixy

You are the toxic in the community I was referring to. I dont think advice should only come from highly rated authors.

Just dealing with negative bs and continuing to write is sufficient. I was just trying to do something constructive to support authors who are a little apprehensive about starting. Your comments are exactly the opposite of that. Is it your intention to actually discourage new authors? That's what you are doing with your "Hahah, I have a 7.0 score! look at all my scores!" nonsense.

No one cares. Sit down.

Here is one more tip:

You are hounding some one for an innocent spelling mistake while providing nothing constructive. He was suggesting text to speech and anyone that reads his comment would know that. It's great advice. I would love to be able to do that and it would certainly help me but I don't have the option.

Think about your priorities in life.

Replies: Pixy Pixy joyR

Pixy 🚫

@Eddie Davidson

labelling people who disagree with you as toxic, is not a good path to take for reasoned debate.

Okay, I shall sit down, if you take a step back.

Think about it rationally. You have two writers in front of you, one is a writer that is universally well known, respected and sells a stupidly large amount of books. The other is someone that no-one has ever heard of, struggles to get published and when they do get published, the books don't sell and if reviewed, don't come out it very well. Both writers have brought out a book on how to write, you can only pick one, which writer are you going to choose?

Or to put it another way, you have two driving instructors in front of you. One is a racing champion with crashes and trophies to their name, the other is a boy racer, with crashes and points to their name, which one are you going to take driving advice from?

Do you see the point I am making, or do you still think (wrongly) that it was a personal attack against you?

I have indeed thought about my priorities in life, and an old saying also comes to mind that over the years, I have found to be remarkably true to form. "Those that can, do. Those that can't teach it."

Pixy 🚫

@Eddie Davidson

You are hounding some one for an innocent spelling mistake while providing nothing constructive. He was suggesting text to speech and anyone that reads his comment would know that.

Could you please show me (with the direct quote(s) if possible) where I was 'hounding' the poster Redthumb? I've looked and the only post that I have made on this thread other than my last, (in direct reply to you), was a reply to Awnlee. unless, of course, that statement wasn't aimed at me and it just looks that way because of the way it was worded...

joyR 🚫

@Eddie Davidson

I dont think

I was just trying

When exercising your right to express an opinion, never forget that everyone else has to right to disagree with you.

Resisting the urge to throw your toys from your pram will go a long way to make up for describing another contributor as 'toxic'.

redthumb 🚫

@Pixy

No, it WAS intentional.

Replies: awnlee jawking

awnlee jawking 🚫

@redthumb

No, it WAS intentional.

In that case it was too subtle for most here, including me. Apologies for getting it wrong.

AJ

Replies: joyR

joyR 🚫

@awnlee jawking

She was just trying to expresso herself and all they could do was mocha.

Replies: Pixy

Pixy 🚫

@joyR

You really ground that one out.

Replies: joyR

joyR 🚫

@Pixy

You really ground that one out.

Too much coffee will do that to anyone, sooner or latte...

:)

Replies: Dominions Son Keet

Dominions Son 🚫

@joyR

Too much coffee will do that to anyone, sooner or latte...

If you drink too much coffee, you will have to make a pot of tea.

Replies: Remus2

Remus2 🚫

@Dominions Son

drink too much coffee

No such animal exist. My eldest sister tells me "you need an I.V. drip for coffee, it would be more efficient."

Replies: Keet Dominions Son palamedes

Keet 🚫

@Remus2

My eldest sister tells me "you need an I.V. drip for coffee, it would be more efficient."

I've had people telling me the same :D

Replies: Remus2

Remus2 🚫

@Keet

The apocalypse begins when the coffee runs dry.

Replies: awnlee jawking

awnlee jawking 🚫

@Remus2

The apocalypse begins when the coffee runs dry.

Mission Objectives for the Star Guardian crew.

1) Decent Coffee
2) Protect the galaxy from bad guys.

AJ

Replies: joyR

joyR 🚫

@awnlee jawking

Mission Objectives for the Star Guardian crew.

1) Decent Coffee

Black coffee only because in space nobody has heard of cream...

Replies: awnlee jawking

awnlee jawking 🚫

@joyR

Black coffee only because in space nobody has heard of cream...

You mean astronautesses don't cream their panties at the mention of my name?

AJ

Dominions Son 🚫

@Remus2

No such animal exist.

There is an LD50* for caffeine, I've looked it up.

Of course if you do the math on the caffeine LD50 to convert to a volume of coffee, it comes to somewhere between 5 to 8 gallons for a person of average weight, and at the rate the human body metabolizes caffeine, you'd have to drink that in under 8 hours.

*Lethal dose 50%, the dose at which it will kill 50% of the people receiving that dose, generally expressed in mg/kg of body weight.

Replies: Keet Not_a_ID Remus2

Keet 🚫

@Dominions Son

Of course if you do the math on the caffeine LD50 to convert to a volume of coffee, it comes to somewhere between 5 to 8 gallons for a person of average weight, and at the rate the human body metabolizes caffeine, you'd have to drink that in under 8 hours.

There's something wrong with that math. For me 0% caffeine is 100% lethal :D

Not_a_ID 🚫

@Dominions Son

According to:
https://www.compoundchem.com/2014/07/27/lethaldoses/

LD50 suggests that 6 liters of water will kill most people.

118 240 mL cups of coffee could kill you with the caffeine. Which suggests the water in your coffee would kill you before the caffeine could. (28.3 liters of coffee consumed, or about 7.5 gallons, within the range you claimed)

Replies: awnlee jawking Dominions Son

awnlee jawking 🚫

@Not_a_ID

Which suggests the water in your coffee would kill you before the caffeine could.

Vague recollections make me wonder whether the caffeine and water might counteract each other to some extent, making the LD50 significantly higher than water or caffeine in isolation.

AJ

Replies: Dominions Son joyR

Dominions Son 🚫

@awnlee jawking

Caffeine is supposed to be a diuretic (makes you shed water through your urinary tract). However, that much is such a short time would likely damage your kidneys.

Replies: awnlee jawking

awnlee jawking 🚫

@Dominions Son

Caffeine is supposed to be a diuretic (makes you shed water through your urinary tract). However, that much is such a short time would likely damage your kidneys.

IIRC, the danger of drinking too much water is that upsets the electrolytic balance, causing hyponatraemia.

I agree caffeine is supposed to be a diuretic but doctors used to instruct parents of recovering children to drink flat coca-cola to rehydrate them. I guess all the crap that's in coca-cola helps the electrolytic balance despite the diuretic effect.

AJ

Replies: Remus2

Remus2 🚫
Updated:

@awnlee jawking

IIRC, the danger of drinking too much water is that upsets the electrolytic balance, causing hyponatraemia.

More specifically sodium below 120 mEq/L is a severe case of that.

https://open.oregonstate.education/aandp/chapter/26-3-electrolyte-balance/

hyponatremia is only related to low sodium levels and can happen independent of other electrolytes.

joyR 🚫

@awnlee jawking

Vague recollections make me wonder whether the caffeine and water might counteract each other to some extent, making the LD50 significantly higher than water or caffeine in isolation.

A guy actually died after falling into a vat of coffee, but he didn't suffer, it was instant...

:)

Dominions Son 🚫

@Not_a_ID

I never claimed it was practical to consume that much coffee.

Remus2 🚫
Updated:

@Dominions Son

You'd have to mainline a caffeine coctail to get an LD level of caffiene. American sold coffee doesn't have that potential.
ETA: I don't think the general public is aware of that.
https://www.ecfr.gov/current/title-21/chapter-I/subchapter-B/part-182/subpart-B/section-182.1180
There are coffees sold in other parts of the world that far exceed those limits.

palamedes 🚫

@Remus2

need an I.V. drip for coffee, it would be more efficient."

AGREE

Keet 🚫

@joyR

Too much coffee will do that to anyone, sooner or latte...

:)

I never had that problem and I drink a lot of coffee, really, really a lot. Strong, hot, and plain black.

Eddie Davidson 🚫

@Eddie Davidson

I would add don't turn on voting until chapter 7, or when the story ends (if it ends sooner)

Give people time to form an informed opinion before voting.

Replies: Pixy

Pixy 🚫

@Eddie Davidson

n

I would add don't turn on voting until chapter 7, or when the story ends (if it ends sooner)

Everyone feel free to correct me, but aren't you able to change your vote? So if you decided that after the story was finished, your original score was too high/low, it can be changed? If that is indeed the case, this is why I consider bad advice to be infinitely worse than no advice.

Replies: JoeBobMack

JoeBobMack 🚫

@Pixy

Everyone feel free to correct me, but aren't you able to change your vote?

Seems to me that the fact that a reader can change their vote could be unrelated to whether it is a good strategy for authors to wait until several chapters are posted to turn on voting. Factors that could favor waiting to turn on voting would include:

*One-bombers might not keep coming back to later chapters in an attempt to deliver their little gift.

*Readers who voted early might be less motivated to increase their vote if they find they like the work better than they would be to lower their vote if it disappoints them later (negativity bias).

*Since voting is only available at the end of the last posted chapter, those who bail early would have to go to the end to vote and might skip the effort.

*Especially for books with a slow build, turning on voting later lets only those who make it that far vote. And, given the delay as chapters post versus the ability to read straight through for later voters, that might also give a more accurate picture to future readers who might like the book.

So, delaying voting might, or might not, be a good strategy, but the strategic decision doesn't seem to be eliminated by whether readers can change their vote.

Replies: Eddie Davidson Pixy Pixy Pixy Pixy

Eddie Davidson 🚫

@JoeBobMack

Seems to me that the fact that a reader can change their vote could be unrelated to whether it is a good strategy for authors to wait until several chapters are posted to turn on voting.

100%

It's not likely someone who read the first chapter and downvoted to a 1 is going to come back and read more chapters because they already think the story is drek.

It's better to give them some time. I am in no hurry to get votes. I think it could be a reasonable metric if enough people did it but also considering the percentage of votes compared to the number of downloads, its a small group of people who actually take the time.

What I DO is turn on commenting right away. It's off by default but I enjoy constructive feedback.

I enjoy writing. I do not enjoy toxic people who worry about scores, turn their nose up at scores, and then pile on to a thread mocking someone for a single spelling error.

I should have known I'd get at least one in a thread specifically intended to bring hope to new authors that we weren't all like that.

Not all feedback has to be positive. I think constructive though offers suggestions that helps a person grow as an author. My feedback is always intended to be seen as constructive. I think the Internet can be a difficult place to do that because without tone of voice it's hard to express it in a forum.

The best feedback anyone gave me was one day this guy sent me this REALLY nasty email about how the characters in my story would never do this (one thing) which I believe was getting all tatted up.

He was livid.

At first, I was going to hit delete and move on but then I wrote him a really nice email thanking him. I am glad I did.

The reason I thanked him is he was PISSED because these characters who seem real to him acted contrary to his nature. Characters I created.

It's like if Captain Kirk and Mr. Spock became butt buddies. That would piss off a lot of people who would say well that's not how they were written.

It means my story resonated with him enough to get pissed off about it. I think that's the best compliment I ever got for writing (I think). He even wrote a few fan fiction chapters for a little while before dropping off the earth and I never heard from again.

The feedback shouldn't always be like that - but It was great because it really did make me think that my story hit home with somebody and made them feel some visceral emotion which is all that I could hope for really.

Replies: Pixy

Pixy 🚫

@Eddie Davidson

I enjoy writing. I do not enjoy toxic people who worry about scores, turn their nose up at scores, and then pile on to a thread mocking someone for a single spelling error.

I'm still waiting for the quote of where I mocked Redthumb. I know it's never going to come, because it never existed outside of your consciousness, but in the mean-time, can you stop acting as though it existed.

As to the other individual on that thread, AJ is well known amongst the longer posting members for their sense of humour that some forum visitors might, in their naivety, think as being caustic, where the reality is, that it's simply a bit of friendly leg-pulling with no harm meant. If you insist on repeatedly taking offence to that, that's your prerogative, but kindly stop seeing hate where hate does not exist, because, ironically, you are indulging in the very thing that you claim to despise...

Replies: awnlee jawking

awnlee jawking 🚫

@Pixy

mocking someone for a single spelling error

I was 95% certain that Redthumb made a 'fat finger' error. But it also occurred to me that they made the error deliberately to emphasise the point they were making. Unless Redthumb clarifies, I guess we'll never know for sure.

AJ

Pixy 🚫

@JoeBobMack

*One-bombers might not keep coming back to later chapters in an attempt to deliver their little gift.

You can only vote once on a story, any subsequent vote replaces the original, so even if they change their one to a one, it's still going to register as one vote of one. If the troll hates your work, they're going to vote regardless of whether you wait to turn on voting or not. Hence why I was floating the suggestion that it was a pointless technique to use. I am tempted to say that it could even be a detrimental technique as most readers will look at the current score to see if the story is worth reading. If the writer is not known to the reader, they might skip the story as no votes are registered.

I will skip a story with no ability to vote, because I automatically think if voting isn't allowed, then it must be a pretty dire piece of writing and the writer doesn't want people to know that, so removes the ability for readers to warn off other readers....

Replies: awnlee jawking JoeBobMack

awnlee jawking 🚫

@Pixy

If the troll hates your work, they're going to vote regardless of whether you wait to turn on voting or not. Hence why I was floating the suggestion that it was a pointless technique to use.

I've used it occasionally when the story has a lot of world and character building at the start, and it takes a while before the principal conflicts emerge. If I were better at writing story descriptions, readers wouldn't need to sample the story to set their expectations of where it's going.

AJ

Replies: Switch Blayde

Switch Blayde 🚫

@awnlee jawking

I've used it occasionally when the story has a lot of world and character building at the start, and it takes a while before the principal conflicts emerge.

That's why many readers skip prologues. That stuff is usually dumped in a prologue. I'm not saying to put it in a prologue. I'm saying it needs to be as interesting as the rest of the novel. Or you need to get right into the story and provide that info later (again, in an interesting way).

Ignoring scoring systems, think of a potential buyer reading the beginning of the novel in a bookstore or reading the sample provided online. If it's not interesting to them, the novel goes back on the shelf and they move to another novel. Gaming the scoring system isn't the solution (unless all you're interested in is the highest score you can get).

No one ever said writing good fiction is easy.

JoeBobMack 🚫

@Pixy

If the troll hates your work, they're going to vote regardless of whether you wait to turn on voting or not.

Really? I'm thinking a person just looking to drop a one-bomb might not come back to a story days or weeks later when multiple chapters are up. And that might be especially true if regular readers have already voted and set a good mark. No chance for the one-bomb to have its desired effect.

But, this is all speculation without actual data, so authors have to go on their best guesses as to reader behavior, including trolls just looking to one-bomb.

Pixy 🚫

@JoeBobMack

*Since voting is only available at the end of the last posted chapter, those who bail early would have to go to the end to vote and might skip the effort.

The danger of that, is you're only ever going to attract one element of the readership- The die hard fans. However, you run the risk of surrounding yourself with sycophants who, ironically, will not help you grow and improve as a writer. If you continue to write to a small minority of individuals, then you run the risk of becoming a worse writer.

Constructive criticism is very important, if you rig things to avoid it, well...

Replies: JoeBobMack

JoeBobMack 🚫
Updated:

@Pixy

Constructive criticism is very important, if you rig things to avoid it, well...

Agreed. That point you quoted was more aimed at getting higher scores from reasonable readers than at avoiding one bombers.

But, does that rig against "constructive criticism"? In the first place, mere votes aren't really constructive criticism. They're just votes, subject to interpretation within the context of SOL's scoring mechanism. To me, constructive criticism would be more likely to occur in the format of

* "I really like your story, but ____ really bothered me."

or

* "Your story would be better if..."

And, even there, if the "if" boils down to "You'd written a different story," then that's not helpful.

I really liked what Eddie said about how he found positivity in a readers angry email - no anger if no interest!

Pixy 🚫

@JoeBobMack

Especially for books with a slow build, turning on voting later lets only those who make it that far vote. And,

Then you are deliberately introducing bias in the voting.

Replies: JoeBobMack

JoeBobMack 🚫

@Pixy

Then you are deliberately introducing bias in the voting.

That's certainly one way to look at it. Or, could see it as just making sure voting was only done by those who gave the book a fair shot. Even so, I suspect, on SOL, on Amazon, and pretty much everywhere, many authors seek to sway things in ways to get good scores (and sales). That can be by writing a good description or using tags appropriately so readers get what they are expecting and don't get unwanted surprises. Making sure that only readers who were interested enough to read through several chapters is one way to do that, and maybe one that, as a reader, I would encourage. I see lots of stories with good scores that I'd never read -- just not my thing. I've started stories with good scores that I quit for the same reasons - not a bad story, and maybe well written, but not the story I wanted to read. So, I'd rather stories be voted on by people who like that kind of story. More helpful to me.

Pixy 🚫

@JoeBobMack

So, delaying voting might, or might not, be a good strategy, but the strategic decision doesn't seem to be eliminated by whether readers can change their vote.

The important words in the above quote are MIGHT and SEEM. These aren't factual qualifiers but the posters opinion, which might, or might not, be correct, regardless, they can only be taken at face value and should not be the basis for a writing strategy.

And just to be clear, this post is not a personal attack against JoeBobMack, nor should it be construed as one.

Replies: JoeBobMack

JoeBobMack 🚫

@Pixy

The important words in the above quote are MIGHT and SEEM. These aren't factual qualifiers but the posters opinion, which might, or might not, be correct, regardless, they can only be taken at face value and should not be the basis for a writing strategy.

Yes, we have no data, so it's all a judgment call. I didn't read Eddie's original statement on this as a writing strategy as much as a motivational strategy - a way to keep possible early negative votes that didn't really reflect the story (one-bombers, for instance ) from unduly affecting one's motivation to write.

And just to be clear, this post is not a personal attack against JoeBobMack, nor should it be construed as one.

None taken. Love to talk about ideas, and I especially enjoy when people can disagree with what I say and tell me why. It's an opportunity to learn and to refine either my ideas or the way I express them.

CB 🚫

@Eddie Davidson

I'm thinking about writing in 2022. Is there anything that can be done to help me?

Replies: Dominions Son Switch Blayde awnlee jawking Eddie Davidson shaddoth1

Dominions Son 🚫

@CB

I'm thinking about writing in 2022. Is there anything that can be done to help me?

https://atelepsych.com/ :)

Switch Blayde 🚫

@CB

I'm thinking about writing in 2022. Is there anything that can be done to help me?

Grow thick skin.

Replies: Pixy richardshagrin

Pixy 🚫

@Switch Blayde

Grow thick skin.

This.

richardshagrin 🚫

@Switch Blayde

Is there anything that can be done to help me?

Visit a psychiatrist. Or buy lots of paper, pencils or pens, a typewriter or a reasonably good computer and just write. Robert Anson Heinlein said you need to write a million words before the good stuff flows. I looked it up and maybe he didn't say it. Maybe Ray Bradbury or Jerry Pornelle, or somebody else. Anyhow it takes time and effort. If you want to work that hard for relatively little money or other rewards, good luck. You probably will need it.

Replies: CB JoeBobMack

CB 🚫

@richardshagrin

I just added up what I've published here and I'm only at half that amount. That apparently explains the lack of groupies on my doorstep.

Replies: JoeBobMack awnlee jawking

JoeBobMack 🚫
Updated:

@CB

That apparently explains the lack of groupies on my doorstep.

Groupies? There are groupies? (Rushes off to write more!)

Replies: Pixy

Pixy 🚫

@JoeBobMack

Groupies? There are groupies? (Rushes off to write more!)

You are aware that one of the groupies is AJ....?

Replies: awnlee jawking JoeBobMack

awnlee jawking 🚫

@Pixy

You are aware that one of the groupies is AJ....?

I'm not easy ...

My groupieness has to be earned ;-)

AJ

Replies: JoeBobMack

JoeBobMack 🚫

@awnlee jawking

Nothing easy is worth doing.

Um...

Let me think about this...

JoeBobMack 🚫

@Pixy

;)

awnlee jawking 🚫

@CB

I just added up what I've published here and I'm only at half that amount.

Was your original question tongue-in-cheek?

AJ

JoeBobMack 🚫

@richardshagrin

If you want to work that hard for relatively little money or other rewards, good luck.

Unless the rewards you seek are intrinsic. A chance to exercise your creativity. The satisfaction of developing interesting characters, putting them in challenging situations, then working out a resolution. The pride of getting better or the joy of learning something new. In general, people who work for intrinsic rewards -- rewards that aren't dependent on other people to give them to you -- are happier and improve more at what they are attempting. Unfortunately - extrinsic rewards (scores, downloads, comments, messages, sales) tends to crowd out intrinsic motivation. Hence why you'll see some writers who have managed to keep at it commenting that they've had to learn to ignore those extrinsic things.

Replies: Kajakie Karr

Kajakie Karr 🚫
Updated:

@JoeBobMack

Great observations. And I very much agree with the points in the original post.

Now, I hope it would be okay for someone new to this writing lark - therefore, lacking a sufficiently high score - to mention a couple of things that have been useful.

I found writing character biographies very useful. It doesn't have to be very extensive (unless perhaps it's a main character). Just a couple of paragraphs saying who they are, what their relationships are. And a photograph - nick a photograph off the internet. Give your characters a face. It really makes them come to life when you have a face to go with the idea.

awnlee jawking 🚫

@CB

I'm thinking about writing in 2022. Is there anything that can be done to help me?

Perhaps you'd be better off asking the question after the fact. Write something then enlist the services of one or more of SOL's volunteer editors and ask what you could have done better.

AJ

Eddie Davidson 🚫
Updated:

@CB

I'm thinking about writing in 2022. Is there anything that can be done to help me?

You've written a coherent sentence on this forum. That proves you have the entry level skills to start writing. Just like riding a bike or playing a guitar the only way to do it is to start.

If those first couple of tips I put in the original post of this thread do not resonate with you, I do have another suggestion.

I would say don't get ambitious for your first story. Think of a situation in someone's life that is the most INTERESTING thing that ever happened to them. Make sure it's something you are interested in talking about.

Then write that time in their life. It may be good to plan to do just 1-3 chapters but be prepared in case you fall in love with the characters to do more.

The first chapter you could start with might just be a series of declarative sentences. Example:

Bob had a crush on his babysitter. Bob's babysitter had no idea. His Babysitter is a mexican lady twice his age named Isabel. Isabel has big boobs.

Bob liked to watch her clean the house and at night he jerked off to fantasies of her cleaning the house in the nude.

One day, he was jerking off in the afternoon while Isabel was cleaning. She opened the door and caught him. "Oh Senor'Bob! I am so sorry!" but Isabel didn't leave immediately. It gave Bob a thrill.

Okay, this is a very simple story straight out of any porn producers mind and that's okay because the first story you write doesn't have to be clever or unique. It just has to get your feet wet.

Take each sentence in a story you wrote in a similar fashion and elaborate on it. Each of those sentences could easily be a paragraph of 3-5 sentences or they could be one sentence. That's up to you.

If you are telling the story from Bob's perspective or from the perspective of a narrator who is neither Bob or Isabel then just be consistent on who is telling the story.

Do your best to transform those sentences into dialogue and actions that say the same thing using those "Show Don't Tell" principles I included above.

If you want to send me an email on here through the messaging system with your first draft I'm happy to provide constructive feedback. I don't have a lot of experience with stories about fantasy/superhero/sci-fi settings but I'll do my best to give you some tips anyway if thats what you are into..

I used to think that I could not write/should not write and then I got tired of waiting for people to write stories that I like to read. I started to write the same kind of stories and it's a thrill.

shaddoth1 🚫

@CB

turn off the tv and radio. and phone.
then write and keep writing. create your characters and your world and enjoy.
worry about the grammar and spelling later.
and keep writing.

remember that the person you are writing for is you.

norefund 🚫

@Eddie Davidson

There is a feature is some forum/discussion software which allows users to add a note against other users, visible only to them. I mostly use it to give people something I call a t**t score. Very useful I find. Saves a lot of time as you can just avoid interacting with them in the future ... can we have something like this on SO?

Thanks for the advise Eddie. I found it insightful.

Replies: Eddie Davidson

Eddie Davidson 🚫
Updated:

@norefund

call a t**t score.

I love it. The problem is many people on here have multiple pseudonyms and most likely alt-troll accounts they use to one-bomb other author's stories as some sort of snot-nosed infused retribution.

The t**t who called me low-scoring author, (Which my scores are about the same as his by the way), doesn't realize not only do I take the scores with a grain of salt, but I also realize that if most of my votes are 9-10, but a few of them are 1 it means that my story resonates with people who looked at the story codes ahead of time, and people like him voted it down.

I really don't care that the average works out to 6.9 or 7 because the distribution of votes proves that the story is actually appealing to who it is supposed to please.

Even if statistically he can muster an army of alt-accounts and get my score down to under 6.0, the number of 10s on the story are still a very good indicator that the 1s are just trollish little gnats with nothing better to do than downvote a 52 chapter story with a start, middle, end, etc and say "You call this a story?"

I mostly avoid this forum due to the toxicity of a few people like him anyway. I don't know why I thought it would be any different this time around.

He also doesn't realize that I wasn't trying to say "Hey, I am a high scoring author. I know it all. Learn from the best!"

I was actually just trying to encourage other authors because I am coming from a place of "I am still learning too! but here is what I have learned. This might be useful to you. This is why I think if you are thinking about writing, you should just do it. If I can, you can."

Replies: norefund

norefund 🚫
Updated:

@Eddie Davidson

The thing about internet feedback is - I think - you have to take it as aggregate. Votes, written feedback, what-have-you, you still have to apply a healthy dollop of judgment. It almost doesn't matter what it is. It neither tells you if people like your work or if the work is any good. Most readers don't vote or comment. It's an indication. Something you need to look at along with other indicators.

I know of many really well written stories that have a low score. I can also find badly written, rambling amateurish garbage that is being praised to the sky. It certainly dispels any notion I might have harboured about the wisdom of the crowd.

Real feedback can only come from people whose taste and opinion you actually personally have some sense of and respect.

Anyway, all I wanted to add was that I think leaving voting off for the first few chapters is a very good idea.

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Forum: Author Hangout

If you are thinking about writing in 2022

WARNING! ADULT CONTENT...