Forum: Author Hangout

s.m. Stirling's change series

"The Emberverse Books in Order: How to read S. M. Stirling's series?

What if the laws of physics changed suddenly?

What is The Emberverse about?

Written by Canadian-American science fiction and fantasy author S. M. Stirling, The Emberverse is a series of post-apocalyptic alternate history novels that tells stories set after a mysterious worldwide event called "The Change" that occurs at 6:15 pm Pacific Standard Time, March 17, 1998.

The Change affects the course of history and the laws of physics. As a result, all the electricity, firearms, explosives, internal combustion engines, steam power and most forms of high-energy-density technology on Earth no longer work. It's a new world and surviving it will be a challenge."

There are 15 novels and an anthology "The Change: Tales of Downfall and Rebirth – An anthology collection of short stories set 50 years after the Change written by S.M. Stirling, Harry Turtledove, Walter Jon Williams, John Birmingham, John Barnes, Jane Lindskold, and more…"

Not all books by SM Sterling set in the change universe are about life after "no technology". There were a few set when a small island that retains technology is moved to another world. I will look to see if I can find that part of the series as well. Tomorrow is my 77th birthday. I have read a lot of SF and can't remember a lot of details, like titles.

I am back with the information: "The Island in the Sea of Time book series by S.M. Stirling includes books Island in the Sea of Time, Against the Tide of Years, and On the Oceans of Eternity." Nantucket is sent to a world in the Bronze Age.

Happy birthday you old fart. 23 more years to get your telegram from the Queen.

Stirling starts off with 'Alien Spacebats' interfering with the local laws of physics, but gradually adds in old gods and demons making their presence felt, riding the minds of their followers and influencing the mundane world. Much of the first book is about the Great Dieing and the small groups that adapt and survive "When the going gets weird, the weird get going".

There was a book in the 80s about magic coming back and a virgin boy befriending a wounded unicorn. Ariel, by Stephen Boyett IIRC.

Another from the same period had magic coming back in modern England, with the fae and wild hunt returning through old fairy rings. As the number of incursions grow Whitehall D notices the truth, but also announces that people living in rural areas can obtain firearms certificates for self defence.
People in smaller villages take to sleeping together in the village pub and horseshoes are hastily nailed over every door as isolated families are wiped out overnight. Unfortunately I can't recall the title or author.

@Lumpy
That's a hole in my SF reading - I'll check it out.

@richardshagrin
Thanks for the information on the series.

Yes, a slow increase, with effects a combination of concentration of mana and human imagination and intention - magic is very much about intentions in this universe. Thus the main character can nullify the action of firearms in his vicinity very early because that is what he envisions and intends in a moment of crisis. Other effects, such as the failure of internal combustion engines or electrical appliance will await some combination of intentionality and concentration of mana. The underlying intentionality of such failure ultimately manifests regardless of human imagination or intention because it is 'baked in' to the change by one of the competing gods creating the change. This is also why it is only human control over explosions and electricity that is affected - not, for example, nerve impulses.

Another possible option for computing is photonics. That's a bit more far fetched to get going from a low level (and I'm not exactly knowledgeable how far the field was at the proposed starting time), but where it's heading right now is pure magic. Like, this (okay, that involves low power electronics too, but magic should be usable for something, no?).

Don't discount purely mechanical computation systems too. Muscle power is fine.

Yup, I've thought about these. It's a fight between two gods occurring sometime in the near future. Power seeks to re-shape the world so humans give priority to the value of power over family and caring for others. He does this by forcing magical slavery as a component of all sexual relations. Fate is caught off guard, but responds by sending her agent back to 1973 to pull magic back slowly, shape it to better support human wellbeing, and kill power's agents whenever they appear. She also adds an element of choice to the sexual slavery created by Power. The stories are about how all of this works out, and especially how the Agent and those who join him shape magic, both the sexual slavery component and otherwise, through their (often unconscious) values, imaginations, and intentions.

Magic will enter the world slowly at first, although the final full immersion may have elements of the apocalyptic scenarios mentioned here. Alternatives to current technology that don't require controlled explosions (such as what occurs in the cylinder of an internal combustion engine or the chamber of a firearm) or electricity are all viable. So, things can burn, but not explode. (And, yes, I know that's fuzzy boundary. I think it will work, but, that remains to be seen.)

Absolutely correct unless Fate's Team can pull enough magic back so that the world ultimately gets an opportunity to mostly adapt prior to history rejoining the original timeline at the point of full immersion. I suspect there will still be apocalyptic elements for that moment, likely concentrated in the major urban areas.

Yes, yes! As for the gradual change - it's magic tied to human imagination and intentionality. Right now I'm expecting specific concentrated failures caused by those who've entered the magical world. The best early example would be the failure of firearms during early battles with Power's agents. Eventually however, as pockets of mana accumulate around magic users, the full effect of the fundamental rules of magic will take effect in those areas of concentrated magic use. A little bit like Ilona Andrews Kate Daniels series except that, once magic takes hold, it doesn't let go.

If steam still works then oil fired steam engines would allow existing trolley car and train networks to be converted over. In 1973 much of the world's shipping would have been steam powered.

Terry Pratchett had The Clacks communication system in his Discworld novels. Line of sight semaphore towers, which were replaced by the electrical telegraph IRL:
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Optical_telegraph
In a crash program as a matter of national survival, a similar system could be established using modern optical systems to extend range.
The electric typewriter would fail and the manual typewriter would return.
Steam tractors would also return.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steam_tractor
I doubt that broad acre mono culture food production would continue, heavy steam tractors would not be as efficient as IC engined machines.

Water. Electric mains water pumps would cease to function. Electric sluice gates on dams ditto. Without a crash conversion to steam or hydraulic powered pumps Los Angeles, Hollywood & Las Vegas would die of thirst before they starved to death (NTTIAWWT).
Coal fired or oil fired steam central heating would make a rapid come back in NYC and similar places.
Skyscrapers would be abandoned without electricity to run elevators and cooling.
Cooking would go back to propane. Assuming welding still works to produce pressure vessels.

Good stuff. Thanks.

If steam still works then oil fired steam engines would allow existing trolley car and train networks to be converted over.

Yup. Thought of this.

In 1973 much of the world's shipping would have been steam powered.

But not this! Thanks!

Yup - advanced technology around steam power is one thing I've thought of. I'm not strong on how advanced it could get, but maybe I won't have to go there in the period I'm covering.

Ahh, yes, wind up!

If it's the presence of mana causing the tech to fail, then I'd expect a rash of Warlock's Wheels to be used to contain or stave off the disruption.

From the OP:

And, magic won't be a sufficient substitute, either for power or for control systems, so no "steampunk".

From the description at your link, the warlock's wheel could be used as a source of mechanical power and a substitute for IC engines, so it violates the above stipulation from the OP.

it violates the above stipulation from the OP.

Only under some assumptions. I would say that use of enchantment to drive machinery would initially work, but quite quickly fail as the mana is consumed from the local area, requiring a lengthy wait for more mana to drain into the area thus conforming to the OP stipulation you note. This opens up many plot opportunities for clever characters to take advantage of the ebb and flow of mana.

but quite quickly fail as the mana is consumed from the local area

Only if you assume a finite mana pool. And in my opinion that wouldn't fit other aspects specified by the OP.

Only if you assume a finite mana pool

From the use of 'slowly' above, I had envisaged mana spreading like a very viscous fluid, which would allow local pockets of 'use it all up', but ensure that nowhere is devoid of mana for long, once the mana wave has arrived.

My idea of the how of electricity/explosion inhibition and magic use spreading, is that there is a leak from another universe which is mana-driven, and the presence of mana changes quantum interaction such that the conduction continuum becomes somewhat quantised (so electrons can no longer flow as freely), and the interaction of consciousness with quantum phenomena is enhanced (enabling magic to work). This leak could maybe have been caused by some wizard in the other universe attempting to access material in our universe for its unique (as seen from their universe) properties.

From the use of 'slowly' above, I had envisaged mana spreading like a very viscous fluid, which would allow local pockets of 'use it all up', but ensure that nowhere is devoid of mana for long, once the mana wave has arrived.

The image I get is like water or a gas.

It might be thin/shallow, meaning not much can be done with it and the side effects would be weak, but more would flow in to fill voids almost as quickly as it could be used.

Again, for me, even localized exhaustibility is not consistent with the technology blocking effect.

IIRC, decades ago in Analog there was a story about time waves rolling through, disrupting landscapes and technology. That airport you are on final approach to? It just became virgin forest. People and things moved out of their own time. To have any chance of staying together families had to stay in the same location, have grab bags and cling to each other as the waves moved through.

I would say that use of enchantment to drive machinery would initially work, but quite quickly fail as the mana is consumed from the local area, requiring a lengthy wait for more mana to drain into the area thus conforming to the OP stipulation you note. This opens up many plot opportunities for clever characters to take advantage of the ebb and flow of mana.

So, this isn't what I was thinking about when I started this thread, it's still really helpful as it forces me to consider what expectations readers will bring to the story based on other magical systems.

Right now, I'm working on a system where "mana" is the raw magical power that is, as suggested above, kind of a fluid that accumulates in an area over time. "Magic" is the application of mana, channeled through human intention and intellect to produce results in the world.

Whether through a limit in the available supply of "mana" or due to the requirement for the application of human imagination and intent, sustained magical effects in, for example, a "magic driven" car just isn't possible, and neither is android operated by steam and magic - no "steampunk." So, technology is going to be - mostly - recognizable as such. (I'm still debating the possibility of improvements in materials or operation in small focused way through "magic." Maybe something along the lines of what David Brin posited in The Practice Effect.

I think I'm introducing this slowly and clearly enough to keep readers from going "why don't they just" and pulling something from a different magical system. But this really helps me think about this.

Whether through a limit in the available supply of "mana" or due to the requirement for the application of human imagination and intent, sustained magical effects in, for example, a "magic driven" car just isn't possible

I would say that it can't be a limit in the available supply of mana.

Why? To me, if the mana in a given space is that easily exhausted, it doesn't make sense that it would provide the degree of interference with technology that you specify.

Human imagination and intent also has problems as the limit that prevents a magic powered car. After all, the car has a human driver to supply imagination and intent.

Yeah, I'm not doing a good job on summarizing all the elements of the magical system, likely because that's not what I was thinking about when I launched this thread. Mana is converted to magic by people through intent and imagination and, like both of those, there are human limits, capacity limits. People just can't channel enough mana to make a car work for an extended period of time. I'm thinking that magic (mana converted by a person into effects in the real world) becomes a key scarce resource that drives the economy. Still working on this.

Mana is converted to magic by people through intent and imagination and, like both of those, there are human limits, capacity limits. People just can't channel enough mana to make a car work for an extended period of time.

There's two ways to think about that kind of capacity limit and for what you want, you need to think about both.

How much mana can a person channel on an instantaneous basis. Think of it like the wires in your house. They can only handle so much electricity at a time before they melt. That's why you have fuses and or circuit breakers.

For the magic powered car, the instantaneous capacity doesn't need to be enough to run the car for an extended period. As long as the instantaneous capacity is enough to power the car for a second or two, the driver can channel mana into the car for as long as he is driving.

The second way to look at a capacity limit, is cumulative capacity over time before needing to rest/cool down.

Think of this like an engine, it produces waste heat, but you don't have an efficient way to cool it. If it
overheats it might fail catastrophically, but if you keep an eye on the heat level, you can run it for a while before you have to shut it down and let it cool off for a while before using it again.

In a realistic scenario, both type of limits probably apply.

Is the instantaneous power enough to run the car for a moment? If yes, how long could one driver keep the car running before needing to rest?

I've read a dead tree series with a somewhat similar premise. In that series, the world flops back and forth between tech and magic in waves. They have gas powered cars that run during tech, magic powered cars that run during magic and dual engine cars that run under both.

Now the magic cars don't run as well as gas powered cars. That series is set in the mid 21st century. A magic only car would run about as well as a Model T, not great compared to a late 20th century car, but better than a horse or horse drawn wagon.

A dual engine car is even worse during magic and under powered compared to a straight gas powered car during tech.

With your concept, if limit 1(instantaneous power) is enough to run a car at all), and limit 2(cumulative power) is high enough, but not too high, A magic powered car wouldn't be practical for personal transportation, but would likely exist for limited use cases like, for example, a courier/mail service where they can run one car but rotate several drivers. Kind of like a pony express kind of thing.

Thank you. Helpful thoughts, and consistent with what I've written so far. But, clarifying the concept is a boon.

I've read a dead tree series with a somewhat similar premise.

I think that is the Kate Daniels series by Ilona Andrews and, yes, fun series. I don't intend to have waves, but will have patches. Once the mana level in an area gets high enough, the god-intended effect of no explosives and no electricity takes effect and never goes back. I am currently thinking there will be a time when the town where this all starts will be something of a "Brigadoon," just always there. Am debating how to deal with knowledge of this but the not-yet-magical world.

Kind of like a pony express kind of thing.

Yes! I'm pondering something like that, although maybe more with those few magical individuals able to teleport or magically enhanced horses. The magical economy after full magical emergence is something I need to think more about. Actually, I may need to learn how to think about that! And this isn't even the main focus of the stories, but fun anyway.

Have a look at Larry Niven's The Magic Goes Away universe. He posits that magic was a limited natural resource and magicians burned out all the mana, ending their power and making magical creatures extinct.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Magic_Goes_Away

A good idea.
Pumping water out of salt affected farmland lowers the water table and allows subsequent rains to wash the salt below the crop root level. The salt can be recovered from evaporative clay pans. An analog for mana control?

Very helpful, Remus2! Thanks. The temptation is to imagine going back to the technological level before electricity, then take away gun powder and leave the world like that, but that would be a mistake. As your comments show, as magical effects manifested in a 1973 and later world, much knowledge developed in the last 150 years would be applicable and adaptations would likely be fast and furious for a while. That's the aspect where I feel way out of my depth! (I started the story more interested in the relationship dynamics that are the main focus on the magic, but this other part is interesting and I'd like to do it well!)

Your scenario requires a fundamental shift in the laws of physics to begin with. That shift is similar to the DiD universe. Everything I posted presumes our known rules of physics which is defunct in your universe. As such, my suggestion would be to just write the story and ignore the physics.

Yes, I'm going to hand wave some - no explosives, no electricity, and no attempt to reconcile this with current physical models. (I have played with the idea that advanced knowledge might result in more efficient or powerful magical results. For example, and materials scientist might be better able to enchant materials, or a trained doctor better able to heal. Not sure. Still thinking about it a bit.)

no explosives

Here's the problem. Gunpowder isn't actually an explosive.

Loose in open air it will burn very quickly, but won't explode.

To get an explosion out of it, you have to contain it in some kind of pressure vessel.

The explosion you get is not the gunpowder, but a pressure explosion when the containment vessel fails.

The same effect can be achieved with almost anything that will burn.

A gun is a pressure vessel with a built in point of failure. One end of the pressure vessel is sealed by the bullet and the bullet can move down the barrel.

There is no need for an explosive or gun powder. Pneumatics alone can produce explosive effects.

Pneumatics alone can produce explosive effects.

As long as you can generated enough pressure to rupture the containment vessel.

But here's the thing, the rupture point of the vessel is the limit on the size of the explosion you can create.

Put enough gunpowder to generate 100PSI if it all burned in a vessel that will rupture at 10PSI and 10PSI is all the explosion you will get.

The difference is irrelevant to the Boston marathon bombing victims.

Or check out some of the things the Mythbusters have done with hot water heaters.

I've performed many pneumatic and hydro test of piping systems and pressure vessels.
The clearest analog I've learned is that of a balloon. Fill it with air and pop it with a needle and it explodes. Do the same with water and it just leaks out. Even 5psi under the right conditions is enough to kill someone, which is why I mentioned the Boston bombing. The bombing part is a misnomer to begin with.

I've seen weld shops completely destroyed because someone tried to weld an air tank to a bracket for mounting it. It's a very bad idea to do anything to the pressure boundary of a vessel like that. Someone not respecting the dangers inherent with pneumatic pressure boundaries gives me the creeps. I've known people no longer in the land of the living because of careless attitudes such as that.

Here's the problem. Gunpowder isn't actually an explosive.

Again, DS, this is helpful. You're making me aware that I have to be careful about setting magic at the level of physical laws. In this magical system, it isn't. Those laws stay the same. They are just ignored when a magical effect powered by mana and shaped by imagination and intention takes effect. So, gun powder or gasoline could burn, but not explode because the god's imagination and intent didn't preclude burning, just human-induced explosions. This conversation shows me I need to be clear about that aspect of that magical system or readers will go, "Well, why can't they just..." or "If X can't happen, then why is Y allowed?"

So, gun powder or gasoline could burn, but not explode because the god's imagination and intent didn't preclude burning, just human-induced explosions.

The thing is that gunpowder and gasoline never explode, they only burn. When you get an explosion from gunpowder or gasoline, the explosion comes from over pressurizing some container to the point it ruptures.

It's like over inflating a balloon to the point that it pops without being poked.

Magic can accomplish something like that, but if you want to take the no human caused explosions seriously and be consistent about it, you need to put some thought into what does happen when you deliberately over inflate a balloon until it ruptures.

If you make in impossible to pressurize anything, that would make it difficult for people to breathe.

If you make it so that even a simple latex balloon can hold infinite pressure without rupturing, that will have other unintended consequences.

But what happens if you put a bag of holding inside a bag of holding?

The simple resolution (See BluDraygn's The Runesmith Chronicles) is that you can't put one bag of holding inside another.

"Can't" as in something bad happens, or there is some magical force which prevents it?

Can't as in the one bag of holding won't go into the pocket space of the other.

IIRC: In The Runesmith Chronicles the bags of holding are controlled by magical AI constructs. They have rules and limits that prevent one bag from containing another.

I would go simpler. You can put the one bag physically in the other, but the inner bag won't disappear into the outer bag's pocket dimension. This will block access to the outer bag's (or maybe both bag's) pocket dimension (either way) until the other bag is removed.

What happens if you turn a bag of holding inside-out?

If that doesn't cause time to stop and everything to explode at the speed of light, how about if only one side is turned inside-out, and the other side remains as normal? How about turning one bag inside-out, putting it into the other lining up the edges, then turning the pair inside-out (so the second bag is now inside-out inside the first, which is right-side out)?

Anyway, which came first, the bag of holding we're discussing, or Heinlein's Glory Road?

What happens if you turn a bag of holding inside-out?

What is a bag of holding?

The way I understand it, a bag of holding is a portal to a pocket dimension. It lets you put things into or take things out of that pocket dimension.

Worst case, turning the bag inside out temporarily (or permanently if you want to be cruel to the owner) disrupts the portal to the pocket dimension.

Nothing happens to the pocket dimension itself nor to it's current contents.

Flip a coin. AD&D was '77, Glory Road was '76, but Gygax was working on it for years prior. Also, I think you just invented the bag of holding Tesseract, which reminds me of Heinlein's 'He Built a Crooked House'.

Pam Uphoff has"bubbles" as a dimensional phenomenon. Time runs slower in a bubble, and characters can "double bubble" resulting in such a tremendous difference in the rates of elapsed time that anything in the bubble, including livid beings might as well be in stasis. In addition, bubbles are weightless and can be "stuck" to objects, including clothing. Don't need your horse? Bubble it and stick it to your shoulder (they seem to be tiny as well, though there are times they aren't -- maybe an internal inconsistency, or maybe I've just forgotten the explanation). Days, weeks, or months later, in un-bubble and ride away!

A possible solution would be to have magic instantly absorb anything as powerful as an explosion, so unconfined blackpowder would burn, but once contained and ignited, the force would be instantly absorbed by magic, thus no explosion. The same would apply to a petrol engine, etc.

Absorption could also instantly fragment the power, thus preventing anyone using the effect to harvest a lot of magical power easily.

Thee same principle should work to 'steal' electricity as soon as it is generated.

Just a thought.

:)

A possible solution would be to have magic instantly absorb anything as powerful as an explosion

Explosions aren't necessarily powerful. A balloon popping is technically an explosion.

Explosions aren't necessarily powerful. A balloon popping is technically an explosion.

A balloon popping isn't going to power a car or fire a bullet, if a sufficiently large/strong/pressurised balloon was made, then the force would be absorbed.

The technicalities are moot if any useful force is simply absorbed by magic.

Besides. Anything sufficiently advanced as to not be explained by current science is for all intents and purposes, magic.

Which means that magic can explain why any accepted scientific fact or theory is actually incorrect or only partially correct.

So, technically, you are incorrect..!! :)

Technical any explosion isn't anything else than rapid expansion of a gas cloud. Taking "rapid" out of that sentence is enough to preclude much what we do with that.

Technical any explosion isn't anything else than rapid expansion of a gas cloud.

Not true, explosions can occur without any gas expansion.

In fact the origin of 'explosion' is early 17th century: from Latin explosio(n-) 'scornful rejection', from the verb explodere. An audience could explode in anger and boo the performers until they left the stage.

Technical any explosion isn't anything else than rapid expansion of a gas cloud.

Personally I would add uncontained to that definition.

What happens in an ICE is contained from beginning to end.

I have noodled with the idea that it is a pressure limit. Not sure what that would be. And, a little leery of getting too specific. The category exclusions - no human controlled explosions or electricity - seen to work. And if humans discover some weird gaps in the definitions? "Ah, yes. The gods are crazy!"

The big thing I want is a sharp restriction on rebuilding a technological society, thus givung greater value to individual human effort, both magical and mundane.

Good points! I think I know how to handle this from a story standpoint, but will need to consider what you said as I delve further.

Basically, there is a declarative "No human controlled explosions or electricity." The characters are aware of this statement of god-level imagination and intention. Then, as mana accumulates in an area and things begin to change that are not human-driven, they begin to backdoor to that magical "law." Internal combustion engines won't run, but gasoline will still burn in the open? Hmm... One must be an explosion, but the other one isn't. We can still blow a balloon up until it pops? That must not be an explosion. Do air rifles still work? -- Not sure of my answer here. This has ramifications for other areas, such as maximun pressure for steam engines.

Basically, I want some pretty severe limits on tech for story reasons. But, the idea suggested in another comment that people would test the boundaries is absolutely correct. They would! And, I can imagine an end scene where Fate expresses admiration for that and talks about how it pissed Power off!

Internal combustion engines won't run, but gasoline will still burn in the open? Hmm... One must be an explosion, but the other one isn't.

Technically, neither is an explosion. The force that moves the piston in an ICE is exactly the same as the force that moves the pistons in a steam engine.

If you want magic to prevent an ICE from working, there is a better approach than preventing explosions (which aren't involved anyway).

An ICE has a lot of small moving parts that fit together with much tighter tolerances than a steam engine. Simply have magic jam the mechanical moving parts in some way. The valves that let air or fuel into the combustion chamber or exhaust gas out won't open (no hot expanding gas to move the piston) or won't close all the way(the gas has other escape routes and no pressure to move the piston), the pistons jam and won't move*.

Since you have this driven by divine intent, you can be very selective with it.

You can still block larger explosions driven by true explosives to make bombs not work.

You can take a similar approach with electricity. Generators jam and won't work, shutting down the power grid and blocking backup power, but static electricity and lightning (and people's nervous systems) still work normally.

Driven by divine intent, you can be very selective about what works and what doesn't, but if it becomes necessary to introduce it to the story, you have sensible and consistent explanations for what works and what doesn't.

*These are things that can happen and cause engine failures in the real world.

By logic the popped balloon, or overinflated balloon, should behave slightly differently under that magic influence. Think of it as if the rupture happened in slow motion. The end state is basically the same, but the transition is less energetic and more drawn out. The same happens when with burning products gas expansion, it is magically confined to moderate speeds precluding any shockwave.

So you probably can convert your shotgun into a crossbow. I mean, the maximum speed of bullet or pellets blown out of barrel by gentle wind is too low for most practical purposes, but accumulation of the same force in a heavy slow projectile might now be possible.

And of course, spring driven bow or crossbow still works and probably has become much safer as it can't catastrophically fail destroying itself anymore (because the speed of all high energy events is reduced).

Steam engines are much safer too, as the pressure wessels wouldn't explode but gently rupture with just a puff (it still be destroyed and deformed though).

ETA: internal combustion engine should still technically work anyway, but so poorly it not practical or you may be forced to go back to very large pistons to compensate for the loss of efficiency, and the maximum rpm may be severely limited even then.

The same with electricity. You can't completely shut it dow because we ourselves are electronic devices, but life operate in very low voltages and currents, so the way could be to limit that. At your starting date the low energies electronics was in infancy, you can see most if not all to fail by some reasonable limitations.

Do photovoltaic systems work? Probably, because you still need photosynthesis intact. Do chemical batteries work? Again, you can't reliably ban that without killing everyone, but you probably can make them weak and limited.

The problem is then what to do with natural things like static currents including lightning. Magical world without lightning could be boring, but there's little practical reason why it couldn't happen. Or alternatively, the ban covers a range, and really high energy events break try.

The problem is then what to do with natural things like static currents including lightning. Magical world without lightning could be boring, but there's little practical reason why it couldn't happen.

There is some evidence that lightning is necessary to the Earth being life sustaining. A world without lightning wouldn't just be boring, it could be sterile.

Better to attack generators than to mess with how electricity works or try to limit energy levels.

World without lightning from its inception would likely be sterile yes, the origins of life may have it as essential. But we don't retrofit the world here, we talk about current and at least initially localized changes.

There is or might be global effects lightning is essential and effective on (like wan Allen radiation belts), but if lightning stopped occurring there wouldn't necessarily be immediate short term danger to existing life functions. And the effect may as well be compensated for somehow by the magic itself.

But sure, it's much more fun to keep the lightning show intact, even if it has to glow for minutes at a time and produces no thunder -- because that's another explosion, shockwave triggered by plasma channel collapse.

The same with electricity. You can't completely shut it dow because we ourselves are electronic devices, but life operate in very low voltages and currents, so the way could be to limit that. At your starting date the low energies electronics was in infancy, you can see most if not all to fail by some reasonable limitations.

Better to alter magnetism than electricity. Without the magnets, there are no generators of any size. This can be done and still leave bioelectric generation alone.

ETA: Replace the magnetic component of electromagnetic frequency with magic. Problem solved.

Replace the magnetic component of electromagnetic frequency with magic. Problem solved.

Hm...

In the real world, a magnetic field moving across a conductor will generate an electric current, but the converse is also true, an electric current flowing through a conductor will generate a magnetic field.

Under this suggestion, if you could introduce a current into a wire (by lightning rod perhaps) would it generate mana?

Under this suggestion, if you could introduce a current into a wire (by lightning rod perhaps) would it generate mana?

If the magnetic component of EMF were replaced with magic and all else remained the same, then yes. Existing solar cells would turn into magic accumulators, as well.

No human-controlled explosions or electricity. Nature stuff is still fine - lightning, nerve impulses, volcanoes, etc.

OTOH, mining, war, and hunting all depend on explosives.

Only the modern methods require explosives. All started long before explosives were introduced.

Those skill sets have disapppeared

People still know how to pan for gold. Hobbyists still practise non-explosive methods that are no longer commercially viable yet still get results.

The machete is still a popular way to commit genocide in parts of Africa. Various military groups around the world are taught how to set non-explosive booby traps.

Bow hunting is a growing, not a dying skill. Poachers still use snares, etc. Migrating birds are still caught in nets, sometimes by those seeking to ring them.

So I don't think those skill sets can be said to have disappeared.

Once upon a time people did any of them without explosives. Those skill sets have disapppeared

They are still alive and well. Maybe not as widely practiced, but there anyway. Non-explosive mining techniques have advanced over the years, despite the advance and dominance of explosives in the field.
https://www.crackamite.com/
Someone had a poor sense of naming with that, but it works. If you want to break up some rocks etc on your property without pissing off the neighbors, that product is the way to go. There are other non-explosive agents, but that one is one I've personally used.
Getting the demolition holes dug out becomes the hard part.

Wars have been fought throughout human history. The last few hundred years ushered in the explosive era, but the only thing that exceeds the human capacity to build, is its capacity to destroy.

Hunting has been on a trend towards non-firearms means for a while now.

If you want to break up some rocks etc on your property without pissing off the neighbors,

You can do it by pissing on the rocks. Drill holes in a row, beat dried wood taps into those, and, yes, add water. How it's done since before writing.

True. However it's not very reliable as the wood must be bone dry for it to work. My father taught me that method when I was a young one, though it was only water used. Keeping the wood dry enough was not an easy task. Nor was drilling the holes with primitive tools.

Bessemer may work, but it was prone to trapping nitrogen in the steel making it brittle. Open Hearth is far more likely in this scenario so as to control the steel quality.

You're exactly right "no explosions" is a category that people can understand and apply, but it is fuzzy, and that could create some questions. But, at the level of common human understanding "explosion" and "burning" are different things which we can ordinarily distinguish. The magic may be arbitrary at times. In the end, it will function to accomplish the will of the two gods involved in bringing it into the world. The answer to "Why?" will be "the gods."

Mining is very reliant on explosives, especially open cut mines. Steel and coal would no longer be cheap as rock breaking would be by pneumatic drill and overburden removal by steam shovel.

Thanks -- I am thinking s lot of things get more expensive, leading to the need for alternatives, including magic where possible.

The most useful element in SciFi and Fantasy worlds is Handwavium. Obviously a major lode must be opened in a mine as part of the prologue.

The most useful element in SciFi and Fantasy worlds is Handwavium.

Love it! Yup. Might need the mother lode. Oh, wait. Not an incest story. Ignore that metaphor!

element in SciFi and Fantasy worlds is Handwavium.

At normal temperatures is that a liquid, solid or gas? If you can move it by waving your hand, is probably is a gas.

Handwavium is what, when, where, how, why, and sometimes who the author needs it to be. Amazing stuff. Readers mileage may vary.

Yikes! So many possibilities. Thanks

Great stuff! Thanks!

When you get complaints, just say
"Hellooo... magic isn't real, you know. That's why this is called fiction!".

Yes, but "magic" is not a good excuse to just ignore internal logical consistency.

Yes, but "magic" is not a good excuse to just ignore internal logical consistency.

Agreed. But, if the "magical law" is "no human-controlled explosions or electricity," then that is the logic I must be consistent with. If I turn it into a modification of the fundamental laws of physics rather than just a nullification of specific events, then I would have to be consistent with those modified laws, and I do NOT want to go there!

But, if the "magical law" is "no human-controlled explosions or electricity," then that is the logic I must be consistent with.

You still need to think the consequences all the way through to have any hope of being consistent.

What about small explosions? The popped balloon? Bubble gum bubbles? Popping popcorn?

You still need to think the consequences all the way through to have any hope of being consistent.

Yup. Good point. Thanks.

Electricity has a role in van der Waals forces, cohesive forces and many others. Both need to change if you plan to kill all explosions.
As said earlier, you'll need to just ignore the physics to make it work.
Or change the laws of physics.

:)

When you get complaints, just say

"Hellooo... magic isn't real, you know. That's why this is called fiction!".

Agreed! Hopefully I can set it up well enough in the stories to avoid complaints. This discussion is giving me ideas about that.

I posit magic is a powerful natural Quantum force in the multiverse, but not normally present in any quantity on earth, until something releases it / attracts it to earth where it acts like oil on water and suppresses other energetic waveforms, such as explosions and electricity.

That could be a good approach if I were willing to try and reconcile magic with physical laws. (And I say could only because my physics knowledge isn't sufficient to think through all aspects - it might be a super great approach!) However, for story reasons, I don't want to go there. I want to let magic be a limited exception to physical laws, capable of suppressing or producing effects in ways that simply do not fit with those laws. There will be no physical reason why humans can't control explosions or electricity; it's because that was the way the god Power (with an assist from the goddess Fate) shaped magic as he began shoving it into the universe.

The story reasons for this decision hinge on the fact that the suppression of technology is not the primary focus of Power's action. (Alternatively- it's not the story in my mind when I started.) The suppression of technology is the main reason Fate wasn't that unhappy that she had bee caught unprepared (a very rare event for Fate) by Power's massive re-shaping of the world. The reasons for her relative agreement with this aspect of Power's action come out in the story.

Power primarily sought to elevate the value of Power in the pantheon of human values, and he did so by magically tying it to sex. In the magical world he is creating, all sexual relations will involve magically enforced sexual slavery. As originally intended by Power, the sudden surge of magic into the world would create an apocalypse as systems failed and an opportunity for those most attuned to Power to gain ascendancy. A brutal, dystopian world would result.

Fate cannot stop this as Power built up the magic in a purpose-created alternative universe hidden from her sight and control. This is a first for the gods, catching her unaware. Instead, she creates her own temporary, purpose-specific alternative universe and sends her chosen agent, a rejuvenated old man whose life suggests his personal value structure will prioritize love and caring and family over power, back over sixty years into that alternative universe. His job is to shape magic into a more humane structure for humanity. She gives him only a little information on all of this (for reasons), to the point he doesn't even know he is going into the past and doesn't know what will happen when history returns to the moment she sends him back. The one thing she does give him is a way to add a choice option to the sexual slavery, a nuance that makes his overall task of shaping a more humane magical world possible.

The series will cover the key moments over the decades as the main character, his team, and the magical world that slowly grows around them shape the magic that they are pulling back (though they don't even know they are doing this at first). Sort of like the big bang, choices and actions and imagination (often mostly unconscious) in the early stages establish aspects of magical slavery and the use of magic in the world that then become the ways magic works in the world. Of course, like the big bang, this means that events early in the timeline carry extreme weight, so it turns out that the series may be heavily weighted toward the early months and years. At least, currently, the first four books cover only about two months, and number five is starting two months after the end of book four. I expect the time skips to grow as the series progresses, otherwise telling the whole story would be impossible for me.

Obviously, I'm more focused on choices, values, relationships, and culture than on physics and technology. There is a good (I hope) story reason for the anti-technology effects of magic, and it comes out over the course of the series, but I didn't start writing with the desire to delve into how humanity will adapt to the changes in technological solutions to the challenges of life; it's just an interesting side aspect.

So, going too far down the path of reconciling magic and pre-magic physical laws is a path I don't want to take. The physical universe will work just as it always has, except when magic overrides that. There will be at least one interesting situation I'm going to have to choose a solution for - what happens when a pressurized system fails? This isn't an human-intended result, and the failure is not controlled, i.e., initiated as an intended result, so does the anti-explosion aspect of magic apply? Could the system just magically de-pressurize in a non-destructive manner? Wouldn't that be great for system engineers? Design right up to the limits of tolerance and let magic provide the safety. That consequence alone is making me think the answer will be that destructive failure can happen, but I'm not completely sure yet.

Anyway, I appreciate all the help in this thread. I was expecting help on technology, but ended up getting even more on magic. Great stuff!

Obviously, I started writing the first book without all of this worked out. In fact, I hadn't even thought of it. The story I thought I was writing when I began is not the story that has evolved - maybe, like my characters, as a result of my personal values structure. But, now that I'm into it, I'm hooked and want to finish it, despite the interesting but sideline aspect of showing how technology and the economy will adapt to magic. (And I still haven't resolved just how apocalyptic things are going to get. I don't think the team can mitigate all of that, but...)

Apparently synapses have a mechanical back up to their electrical impulses.
https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-021-03516-0
The internal Difference Engine? Anyway, as electricity goes away people will still think, but they may be getting a bad case of reduced clock speed.
This may explain Twitter.

This is the way I am thinking.

I believe a 'writing expert' said you should research your subject thoroughly, but no more than 10% of that research should find its way into your story.

The point of which is without the 90% of unused research you won't know which 10% needs to be included.

The absolute guaranteed way to be seen as an idiot is to write about things of which you have no experience of, or have not researched.

And some authors can't make the cut. As I understand it, Jean Auel did a ton of research for her Earth's Children series, including travel to European sites, meeting with experts, etc. Much of the more in-depth and expensive research came after the success of the first books in the series. As a result, the series slowed with publication dates of 1980, 1982, 1985, 1990, 2002, and 2011. Of course, it's also possible she got hung up trying to find an ending as, to me, the last book was by far the least satisfying. I say that due to the way she handled the intersection of relationships and the spiritual beliefs and practices she gave her cave people. In addition, however, the books became more and more loaded down with descriptions of scenery and stone-age craft and living details.